Blind leading the blind

48 replies
We have a situation on this board where the real experts here and the advice they impart is often completely ignored, misunderstood or, as in one or two recent cases where someone outright refuses to waste any energy on thinking for themselves, is actually taken offence at.

Are these people doomed to failure? Just looking at some of the stuff people who have been at this for years they sell in their sig, they refuse to leave the low-brow, amatuerish, unsophisticated, snake-oil filled world of IM and IM based ''Offline Marketing'' and venture into the real world where most businesses avoid the IM style tactics and approach like the plague. They've been at this for years and their work is just as sloppy, short-sighted, non-strategic and hackneyed as when they first started. Reports from people who have actually done it, like Iamnameless's, are a complete once in a blue moon event here.

There is a massive gulf in standards and a major difference in the way companies who got their education and expertise from credible sources who operate in the real world and those who got them from their IM guru filled inbox, where they jump on the latest launch that promises them a complete step by step solution. Where they buy it mainly because the copywriter told them, ''Don't worry, even a child can do this. Everything's been done for you'' and therefore paints the picture they won't have to put much effort or thought in themselves. These smart copywriters understand their mark inside out.

They jump on the latest method, implement it ''as is'' without putting in any thought on how to improve it, or trying to put their own spin on it, or matching it or reframing it more closely with their own market, rebranding it, stacking it with other services to create a unique value proposition based on the biggest desires of their target customers so it's irresistible to them. Or attempting to use all the methods are their disposal to promote and sell it other than the one prescribed to them by the person they paid to do all their thinking for them.

All that is alien to them. They don't even realize most of the time that the product has never really even been proven to any degree in real life. They just believe the BS they've been fed and go out and make an effort. Immediate overnight riches don't happen, so they just move on the next thing.

These people look like foolish, idiotic lemmings on the outside once you see them do the same thing over and over again for years on end, to be frank about it. Or like labs rats who mindless chase the dopamine rush and avoid anything unpleasant just as instinctively. Brian Tracy likes to state, and I think this is completely true, that in business your best weapon and advantage is your thinking, and making sure that is focused in the right place. That you are replicating, studying and learning from successes, as opposed to failures, which most people do because. That you are constantly seeking feedback and adjusting and seeking improvement, innovation, efficiency and better methods and procedures to do things. And that quality of your thinking in areas like this will dictate your results.

He says alot of business people are Stimulus>Response in their business. And that top business people are Stimulus>Thought>Response.

I somehow think the lure that roped these people into the ''make boatloads of cash at home in your pyjamas in just a few hours a day'' or ''start cashing $500 dollar checks like a mad man tomorrow from desperate business owners in your area who need YOUR help'' IM world is so strong and addictive to these people, and they are still chasing this mirage, still get excited at the BS claims here in most of the copy (not even realizing they have seen the same headline and copy a thousand times just with a few details changed here and there and are failing to realize they're getting manipulated and conned), that they haven't got a real chance of ever getting something decent of the ground.

They refuse to think and learn for themselves. They refuse to stop deluding themselves and get real. They refuse to properly educate themselves from the right sources or to take responsibility for themselves.

It's incredible watching grown people act that way. I think some people are going to make it no matter what eventually, and others just aren't cut out for it, regardless of the methods.

Am I wrong?
#blind #leading
  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

    It's incredible watching grown people act that way. I think some people are going to make it no matter what eventually, and others just aren't cut out for it, regardless of the methods.

    Am I wrong?
    No. The real heavyweights will learn on their own. They don't rely on easy answers from others. They do the work. Sure, they read books..take seminars....buy info courses. But they also do the work.

    I find that there are two kinds of questions I get;
    "Hi. I bought your book. I need a sales funnel. What should I do?" Blah..blah...blah....

    But..once in a blue moon...I hear "Hi, I've tried this idea 12 times and it hasn't worked. What am I doing wrong?"

    And then I know that I have someone willing to do the work. Willing to listen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      No. The real heavyweights will learn on their own. They don't rely on easy answers from others. They do the work. Sure, they read books..take seminars....buy info courses. But they also do the work.

      I find that there are two kinds of questions I get;
      "Hi. I bought your book. I need a sales funnel. What should I do?" Blah..blah...blah....

      But..once in a blue moon...I hear "Hi, I've tried this idea 12 times and it hasn't worked. What am I doing wrong?"

      And then I know that I have someone willing to do the work. Willing to listen.
      Nice anecdote that sums up the mindset of the majority. Isn't it amazing how rare those people are? The one's that are even aware that they are going to need to put in major effort.

      They are not even willing to do things they don't want to do, but that their customers would love and happily pay them for and a result make them a success.

      I often think this place, more specifically the WSO section as well as the whole ''Make money online'' field, would never had existed had not the earliest Copywriting pioneers cottoned on to this quirk in human nature that the majority share lacking the appetite for hardwork, sacrifice and dedication, and discovered they'd sell a lot more if they pretended their product helped people bypass all that ''unpleasant'' stuff.

      Evil geniuses.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

    He says alot of business people are Stimulus>Response in their business. And that top business people are Stimulus>Thought>Response.
    I think people are in those two different states depending on the stress they are under and their ability to recognise the stress and self-manage their situation.

    Under stress people revert to Stimulus>Response (The REACTIVE mode)

    When calm (planned) the RESPONSIVE state comes into play where the thought happens.

    Several times I've noticed myself slipping into the reactive mode most notably after Sept 11 and other significant events that you would think shouldn't have the power to change the way you operate.

    With every disaster or outside stressor, I just try to shut it off and recognise that I need to stay focussed on the systems that have got my business through those times when I've been less than responsible.

    In talking to other business owners around similar issues they will confide that very often their situations are quite at risk but IF they start showing this reactive or over emotional response to staff in particular the whole business suffers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

      I think people are in those two different states depending on the stress they are under and their ability to recognise the stress and self-manage their situation.

      Under stress people revert to Stimulus>Response (The REACTIVE mode)

      When calm (planned) the RESPONSIVE state comes into play where the thought happens.

      Several times I've noticed myself slipping into the reactive mode most notably after Sept 11 and other significant events that you would think shouldn't have the power to change the way you operate.

      With every disaster or outside stressor, I just try to shut it off and recognise that I need to stay focussed on the systems that have got my business through those times when I've been less than responsible.

      In talking to other business owners around similar issues they will confide that very often their situations are quite at risk but IF they start showing this reactive or over emotional response to staff in particular the whole business suffers.

      Yes, I've always tried to mitigate in advance and build in the systems, like you mentioned, to be able to cope when things are getting full on. That kind of stress is always something necessary to take measures against.

      I remember reading Sam Carpenter's story, the author of Work the System, about how for many years his business was in state of chaos and overwhelm until he managed to not only make the realization he needed to create systems, but actually created a highly successful methodology. His description of his business sound like a nightmare, and a lot of the time he just scraped by making payroll and had to go without himself.

      Another great teacher on this subject was the late Chet Holmes. His consultancy style was just to go into businesses and have one hour-long meeting a week with them in something like sales, and come up with ways to improve and tweak on the previous weeks results of some sales initiative or other. And he says if you do the same in your business, take one hour a week to work on your marketing, sales results, customer care etc (any other performance metrics) you could rapidly and dramatically increase results over time, which he did with nearly every business he worked with, if you can get to the stage of not being at the mercy of the day to day chaos and unproductive busy work.

      If you do this, it becomes a habit of thought. When some new idea comes up you can't help but find a whole load of other ways to improve it and optimize its use.

      I notice some people don't have the creativity or foresight. They just refuse to think about what they are doing. Even when things are not hectic or stressful and pulling on all their resources in their business, they refuse to do this. To think and strategize so they can take better action and get better results. They just want, and have been conditioned to expect, everything to be done for them.

      To people who do put a lot of thought in, that kind of thinking comes naturally. They see things from you customers eyes, know what they want, know what the market is currently providing them, so every new innovation in digital marketing they come across they consider from so many different angles nearly instantly.

      Like Claude I think this kind of thing is innate in people. You either have that curiosity, willingness, drive and constant creative thinking or you don't. It's certainly seems the 80/20 rule applies here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
    The major disconnect I see here is that people who "don't like" sales, or who are afraid of selling, or don't have sales skills , are trying to run offline businesses that really really rely on sales

    They think they will find salespeople willing and ready to go out and pound out sales for them - when they truly need to do it themselves and "show" others how to do it. Sales scripts, objections, closes, sales material....it doesn't come easy

    IMHO much of "offline marketing" revolves around the ability to sell.

    Great skills - seo or web design for instance...need t be sold
    Good ideas - the 9x12 mailer for instance - still have to be sold

    IMHO experience counts...you can learn to sell...- pound phones in a telemarketing room, pound the pavement doing some biz to biz sales for an offline company (advertising, business products, printing, whatever)
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I think they need to learn marketing, prospecting as well as sales. But I think they need to learn how to create a worthwhile offering to sell before anything else. The market is too sophisticated today to get away with selling crap services to people in any real number and they won't get a look in if they try to sell the usual stuff in the usual way, because the business owner will have seen and been exposed to much better offers.

    It's very, very hard, finding that thing, and requires real mastery of all the various ways to market digitally, and how they all fit together. It's hard because so many people are offering things for them to sell, hyping it up, when really it's junk.

    Learning marketing, things like market, competitor and customer research, along with actually getting the skills and competence in the field they are going into (let's face it, most people selling marketing solutions to businesses or aspiring to do that have no idea what they are doing) is an essential step most aren't taking because they get their educate from low grade sources that don't educate them by try to sell some silly tactic or method in isolation. Once they have that they definitely need to get a suitable prospecting, lead generation and sales process in place, I agree.

    You have to be willing to learn all this stuff. Some people seem to me that they will never even cotton onto the fact that learning these things are pre-requisites to running a successful business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
    In my first trade which is as a qualified picture framer.

    When I started the perceived ideal tradesman was the early school leaver, the non-technically minded and to non-academic types. I was fortunate to come through was was in effect a Grammar school in the UK and get qualifications in Biology, Chemistry and Economics...Started out in Uni as a geologist during Thatcher's Britain.

    Took a break and headed down a trade/arts route where if you wanted to get qualified in frame making seriously it was 4-5 years of apprenticeship. Even after becoming qualified the general consensus was 10 years before you're good.

    Emigrate to Oz and the apprenticeship was 4 years.

    End up teaching the trade and writing resources to train framers at College. Time reduced to 3 years.

    Now Self-Paced learning...have had people *achieve* qualification under two years.

    Notice the pattern. People expect to become good ASAP...including the organisations and trainors now running the training.

    First domain registered now 15 years 8 months ago. - 1st time coding html was like 15 years ago after getting ripped off by the early internet sharks.

    So 15 years experience...only just starting to get good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Underground, I share your exasperation and that's why I no longer sell my services at a by-the-hour or membership site-only level. It doesn't give the person long enough exposure to get anywhere, unless they're that rare type of person who can figure things out on their own.

    I for one do not understand why people can't figure things out on their own. Nobody taught me internet marketing. I didn't get a coach or a mentor until 2 years into this business. To be fair, that was after 15 years of real world executive experience. But you don't need that...you need a desire to learn. When someone who has been on this forum twice as long as I have can't make a webpage, a header, write some copy and get a page up within an hour or two, I have to wonder what the hell they've been doing all these years (actual situation from 2013). This is a frustrating thing for me to encounter over and over...the person wanting magic results for a $7 investment. You aren't going to get that. It isn't going to happen. How you could ever believe such a thing is completely beyond me. Companies out there are paying zillions of dollars for a short term advantage in the marketplace that might last three to six months--and you think you're going to get the keys to the kingdom for $9.99??

    Sometimes, because I'm a big softee, I want to give people the opportunity to get my information for less than a 4-figure investment. Over the Christmas period I reopened my membership site-only offer. It was a mistake. WSO sales account for maybe, MAYBE 5% of my revenue and I rely on them for 0%. It's a gift from me. But the 80/20 Rule struck again: that 2% of my December revenue accounted for 99% of my anger for the month. The people I attracted were broke, and the funniest/anger-inducing one was a guy who wanted a refund because my training didn't "motivate" him. I doubt this was the real reason--he more likely just ran out of money--but it's not my job to motivate.

    If you don't have motivation, that's your problem and the reason why you aren't on the road to success.

    Successful people don't NEED to be motivated. I don't need to be motivated. That's the main symptom of why most people aren't going to make it, right there: it's a symptom of the bigger problem which is: THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES. At All.

    What Claude said about "Doing the work" is also critical. You don't learn from reading a strategy or process. You learn by using it, screwing up, forgetting a piece and making the mistake. Then it hurts a bit and you remember the pain for the rest of your life and you will NEVER make that mistake again.

    That's what unsuccessful people are unwilling to go through. That tiny bit of pain, over and over again. It scares them off so much that just the mere thought of it sends them running.

    Another symptom: all these people exclaiming "I don't know who this Paul McCartney guy is, but Kanye sure is giving him a chance at success!" "Kanye has a great ear for talent: this Paul McCartney guy is gonna go far"

    ...

    didn't even bother to google the freakin' NAME. "Spoonfeed me." If you need to be spoonfed, you don't belong running a business.

    The best we can do is put our oars in, and leave good advice around for people to find here. I am here on a purely "because I feel like it today" basis. The thing that bothers me the most is the newbie who just arrived has no idea who to watch and who to avoid. All contributors have the same value at the beginning. But those who stick with it should figure it out.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    I don't know if I can add any additional value to this thread. You guys spanked the crap out of it. So much quality information in this thread but the only people reading it are the ones that are already ahead of the game. The people that need to read this thread are suckered in by other headlines and likely won't come across this.

    I'm not sure I can say these people are clueless, dumb, or even truly uninformed.

    A thread with a video that savidge posted the other day kind of sums it up
    http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...marketing.html

    Willful ignorance.
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    • Profile picture of the author thet
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      I don't know if I can add any additional value to this thread. You guys spanked the crap out of it. So much quality information in this thread but the only people reading it are the ones that are already ahead of the game. The people that need to read this thread are suckered in by other headlines and likely won't come across this.

      I'm not sure I can say these people are clueless, dumb, or even truly uninformed.

      A thread with a video that savidge posted the other day kind of sums it up
      http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...marketing.html

      Willful ignorance.
      Speaking for myself. I am not ahead of the game. And I did have my head in my ass. Each day I get a little bit less stuck but humans are creatures of habbit full of cognitive biases which does not help in business. See Charlie Mungers great talk about this on youtube. Blindspots, we all have them. And with all the marketing that provide "easy solutions" it's hard to get to the truth and understand what truth is.

      Have you ever been fat with no clue about health and exercise? How do you get to the truth? You try dumb shit, you gain more knowledge, and then you know who to listen too. This takes time and persistance. Tears, pain, crying in bed till you get a little glimps of a better future.. you fall back and then you get back on track and make process.. A long, long journey but mentors do help. People who are deeper in the process then you and can show the way. Unfortunately, like this great thread mentions.. Even dumb people are willing to show you the way.. Which isn't the way at all.

      Even "training" could be sold as an easy solution, a quick fix. But there are none.

      With success in sales and marketing, I feel like a little less fat guy then 2 years ago who finally understands a little bit about how to tackle my challenges. Only then in career and business.

      I think the guys who matter on this forum do a great job. Just be patient. Be willing to see 9 out of 10 people drop out and never lose a pound. Focus on the guy who you do reach, where you hit a nerve that makes him work at it, smart and hard.
      Signature

      Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
      — Charlie Munger

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      • remember that saying "I was once blind, and now I see"

        Years ago I was complaining how hard it was to be a lawyer.

        college, law schools, the right schools, the right firm to start with, Exams & Licensing...

        Then I realized, It was a FILTER.

        of time, money, and as Thet say's being "patient"

        The only people who could then become lawyers, are those really committed to it.

        "Business Consultant's" are an unregulated and unlicensed "opportunity"

        do we want the government regulations? fees?

        formal school or the school of hard knocks???

        just my 2 cents, I could be wrong...usually am.

        I try to show appreciation and try to admit when I am wrong. I know the time it takes to write reply's and post.

        Kirby
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by thet View Post

        I think the guys who matter on this forum do a great job. Just be patient. Be willing to see 9 out of 10 people drop out and never lose a pound. Focus on the guy who you do reach, where you hit a nerve that makes him work at it, smart and hard.
        I've been here since the Fall of 2011. Be patient? Do you know how many people I've seen come and go? How many people who tried to set themselves up a "experts" in here and then flake out after a couple weeks? How many times I've answered the same damn question??

        If 9/10 people approach their life with this lame attitude you're describing thet, no wonder the world's in such a lousy state.

        And in the real world of selling training services, testimonials are the real currency. 9/10 people not even opening the freain' BOX or giving up after two hours and saying "It doesn't work" are not helpful. And in return, I get opened up to slander and abuse by anonymous haters who use my name to draw traffic to their sites.

        Where do I sign up??!
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        • Profile picture of the author thet
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          I've been here since the Fall of 2011. Be patient? Do you know how many people I've seen come and go? How many people who tried to set themselves up a "experts" in here and then flake out after a couple weeks? How many times I've answered the same damn question??

          If 9/10 people approach their life with this lame attitude you're describing thet, no wonder the world's in such a lousy state.

          And in the real world of selling training services, testimonials are the real currency. 9/10 people not even opening the freain' BOX or giving up after two hours and saying "It doesn't work" are not helpful. And in return, I get opened up to slander and abuse by anonymous haters who use my name to draw traffic to their sites.

          Where do I sign up??!
          you are fixating one literally one small part of what I said but I do understand your frustration. Thats why I gave the analogy on the fat unhealthy guy. I am a health junkie, my family is not and it's effecting the young ones in our family.

          Its an ongoing battle for years. However, my neighbour just told me she started with fitness and is eating healthy. My GF has become a crossfit junkie.

          You can't convince them all. And yes, I do believe you need to be patient with the people you want to coach. People dont change quickly
          Signature

          Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
          — Charlie Munger

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          • FYI
            Dan McCoy has been a member since 2007

            I think like sports, the experts have to have thick skin and patience.

            Sports coaches have to say the same thing over and over and over to college age kids and 21, 22, 23 year olds (pro)

            Jason could be like great players who make bad coaches( not that he is a poor consultant, just not happy wasting time and effort with an open forum of amateurs)

            Michael Jordan, Magic, Ken Norton - could play the game at an above average level

            and hard to see others not doing the same.

            this from a guy, who has very little patience.

            listen to my words here, not my behavior.
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            • Profile picture of the author thet
              Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

              FYI
              Dan McCoy has been a member since 2007

              I think like sports, the experts have to have thick skin and patience.

              Sports coaches have to say the same thing over and over and over to college age kids and 21, 22, 23 year olds (pro)

              Jason could be like great players who make bad coaches( not that he is a poor consultant, just not happy wasting time and effort with an open forum of amateurs)

              Michael Jordan, Magic, Ken Norton - could play the game at an above average level

              and hard to see others not doing the same.

              this from a guy, who has very little patience.

              listen to my words here, not my behavior.
              I dont have much business experience but I am not 21. What I have learned as I aged is that wisdom comes with years, but it doesn't just come.. you need to look for it.
              Wisdom = hard work. Character = hard work. It never stops.

              You know the saying, When you are going trough hell, keep going.

              Thats just partly correct, I believe. At the end, you really need to have a hard look and figure out what you should have learned. Otherwise, it will just happen again and again until you show the universe (nothing esoterical here, simply.. where we all live) you learned the lesson.

              I am sure there are 19 year olds here who are a lot "smarter" (all relative) then I was at the age of 25. It's even worse to see people who are 60 complaining about their career and how it's all bad.. blaming, giving excuses. All I am thinking there is: "Damn, you are 60 years old and you are still playing that game? You should have stopped then atleast 35 years ago". Maybe even 40 years ago.. But that's exactly the thing. Me, I have some charater traits I need to work on to get to the next step in my character building. It's hard and painful. So why not fool yourself and just stay where you at, find mediocre people so you are not doing so badly.. and use your blind spots. I understand it. I just look for the pain because I know that's where the growth is. Not to pad myself on the back. I was just super lucky here.

              I have been on the look out working at myself since I realised what a shit life I had. I got lucky there. I mean that. All the shit I went trough, was a form of luck. Because of that Anthony Robbins came. Then I read a book from Seth Godin.. And man, am I happy I found this forum. Then, you need to be ready (again hard work) to have guys telling you: "Dude, shut the **** up, you are wrong here, here and here.. think about this, this and this"

              It makes me think about boxing class. Leave your ego at the door, because otherwise you won't learn a thing + get beat up badly (because you interpret it as being beating up)

              Maybe tl;dr. Sorry. I love armchair philosophy.. Clifnote: Age doesn't equal character.
              Signature

              Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
              — Charlie Munger

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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by thet View Post

            you are fixating one literally one small part of what I said but I do understand your frustration. Thats why I gave the analogy on the fat unhealthy guy. I am a health junkie, my family is not and it's effecting the young ones in our family.

            Its an ongoing battle for years. However, my neighbour just told me she started with fitness and is eating healthy. My GF has become a crossfit junkie.

            You can't convince them all. And yes, I do believe you need to be patient with the people you want to coach. People dont change quickly
            You cant help everybody, but everyone can help someone.

            That is called a seed, if you ...
            plant enough seeds and you eventually have a forrest.
            Signature

            Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

              You cant help everybody, but everyone can help someone.

              That is called a seed, if you ...
              plant enough seeds and you eventually have a forrest.
              Well, even seeds need to be placed in an area conducive to proper growth, fertilized, receive adequate rainfall and sunshine and then not get eaten or trampled early on by man or beast.

              If it took nothing more than planting seeds, we'd all have our own forest. :-)

              Not being argumentative. I'm just sayin . . . . .

              Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    Nice thread. And it's true, there are few guides that will show the way. I remember looking for years and years for a "perfect" or "step by step" plan, membership, or WSO.

    I remember complaining that I wasn't being shown exactly what to do.

    For someone just starting out, there really isn't much better advice than to create a minimum viable product (MVP) and try to sell it to anyone you think might want it. Find out what they read and put it there. Find out where they go and meet them there.

    The MVP is simply - what is the simplest thing you can do, that someone will pay you $1 for?

    Once people have that kernel - it is only a matter of making the product better, and getting better at selling it.

    I think we could sum up 99% of the "how do I make money" threads with that simple idea.
    Signature
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    All I know is FAILURE and LOSS are great teachers. People will eventually get around to learning what they need to learn.

    There is only one rule in IM: ADAPT OR DIE.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    So many great contributions on this thread. I can see many others have put in the hours and dedication and understand what it takes.


    Like someone mentioned, unless you have that one in a million opportunity to find a genuine mentor with complete integrity and willingness to guide you until you reach success, even buying quality courses or seminars are no quick fix, no matter the calibre of the trainers. They're worth it, but they can't just be downloaded into your brain just like that and can take a good while and a lot of effort to truly understand on a deep level. You might study a week long training, spend the next few days going through the guide books and doing all the exercises, formulated your game plan, put it into action, and then you realize that's just tip of the iceberg in what you need to know. Just one of many different things you need to not only understand but be able to implement well in action.

    There's a company call themezoom that sell stuff here but are way more advanced with this Online Marketing thing than most, and teach things no-one else is. Truly in-depth, advanced stuff. They do have had a hard time conveying what they do because they like to create their own terminology and language (although they are getting much better in explaining their concepts). I spent 3-4 weeks going through their stuff when I finally got the chance, most of it without sleep, only to hear them advise that it could take 2-3 months to grasp their stuff, and that was only the entry level stuff. And they do have a lot of content and webinars in such with great detail. It's top level stuff. Expensive. And takes a while to understand. But I knew I wanted to learn it.

    One of their threads on here has a classic post on it. A guy comes on fuming, shouting bloody murder and launching a massive angry tirade at Russell Wright because he didn't have a clue what the offer was or what was being sold. I've sometimes wished they'd make it simpler, but I still pissed myself laughing at just how angry this guy got that things weren't completely dumbed down for him and how little effort he put in to trying to understand it. ''Don't make me think!'' came to mind.

    I'm not complaining, myself. I knew what it would take. I made the commitment a long time ago that if I was going to make it my profession to get results for businesses owners and manage their campaigns, that I was going to get a proper education and do what it takes to be excellent at it, and be able to do it in the real world and emulate companies I like, and that's not easy with the staff and budget, but I'm about there. But sometimes you do wish things more things would easier. Which they tend to become after you've put all the effort and hard-work. But no short-cuts exist.


    It is common that the IM world is notoriously full of it and few people ever figure out the right thing to commit to that will bring them success. I was hoping to catch one or two who might be caught up in WSO fantasy land and make them aware it will take way more than what most course sellers tell them to be successful, and they are going to need to be professional and offer something worthwhile. I'm on the fence at to whether some people can make the transition away from the fantasy land we've probably all been in before, and understand it's going to take so much more and actually resolve to pay the price, but if they've read the contributions and not acquired an understanding that more will be required of them to ever achieve their goals and ambitions, then they are probably never going to join the real world anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I have an employee who, it seems to me, had family and teachers who let him
    slide on figuring things out for himself. He can do it in a charming, charismatic
    way - if you are not around him much.

    80/20 rule definitely applies.

    Also, I wonder if it was wise to drop industrial arts courses in public schools.
    I think woodworking or auto repair, etc. taught people how to think and build
    and persevere to a solution that they can see.
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    About employees, I was reading the book Topgrading yesterday, which purports to have system for making sure you recruit the right people.

    They did a survey revealing 80% of the managers they hire turn out to be mis-hires because their hiring methods are flawed. And they said that 75% of the people promoted turn out to be underperformers, mistakes they made because, again, their methods for picking talent are flawed.

    A apt quote from the book:

    ''Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes talent.'' —Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


    Knows nothing higher than itself. I think many people are like that. They don't even know they're mediocre, in that the can't seem to conceive of anything else, not matter what you say to them.

    I can only imagine what's it's like for some of the people here who have really try to help others and only to be left exasperated and deflated.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      I can only imagine what's it's like for some of the people here who have really try to help others and only to be left exasperated and deflated.
      I cant speak for others - personally though - I have had a rather strong desire
      to stab a few people in the eyeball with a spoon.

      I know what an a-hole that makes me sound like and I'm "ok" with that.
      Signature

      Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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      • Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        I cant speak for others - personally though - I have had a rather strong desire
        to stab a few people in the eyeball with a spoon.

        I know what an a-hole that makes me sound like and I'm "ok" with that.
        a business person is 3 things :

        A salesperson,
        an accountant,
        and an Asshole.
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        I cant speak for others - personally though - I have had a rather strong desire
        to stab a few people in the eyeball with a spoon.

        I know what an a-hole that makes me sound like and I'm "ok" with that.
        Thanks for the laugh. I know the feeling. Human brains often work just like pre-programmed computers that only know how to function a certain, set way ad infinitum.

        One of the biggest programs is ''Hmmm, what you said is true, absolutely. But seems like too much hard work. There must be an easy, lazy way. I'll keep ignoring everything till I find it''.

        Just won't face reality. Admire your candour. Saying what other people secretly would like to say.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post


      Knows nothing higher than itself. I think many people are like that. They don't even know they're mediocre, in that the can't seem to conceive of anything else, not matter what you say to them.

      I can only imagine what's it's like for some of the people here who have really try to help others and only to be left exasperated and deflated.
      How true. When I am talking to someone who is thinking about starting a business or who already is starting, I have a hard time not being critical. If they want my advice, I will give it.

      Otherwise, they have to take the trip themselves. I'm just fortunate that I decided to start that trip when I was 19 and spent my 20's losing all my money in stupid ways. It was good because I didn't have much to lose and recovering only took a year or so for the biggest failure I had.

      I see people in their 40's and 50's who are risking it all and I cringe at the horror they are about to experience. They think rolling $500k from their IRA into a business is a good idea - and I watch in horror as they learn the hard lessons with money that took them decades to accumulate.

      Once you have been through it, and figured it out, you can instantly spot the flaws in the plan. You can smell failure on the approach.

      They don't even know or realize how incompetent their skills are - and there is only one way for a person to learn such a lesson most of the time.
      Signature
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

        How true. When I am talking to someone who is thinking about starting a business or who already is starting, I have a hard time not being critical. If they want my advice, I will give it.

        Otherwise, they have to take the trip themselves. I'm just fortunate that I decided to start that trip when I was 19 and spent my 20's losing all my money in stupid ways. It was good because I didn't have much to lose and recovering only took a year or so for the biggest failure I had.

        I see people in their 40's and 50's who are risking it all and I cringe at the horror they are about to experience. They think rolling $500k from their IRA into a business is a good idea - and I watch in horror as they learn the hard lessons with money that took them decades to accumulate.

        Once you have been through it, and figured it out, you can instantly spot the flaws in the plan. You can smell failure on the approach.

        They don't even know or realize how incompetent their skills are - and there is only one way for a person to learn such a lesson most of the time.
        Yeah, I can imagine you get to see many people with the mindset who are even more unfortunate for having money, as paradoxical as that sounds, because their lack of realism means they really do have better odds blowing it on a roulette table then chucking it a away on a hair-brained scheme.

        We've all been there, obviously. I see some that though that never learn and show no signs of ever waking up and improving, even though they will have crashed and burned many times by now if they've been taking action and should have learned from their mistakes.

        Moving out of the IM world and getting training, mentorship and guidance from Enterprise organizations the last 6 months or so, and taking that step after feeling that I did have a business concept I'd be happy to share with professionals who do what you do, takes things to a different level. Into the real world.

        Most people here, if they took their idea to investor and showed them their business plan, it would just not fly, so lacking in many essentials of a successful business. They're mostly just an idea cooked up by an IM product seller who creates products for a living and knows how to sell them to their target market. The need to create something that would pass muster if showed to people who know what they are on about, other they're going to fail.

        They are not real world, solid businesses. I'm lucky I got funding for more that was badly needed, and I've nearly finished building something that I will actually be proud to stand behind, can grow for years, has many ways to generate revenue sources from and something I'd enjoy doing. It's been a massive about of work building it, and of course I wish there was an easier way, but you don't find that until you've done all the grind and been through all the stress, doubt, panic attacks that you might fall flat on your face and the sleepless nights and a good few failures on the way.

        Reading your advice and the stuff you've shared in the last few weeks has really helped me grow and advance Dan. Particular with the video you shared about focus, which I wouldn't have viewed had you not recommended it.

        I've switched to the 90 minutes thing, instead of the Eugene Shwartz 33 minute thing, and now keep it to 6 hours a day of solid focus (I might increase that as I get fitter), but if I keep that rhythm, I will be able to give consistent focus for 36 hours a week, instead of doing 18 hours, getting out of sync, my health suffering and missing many days because I'm too tired or unfocused to do anything.

        It's based on Science too. The teach it in the Power of Full engagement, which I'd highly recommend to anyone in addition to watching and applying the stuff in that video. It's a brilliant way for managing your energy, productivity, health, fitness and stress levels. The authors refer to it as energy management, rather than time management, because it's about managing your energy first and foremost to get the best out of yourself.


        Last week I was really burning out and worn out. Now, I see how so much better all round things will be with good structure and organization and proper management of focus and energy on the work that matters.

        Thanks for sharing so freely on these boards.
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        • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          Yeah, I can imagine you get to see many people with the mindset who are even more unfortunate for having money, as paradoxical as that sounds, because their lack of realism means they really do have better odds blowing it on a roulette table then chucking it a away on a hair-brained scheme.

          We've all been there, obviously. I see some that though that never learn and show no signs of ever waking up and improving, even though they will have crashed and burned many times by now if they've been taking action and should have learned from their mistakes.

          Moving out of the IM world and getting training, mentorship and guidance from Enterprise organizations the last 6 months or so, and taking that step after feeling that I did have a business concept I'd be happy to share with professionals who do what you do, takes things to a different level. Into the real world.

          Most people here, if they took their idea to investor and showed them their business plan, it would just not fly, so lacking in many essentials of a successful business. They're mostly just an idea cooked up by an IM product seller who creates products for a living and knows how to sell them to their target market. The need to create something that would pass muster if showed to people who know what they are on about, other they're going to fail.

          They are not real world, solid businesses. I'm lucky I got funding for more that was badly needed, and I've nearly finished building something that I will actually be proud to stand behind, can grow for years, has many ways to generate revenue sources from and something I'd enjoy doing. It's been a massive about of work building it, and of course I wish there was an easier way, but you don't find that until you've done all the grind and been through all the stress, doubt, panic attacks that you might fall flat on your face and the sleepless nights and a good few failures on the way.

          Reading your advice and the stuff you've shared in the last few weeks has really helped me grow and advance Dan. Particular with the video you shared about focus, which I wouldn't have viewed had you not recommended it.

          I've switched to the 90 minutes thing, instead of the Eugene Shwartz 33 minute thing, and now keep it to 6 hours a day of solid focus (I might increase that as I get fitter), but if I keep that rhythm, I will be able to give consistent focus for 36 hours a week, instead of doing 18 hours, getting out of sync, my health suffering and missing many days because I'm too tired or unfocused to do anything.

          It's based on Science too. The teach it in the Power of Full engagement, which I'd highly recommend to anyone in addition to watching and applying the stuff in that video. It's a brilliant way for managing your energy, productivity, health, fitness and stress levels. The authors refer to it as energy management, rather than time management, because it's about managing your energy first and foremost to get the best out of yourself.


          Last week I was really burning out and worn out. Now, I see how so much better all round things will be with good structure and organization and proper management of focus and energy on the work that matters.

          Thanks for sharing so freely on these boards.
          I'm really glad I could be a small part of what you are doing!

          I know about sleepless nights. Hell, I had one last night. Took me three hours to calm down because right now, I am on the biggest climb of my business life. I will win it, and things will be what I want them to be.

          But man, when you have it laid all on the line again and my family needs this to work right again - well....the heart can skip a few beats sometimes when you lay down at night! I wouldn't have it any other way. I simply love when it is time to go all in.

          Thanks for the book recommendation - I just downloaded it!
          Signature
          Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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          • Profile picture of the author Underground
            Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

            I'm really glad I could be a small part of what you are doing!

            I know about sleepless nights. Hell, I had one last night. Took me three hours to calm down because right now, I am on the biggest climb of my business life. I will win it, and things will be what I want them to be.

            But man, when you have it laid all on the line again and my family needs this to work right again - well....the heart can skip a few beats sometimes when you lay down at night! I wouldn't have it any other way. I simply love when it is time to go all in.

            Thanks for the book recommendation - I just downloaded it!
            In exactly the same place as me then. I've gone so long and sacrificed so much and stuck to investing wisely and building the right infrastructure for long term success that I've put most other stuff on hold for a long time. I'm in exactly the same place.

            I had to do two sleepless nights at the start of the week just to get tired enough to fall asleep without being bothered and kept by racing thoughts and fear, and now I'm getting up and 4.30 for a run (which I've started to do again this week), then getting my work done and putting the hours. The fear and stress is gone and I'm getting back into peak performance and can't wait to relaunch my venture.

            When it's on top like that and you're battling those things and you know you have to produce, it brings the best out of me too.

            I will ensure this time I make this a new habit. Much better then staying up all night and working round the clock yet making relatively slow progress and lacking the energy or mental stamina to do what you need to.

            Hope you get a lot out of the book. I have the audio version I'd be happy to share if you wanted it?
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            • Profile picture of the author thet
              Originally Posted by Underground View Post

              In exactly the same place as me then. I've gone so long and sacrificed so much and stuck to investing wisely and building the right infrastructure for long term success that I've put most other stuff on hold for a long time. I'm in exactly the same place.

              I had to do two sleepless nights at the start of the week just to get tired enough to fall asleep without being bothered and kept by racing thoughts and fear, and now I'm getting up and 4.30 for a run (which I've started to do again this week), then getting my work done and putting the hours. The fear and stress is gone and I'm getting back into peak performance and can't wait to relaunch my venture.

              When it's on top like that and you're battling those things and you know you have to produce, it brings the best out of me too.

              I will ensure this time I make this a new habit. Much better then staying up all night and working round the clock yet making relatively slow progress and lacking the energy or mental stamina to do what you need to.

              Hope you get a lot out of the book. I have the audio version I'd be happy to share if you wanted it?
              I have been getting up since monday at 5 on advice from Dan. Works wonders.
              I have done all my routines I would normally spread troughout the day whenever i (didnt) feel like it, now I have it at a set time and go to work already sharp in mind.

              GOOD luck u both.
              Signature

              Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
              — Charlie Munger

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              • Profile picture of the author Underground
                Originally Posted by thet View Post

                I have been getting up since monday at 5 on advice from Dan. Works wonders.
                I have done all my routines I would normally spread troughout the day whenever i (didnt) feel like it, now I have it at a set time and go to work already sharp in mind.

                GOOD luck u both.
                Wow, same for you. I'll be going for 5 too, 4-430's a too early but I just work up at that time.

                It's great to get up early and do a full day and can the relax and recoup and do other things.

                Thanks for the good wishes. Appreciated.
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                • Profile picture of the author thet
                  Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                  Wow, same for you. I'll be going for 5 too, 4-430's a too early but I just work up at that time.

                  It's great to get up early and do a full day and can the relax and recoup and do other things.

                  Thanks for the good wishes. Appreciated.
                  Yes. I still want to get some productive routines in the evening. But, my duties I already did. So if I feel like "recovering", it's okay to do.
                  But,
                  i don't need that much recovery, I think. I only work 45-46 hours a week. I could do some things in the evening (besides working out and reading)
                  Signature

                  Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
                  — Charlie Munger

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                  • Exercise and Naplolean Hill's contemporary W.Clement Stone.

                    He would sell insurance to business owners, on the road.

                    Am's - work
                    Lunchtime - back to motel for a nap
                    (recovered from the Am's rejections, get re-energized, mindset of a "new day")

                    Exercise - you recover and build muscle from rest, not during the workout. Power Naps!!!

                    Aft's - start of 2nd day

                    That's productivity, Jason's Belief, Claude's work hard, and Underground's Opening Statement

                    He (W.C. Stone) wasn't blind. He built Combined Insurance Company.

                    W. Clement Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    "Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance."


                    I'm an exercise addict. Been following "2 a days" for years

                    5 am! that's sleeping in for me!!!
                    just poking you guy's. good job.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
                      How awesome that you mention W Clement Stone, he mentored my father who worked for Combined Insurance company.

                      My father then went on to earn the companies highest sales award and also taught me how to sell.

                      By the way, the nap thing was a daily occurrence when I was actively selling in the field, I can contribute the naps to a big part of my sales success.

                      Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

                      Exercise and Naplolean Hill's contemporary W.Clement Stone.

                      He would sell insurance to business owners, on the road.

                      Am's - work
                      Lunchtime - back to motel for a nap
                      (recovered from the Am's rejections, get re-energized, mindset of a "new day")

                      Exercise - you recover and build muscle from rest, not during the workout. Power Naps!!!

                      Aft's - start of 2nd day

                      That's productivity, Jason's Belief, Claude's work hard, and Underground's Opening Statement

                      He (W.C. Stone) wasn't blind. He built Combined Insurance Company.

                      W. Clement Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      "Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance."


                      I'm an exercise addict. Been following "2 a days" for years

                      5 am! that's sleeping in for me!!!
                      just poking you guy's. good job.
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                      • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
                        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                        Wow, same for you. I'll be going for 5 too, 4-430's a too early but I just work up at that time.

                        It's great to get up early and do a full day and can the relax and recoup and do other things.

                        Thanks for the good wishes. Appreciated.
                        Originally Posted by thet View Post

                        I have been getting up since monday at 5 on advice from Dan. Works wonders.
                        I have done all my routines I would normally spread troughout the day whenever i (didnt) feel like it, now I have it at a set time and go to work already sharp in mind.

                        GOOD luck u both.
                        Just be ready, your getting up early will feel great for awhile, then you will start to lose discipline.

                        For me, I have been able to keep it going by having some things that I MUST get done before I can start working. These are non-optional morning activities that I love to do - namely meditation and working out.

                        It's hard to build a habit when you are losing discipline - so take the opportunity now to build morning habits that will keep you motivated to get up early. If you are just getting up to do normal stuff - you will burn out and start sleeping in a few more minutes each day.
                        Signature
                        Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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                        • try to focus on "runner's high"

                          Runner's High: Is It for Real?

                          some get it, some don't
                          but there is, for everyone, a neuro-chemical response in your brain.

                          I'm an addict, getting high almost every day.

                          telling me it will get old, is thinking a crack addict, won't wake up at 2 am

                          for a free dose.

                          p.s. - speaking of dealing drugs.

                          if I was a trainer - give me 21 days, 3-5 workouts each week, with 10 minutes of cardio (the heart IS the most important muscle).

                          sleep better, more energy, relax better, etc.., more benefits I can list here....you Will feel the effects.

                          try it warriors
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  • Profile picture of the author thet
    Man, what a coincidence.

    I just saw a question answered by Elon Musk (you should know him, if you don't, look him up to be convinced about the power of human capability)

    He answers a question about how he can learn so fast, and I think it's related to this thread. Where people are constantly hopping between everything and nothing.

    I think most people can learn a lot more than they think they can. They sell themselves short without trying.

    One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree — make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to.
    ~ Elon Musk
    Signature

    Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
    — Charlie Munger

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  • Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is pretty much the definition of insanity.

    In life and in IM, people just want the easiest, laziest way to do something without any extra thought or effort. Those who learn will succeed and those who refuse to adapt will fail.

    Not everyone is cut out for this business. The best have intuition and the worst need someone to hold their hand every step of the way.

    But no matter how bad you do something, with incredible persistence, even the worst tactics will eventually succeed. Or in layman's terms, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while."
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    • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
      Originally Posted by ProPitchingMarketer View Post

      The best have intuition and the worst need someone to hold their hand every step of the way.
      This is not an either/or proposition.

      Everyone starts at the same place needing some hand holding at some point in their lives or careers. Every step prepares us for the next step. We all came out naked and wet behind the ears.

      Intuition isn't some mystical force - it is developed with time and practice. It can take a lot longer for some than for others because of the quality of the info they are feeding themselves along the way.

      This is a continuum - we can only become the best after many hours of dedicated practice.

      It is completely up to the individual. We are not stuck.
      Signature
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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      • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
        Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

        This is a continuum - we can only become the best after many hours of dedicated practice.

        It is completely up to the individual. We are not stuck.
        I'd like to take this further to change best for better.

        Several times in my life I've been fortunate to be a world record holder and thus the best in the world.

        In business the aim has always been to be the best.

        Often setting goals that are extreme and almost unbelievable but somehow those goals get reached and surpassed...never on schedule...but you get there.

        Best is a bad position to be in. Not for the euphoria it delivers or the other success and influence it brings but for the strange psychological twist that it can play on yourself.

        It is a bit like when you get to the top you've only got one way to go and that's down.

        The biggest challenge is in setting continuous goals and recognising that achieving your goals is only a step to the next phase in your journey.

        I keep thinking about the circles of knowledge and the circle we are all in of what we know and how we are aiming to expand our knowledge to learn what we don''t know. Yet the individual who is really on the road to true success starts to seek to discover what they don't' know they don't know. Those illusive things that as you transition from phase to phase you gain new enlightenment that fires up the next spurt of enthusiasm.

        On hand holding...when younger I didn't recognise those people that were really holding my hand. So many mentors from all walks of life who encouraged, funded, had belief in me.

        I was too busy "knowing it all" to recognise these people were moulding and guiding me towards success.

        I'd still say success is a fleeting moment and BEST is something to aspire to with the warning that once you are the best you either better start training your prodigy but more importantly recognise that you not really the best but merely this year's trophy holder and next year you've got to line up at the starting blocks again.

        True success is absolutely joyful when shared with people who have helped you get there.

        Although I've only really been on the forum a limited time I can tell who's got their hands out freely sharing nuggets that the blind think are just fools gold.

        Thanks to the contributors that really make it worthwhile to engage in this space.
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        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

          I'd like to take this further to change best for better.

          Several times in my life I've been fortunate to be a world record holder and thus the best in the world.

          In business the aim has always been to be the best.

          Often setting goals that are extreme and almost unbelievable but somehow those goals get reached and surpassed...never on schedule...but you get there.

          Best is a bad position to be in. Not for the euphoria it delivers or the other success and influence it brings but for the strange psychological twist that it can play on yourself.

          It is a bit like when you get to the top you've only got one way to go and that's down.

          The biggest challenge is in setting continuous goals and recognising that achieving your goals is only a step to the next phase in your journey.

          I keep thinking about the circles of knowledge and the circle we are all in of what we know and how we are aiming to expand our knowledge to learn what we don''t know. Yet the individual who is really on the road to true success starts to seek to discover what they don't' know they don't know. Those illusive things that as you transition from phase to phase you gain new enlightenment that fires up the next spurt of enthusiasm.

          On hand holding...when younger I didn't recognise those people that were really holding my hand. So many mentors from all walks of life who encouraged, funded, had belief in me.

          I was too busy "knowing it all" to recognise these people were moulding and guiding me towards success.

          I'd still say success is a fleeting moment and BEST is something to aspire to with the warning that once you are the best you either better start training your prodigy but more importantly recognise that you not really the best but merely this year's trophy holder and next year you've got to line up at the starting blocks again.

          True success is absolutely joyful when shared with people who have helped you get there.

          Although I've only really been on the forum a limited time I can tell who's got their hands out freely sharing nuggets that the blind think are just fools gold.

          Thanks to the contributors that really make it worthwhile to engage in this space.
          Thank you for your contributions. I've only recently seen your posts and they are golden.

          Your comments above reminded me of the links below (I give credit to Deming for at least indirectly
          starting Kaizen though. Oddly fascinating that pretty much the manufacturer's would not listen to
          him in the USA until after his successes in Japan.)

          Deming's definition of marketing is very interesting.
          "2.Marketing is not sales. It is the science of knowing what repeat customers think of a product, as well as
          whether, and why, they will buy it again."

          W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          What is Kaizen | Definition of KAIZEN | Kaizen Meaning

          Dan
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          "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    This thread is so full of awesomeness there's only one thing I can add!

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  • Profile picture of the author thet
    Power of full engagement is an awesome book.

    And DAN, is the man. I dont know how, but indeed. In the last two weeks he simply made me grow as a business man. It's amazing.
    I wasnt really into this forum but some people make me come here often to read and learn. Dan, Iam, bizgrow, ken, kirby.. and some more.. Man. Very happy to have those in my 'tribe' (since your success is also depended on the people you hang out with and I sort of hang out with you guys )
    Signature

    Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
    — Charlie Munger

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Chamomile Tea for those nights you can't sleep.
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    haven't read the posts, but for me, too many people aren't thinking of how to run their business.

    Do what youre good at, pay others to do the things youre not good at , do NOT NOT NOT use your own time to try to learn or do things youre not good at, .
    You will never get more time, ever, that hour, its gone forever, don't waste it learning something you don't wanna do when you could have paid someone to do it for you and made more money by doing what you do like and are good at.

    Don't DIY but do GID (get it done)

    a loser pays time to save money, and winner pays money to save time, you can always make more money, lose £20k you can get it back and more, but those 5 hours, theyre gone forever, youll never get them back
    Signature

    Mike

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    • the blind leading the blind?

      there's a sucker born every minute?

      most people are lazy and/or want an easier solution?

      Yes. Yes. and Yes.

      some biz. people try to really help their customers, clients, or patients.

      some biz. people are in the business of seperating people from their money.

      some "biz. people", just look to steal (scam) money from anyone they can.

      selling, marketing, planting seeds, dealing with online forums,
      putting up with other human beings, etc..,....

      all a #'s game.

      as Rocky Balboa said - "taking the hits ,... that's how winning is done"

      my 2015 , going Buddha on it

      expressing the downsides about it - that's how "whining" is done

      no offense intended to any members, but feel free to beat me up. I'll try to handle it.

      (I am not a very good writer, criticism is valued)

      my 2 cents - current thread reply's on how good(some threads) are, seem to point to

      this sub-forum improving.

      but I could be wrong. usually am.

      p.s. - I signed on to this forum thinking it was a watercooler in a sales dept. and still do.
      I try to be positive and cheerlead for other S & M 'rs.
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      • Profile picture of the author thet
        Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

        but I could be wrong. usually am.
        Stop saying this, a lot of the time you have a point
        Signature

        Recognize reality even when you don't like it - especially when you don't like it.
        — Charlie Munger

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        • Originally Posted by thet View Post

          Stop saying this, a lot of the time you have a point
          yes sir. will do.

          appreciate you feedback
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