Don't talk about yourself, talk about WIIFM

48 replies
I know there are many instances where this is true and vital.


But I've never seen high-end publications eschew talking about themselves and communicating how great they are (or think they are) and not even bothering make an appeal.


The copy is different. It does more describe their own product and make it seem appealing and does use more sophisticated language.

But I rarely ever see conventional marketers and copywriters making an exception about the advice of making it all about them. David Ogilvy and few others, yes. But not many. They mostly talk about it anathema to the correct way of doing things.


Perhaps copywriters who appeal to highly aspirational and affluent people know that they think differently and look for that self-assurance and that non-needy, understated, non-sensationalist tone. They want that self-indulgence from brands. And the ad people know it's different at that level.


Like in the UK, most supermarkets are running ads about how you can save 20p on a pack of sausages compared to rivals, or other minuscule, trivial savings. This is how most copy is taught these days. Try to appeal to the most base emotions. And it works obviously for that market.

There's a couple of higher-end, middle class supermarkets in the UK, but the most well-known one is Marks and Spencers.

They've been running a series of ads over the years, along these lines.



It makes no direct appeals, doesn't give an explicit WIIFM. I guess it inherently contains that by creating desire and telling everyone how great it is, but without any of the usual coopywriting formulas like problem, solution, objections, guarantees. Nothing that begs for a sale. Not direct emotional appeals. In written form there are no short sentences so a 5 year old can read them.

But it creates desire. Makes you think you're the one with the privilege if you buy their stuff.

I think I may just use this style of copy and advertising in everything I do instead of saving it only for affluents or professionals.


Does any have any good sources of info on copywriting to rich, accomplished, aspirant people or any feedback to share of making a switch in their approach where they positioned themselves to be the hunted and not the hunters, so to speak, and what difference it made?
#talk #wiifm
  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    Yes you can engineer the privilege, superiority
    and exclusivity.

    I totally see how you can do it to attract advertisers
    to your publication.

    But certainly not by what you've done in the past
    according to what you said in the other thread.

    Plus it can be done in just in a few minutes over
    the phone in the first contact with most closing
    on that first call.

    Best,
    Doctor E. Vile
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    How would I do that Ewan. That is obviously the holy grail. I'm not doing meetings and doing the whole cat and mouse game and long proposals to teams and committees of decision makers like most media sales training advocates.

    I just want to be contacting as many of the right people are possible, getting the proposition in front of them, giving them the details and getting a yes or no.

    I'd love to hear how I can do that and what you suggest.

    Also, what things did I mention on the other thread that would be counter productive?

    Thanks Ewan.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      How would I do that Ewan. .
      go back and re-read - what you want him to tell you right now
      ... he pretty much did to you, much the same way you will want to do it.

      He walked you right down a path ... and if this wasn't the warrior forum
      you would be hooked and ready to be closed.

      If this was a phone and you were a prospect - this is the moment
      I would tell you to get your card and then I would just stop talking.


      ---
      ewen - props mate, well done.
      Signature

      Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        go back and re-read - what you want him to tell you right now
        ... he pretty much did to you, much the same way you will want to do it.

        He walked you right down a path ... and if this wasn't the warrior forum
        you would be hooked and ready to be closed.

        If this was a phone and you were a prospect - this is the moment
        I would tell you to get your card and then I would just stop talking.


        ---
        ewen - props mate, well done.

        I marvelled at that same masterful thing, recognizing and admiring how it amplified my curiosity at the possibility of achieving something highly desirable to me has been since I read the post.

        I actually wrote a different thread before this but deleted it, musing about whether traditional sales was actually more of a retardant or hindrance for people when it comes to buying. I know for certain it is now, the way it's usually taught.

        Watching some media sales videos, their process would be one I'd only want to endure if I was desperate and there was no alternative.


        Some exec, chasing me, giving me all the spiel, pretending to be interested in me, my business, solving my problems, getting meetings, follows up, having to then consult with collegues. Who wants to be party to that?

        From anyone who has ever made sense to me, know's what they are doing, are successful, and everything I've done myself, is just so much more streamlined and straight-forward than that. Something very easy to forget and lose sight off.

        It's always been my understanding that it's better just to check for interest on a strong proposition that you know is highly desirable to someone and let them show you how keen they. If they want it, then it's a formality. And actually Ewan's tipping point thread made that hunch a strong conviction.

        But I'm no expert, and lack the experience of selling to higher tiers. And so to see Ewan, and other experts here, demonstrate, exemplify, and corroborate that, it's beyond helpful to my current predicament.

        I was on the verge of making it way too complicated because of I had the opposite belief that selling to affluent, higher-end people would require a lot of work on each account.

        It's infact the opposite. I would not be able to sell more by playing the usual media sales game, 10 different touches, multiple meetings, lengthy presentations and proposals, multiple DM's, etc.

        Ewan just gave me a masterful, unforgettable, first-hand lesson what's like to find someone at their tipping point and how simple things are and should be when you have them there.

        I perhaps wouldn't have fully noticed that for a long time had you not pointed it out Ken. Thanks for your input.

        This is the reason I put Ewan's Tipping Point on a par with the other truly great and most incisive marketing lesson I've ever seen, meclabs Value Proposition course.


        I can see how it's possible to contact a person at their tipping point, like I was, with the strongest value proposition you can get, which opening and closing high-paying, affluent clients who won't flinch at a premium price is in my case, to open and close there and then. Or know you have a buyer as long as the rest of the small details are non-problematic.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        go back and re-read - what you want him to tell you right now
        ... he pretty much did to you, much the same way you will want to do it.

        He walked you right down a path ... and if this wasn't the warrior forum
        you would be hooked and ready to be closed.

        If this was a phone and you were a prospect - this is the moment
        I would tell you to get your card and then I would just stop talking.


        ---
        ewen - props mate, well done.
        Thanks Ken.

        I didn't use exusitivity, time constraint,
        asking for the money plus some little extras
        which flame the desire if I wrote and trained
        him to use a script to sell is advertising space.

        Best,
        Doctor E. Vile
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        go back and re-read - what you want him to tell you right now
        ... he pretty much did to you, much the same way you will want to do it.

        He walked you right down a path ... and if this wasn't the warrior forum
        you would be hooked and ready to be closed.

        If this was a phone and you were a prospect - this is the moment
        I would tell you to get your card and then I would just stop talking.


        ---
        ewen - props mate, well done.

        Lol. You are brilliant too my friend. Indeed. Indeed. This is how its done. Not that Ewan is doing that in this case, deliberately anyway. I think it may just be natural for him by now.


        Bravo!
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Just to point out I didn't think that was all their was to it Ewan.

    Did I get it right though in my assessment that part of the strategy would be finding people at their tipping point, basing the proposal/opener on offering them what the next logical step, or solution or benefit is to addressing their tipping point and waiting for the green light to go or just moving on if there is absolutely no desire there?

    I don't want it to appear that I think I already got the answers and know how to go about things and was presuming that was all there was to it. I just know I got a lesson in just how straight-forward and efficient things can and should be when calling on someone if you're correctly identified their tipping point. Get right to the heart of the matter, rather than run sales routines that never penetrate and just waste trying to figure out their needs and all that. Or like me, thinking it best to send info and prolong things when it's not necessary and would spurn the opportunity of striking while the iron was hot and when ideal to ask for the money.

    For a long time I vehemently argued against seeking one call closes, but lately I've completely changed that view.

    So I'm still just a captivated to find out more as when you first offered.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post


      So I'm still just a captivated to find out more as when you first offered.
      By setting up the exclusiveness, the time constraint, then it becomes
      an invitation.

      The nature of a invitation is that there is built in
      appeal and a decision is required on the spot.

      That's how to get the outcome you want, fast.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      I think this conversation above and beyond the many other on the subject can sustain the interjection of the cold call concept of reaching for the "Lay Down" sale. The reality is in the context of this conversation.. you are not seeking the "Lay Down" you are reaching someone at their "Tipping Point".

      As mentioned in another thread that you seek those that are already spending in the method you are selling.. ( IE look at other Mags and newspapers and want ads etc. ) Your contact takes on a slightly different dynamic. They have already crossed the Tipping Point.. Value interjection with time restraint and exclusiveness becomes a very powerful motivator. You are then looking at Meclabs conversion equation with Motivation and value in place.. it is a matter of incentive, friction and anxiety at that point. basically the sale is 70% there, before you even get started!
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      Success is an ACT not an idea
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        I think this conversation above and beyond the many other on the subject can sustain the interjection of the cold call concept of reaching for the "Lay Down" sale. The reality is in the context of this conversation.. you are not seeking the "Lay Down" you are reaching someone at their "Tipping Point".

        As mentioned in another thread that you seek those that are already spending in the method you are selling.. ( IE look at other Mags and newspapers and want ads etc. ) Your contact takes on a slightly different dynamic. They have already crossed the Tipping Point.. Value interjection with time restraint and exclusiveness becomes a very powerful motivator. You are then looking at Meclabs conversion equation with Motivation and value in place.. it is a matter of incentive, friction and anxiety at that point. basically the sale is 70% there, before you even get started!
        That's an important distinction. I'll have already identified people I think are a tipping point where they'd be very interested in what I offer, rather than phoning a list of people looking for the lay-downs who would fit the bill.

        I'll have separated the prospecting from the sales, and will be trying to line up at least one to 2 hundred solid chances to seek to get the sale there and then with the person that can authorize the order.

        I'll have a strategy to accommodate a prospect who's interested but won't give out on the first date.

        Two things are unclear that and I'd love to get Ewan's and others take on them if possible.

        One is averages. What proportion of interested people will ok a payment of 4-5k there and then. Or by closing and asking for the payment, do you mean giving them full details, price and asking them if they want to buy and getting a yes answer but obviously then based on looking over stuff, seeing more info, contracts and agreement?

        I somehow always have associated with asking someone to go get their credit and pay 1000's there and then after talking to them for a few minutes, and I'd be amazed, but delighted, if that is standard practise and common, but I doubt that is what is meant.

        2. Pre-call research to find the right people. I usually like to search linked on for owners and find those with their direct email or even mobile in some cases, to avoid all the wading through all the other stuff (they made that option premium now).

        I know though that many of the ads in the magazines will have been placed there by media buyers, brand reps or publicists etc some of these bigger companies have hired. Or from heads of departments.

        If I pitched these people directly and sought the sale there and then, do these types have permission to pull the trigger?
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I was going along the lines of invitation and time-constraints and exclusivity in them being the only one to have certain spots or ad formats in their category in the mag.

    Even going for smaller businesses I would have told them about that time-sensitive exclusive deal that they needed to act on, but the invitation was to be sent material about it, not to seek the close. Just because of a misguided belief I've had for a while about the amount of people willing to be closed and give you large sums of money being so small, regardless who much they want they to what I offer.

    For bigger firms, I would have been even less inclined to make the close, thinking that if I'm asking 4-5 k for a double spread in a brand new magazine putting their first edition together it would require a longer buying, deliberation and evaluation process. I had the same preconceptions as most who aren't in the affluence bracket trying to sell to that bracket, but that's changing rapidly.

    Those apprehensions are gone. My predicament is that I have a small amount of capital left and have identified some experienced sales reps who have worked at all levels, big and small, and I'll be paying them for a certain amount of calls made to begin with.

    I need to identify the right targets, make contact with the right people in the departments, and line up the chance to call them to pass on to the sales guy to close as advocated in this thread.

    So my question is, if after finding the right people to fit the bill, getting the right people to speak to, getting response to and getting the chance to make the sales call, I should outline the invitation, get interest and make sure that's something they want and as soon as I get the affirmative, I should obviously ask for the money instead of sending info, and have a good chance of getting it there and then, or at least agreement, provided there's a match and they want to go with the idea.

    Would it be best to try to pre-identify owners, rather than people who run the ad department, etc, to be able to more quickly get a decision there and then. I've really never sold to corporates, but know you have done exceptionally well. Would heads of department be able to give the OK to putting pen to paper?

    I'm going to attempt to close a few 4-5k double spreads next week. to get the much needed investment capital I need for stability to get others on board and make things run more smoothly. I like to aim at setting up at least 1-200 chances to pitch people and make the invitation and go for the close right there and then.

    Do you think that will be enough, with a strong pitch to achieve the bare minimum?
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post


      Those apprehensions are gone. My predicament is that I have a small amount of capital left and have identified some experienced sales reps who have worked at all levels, big and small, and I'll be paying them for a certain amount of calls made to begin with.

      I'm going to attempt to close a few 4-5k double spreads next week. to get the much needed investment capital I need for stability to get others on board and make things run more smoothly. I like to aim at setting up at least 1-200 chances to pitch people and make the invitation and go for the close right there and then.

      Do you think that will be enough, with a strong pitch to achieve the bare minimum?
      I have grave fears you won't be able to pull this off.

      You keep coming back with questions shows a lack of certainty,
      which is understandable because you haven't created a phone call structure
      which has a high level of exclusivity and a sophisticated time constraint.

      Me thinks you should get someone in to
      set this up for you.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I won't be trying to pull it off myself. I know I can't. It's why I'll hire a pro to make the sales calls. I know dealing with high level people in this scenario requires someone completely self-assured. I'm not a pro salesmen and it would be foolish to try to operate at that level myself.

    I may be seeming like a complete wet behind the ears newbie when seeking information because it's new, but execution will be different and far more decisive. I'm just conscious that I've held a lot of preconceptions before that made me a bit to certain on things I shouldn't have been. Plus you have far more experience and expertise.


    The only thing I was apprehensive was whether the close meant ok, that will be 5k please, and seeking it there and then. Not in seeking a yes or no.

    It just actually dawned on me how powerful this method is and it feels right to just get into action with boldness and confidence. I had the idea of asking for a down payment to secure it rather that asking them to go the whole hog.

    And the other thing I was unclear about was just what kind of authorization heads of departments or outsourced media buying have, because they'll surely be handling accounts.

    Is there anything other than the uncertainty you picked up on, which obviously wouldn't work, that makes you think it won't work in my situation.

    You're an expert who has closed big corporates with cold calls, and someone I respect as being for real. I'm not an expert. I did have similar ideas on how to sell the stuff, and there were a lot of parallels, and there were a couple of things I was uncertain about that made me seek clarity on.

    I've sold with exclusivity and time constraints before. With the right structure and pitch, carried out properly, you'd suggest closing and seeking full payment on the first call?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Can you define in just a few lines what you are selling exactly, Underground?


      Bullets.


      And who you are selling it to.


      I'm sure this is simple.


      Thanks.

      I'll be selling space in a local magazine that goes to over 28,000 homes and businesses in some of London's richest postcodes in about a month or 8 weeks time, and monthly after that. A general interest magazine with content on property, careers, business, education, shopping, fashion, media, tech, culture, professional services, home and garden, etc.

      1/2 page, 1 page, 2 page, 4 page slots.

      The formats are:

      * Ads
      * Advertorials
      * Editorial pieces/sponsored features.
      * Expert Advice. These are basically informative articles or blog posts in magazine format.
      * Interview features.

      I'll be selling mainly ad space next week to begin with.


      I'll be targeting affluent mid to corporate, or very successful and financially secure small businesses and individuals in these categories:

      High-end boutiques
      Luxury furniture stores
      Estate agents
      Recruitment firms
      Lawyers
      Financial advisors
      Architects
      Accountants
      Hedge funds
      Medical professionals
      High achieving professionals
      Luxury Kitchens
      Constructing


      With anything but the ads I know I can reference content they have, acknowledge their skills and expertise, tell them we'd like to feature them, who are our audience and other distribution, how much it would cost, how they're the only one in their category who will get that spot, put time constraints on it and seek to close with a deposit taken.

      The ads I'm thinking of the same kind of approach, but like Ewan said, I need to get expert advice on how to structure it.

      My goal next week is to contact all the businesses I see advertising in local mags, try to get to speak to and pitch 1-200 hundred and one call close a few on double spreads in prime slots in the mag for 4-5 k.

      I don't know if that's realistic or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Okay, Im catching up now...sorry.


    What is the reason they should buy now?


    What kind of special deal do they get for buying on a presell? Some kind of lifetime grandfather price?


    The value is clearly there if it goes out to 28000 rich homes... Are these homes of people who opted in?


    What are competitors in your space charging for ad space of this nature? That's what your prospects will be comparing the value to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Okay, Im catching up now...sorry.
      NP. Thanks for contributing.


      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What is the reason they should buy now?
      I was going to convey the fact it was a one time special offer because we have a certain cut off date before publishing, includes free digital, mobile and social distribution and inclusion in our online advertising campaigns, plus free membership to all our coming sites that will be launching in the next few months. But those things may seem like bloat and overkill that does nothing to advance the sale and can be dropped. The one-time offer creating a fear or loss if they were interested is the primary thing.


      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What kind of special deal do they get for buying on a presell? Some kind of lifetime grandfather price?
      It will be a discounted price. The rates others similar mags that are far more established, target the same market and have roughly the same distribution is over 10k. But I know rates cards are just best case scenario prices.

      The special deal is more they get 360 marketing. In print and digital. I have a promotional plan for building the reader/subscriber base that includes nearly ever method of digital marketing. Content syndication. Mobile and other devices, apps, social media, email blasts,
      and seo when my network of sites are ready. Plus with every purchase their content, in the case of sponsored features, interviews and content advertising formats, £250 is spent on facebook and youtube ads to get their content seen online while generating targeted leads.

      I offer this mainly because I need to do those things to build my readership. I've seen other companies charge extensively for digital versions and email blasts.

      I realize it makes the pitch cumbersome and could be problematic by making explaining all that too convoluted and diluting the pitch, or like when people chuck on a load of superfluous junk bonuses and it has the opposite effective.

      Basically free and extensive promotion in a digital versions and free online advertising is included in the price.

      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      The value is clearly there if it goes out to 28000 rich homes... Are these homes of people who opted in?
      That's every door direct royal mail. But a competitor is doing the same thing, the one who charges 10k for a double spread. They've framed is a 'guaranteed distribution'.

      One thing I have got yet is other outlets and distribution channels. I will have to make that a solid strategy to get as many of those possible. The competitor I'm constantly referencing can boast some impressive well known brands who stock and give out their mags. Plus street distribution. I'll add those two elements, but will have to do without street distributors till I get some capital.

      I was even thinking of a trojan horse method of contact targets asking them if they'd agree to stock it if it was a fit for their audience, and tell them about, and even ask whether they'd be interested in featuring.

      Right now, they are not opt-in, but I can claim guaranteed distribution which hopefully is still a strong proposition.


      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What are competitors in your space charging for ad space of this nature? That's what your prospects will be comparing the value to.
      I came across this media kit yesterday and it opened my eyes to the need of being firm in one direction. Instead of trying to appeal to everyone. I'll better try and create a luxury brand because that is where the money is.

      http://www.rwmg.co.uk/website/advert...PACK%20LOW.pdf


      The magazine will be more closer to this kind of level of local magazine when starting out:

      MediaClash City

      Average prices for those mags can be seen here:

      http://www.mediaclash.co.uk/media/up...7736167.28.pdf


      But they only do 10,000 in distribution. And they aren't in one of the richest cities in the world.

      So I'm going to some in between the two.


      Thanks again for your input John.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    The reason Im asking is because, yes you are right, this looks unrealistic. Maybe Ewan knows something I don't.


    However, what I am trying to get you to do is really break it down here to see if it can look more realistic when we get it down to being simple and defineable. In a concise manner. The first thing you have to be able to do is relay its value in a minute to 2 minutes. Really you have about a minute MAX to catch someone's attention or not. If you got their attention then you just bought two minutes, if you hold it, then you just bought 3-4 minutes.


    Maybe it will look more realistic when we break it down.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    No problem. I have a committment now, but cant wait to checks the links out in the morning.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      No problem. I have a committment now, but cant wait to checks the links out in the morning.
      Cool. Appreciated.

      I did get a demo together to pitch an acquaintance the other day. It contains a mix of the kind of formats, tone content I had in mind for the mag.

      I took some formats, like the full page advertorial, interview, expert feature from another mag, but the rest with the dummy content was how I going to have the mag look in design.


      Bare in mind, I couldn't even use adobe indesign a few backs, it's kind of my first attempt and well of the pace of luxury brands, so I'll be hiring pro's to make sure the actually mags that go out are far better designed.

      But it gives and idea.

      Original, I was just going to make the first call permission to send a demo and rate card and some other marketing material and qualify strongly and get a definitive agreement to call back, like you fax strategy John, you mentioned.

      Since both you an Ewan have doubts of one call closing, I may need to take that approach instead so they can get a visual, concrete idea.

      Anyone here's a mock demo I made to give a clearer idea of the type of formats I'll be trying to sell.

      https://cloud.3dissue.com/95153/9557...ue2/index.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I've got a lot out of this thread already.

    Attempting one call closes is now completely off the table. I was drawn to the idea because obviously it's the fastest route and who wouldn't want to close deals in one 20 minute call.

    But to pull off selling something expensive in one call, I know myself how unrealistic that is to do in the numbers I need. And I'm glad others expressed their doubt about it.

    I'll obviously use time constraints, deals, exclusivity etc, but there's no need to rush someone at a true tipping point. It's not an impulse buy on something simple like a bunch of steak knifes at a 50% discount.

    But it doesn't need to take more than a day or so and two touches. Once to qualify fully, tied down and rock-solid agreement to follow up to discuss it further, get the info and demos to them, let them make the decision, and call them back and let them buy if they want.

    I will have to lower prices to make the deals sweeter. It's better targeting affluents, but even they like irresistible offers and discounts. Target businesses paying upto 10 k near enough the same deal for 2999 should be a good offer. And when I've established a brand I can command those higher fees and be generating inbound enquiries.

    In a lot of cases I'm not even going to lead with a pitch and get seen as salesman. Many people I'll be calling to see if they'd distribute the mag, who happen to be people I would target with the straight pitch anyway. Ask to discuss a potential deal and to look at my material where they can quickly make a simple decisions and will get engage out of politeness and no real sales resistance. Tell them about it and offer them a deal. No pressure. In those situations a once cold close would be a piece of piss if they were at their tipping point with a big project or something they want exposure for. Non of the buying pressure that comes as soon as someone recognizes they are in a sales context. Or I would have got trying an aggressive one call close with no brand recognition.

    Same with contacting potential JV partners and asking to discuss whether they'd be interested in £500 for every sale they make through every sale to their customers. If you make the sales thing secondary, you can run it by them matter of factly they can also be entitled to half price ads themselves. Completely conversational, complete giving them the choice, putting something they desire there and letting them close themselves.

    I can kill too birds with one stone with the trojan horse approach.

    Like John says, the odds of being able to get that chance in cold call is very limited and you need to be exceptionally skilled and have the right offer to get in before the window shuts.

    I've done enough traditional door to door training the way they teach you in field sales offices and enough of other methods to know that traditional sales sets off a trigger response that shuts most people down and gives a very tiny, claustrophobic window to get your pitch across.

    Just wanted to take any discussion of a one call close off the table to not waste anyone's time.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Well, it's certainly not impossible, but on a pre-sell, it's not going to be a a piece of cake either way. However, possible.


    Your introduction of "a local magazine that goes to over 28,000 homes and businesses in some of London's richest postcodes", is certainly a line that should get attention and buy you the first minute of someone's time, but then your offer has to stand up and be convincing.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Well, it's certainly not impossible, but on a pre-sell, it's not going to be a apiece of cake either way. However, possible.


      Your introduction of "a local magazine that goes to over 28,000 homes and businesses in some of London's richest postcodes", is certainly a line that should get attention and buy you the first minute of someone's time, but then your offer has to stand up and be convincing.
      Find out what there best selling product and price is.
      Then use the 28,000 and a realistic % of the 28k to come up
      with a potential earning from the ad.

      If you can come up with basic numbers you can show how
      the ad can pay for itself and maybe even turn a profit.

      Wich is above and beyond the prestige they will receive just for
      having the opportunity to place in your exclusive magazine.

      The way I do it is by asking them what percentage of the people
      seeing the add will buy - the almost always say some unrealistic number

      - like 10%

      So you can easily say - well bob, lets do the quick math on that ...

      what is 10% of 28,000 bob?
      and you said your best seller is 200.00, right?

      Quick, Tell me bob, how much is that?

      wow - bob that's a heck of a potential isn't it?
      see why you want to use your best seller the first time out?

      -----------------------

      Some one smart is going to come along here and tell you this
      is bullshit and misleading - AND - they are correct.

      The numbers are way to high - anyone with half a brain knows it.

      so your job - is to bring them back down to reality - something like this.

      -----------------------

      Bob, I need you to come back down to reality for a second.
      What you just did was take a sneak peek at your potential.

      I need you to understand that probably is NOT going to happen like that.


      It takes a lot of testing and tweaking and rerunning different ads
      to get anywhere near optimal results.

      I don't want to sell you a pipe dream bob, I want you to be happy
      with the results and to keep coming back month after month


      so lets redo the numbers more realistically - fair enough bob?

      (bob) yeah

      Bob - forget 10% think more like 1 percent or half a percent
      if you really want to go bare bones - do a quarter percent of that 28000

      Now bob, if you sell just a quarter percent of that 28000
      are you still turning a profit?

      (bob) yes

      Right, now that we know this is what you need bob, all we need to
      do now is get things in motion - are you excited bob? - yeah me to

      Bob - go get a pen , a piece of paper and your credit card
      and I will hold while you do that ....



      --------------------------------------------------------
      If you take a few minutes and break down each line
      you will easily see what is happening.

      One of the most important thing your doing is building credibility
      by telling them that the numbers aren't realistic -

      but you have to wait until they already run the crazy numbers -
      this gets them greedy - after you see them drooling THEN
      bring down the hammer and say NO way Jose.

      You become there confidant who is looking out for there interest
      and your planting the seed of multiple runs in your magazine.

      i.e - the supreme authority, not just another sales guy pimping ad space.
      Signature

      Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Find out what there best selling product and price is.
        Then use the 28,000 and a realistic % of the 28k to come up
        with a potential earning from the ad.

        If you can come up with basic numbers you can show how
        the ad can pay for itself and maybe even turn a profit.

        Wich is above and beyond the prestige they will receive just for
        having the opportunity to place in your exclusive magazine.

        The way I do it is by asking them what percentage of the people
        seeing the add will buy - the almost always say some unrealistic number

        - like 10%

        So you can easily say - well bob, lets do the quick math on that ...

        what is 10% of 28,000 bob?
        and you said your best seller is 200.00, right?

        Quick, Tell me bob, how much is that?

        wow - bob that's a heck of a potential isn't it?
        see why you want to use your best seller the first time out?

        -----------------------

        Some one smart is going to come along here and tell you this
        is bullshit and misleading - AND - they are correct.

        The numbers are way to high - anyone with half a brain knows it.

        so your job - is to bring them back down to reality - something like this.

        -----------------------

        Bob, I need you to come back down to reality for a second.
        What you just did was take a sneak peek at your potential.

        I need you to understand that probably is NOT going to happen like that.


        It takes a lot of testing and tweaking and rerunning different ads
        to get anywhere near optimal results.

        I don't want to sell you a pipe dream bob, I want you to be happy
        with the results and to keep coming back month after month


        so lets redo the numbers more realistically - fair enough bob?

        (bob) yeah

        Bob - forget 10% think more like 1 percent or half a percent
        if you really want to go bare bones - do a quarter percent of that 28000

        Now bob, if you sell just a quarter percent of that 28000
        are you still turning a profit?

        (bob) yes

        Right, now that we know this is what you need bob, all we need to
        do now is get things in motion - are you excited bob? - yeah me to

        Bob - go get a pen , a piece of paper and your credit card
        and I will hold while you do that ....



        --------------------------------------------------------
        If you take a few minutes and break down each line
        you will easily see what is happening.

        One of the most important thing your doing is building credibility
        by telling them that the numbers aren't realistic -

        but you have to wait until they already run the crazy numbers -
        this gets them greedy - after you see them drooling THEN
        bring down the hammer and say NO way Jose.

        You become there confidant who is looking out for there interest
        and your planting the seed of multiple runs in your magazine.

        i.e - the supreme authority, not just another sales guy pimping ad space.
        First read through was a quick one and I could see it was a good script. After taking the minute on each point to understand what was at play psychologically, I can see it's a truly script for turning that objection in a close and would be tremendously powerful, based on all the elements.

        Thanks Ken.

        Thank you Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          [QUOTE=Underground;9970769]First read through was a quick one and I could see it was a good script. After taking the minute on each point to understand what was at play psychologically, I can see it's a truly script for turning that objection in a close and would be tremendously powerful, based on all the elements.

          Thanks Ken.

          Thank you Ken[
          /QUOTE]

          Anytime - this is the kind of stuff I enjoy talking about.
          To me - exciting stuff watching the light-bulbs go off for people.

          Even more exciting is when light-bulbs go off for me, unfortunately
          that doesn't happen very often any more ( not in sales any way )

          btw; (with all due respect)
          It's time for you to make / buy / collaborate on a script and then
          start testing your *ss off.
          Signature

          Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
            Ken and Underground, I'd take a different approach than
            response and money from the ad placed.

            It sets up a dangerous expectation when you can't
            control what they will be putting in their ad.

            Bob Ross had 3 of his employees collect data
            from all past 9 x 12 mailers from himself and his students
            who did the printing through him as to which type of advertisers
            spent the most money long term.

            It was those that had brand advertising, not direct response
            ads.

            Those which had direct response ads had the
            most one off ads.

            Underground, bundling Facebook and the like into the package
            isn't exclusive.

            Exclusive is what's offered can't be gotten from anywhere at any
            point in time.

            The exclusivity I conjure up is that, exclusive.

            Getting this exclusive offer with the type of time constraint
            you haven't seen yet, becomes part of the package what we
            have to come up with, before it's put in the hands of your salespeople.

            You are responsible for what goes in the "box",
            the "box" is is what you pitch.

            The doctor prescribes an outside intervention.
            It won't be a bitter pill to swallow.

            Best,
            Doctor E. Vile
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post


              It sets up a dangerous expectation when you can't
              control what they will be putting in their ad.
              I was under the impression that ad creation was part of the deal
              or a upsell.

              Not sure why
              Signature

              Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

                I was under the impression that ad creation was part of the deal
                or a upsell.

                Not sure why
                Weird for us guys who account for every dollar spent
                virtually every local business don't.

                And numbers have shown that even if there's a great
                offer in the ad, those advertisers don't repeat.

                Go figure!

                I so go where the money is, even if it's dumb.

                Best,
                Doctor E. Vile
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                • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
                  Having sold ad space....to fairly high end but not as expensive but still enough...
                  also sold ad space in a lower end - suburb type mag..

                  if you want an immediate large sale - full page etc... hit up implant dentists and plastic surgeons (not the ones who work for your British National Health Care LOL)


                  Look for ones who already advertise a lot - check their Yelp etc reviews...the worse they are the better your chances IMHO

                  What about Yachts....helicopter/heliport services....high end travel....jewelry....art galleries

                  IMHO you will have to have a very high end restaurant or better a restaurant "group" (like the way Gordon Ramsey has a bunch of restaurants in his brand)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Underground
                    Originally Posted by Freebiequeen1999 View Post

                    Having sold ad space....to fairly high end but not as expensive but still enough...
                    also sold ad space in a lower end - suburb type mag..

                    if you want an immediate large sale - full page etc... hit up implant dentists and plastic surgeons (not the ones who work for your British National Health Care LOL)


                    Look for ones who already advertise a lot - check their Yelp etc reviews...the worse they are the better your chances IMHO

                    What about Yachts....helicopter/heliport services....high end travel....jewelry....art galleries

                    IMHO you will have to have a very high end restaurant or better a restaurant "group" (like the way Gordon Ramsey has a bunch of restaurants in his brand)

                    Great suggestions. Certainly cosmetic surgeons and dentists. Harley Street is in Westminster. And that's a street with all the private doctors and medical practitioners.

                    Referencing a businesses bad review and then saying we'd like to help restore their brand reputation will be something I'm going to try.

                    And the thing about having big name brands, got me thinking about something John mentioned the other day about using the cache of well known brands in the area to reference in the pitch. I'm willing to give some ads away for free to get those kinds of credibility boosts. I hadn't thought to do that.

                    I was deconstructing a high brand and their copy the other day. And they mention these great, world leading businesses being clients, and it's so compelling, like Ewans list of clients. Heavyweight hiteers. So I better make that a massive priority. Because that can close deals by itself.


                    Thanks for your suggestions. Big help.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Underground
                    Originally Posted by Freebiequeen1999 View Post

                    Having sold ad space....to fairly high end but not as expensive but still enough...
                    also sold ad space in a lower end - suburb type mag..

                    if you want an immediate large sale - full page etc... hit up implant dentists and plastic surgeons (not the ones who work for your British National Health Care LOL)


                    Look for ones who already advertise a lot - check their Yelp etc reviews...the worse they are the better your chances IMHO

                    What about Yachts....helicopter/heliport services....high end travel....jewelry....art galleries

                    IMHO you will have to have a very high end restaurant or better a restaurant "group" (like the way Gordon Ramsey has a bunch of restaurants in his brand)
                    How did you used to sell block bookings, if you sold that way? Have them sign an agreement committing them to say 3 or 6 months campaigns, asking for the first payment and deposit and then invoicing them every month for that months fee?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
                      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                      How did you used to sell block bookings, if you sold that way? Have them sign an agreement committing them to say 3 or 6 months campaigns, asking for the first payment and deposit and then invoicing them every month for that months fee?
                      The local suburb one has a good system on their own, they do a "one time" but mostly they have a 3 or 6 (or 12) month deal, they save $$

                      The higher end one....well the owner is pretty eccentric so hard to say , prices were high but not set in stone, sort of "make a deal" (I actually can still sell for both, I don't really make a business of it, but now refer and get the commission from small biz IF it is something they want/or is appropriate for them)

                      Regarding the "yelp" reviews...rep management might be a good idea down the road but you seem to have your hands full....when I said about the implant dentists, plastic surgeons...I meant call them all but focus on ones that 1) advertise a lot and 2) still have bad reviews.....when you pitch, don't talk about their bad reviews or mention rep management but PUSH THE "ADVERTORIAL", editorial review part of it....

                      that is mostly the way I sold the high end mag - they "get the idea" pretty quick....a good advertorial is something they can feature on their facebook, on their website....it brings a positive "boost" to them.

                      One reason I think implant dentists and plastic surgeons are good is that their profit per new client is soooo high...it makes sense for them. Plus once you reach them, they can make the decision and write the check right then

                      Use the "advertorial" or "review" as a foot in the door...good luck
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            • Profile picture of the author Underground
              Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

              Ken and Underground, I'd take a different approach than
              response and money from the ad placed.

              It sets up a dangerous expectation when you can't
              control what they will be putting in their ad.

              Bob Ross had 3 of his employees collect data
              from all past 9 x 12 mailers from himself and his students
              who did the printing through him as to which type of advertisers
              spent the most money long term.

              It was those that had brand advertising, not direct response
              ads.

              Those which had direct response ads had the
              most one off ads.

              Underground, bundling Facebook and the like into the package
              isn't exclusive.

              Exclusive is what's offered can't be gotten from anywhere at any
              point in time.

              The exclusivity I conjure up is that, exclusive.

              Getting this exclusive offer with the type of time constraint
              you haven't seen yet, becomes part of the package what we
              have to come up with, before it's put in the hands of your salespeople.

              You are responsible for what goes in the "box",
              the "box" is is what you pitch.

              The doctor prescribes an outside intervention.
              It won't be a bitter pill to swallow.

              Best,
              Doctor E. Vile

              I remember seeing the same thing recently in one of his courses and kind of thought at first I wouldn't be able to use Ken's script because it would create an expectation and could lead to disappointment if not met.

              There's three ad format I'll be targeting. Or at least I have that idea for now. Straight brand ads that direct-response marketers frown upon, advertorials that aren't fully direct response, and then I did plan to approach direct-response marketers with consistent ads running.


              The objection is going to come. In the case of brand advertisers, I'd just say we can't promise that or make any claims are allusions to it at all.

              With advertorial ads, I certainly would not prevent them expressing their expectations, bringing them down to a realistic level, and letting them confirm the possibility of a quarter percent response rate being possible. On the caveat that I can't guarantee that.

              I think Bob, in his early enthusiasm, actively gave the impression that those responses were likely, rather than just a logically possibility in the mind of the advertiser, and having him agree that could happen.

              I wouldn't rule it out using it altogether. I won't promise anything, and know that there is a possibility that they could generate a response with a decent advertorial that I will be looking for and approaching regarding whether they want to get that advertorial out there to my demographic.

              If response rate was a deal breaker and everything else was kosher, I would use that over-all script but try to just get a agreement on the possibility of just one or two responses leading to a sale being able to cover their payment while creating brand awareness and recognition at the same time rather than a quarter percent of 28,000 people.

              Because I think that's easily possible, and I'll be targeting people who sell high-ticket items, I don't it would be unethical to sell on the basis of that possibility.

              It may backfire and they don't become a repeat customer. But that's OK with me to begin with. I might drop targeting advertorials and direct response altogether and focus on pure brand at some stage depending on whether I get the trouble Bob did, and I wouldn't try to close on response rates and potential revenue generated in that case.

              The facebook thing, I know that's kind of bloat. I'll be reinvesting 2-250 in facebooks ads for ever sales made for my own benefit to build a digital readership/email list which will become an asset at certain level. As it's deliverable, I thought I'd include or mention it in the deal. But if it comes across as just a pointless bonus chucked in where it actually detracts for the offer, I'd cut it.

              I did think I had something unique and exclusive before finding all these other magazines, who cross over on my patch.

              For the me the only exclusive element of the Mag, is that it's the only one targeting people in the Borough of Westminster, and hitting the top, premium posts codes in that area. I outline them in the media kit, which I might share here and embarrass myself with lame copy. It's not finished yet either.

              Westminster's made up of some of the best areas in London. Mayfair. Piccadily Circus, Buckingham Palace. I've seen other mags focus on one area, like Mayfair, but mine targets all the best postcodes in the area.

              I don't know if it's the same elsewhere other than New York, but in London a house in one premium postcode can sell for a million more than an identical one in neighbouring borough that doesn't have the same cache or reputation.

              I'm hitting the best posts codes in one of the richest boroughs in the city. And that is an exclusive factor I was banking on, because no-one else is doing that and distributing to those areas.

              But that has appeal only to set amount of people who value and buy in to the kind aspiration that make people pay more just on the upmarket reputation of an area.

              I'd love to get a stronger sense of exclusivity but it eludes me and I'm looking forward to finding out how I can get that and what you suggest.
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                I'd love to get a stronger sense of exclusivity but it eludes me and I'm looking forward to finding out how I can get that and what you suggest.
                I would say that part of the exclusivity is being in the first issue. Becoming a premier partner if you will. I seriously would not be going at this 1 ad at a time, but trying to pull 6 month blocks at the exclusive Premier Partner rate. After the first Copy hits the door steps this offer will no longer be available. Lock the pricing in now while you can.

                Think about a rate card that has the "Normal" rate and then the "Premier Partner" rate.

                You would also want to group a 3 page spread with 5 half page ads.. again to get that 6 month block.

                I think adding something like that on top of the distribution location would be that exlusivity factor.

                The other aspect of this is relieving some of the budget strain. Lock people in for 6 publications, and your sales load reduces and your capitol becomes that much more stable.

                Can you really see yourself going through this stress month in and month out?
                Signature
                Success is an ACT not an idea
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                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  I would say that part of the exclusivity is being in the first issue. Becoming a premier partner if you will. I seriously would not be going at this 1 ad at a time, but trying to pull 6 month blocks at the exclusive Premier Partner rate. After the first Copy hits the door steps this offer will no longer be available. Lock the pricing in now while you can.

                  Think about a rate card that has the "Normal" rate and then the "Premier Partner" rate.

                  You would also want to group a 3 page spread with 5 half page ads.. again to get that 6 month block.

                  I think adding something like that on top of the distribution location would be that exlusivity factor.

                  The other aspect of this is relieving some of the budget strain. Lock people in for 6 publications, and your sales load reduces and your capitol becomes that much more stable.

                  Can you really see yourself going through this stress month in and month out?

                  Yeah, I see what you mean. I do have 1-off, 3 month, 6 month and 12 month rates in my media kit, with reductions for longer term advertisers.

                  I'll push for a minimum of 3 months, as I doubt any are going to jump on board with the 6 to 12 in a new magazine that has yet to launch.

                  And I expect to get mainly one off try outs to begin with, or most opting for that option,

                  But I'd better make a firm commitment from the outset of pitching at least a 3 month campaign.

                  The premier partner thing is a great suggestion too. I was going to offer sponsored features and pitch it in that way as looking for sponsors of the mag. I can create a premium package around that.

                  Another format I have is to try to get a resident expert giving advice each month and getting a residential slot for them of 6 months each time.

                  For now though, I think just for the sake of focus, just trying to get advertisers on board the first couple of weeks selling.

                  You're right though, I need to make sure I build the offer around continuity and make every effort to get it. I will present 2 options to interested. A 3 month or a 6 month, with a great saving on 6 months. But obviously have the 1 month option available for those who won't commit to a 3 or 6 month package.
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                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  I would say that part of the exclusivity is being in the first issue. Becoming a premier partner if you will. I seriously would not be going at this 1 ad at a time, but trying to pull 6 month blocks at the exclusive Premier Partner rate. After the first Copy hits the door steps this offer will no longer be available. Lock the pricing in now while you can.

                  Think about a rate card that has the "Normal" rate and then the "Premier Partner" rate.

                  You would also want to group a 3 page spread with 5 half page ads.. again to get that 6 month block.

                  I think adding something like that on top of the distribution location would be that exlusivity factor.

                  The other aspect of this is relieving some of the budget strain. Lock people in for 6 publications, and your sales load reduces and your capitol becomes that much more stable.

                  Can you really see yourself going through this stress month in and month out?
                  Every contributor in this thread has knocked my plan in shape and sharpened my focus.

                  It's amazing how our brains are often so full of pre-conceptions and false assumptions and fallacies we can't see things clearly.

                  I thought/assumed I wouldn't have much chance getting a big continuity booking with the ads in the first edition, and just getting it filled with as many full ads as possible to get much needed capital to scale everything up and get pro's in was the aim, but I really should make a 6 month spot the absolutely best deal and main thrust right from the outset, and not be so short sighted. Go in with a long term vibe assumed with the client and how we want to work closely with them going forward on campaigns and giving them a VIP experience, and many incentives and privileges for that.

                  Focusing on just getting the first sale instead of treating them from the start as long-term clients would have been foolish and not the right way to go about things with high-net worth individuals. Can't think like a street pedaller or impress that mindset on my sales reps.

                  I did have half page and even quarter page ads I was going to sell, plus deals/voucher type formats, but decided to go for the bigger ones because right now there's only me and one sales guy working this to begin with and I need to get the biggest bang for my buck. May give half page ads away to top brands to borrow their credibility though.

                  But it makes sense to put extra thought and emphasis on some special packages and privileges for long term advertisers, and will be focusing on that strongly to try to sell those packages first and foremost.


                  On a different note, I just found a good article about Apple and how they don't focus on people but the product, and how samsung focusing on people helped them gained ground according to some people. I'm going complete impersonal from now on. Looking at my old copy, doing it the way I'd been learning from all the greats, is just never anything but lame.

                  There's another way.

                  "The experience" is essential when advertising luxury brands - Freelance Copywriter - Alastaire Allday
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              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                Originally Posted by Underground View Post


                I think Bob, in his early enthusiasm, actively gave the impression that those responses were likely, rather than just a logically possibility in the mind of the advertiser, and having him agree that could happen.

                I did think I had something unique and exclusive before finding all these other magazines, who cross over on my patch.

                Westminster's made up of some of the best areas in London. Mayfair. Piccadily Circus, Buckingham Palace. I've seen other mags focus on one area, like Mayfair, but mine targets all the best postcodes in the area.

                I'd love to get a stronger sense of exclusivity but it eludes me and I'm looking forward to finding out how I can get that and what you suggest.
                Yes Bob has dropped the response rate appeal and chase those that would
                do Groupon type offers.

                Yes those prime locations are part of the package which creates
                the appeal, however it can be replicated by others later.

                My exclusive appeal you can use has a much tougher barrier for others
                to come in later.

                Which is the reason why I'm not publicly disclosing because it's just too valuable.
                It's rare today you can create an advantage which can't be knocked
                off for the long term.

                Best,
                Doctor E. Vile
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                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                  Yes Bob has dropped the response rate appeal and chase those that would
                  do Groupon type offers.

                  Yes those prime locations are part of the package which creates
                  the appeal, however it can be replicated by others later.

                  My exclusive appeal you can use has a much tougher barrier for others
                  to come in later.

                  Which is the reason why I'm not publicly disclosing because it's just too valuable.
                  It's rare today you can create an advantage which can't be knocked
                  off for the long term.

                  Best,
                  Doctor E. Vile

                  No doubt about that. Very hard to find that advantage.

                  Would you be willing to share that with me privately Ewan?
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                  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                    No doubt about that. Very hard to find that advantage.

                    Would you be willing to share that with me privately Ewan?
                    If you owned it, how would it feel?

                    Best,
                    Doctor E. Vile
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                    • Profile picture of the author Underground
                      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                      If you owned it, how would it feel?

                      Best,
                      Doctor E. Vile

                      On a personal level, genuinely, I'd feel honoured first and foremost to have my coat pulled by someone I have massive respect for and who knows the game inside out. I want to point out that not one word of this post is designed to true to persuade you or make an appeal or plea. I'm just going to be very honest. I have a complex in seeming like an arse kisser and suck-up since so many do that and are disingenuous about it to get what they, and would not say that in this case if it wasn't true.

                      But I honestly would. There's very few people I watch and follow that I'd feel like that and place so much value on them sharing their hard-won knowledge with me, and understand just why you'd want to not divulge stuff like publicly. And having been in awe of how much value you contribute to this forum on a consistent basis and the style in which you get your knowledge across, the same for others here who can recognize that, I know I'd be receiving something of immense value that would make a real difference in my success.

                      So it would be something I'd place high-value on and not take lightly if you decided to share that knowledge. After having searched for a USP that was truly unique and exclusive, after many false dawns, its still elusive. I feel I have something that is highly prized and out of the reach of most people. Because it actually is.


                      In a business sense, in making the firm decision to really go after the affluent, one thing I did absolutely know for certain is they buy competence and expertise that will help them get what they want. And if you can position where you can do that and it's exclusive, then asking for and getting high fees is not an issue and is deserved.

                      I'm no expert in getting what they want directly through my own personal expertise and don't have the time to become one at that level, but realize I need to work with and hire the people that do, otherwise I shouldn't be targeting high-net worth people. There is perfect match for my market of people buying ad space, pr and promotional opportunities with marketing and sales experts in a consultative capacity. It's not something I want to do in-house as a service myself but will absolutely be dealing with many people who need and seek better returns and revenues, so will referring my clients to genuine, proven experts with real pedigree and integrity, who can help them craft the best campaigns and consult with them. I was going to speak to you to find out whether you'd interested in discussing the possibility of referring you to them and make it known we can help them get the best guidance to do that; and do that whenever I know they are in the market for actively increasing the effectiveness and returns on their campaign and wanting to know how to do that. I would happy to set something up where you can set up a consultation with them for more custom, specialized help and would refer them to you without hesitation, in the full knowledge they'd benefit and be happy to have acquired your services and would get more returned from their ad campaigns.


                      A few month backs I discovered a tv show in the UK on a cable channel that usually has vacuous drivel like Housewifes of Atlanta about air-headed gold diggers living a life of luxury, but which was absolute the greatest show I've ever seen. I was riveted to it. Great entertainment and characters in the show, but the education and insight in selling to the affluent and wealthy was just priceless. It was about real estate brokers selling luxury New York real-estate for mega-wealth investors and developers and the dynamic between them. Million Dollar Listing New York | Bravo TV Official Site

                      The most instructive thing was in seeing close up how much rich and aspirant people with money to spend are willing to spend to get what they want. And what they expect when they hire someone. Competence, results, expertise, skill and people who make things happen. I need to be able to do that in my business for maximum success and have brands paying me nice fees to get the results they want. I don't have the expertise myself I need to make sure I can refer work to people who do. And wouldn't just pass it along to anyone in a marriage of convenience to someone who could potential screw that client relationship up, but knowing they are going to get those expertise. Which was why I was going to inquire about any interest there might be in doing that.

                      Suffice to say, I know how compelling a force exclusivity is, as this post shows. And that if most people were offering me it I would doubt they could deliver on the promise and I'd pay them no mind. But you are certainly are not in that majority.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                        Underground, now how would it feel if you didn't get it?

                        Best,
                        Doctor E. Vile
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                        • Profile picture of the author Underground
                          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                          Underground, now how would it feel if you didn't get it?

                          Best,
                          Doctor E. Vile
                          I was going to write a post earlier about what I've changed in my approach and realized when I knew that I had to forget about trying to appeal to high-corporates happy to pay high 5 figures for placement as well as £149 classified people all in one mag because with just a change in focus, learning how the affluent buy and how to sell them, and how to position and brand yourself as a luxury brand, it's not miles apart in terms of the effort involved.

                          Just a different approach, focus and commitment.

                          I pointed out how I've changed the copy, improved the look and feel of marketing material, know what to look for in sales person who has experience beginning fruitful long-term relationships instead of chasing one sale.

                          Basically how much more confident I was having filled in a lot of gaps in my knowledge and refocusing so no every deal I offer and close will be at very decent rates that will generate far more revenue each issue.

                          I still feel confident I can sell. But I know I'd be missing something that truly separates me and puts me ahead of the pack. And would have a strong longing and itching to find and locate that factor that moves my offer and value proposition into the must-have category rather than a so so, mediocre category.

                          I'd lack that complete certainty I'd feel knowing I had the strongest possible hand going into the game.

                          I'd be disappointed and deflated. Knowing there is a long hard, more difficult road ahead until I perhaps find the advantage myself, if I ever did truly happen to make the same discovery of how to create real exclusivity.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                            So you are now seeing the results you don't want and the outcome you want but unable to get...right?

                            Can you put a figure as to what it would be worth to you getting your ideal outcome?

                            BTW, you've been doing really well in*
                            answering the questions in the depth that you have.

                            Best,
                            Doctor E. Vile
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                            • Profile picture of the author Underground
                              Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                              So you are now seeing the results you don't want and the outcome you want but unable to get...right?

                              Can you put a figure as to what it would be worth to you getting your ideal outcome?

                              BTW, you've been doing really well in*
                              answering the questions in the depth that you have.

                              Best,
                              Doctor E. Vile
                              I was immediate going to say what was obvious to me in that is would be unquantifiable.

                              But I thought that could be my brain being predicable, and wanted to think through what having that power would be worth.

                              I know most of the people reading this dialogue would think I was silly, gullible and desperate. Thinking something like gaining genuine exclusivity was pretty straightforward and trivial and wonder why I was so bothered with it.

                              And that's because most people will always be half-arsed and mediocre and lazy, no matter how many years in the game they are. Or they don't know that there are certain, predicable scientific factors that will draw people to your offers, listen to your pitch and want to buy far more often, at higher prices than competitors, that taps into deep drivers and forces in the other person on deep, biological, primitive levels. Or if they do, it's an intellectual understanding only. They'll never have products or services, and appeals and pitches based on those services that wield that power.

                              That elusive factor that draws people to something, that only very few will ever have and the rest will covet. Some are born with it, like great once in generation Hollywood actors or Athletes or musicians, and others who go looking for it have to spend years to find and get it.

                              Most people don't even start looking for it. They have no idea. Or at stuck at a low, self-serving level that they'll never really break out of.

                              I've had a lot of breakthroughs lately and greatly advanced my expertise and found teachers who understand the thing most people do not and probably never will in some cases. In his book, Brain Scripts, which I re-evaluated last night and was up not making notes, the author ask this question:

                              'Why do some salespeople earn big, fat, healthy commission checks while others are barely scraping by? What's the answer? The "secret" is ...

                              Psychology. (I know that will sound trite and obvious to some, but you'll have to read the book to under the full context and where he is coming from.)


                              He then goes on to say how staggering and mind-boggling it is that so few sales people every seek to learn the tried and true principles that drive consumer behavior. They go about their business with the same old world selling techniques, closes, routines and habits thinking these make the difference. Somehow it's them, their drive, their sales prowess, their skills, their scripts. Jeffrey Gitomer, probably the best sales teacher in the world who's free stuff taught me more about selling (how I want my company to do it) than anyone in my whole life who in about 10 free youtube videos, and who I also happened to have revaluated yesterday after not being able to recognise his genius before, said the same thing. How most people thinks it's them, but it's the buyers motive which is more powerful than anything and the determinant in the buying. The trigger point, but called something else. And something people will sneer at as being obvious but they'll never get it fully.

                              I've greatly strengthened my hand in the last few weeks and all I've been studying for years has come to the fore and be refined and I'll be implementing in my business, but that one that would make things cast iron in deal in nearly all cases provided the rest is done, is still elusive.

                              Jim Rohn has a saying something like ''making the sale will make you a living, learning to sell, will make you a fortune''.

                              For a person to have that kind of power in their sales and marketing and offers where it's the kind where you hook them and they are compelled to buy, like we've all experienced it, and all know at least one sales person or marketer who has that power and can use it in all they do and every communication, is way beyond gimmicks and techniques and how most people will do things.

                              I've yet to get there, but if I do then it truly would, in the real sense, be one of those things you can't put a price on. It would be a worth a fortune though to possess, and the proof of that is backed up by how wealthy, effective and/or successful anyone who truly possesses that ability is.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                                What's your next step to get this real long term
                                exclusivity in your market?

                                If you had approached me privately I would of
                                made a suggestion for your next step, since you
                                haven't then I'm asking you...ok?

                                Best,
                                Doctor E. Vile
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                                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                                  What's your next step to get this real long term
                                  exclusivity in your market?

                                  If you had approached me privately I would of
                                  made a suggestion for your next step, since you
                                  haven't then I'm asking you...ok?

                                  Best,
                                  Doctor E. Vile
                                  I haven't done so, but I did intend to do that once I have my revamped material, media kit, offers, created the website and landing pages etc, which is still days away yet, to give you an idea of things, and hopefully I can do that when they are ready, as I thought myself it would important for you to know what I have already.

                                  Without that material so you can get a complete bird's eye view of what I have in place or ready, the following summation will probably sound bland. I haven't polished things up so they nice and succinct because I'd just got out of bed to write these things down before I forget them, but hopefully in there somewhere you'll see what my next steps are to get exclusivity in the market.

                                  My company story, I guess you could call it that, which came to me a little while ago and helped me remember why I decided to start working on and building what I'm doing is based on where the web is predicted to be headed, but people leading the field and engaged in that area. Going on stuff outlined in a opening presentation from Meclabs' Web Optimisation summit last year, about how the web is advancing, how it will expand beyond our hand-held, laptop and desktop devices to out homes and cars, how it will increase how we can communicate, etc.

                                  Plus the idea that it's becoming so pervasive and part of our daily lives that it doesn't make sense to segregate thing into channels and siloes in marketing or make a distinction between print and digital and a business should communicate and make use of all of them, and be accessible across all of them, or lose out to those competitors who are.

                                  Also the advent and development of Semantic Web, etc and where that's headed.

                                  And the volume of new info available today and the argument for quality content curation and sources of info.

                                  So these will be the facts that I'll leverage. What Chet homes use to call the Unique Strategic Proposition, as having an external focus to things happening in the wider marketplace and world and positioning yourself to have an advantage in relation to that as well as the tradition USP which is often taught as something that is between you and your competitors and something you personally do that they don't, but it's probably the same thing in most cases.

                                  I tie that in with how we combine print & digital marketing, pr andadvertising together in one solution and are developing a platform to help them take advantage of these advances through a complete online network of website platforms, each with different purposes - content/media sharing sites, online tv channel, expert q and a sites, events, social media, directory, property, careers, deals, hotels, etc.

                                  We'll also be different from everyone else in that we'll be first where the content from the sites comes from the best businesses, organizations and individuals we invite to share their best content on the site, rather than all the content created by in-house editorial. A series of websites, apps, social media channels, email newsletters and print magazines, and all set up to take advantage of the where the web it headed by people at the forefront, like W3C, Meclabs and other experts.

                                  I know all that sounds boring and would lose most people so I need to pick at the facts and stuff and make compelling arguments and be specific, but in the positioning or mission statements from other companies in the area, no-one is pitching them about being being placed to take advantage of coming opportunities.

                                  Another thing is that I could claim to be the first of my kind in digital publishing to do exactly what I've done in the way it will be when it's going properly and therefore have an exclusive on, unless someone does exactly the same thing in the next few months, to create complete outlet of specialist sites around my area of focus. I suppose that can be exclusive. I hope to add the biggest and best content site around my area to that list. We'll see.

                                  So I'll be selecting brands, companies, artists, talent, etc that fit my brand and giving them business accounts as special users and contributors so they are the ones providing content and bringing their own social media followers etc, creating buzz and providing content I can optimise for seo, advertising,etc, rather than hiring journalists and professional writer, rather than real people and businesses leading the field they operate in, brands, personalities, business leaders, entreprenuers, designers, musicians, actors, who contributing their own content like it was their personal blog.

                                  Content marketing is only going to grow. And many businesses are looking to increase the reach and visibility of their content. I'll be building platforms as well as the right audiences to help them do that.

                                  The magazine, will be a round of the best that's happening on the network and the wider web in general in various locations and act like a kind of vehicle to curate and deliver content my market will like and can relate to.

                                  So that's where I'm at. BTW, I know you extended help the other day and said to ask you if I needed, so I hope I don't seem rude for not getting in touch so far. I wanted to put the material together, and since I had to chuck at all the other stuff I'd had prepared and start again to better suit my target audience that's taken and while.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Well, it's certainly not impossible, but on a pre-sell, it's not going to be a apiece of cake either way. However, possible.


      Your introduction of "a local magazine that goes to over 28,000 homes and businesses in some of London's richest postcodes", is certainly a line that should get attention and buy you the first minute of someone's time, but then your offer has to stand up and be convincing.
      The last census in the area I'm targeting had the average household number at 2.1 people per household. So total readership is possibly over 58,500 people as it stands but will be increasing as I set up distribution points, so I should possibly lead with that.

      My plan all along was to generate leads with an initial non-sales email. I've never failed to generate a very number of leads to pitch with that approach. A simple one referencing their ad in another magazine, giving a brief description of our mag and the numbers and asking them would it make sense to send over some info. I hoping, like you said, the mention of ok figures will create a sense of intrigue and curiosity to find out more on that first contact rather than trying to create desire for a buying decision there and then.

      I want it to sound like a question more than a pitch. By I may test dropping in the fact that we're doing 50% off double spreads for out first edition and they are this offer exclusively because we feel they are a strong match for our audience.

      I already know my responses will be higher with email. And it will weed out people not interested but get those who are to receive more info. I can send more and reach more people and generate more leads.

      I can then send something tangible over to them, like a demo, a media kit, report that does the bulk of the presentation and gives them all the info they need.

      I'l ask them make sure they take a look because the offer's only for a couple of days, they are being offered it exclusively before anyone else, etc. All that.

      But a few things are essential, and in line with everything you've taught over the years, John really about doing high numbers, being casual and straightforward when opening, not wasting too much time on people who aren't in the market and seeking the ones who are

      I need to be contacting as many people as day as possible.

      I need give them something tangible that they can see, feel, and get solid idea and create the trust/proof element rather than trying to create that in a few minutes on a cold call.

      I need to remove the need for a rep to stay on the phone for an hour presenting and going back and forth with time wasters or ditherers.

      And I need to my sales rep up with only solid leads that are on the verge of buying and ready to be closed.


      I've checked out a lot of mags in the same field. They all have no shortage of advertisers when established.

      I'd need to sell just 20 double spread ads at 2499-2999, hopefully on at least a 3 month package, targeting people used to paying at least double that in the next 4 weeks, and forget trying to sell anything else on the first edition just to get the first one out there profitably and then have a product in print form that will then make things far easier after that.

      Like you said, the offer has to stand up.

      So would a 50% launch price for a double spread that costs at least double that, guaranteed to reach over 58,000 affluents across over 27,000 high-income households (ABC1, which I know if you have the same categorization of demographics in the US, but is the top end) people, an extra 5000 printed for street distribution for a total of 32,000 circulation, which is a limited time offer, being offered exclusively to them because they are the brand we feel most suits and it aligned with are audience and they'll be the only advertiser in their category in the magazine so won't have to compete with any direct competition, includes online advertising and inclusion in digital and mobile versions sound OK so far?

      What would others ad to that? What other elements could I add to that to strengthen it.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        The last census in the area I'm targeting had the average household number at 2.1 people per household. So total readership is possibly over 58,500 people as it stands but will be increasing as I set up distribution points, so I should possibly lead with that.

        My plan all along was to generate leads with an initial non-sales email. I've never failed to generate a very number of leads to pitch with that approach. A simple one referencing their ad in another magazine, giving a brief description of our mag and the numbers and asking them would it make sense to send over some info. I hoping, like you said, the mention of ok figures will create a sense of intrigue and curiosity to find out more on that first contact rather than trying to create desire for a buying decision there and then.

        I want it to sound like a question more than a pitch. By I may test dropping in the fact that we're doing 50% off double spreads for out first edition and they are
        Yes drop it. Only use it if you know they want it, but wont / cant pay the
        total upfront.

        Don't do 50% in one shot - do 10 or 15. This gives you multiple shots
        at the close - and if done correctly - makes it appear as if your really
        bending over backwards to get them started.

        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        this offer exclusively because we feel they are a strong match for our audience.


        That's weak, you need to strengthen that.
        One way - in the beginning or after you run the numbers let them know
        your simply qualifying them in order to see if they are a good fit / match / have the potential
        to make the returns .... because if not - they will be rejected.
        Signature

        Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Yes drop it. Only use it if you know they want it, but wont / cant pay the total upfront.


          Don't do 50% in one shot - do 10 or 15. This gives you multiple shots
          at the close - and if done correctly - makes it appear as if your really
          bending over backwards to get them started.
          I can see the wisdom in this. My reservation here is that if the first price they see is when they look through the rate card I send them, and I don't already tell them about how they'll be getting 50% of the usual price, which will show as £4999 on the rate card, they might just check out completely there and then and without being able to address that objection there and then in the moment it might totally kill their desire.

          I suppose this could done on the follow up call, but I'd rather not kill the desire in the first place. Something to test for sure side by side, and something I'll definitely make full use of when more established.




          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          That's weak, you need to strengthen that.
          One way - in the beginning or after you run the numbers let them know
          your simply qualifying them in order to see if they are a good fit / match / have the potential
          to make the returns .... because if not - they will be rejected.
          I could feel it was weak myself actually when I said it. Even adding the point they'd be the only brand in, say, they luxury good category, was still lacklustre.

          Putting a condition on things so that the situation is just them checking out the info and seeing if the want to discuss things further to see if we are both a match and fit, is one of the elements that take back all the power from the buyer and creates a fear of loss. I love that. The opposite of desperate.

          I've ran through a couple of scenarios about where I can use that, and I'm stumped right now to find an elegant place to put that, but I know for certain communicating that we need to make sure that we are a mutual fit and to have a discussion on that to uncover whether they have the potential to make the returns we require in order to be able to offer them exclusivity in their brand category, is a cast-iron way to convey a strong exclusivity factor.

          Great stuff again.


          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Anytime - this is the kind of stuff I enjoy talking about.
          To me - exciting stuff watching the light-bulbs go off for people.

          Even more exciting is when light-bulbs go off for me, unfortunately
          that doesn't happen very often for me any more ( not in sales any way )

          btw; (with all due respect)
          It's time for you to make / buy / collaborate on a script and then
          start testing your *ss off.
          You're right.

          I'm well behind. There's no shortage of desire to get moving, and no fear making me engage in avoidance behavior. I'd have loved to have gotten out of the traps ages ago. Unfortunately, there's still back-end stuff I need to tie in the next few days to me I still can't get out there and doing revenue generating activity.

          I thought I had it all tied up. I had my target market and offers. But then finding out the gulf in prices in local magazine ads based on positioning, branding and who they target, I knew I need to raise prices and focus on the affluent more than the lower end. I needed to get expert advice on how best to do that.

          And I can definitely say with the advice I've gotten, that I've received that and am better prepared and equipped than I was and busted to get going and surmount the challenge and break through all the BS preconceptions I had that were limiting me having the balls to start positioning myself at a more higher end level and asking for bigger prices.
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