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Would you fire this VERY well paying, extremely nice offline business owner?

by seobeginner
25 replies
Hi Warriors,

I am in a bit of a bind.

I have an offline client since late spring. He pays me more for consulting (AP style) than some people make in a year. He is one of the friendliest, warmest, most genuine people I have ever met.

He is so successful and busy that he does not have the time for me.

I explained to him over the course of a few face to face meetings that I absolutely needed his input for several things, and that the project would not advance rapidly unless he was there for me.

I'll give you a few examples:

-I am doing SEO work for him. His main page was 100% flash. I told him that we had to put text on his homepage, and to remove the flash. So in early August I wrote copy for this and sent it to him for approval. He never responded. I reminded him again in October. He never responded. He has yet to give me feedback.

-I hired a small team of graphic artists to do a referral card that he can give to his clients and ask for referrals. He never got back to me on the design/layout/text. I had to drive one hour to show it to him. He loved it. I asked him for one detail that HAD to be in it. He never responded during the meeting or to my follow-up e-mails. Much of his business is word-of-mouth. Implementing a referral strategy would do wonders to his biz. I am still stuck with this part of the project.

-He never responded to the press releases I wrote (and he wanted some done.) So I couldn't release them. They are well-written and convincing by the way.

-I told him to get a second phone line. I sometimes get a busy signal when I call. Not good for business. Or the phone rings and rings and rings (it takes 8 rings or so for the answering machine to come on.) I told him to make it click after 3 rings. He didn't do it.

There are many more examples...

He told me a few times later on that he was very disappointed with my services. When I explain things to him, he understands... but then he later forgets and feels bad and resentful, saying I cost him a lot of money. He almost seemed to be in tears once.

I felt the need to compensate and do a LOT more than what I put in the agreement so he could get some ROI. This additional work cost me a rather significant amount of money (taken out of my profits), as well as took me a long time to put into place and implement. In addition, the workload was so high that I did not have the luxury of going to get other clients, so I can have a nice lifestyle.

I put in the agreement that he would make himself available to me.

I am burned out and dreaming of having a lot of free time to land JV deals, customer reactivation deals, etc.

What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.

SEO
#business #extremely #nice #offline #owner #paying
  • Profile picture of the author iw433
    I don't understand. You say he pays you, but does not take your advice. If you don't like that situation give me the account I can handle it.
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    Bill Skywalker Edwards
    Address-O-Lite

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  • Profile picture of the author bhuff85
    Do you have any contracts laid out with them? If not, I would establish something like that right away (unless it's too late for that). This way, everyone knows upfront what's expected on both sides. Then, if you decide to overdeliver or go the extra mile on a few things, they will be able to see that, regardless of what kind of time they have on their hands.

    For any clients that I work with offline, I always go the contract route. They aren't fun and they aren't pretty, but establishing guidelines and expectations upfront cause less headaches (if any) down the road.
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    • Profile picture of the author seobeginner
      Thanks for your help guys.

      Originally Posted by bhuff85 View Post

      Do you have any contracts laid out with them? If not, I would establish something like that right away (unless it's too late for that). This way, everyone knows upfront what's expected on both sides.
      Yes we do have a contract. As I stated, ''I put in the agreement that he would make himself available to me.''

      JMichaelZ, you are right.

      Thanks again,

      SEO
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      • Profile picture of the author bhuff85
        Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

        Yes we do have a contract. As I stated, ''I put in the agreement that he would make himself available to me.''
        Seems way too "loose". From what you mentioned, it sounds like there were times when he was available (probably just not when you needed him to be). Without terms that are straight and to the point, it doesn't give you much to fall back on, though.

        It's ultimately your call, but I say if he pays you each month on-time and you're holding up you're end of the bargain, I'd ride it out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
    Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post


    I am burned out and dreaming of having a lot of free time to land JV deals, customer reactivation deals, etc.

    What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.

    SEO
    That part counts a lot. If the money is not worth the burnout, its time to let him go.

    I am not so sure that you are going to build a long term income by paying for things out of your pocket and resenting that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Million
    Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

    Hi Warriors,

    I am in a bit of a bind.

    I have an offline client since late spring. He pays me more for consulting (AP style) than some people make in a year. He is one of the friendliest, warmest, most genuine people I have ever met.

    He is so successful and busy that he does not have the time for me.

    I explained to him over the course of a few face to face meetings that I absolutely needed his input for several things, and that the project would not advance rapidly unless he was there for me.

    I'll give you a few examples:

    -I am doing SEO work for him. His main page was 100% flash. I told him that we had to put text on his homepage, and to remove the flash. So in early August I wrote copy for this and sent it to him for approval. He never responded. I reminded him again in October. He never responded. He has yet to give me feedback.

    -I hired a small team of graphic artists to do a referral card that he can give to his clients and ask for referrals. He never got back to me on the design/layout/text. I had to drive one hour to show it to him. He loved it. I asked him for one detail that HAD to be in it. He never responded during the meeting or to my follow-up e-mails. Much of his business is word-of-mouth. Implementing a referral strategy would do wonders to his biz. I am still stuck with this part of the project.

    -He never responded to the press releases I wrote (and he wanted some done.) So I couldn't release them. They are well-written and convincing by the way.

    -I told him to get a second phone line. I sometimes get a busy signal when I call. Not good for business. Or the phone rings and rings and rings (it takes 8 rings or so for the answering machine to come on.) I told him to make it click after 3 rings. He didn't do it.

    There are many more examples...

    He told me a few times later on that he was very disappointed with my services. When I explain things to him, he understands... but then he later forgets and feels bad and resentful, saying I cost him a lot of money. He almost seemed to be in tears once.

    I felt the need to compensate and do a LOT more than what I put in the agreement so he could get some ROI. This additional work cost me a rather significant amount of money (taken out of my profits), as well as took me a long time to put into place and implement. In addition, the workload was so high that I did not have the luxury of going to get other clients, so I can have a nice lifestyle.

    I put in the agreement that he would make himself available to me.

    I am burned out and dreaming of having a lot of free time to land JV deals, customer reactivation deals, etc.

    What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.

    SEO
    This is a classic 80/20 rule example - 20% of your clients will take up 80% of your time... I would personally pass on this from experience as it won't end well and you probably won't get paid for your last cycle of service unless he's paying upfront.

    If you're living paycheck to paycheck start saving away and prepare to be burned for 1-2 month's work if you decide to stick with him... happened to me long ago
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

    I am burned out and dreaming of having a lot of free time to land JV deals, customer reactivation deals, etc.

    What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.
    Short answer - Tell him nicely that you don't have the time to do him justice, and let him go.

    I don't think anyone can afford clients who won't make time for them, and then blame any bad results on them. If he is telling you he doesn't think you are doing a good job, don't you think he is also telling others? Or will he forget to do that also?

    Marvin
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Here's an idea - don't fire a "very well-paying, extremely nice client".

      Propose a change in your agreement. He obviously isn't going to make himself available to you, so propose that you be given authority to make the necessary changes in this arena without running to him for approval every step of the way.

      Bump yourself from "that pesky consultant who's costing me a lot of money" to a project manager who is making things happen and putting money in his pocket without him having to drop everything and evaluate things that, truth be told, he may not understand.

      If it doesn't work, you still have the option of parting ways...
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Here's an idea - don't fire a "very well-paying, extremely nice client".

        Propose a change in your agreement. He obviously isn't going to make himself available to you, so propose that you be given authority to make the necessary changes in this arena without running to him for approval every step of the way.

        Bump yourself from "that pesky consultant who's costing me a lot of money" to a project manager who is making things happen and putting money in his pocket without him having to drop everything and evaluate things that, truth be told, he may not understand.

        If it doesn't work, you still have the option of parting ways...
        This is a very viable option. The other is to except that he runs a large company and you need to deal with flappers.

        I expect he has hired people to deal with marketing, and instead of talking to them you're bothering the boss.

        Ask him if he has someone that he has in charge of marketing that you could liaise with. I expect he will be delighted you finally 'get it', but if not then follow John's advice.

        Cheers,
        Colin Palfrey
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      • Profile picture of the author 1960Texan
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Here's an idea - don't fire a "very well-paying, extremely nice client".

        Propose a change in your agreement. He obviously isn't going to make himself available to you, so propose that you be given authority to make the necessary changes in this arena without running to him for approval every step of the way.

        Bump yourself from "that pesky consultant who's costing me a lot of money" to a project manager who is making things happen and putting money in his pocket without him having to drop everything and evaluate things that, truth be told, he may not understand.

        If it doesn't work, you still have the option of parting ways...
        John, that is some classic "out-of-the-box" thinking.
        I was just about to respond to the OP by saying most of us occasionally have to fire a client, but your post stopped me in my tracks.
        OP--do what John said.

        Will
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      • Profile picture of the author seobeginner
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Here's an idea - don't fire a "very well-paying, extremely nice client".

        Propose a change in your agreement. He obviously isn't going to make himself available to you, so propose that you be given authority to make the necessary changes in this arena without running to him for approval every step of the way.

        Bump yourself from "that pesky consultant who's costing me a lot of money" to a project manager who is making things happen and putting money in his pocket without him having to drop everything and evaluate things that, truth be told, he may not understand.
        I actually do have ''Carte Blanche'' for most things. With that said, there are things that have to be approved by him, or he can get into huge trouble. For instance, his secretary called me in a panic last week and asked me to take down all testimonials from his sites and in the free report I wrote for him. It is against the law for people in his industry to show testimonials. Dumb, huh? Things aren't the same in Canada as they are in the States.

        I also wrote copy for him, and used one word that would have gotten him in hot water had he been ''caught'' using it on his site. When he told me that, I replied, ''You gotta be kidding me.'' This word is often used in his industry, but he doesn't have the right to use it.

        SEO
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    • Profile picture of the author BruceWood
      Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

      Short answer - Tell him nicely that you don't have the time to do him justice, and let him go.

      I don't think anyone can afford clients who won't make time for them, and then blame any bad results on them. If he is telling you he doesn't think you are doing a good job, don't you think he is also telling others? Or will he forget to do that also?

      Marvin
      Sad but true.
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      Bruce Wood
      High-Ticket Affiliate Marketing
      Creative Marketing For Local Businesses
      PingFarm

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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

    What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.
    This is a very simple scenario.

    Stop WAITING for his input and permission.

    Ask for his input, and tell him what you will do if he doesn't give you any.

    Tell him what he needs, what it will cost him if you get it yourself, and when you will do that if he doesn't respond.

    When you buy something he needs, add it to your invoice as an expense.

    So, for example, you would take the usual contractor letter:

    I need to know whether you are going to promote this through online or offline advertising. Online will be more expensive but get better short-term results. Offline will be inexpensive, but only really works in the long term. Which would you prefer?
    And you would do this:

    We need to promote this through advertising. I would recommend we do online advertising, which will cost $1,500 for the campaign I have in mind plus a $350 design fee for the marketing collateral. Offline advertising would only cost $300, but have a larger design fee of $675. I believe we will get the best results from the online campaign for $1,850, and will put that in motion next Tuesday. If you would prefer the $975 offline campaign, or you will arrange the campaign yourself, please inform me by then. I will add any advertising expense to my invoice on the 25th.
    If he doesn't respond, you tack $1,850 on his invoice (itemised into $1,500 and $350 charges with receipts included), and if he complains you just forward him the email.

    This is someone who wants an expert. Someone who will make the decisions for him and just tell him what it costs. Stop paying out of your own pocket; it is not your job to buy more things for him. If he needs something you don't do, find a place to get it and let him pay for it.

    If he does not like this, tell him he needs to provide you with more guidance until you can accurately predict his decisions, but the delays in making decisions are costing him money and it's part of your job to prevent that.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshyybaxx
      Might be different in America but that's kind of illegal I believe, silence is not an approval to do something and you might find your self being obliged to return the money (In Australia).

      You need to sit down with him, show him all the times you have tried to organize things and how he has simply ignored you, explain you cannot do these things without his input (not just tell him, make sure he understands and accepts he needs to take more time and make this agreement work)

      If at the end of the day nothing works and he keeps bringing up the blame game drop him and move on, the money might be good but it's not worth it if you're becoming physically burned out.
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      =)

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      • Profile picture of the author seobeginner
        Thanks again to all of you for your excellent advice. It helped me a great deal, and I really appreciate it.

        I will take the time to educate him on what I sent him for review, when, and why I absolutely needed his help for things to move forward. I am very convincing and thorough so I can see this working out very well.

        Have a great day!

        SEO
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        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          While I could be completely WRONG, I just don't see this course of action getting any attention from him unless your going to go in and talk to him in person.

          History has proven that he has not responded to your previous communications via email. Do you know if he's even reading them? Do you send the thing that tells you the message has been displayed on his computer?

          Maybe you should just trot down there and speak with him in person anyways. My previous post is designed to get a response that will perhaps get his attention.

          Being a retired brick and mortar business owner myself, I can tell you that doing what I mentioned in my previous post would get me talking to you pronto.



          Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

          Thanks again to all of you for your excellent advice. It helped me a great deal, and I really appreciate it.

          I will take the time to educate him on what I sent him for review, when, and why I absolutely needed his help for things to move forward. I am very convincing and thorough so I can see this working out very well.

          Have a great day!

          SEO
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          • Profile picture of the author seobeginner
            Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

            While I could be completely WRONG, I just don't see this course of action getting any attention from him unless your going to go in and talk to him in person.

            History has proven that he has not responded to your previous communications via email. Do you know if he's even reading them? Do you send the thing that tells you the message has been displayed on his computer?

            Maybe you should just trot down there and speak with him in person anyways. My previous post is designed to get a response that will perhaps get his attention.
            I have a one hour meeting with him scheduled next month. And I asked for it at the beginning of THIS month. That's how busy he is.

            He's too busy working in his business to work on his business.

            Thanks again!

            I'm off to find new business in the meantime.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Kind of illegal you believe..ok.

        Originally Posted by Joshyybaxx View Post

        Might be different in America but that's kind of illegal I believe, silence is not an approval to do something and you might find your self being obliged to return the money (In Australia).

        You need to sit down with him, show him all the times you have tried to organize things and how he has simply ignored you, explain you cannot do these things without his input (not just tell him, make sure he understands and accepts he needs to take more time and make this agreement work)

        If at the end of the day nothing works and he keeps bringing up the blame game drop him and move on, the money might be good but it's not worth it if you're becoming physically burned out.
        Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author seobeginner
    Wow, thank you so much guys for all your help. It means a lot.

    I have a lot of money saved up, so no worries there.

    I'll re-read your suggestions before making a decision.

    Cheers,

    SEO
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  • Profile picture of the author Intermission
    I had a client like this once and I was SO relieved when I let them go and we parted ways. I have never regretted it. Although, after 2 years of my work and much progress, we parted with him saying I 'didn't do much' for what he paid for! (Ugh!)

    When, like you, I would beat my head against a wall in frustration because he wouldn't respond to my calls and emails and requests for input or more information. And my contract with him specifically outlined that he would provide this kind of timely feedback. It didn't happen.

    I was better off without the income because the stress wasn't worth it. And I waffled for about 6 months before we cut ties. I wish we had sooner.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Alexander
    Not everyone is going to do what they should do, or want to do what they should do. You are not responsible for his actions or any lack of actions on his part.

    You feel bad because you care, and that's a good thing. But you can't care too much or you'll continue to drive yourself crazy. Let him fire you if he wants to.

    Are you helping him? Improving his business as much as you can without the help you'd like him to give? Most importantly, are you living up to your end of the agreement?

    If so, you're doing all you can do. You are not responsible for the results he's getting. You're only responsible for the results he'll get (within reason) if he applies the work and marketing you give him.

    You're feeling responsible because you see all the good that would come if he just applied and approved these changes--but his efforts aren't under your control. Plead, cajole, sweet talk or whatever...he's a grown man and he can fire you anytime he wants to if he feels it's that bad.

    Do your job. Do what you promise. And do it with integrity, and do it on time. Then let him go from there. Explain to him you want to help, and you enjoy the professional arrangement, but there's work on his end to see the results he wants to see.

    Just remember, you are not responsible for what anyone does with what you give them. Once you get that clear, you'll lighten up and feel better. Just stay honest and work hard as you've agreed to and that's all you can do. If you still worry, John said it best above...
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

      I actually do have ''Carte Blanche'' for most things. With that said, there are things that have to be approved by him, or he can get into huge trouble. For instance, his secretary called me in a panic last week and asked me to take down all testimonials from his sites and in the free report I wrote for him. It is against the law for people in his industry to show testimonials. Dumb, huh? Things aren't the same in Canada as they are in the States.

      I also wrote copy for him, and used one word that would have gotten him in hot water had he been ''caught'' using it on his site. When he told me that, I replied, ''You gotta be kidding me.'' This word is often used in his industry, but he doesn't have the right to use it.

      SEO
      In that case, Colin's advice is sound. Ask who needs to sign off on legal stuff. Odds are, someone is advising him, and you'll be more valuable to him if you can go straight to the legal department (or whatever).

      If I had to guess, your client is in financial services. Close?
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      • Profile picture of the author SergeyZ
        I bet his client's a doctor.

        Anyway, the next time you ask him for something write out what you need, set a deadline, and make him sign it.

        Then, when he complains after forgetting to do what he promised and is on the verge of tears simply show him the paper and state that, unless he will abide by what he signs you'll have to drop him as a client.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Here is exactly what I would do.

    Take 2 press releases and just submit them. Send him an email notifying him that these press releases are live on the internet or wherever you released them to.

    Please see the attached copies of the PR's.

    Thank you.

    One of two things are going to happen,

    If he calls or emails you back and asks why you didn't get his approval first. At which point you "VERY" politely inform him that because he didn't respond before when you sent them to him, you felt that they met with his approval so you submitted them.

    He might surprise you and say that he just wants you to do it these things. If he's very successful and very busy, don't take his lack of response to you as something he doesn't deem important. Maybe he just trust's you to get it done, no?

    Then on the other hand he might be a little miffed and tell you not to take action without his consent. This is the time to reset the ground rules and just kindly express to him that he needs to respond or at least have some one respond on his behalf so you know whats going on.
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  • Profile picture of the author MusclecarJ
    Originally Posted by seobeginner View Post

    Hi Warriors,

    I am in a bit of a bind.

    I have an offline client since late spring. He pays me more for consulting (AP style) than some people make in a year. He is one of the friendliest, warmest, most genuine people I have ever met.

    He is so successful and busy that he does not have the time for me.

    I explained to him over the course of a few face to face meetings that I absolutely needed his input for several things, and that the project would not advance rapidly unless he was there for me.

    I'll give you a few examples:

    -I am doing SEO work for him. His main page was 100% flash. I told him that we had to put text on his homepage, and to remove the flash. So in early August I wrote copy for this and sent it to him for approval. He never responded. I reminded him again in October. He never responded. He has yet to give me feedback.

    -I hired a small team of graphic artists to do a referral card that he can give to his clients and ask for referrals. He never got back to me on the design/layout/text. I had to drive one hour to show it to him. He loved it. I asked him for one detail that HAD to be in it. He never responded during the meeting or to my follow-up e-mails. Much of his business is word-of-mouth. Implementing a referral strategy would do wonders to his biz. I am still stuck with this part of the project.

    -He never responded to the press releases I wrote (and he wanted some done.) So I couldn't release them. They are well-written and convincing by the way.

    -I told him to get a second phone line. I sometimes get a busy signal when I call. Not good for business. Or the phone rings and rings and rings (it takes 8 rings or so for the answering machine to come on.) I told him to make it click after 3 rings. He didn't do it.

    There are many more examples...

    He told me a few times later on that he was very disappointed with my services. When I explain things to him, he understands... but then he later forgets and feels bad and resentful, saying I cost him a lot of money. He almost seemed to be in tears once.

    I felt the need to compensate and do a LOT more than what I put in the agreement so he could get some ROI. This additional work cost me a rather significant amount of money (taken out of my profits), as well as took me a long time to put into place and implement. In addition, the workload was so high that I did not have the luxury of going to get other clients, so I can have a nice lifestyle.

    I put in the agreement that he would make himself available to me.

    I am burned out and dreaming of having a lot of free time to land JV deals, customer reactivation deals, etc.

    What would you do? Should I keep paying out of my pocket for the ''additional'' things like advertising (which is working very well) as well as other things? Would you fire him and move on? Thanks for your help.

    SEO
    you have to ask yourself 1 simple question...can you make more money and be happier at the same time with out this client.. If you can move on..if you cant I would wait to make a move until you can replace his revenue. In the end money is only a piece of the equation..you obviously work hard and dont want your hard work wasted..you want to see the fruits of your labors realized...I get it. I would have a long firm conversation with him and continue workign with him for a trial period of say 90 days( he shouldnt know he is on a trial period) All the while look for other opportunies to replace his revenue stream. If after 90 days things are better than great if not then hopefully you found some business in those 90 days to replace him.
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