Offline customer charges back and Paypal takes $250

34 replies
I learn a new lesson everyday, but this one has been painful. I contacted a potential offline client on Craigslist on January 30. I actually made a screen capture video with his ad on the screen and talked about what I could do for him. That same day, a Sunday, he emailed me back and said that my response to him was the most professional out of the 300 he had received, but he did not think he could afford my services.

We went back and forth about pricing and what I was willing to offer. He needed 2 sites, but he could only pay $500 he said. So, I told him that I was willing to design a theme (Artisteer) and build him a site for $250 BUT he would need to add his own content and pages. I told him I would even make him a training video showing him how to create the pages/posts. He said okay.

I start to work on the site and he starts emailing me tons of images and a header he had created by someone. It had buttons embedded so I had to ask a techy friend to re-code it to make it work on a Wordpress site. About 2 days later, I had it ready, made his training video and sent it over. He calls me up surprised that I had not written content and added it. I reminded him of our agreement and pointed him back to the emails. He says ok and I don't hear from him again. He immediately changes the password on the site.

Fast forward over a month to yesterday. I wake up to find my Paypal account is $250 less and now negative. I also have email from Paypal, so I call them. They said he paid via credit card and did a charge back as "item not described". They now have to fight with his cc company on my behalf. I explain the whole deal and send them all of the emails, the initial video I made and the last video showing my work. He is still using the site and has even added content since then. His business was failing, so I think he just wanted to get some money back and figured he could steal it from me.

This just makes me so angry because I did the work in good faith and some people just want to steal from you I guess. Has anyone had this happen to them and what was the outcome?

What really irks me is that I have 3 kids to feed and this is a lot of money for me right now, so I hope that I have provided enough evidence to Paypal that the credit card company can see through this guy's shenanigans.

Funny thing was that he claims MY ad was misleading... Uh, dude YOU are the one who placed an ad! I did not place an ad.... Idiot. Plus, he would not allow me to create the template. He sent me HIS template and then told my husband on the phone (my hubby called him and did not say who he was- so he called back and was confronted in a nice way and then hung up LOL) that the site was "crap". It was HIS design! If it looked like crap, that was on him. Crazy.....

CC
#$250 #back #charges #customer #offline #paypal #takes
  • Profile picture of the author BruceWood
    That's another story for your memoirs. I've been through similar bogus claims and actually won, but the experience took a toll on my faith in others. I feel for you, but the lesson here may be not to rely on Paypal or credit card payments.

    It's nerve-wracking to wait for a check in the mail, but it makes it much harder for the client to pull this kind of BS. I've also gotten into the habit of asking for wire transfers on anything over $1000.

    Good luck with this!
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  • Profile picture of the author VOnline
    Provide support and evidence.
    Small things like this shouldn't require a contract. Even if it's just a contract with blanks you can fill out for each new client. Guess things might have to change..

    Good luck and I hope you get your rightful money back.
    You can state the Ad thing. That will also help with his lies. Screenshots, ad posts, threads, forum, email, screen chat. Anything you have that is evidence you can send to PP.
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  • Profile picture of the author O0o0O
    This is another classic story of folks buying digital goods and services through PayPal then reversing the payment, claiming they didn't get the services and goods described. The sellers always get the rough end of the stick in these cases. It's happened to me too. And I'm sure it's happened at least once to people on here who have used PayPal in the past to sell their goods and services. It's way to easy for people to claim they never got our goods and services. PayPal always sides with the buyer. So, if you're a seller, just treat it like a numbers game. If you sell your digital goods and services through PayPal, just make sure that the number of people who don't reverse their payment is greater than the number of people who do.
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    • Profile picture of the author sellerscompanion
      Just to be clear, this is not a Paypal issue as much as a credit card issue. My Paypal rep actually told me that had he paid using his PP account, this would be a non-issue. However, he charged back on his credit card, not at PP. Therefore, PP cannot do anything but provide the evidence I give them and we both have to sit and hope that his cc company sees through his shenanigans in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Fight the chargeback, I always do and haven't failed yet.

    The ****ty thing about paypal is definitely the chargebacks. They take the most time out of everyone and it just sucks. I have found a workaround though!

    If you are eligible for sellers protection, then you will be safe from these things. However, since you are selling a service, you aren't eligible. The key to getting sellers protection for these things, is putting all the site files into a zip file and MAIL IT!! That way IF you have a chargeback, you have the tracking number of the PRODUCT you provided through your service.

    I also learned the hard way. Got ripped off of $600 from a WARRIOR. Months went by, no problem he was happy with his site and one night I received an email from paypal stating there was a chargeback.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    It sucks but chargebacks are part of the game. Its best to always push for a check or even check by phone ...or even wire as some have suggested, cc is a last resort. I guess it doesnt do any good to tell you that now, but then we are only telling you what we were told when it happened to us.

    Best just to get the frustration out and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    If PP doesn't win the charge back dispute go
    to small claims court for the win.

    Tsnyder
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    • Profile picture of the author davidjames42973
      I agree with John. Charge backs are part of the game. It really does suck, but do what you can do with Paypal and just move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    No pay = No play

    DMCA him for copyright infringement if he is using your work without permission (i.e. payment). If he doesn't take it down (or pay someone to do it) I'm sure his host will gladly take care of the site's removal for you (or risk being sued themselves)

    Teach him to be professional.

    ~Dexx
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  • Profile picture of the author jsnfou
    Paypal will probably fail on your behalf too as time and time again Paypal most always supports the buyer.. I think the only thing Paypal protects you on is eBay but even still a lot of sellers get scammed. Hope it goes your way, chin up!
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    • Profile picture of the author Flamboyantegg
      I'm a +1 for the "it's an unfortunate part of online business" camp here.

      Past a certain point it becomes pointless, both in time and money investment, to prove the point that you actually did perform the work.

      A day's worth of effort in a "Small Claim's Court" for instance might actually be a net loss for you, due to the fact that during that day (for example) you could have worked for a $300 contract.

      It sucks hard, but sometimes you just grit and bear it; brick and mortar businesses don't follow up every petty theft to the absolute furthest they theoretically could, as it would mean shutting down shop for weeks... Same deal here.

      Don't spend to much more time on it and yeah, maybe a contract that is required to be faxed back and forth (or something?) could help with CC companies next time.
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      • Profile picture of the author THK
        Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg View Post


        A day's worth of effort in a "Small Claim's Court" for instance might actually be a net loss for you, due to the fact that during that day (for example) you could have worked for a $300 contract.
        It is true what you said here, but isn't this kind of thinking fuel the scam artists more. Maybe if they face the court more often, they will not try to cheat every time they do business with someone.

        Or maybe I am wrong, maybe it won't change a thing. Since OP mentioned the amount is significant maybe a day in court will be well spent.

        Plus it would be nice to hear that the person OP dealt with got what s/he deserved.

        @sellerscompanion
        I hope you get it sorted out soon. All the best.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by THK View Post

          It is true what you said here, but isn't this kind of thinking fuel the scam artists more. Maybe if they face the court more often, they will not try to cheat every time they do business with someone.

          Or maybe I am wrong, maybe it won't change a thing. Since OP mentioned the amount is significant maybe a day in court will be well spent.

          Plus it would be nice to hear that the person OP dealt with got what s/he deserved.

          @sellerscompanion
          I hope you get it sorted out soon. All the best.
          Go to court if you KNOW you will win. When that happens, reimburse your losses, filing fees, charges, and hardship due to the claim, and also prosecute the defendant on the grounds of chargeback fraud.

          I have a case right now, where I'll be going to florida to fight chargeback fraud, and a little 6-700 website, is turning into a 4,800 dollar website.
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    • Profile picture of the author nofearman
      NOPE! Incorrect. ONLY for Goods , NOT for Services. PayPal will NOT favor for the buyer for services. I have disputed with PayPal for services I never received and PayPal denied based on their policy to not refund for services.

      Originally Posted by jsnfou View Post

      Paypal will probably fail on your behalf too as time and time again Paypal most always supports the buyer.. I think the only thing Paypal protects you on is eBay but even still a lot of sellers get scammed. Hope it goes your way, chin up!
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    • Profile picture of the author nofearman
      delete duplicate
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      • Profile picture of the author QuickSurf
        For stuff like website design etc, checks or wire... long as you delivered on your service.
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        • Profile picture of the author sellerscompanion
          I agree that Paypal will back you up for services, but Paypal is not making the decision here. They are just as powerless as I am. This is the buyer's credit card company making the decision as he filed a chargeback with them. Paypal has already told me that if they were making the decision, this would be a non-issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author amylimcd
    I agree with Dexx as your best "practical" recourse. If he did not pay for something you created for him, then he does not have the right to use it on his site (copyright infringement).

    Pursuant to the DMCA, every hosting company has a reporting process where you can report an infringing activity on a website hosted by them. At the very least, you can get his site taken down until he removes the elements that you did for him.

    Good luck!
    Amy
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Amazing what a contract, complete with specified deliverables and conditions, will prevent.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Amazing what a contract, complete with specified deliverables and conditions, will prevent.
      What it won't do, however, is prevent someone from filing a chargeback. It might prevent them from winning, but it doesn't prevent them from filing.
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  • Profile picture of the author enterpryzman
    I have had this several times on my clickbank account and some classifieds sites I own. The first one ticked me off but, it's not worth getting upset. It is part of doing business with the masses, not everyone else is fair and moral.

    Sorry this hits you at a rough time and I hope it gets better for you from a financial standpoint.

    Enterpryzman
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  • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
    Thanks for sharing your story. Unscrupulous people will take advantage of Paypal's dispute policy and put the screw job to you. There are some hard lessons that we can learn from here. 1) Have a strong contract. 2) Deliver the goods physically as well as electronically for seller protection, 3) Don't take nickel and dime jobs if at all possible. Keep control of the clients website with your host and do not let them touch anything themselves. It all goes through you, under predetermined times and conditions. 4) Steer clear of payment processors where charge backs can happen. 4) Document communication and deliver everything you say you will.

    Good luck my man, onto the next one.
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  • Profile picture of the author monsterrager
    An unauthorized charge carries more weight than the other types. If they go that route its kinda hard to prove otherwise on your part.
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  • Profile picture of the author Voasi
    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

    Amazing what a contract, complete with specified deliverables and conditions, will prevent.
    We have a contract we use and yet, this still happens. Best thing we have done is take clients to small claim court. We also have included in our contract they sign if their are any disputes, that they need to fly to our court house in Cali to resolve... that helps.

    As John Durham says, it's really part of playing..."Cost of doing business". We try to conduct every part of our business with contracts, emails and CRM so that if we do get a chargeback from a client, we have all the necessary documents to fight the claim. We haven't lost.

    As for Paypal, we've only had to fight it once and it didn't go over well. You have to consistently call paypal to get any updates on the reversal. It's usually a 6-8 week process...which COMPLETELY sucks... but no way around that. Best thing to do is to not use Paypal anymore and use merchant account/Authorize.net or only take checks and use something like CheckMAN Check Printing Software - Take checks by phone, by fax, and online to setup recurring checks over the phone.
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  • Profile picture of the author monsterrager
    One of the problems with going to small claims courts is they can take everything you say or present as evidence and simply say hey the other person is more believable to me so they win. Had that happen to me over some rental property. Tenant did over 2k dmg to my property and took them to small claims court over it. Went into court thinking i was prepared with pictures and receipts but the judge simply brushed all that aside and claimed i was being too picky and that i was to expect damages when someone moves out of an apartment. 2K worth is not normal wear and tear for 1 year in a residential rental property IMHO. Tenant got off scott free. Flame off sry
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  • Profile picture of the author Jimian
    Yeah, it is a bitter pill to swallow...but let's focus on the bigger lesson here. ...

    I would change your entire MODEL of business.

    Pre-make, pre-rank websites with your generic domain city/industry.com (ex.) and LEASE it out. Way less hassles.

    Now YOU own the domain, the website, the content...and now THEY play by YOUR rules.

    If someone cops out, add a new customers name and number.

    Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
    Always have a contract in place.

    Always have a contract in place.

    Always have a contract in place.

    Look this is what happens when you lay down with dogs. If the guy was being a pain prior to paying you - what made you think he was going to be any different afterwords?

    I know it sucks but chalk it up to a life lesson and move on. Also let this be an example of what happens when you let others dictate the sale to you.

    NEVER go below your minimum price for ANYONE.

    If you can't afford me - then someone else will.

    Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author atrbiz
    ...I've had a similar experience with Paypal, it def sucks! I now try and push for a check first before CC.
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    • Profile picture of the author klittle
      I agree with Tim

      My thought is you should have a very specific list of what you will allow when building sites.

      The number of pages, limit the number of changes under your initial fee.
      If they want more they will have to pay additional for it. Etc.

      Often times we will take on tasks that will not be worth the hassle.

      If things start to go out of your described services. Stop and have them find someone else.

      Have specific guidelines that you follow. Once things go outside them you should see problems coming.

      You are in control. Choose your clients carefully.

      Keith
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  • Profile picture of the author alanborcic
    I feel for you man, this is good lesson for all of us.
    Never lower your price, never take any client, never work without contract
    I wish you luck with your battle
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    • Profile picture of the author SamyE
      Wait till this new consumer Protection Oversight fully kicks in and set up and establishes rules, policies, and procedures. Many see it as almost entirely consumer biased and pre disposed to not siding with the merchant.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ehanson
        I agree with others about upfront payment and having a contract.

        Always have agreements for a paid service that you're doing for someone in writing. Have a contract ready to go when you walk into a meeting with some, email it to them, print out a copy and have both of your signatures on it so their is no "he said, she said" business involved in your business.

        And try get your clients to pay upfront or at least half upfront by check. If they try to talk you down in price tell them to have a good day and walk. I've learned clients who try to talk your price down are a hassle to deal with- they want you to do everything under the sun for pennies on the dollar.

        If they ask "How do I know you won't rip me off?" when you tell them about your upfront payment policy refer to that contract and tell them it ensures everything will get done that is written down by each date which they already paid for upfront. If they still don't want to pay or continue to try to get you to lower your price run, don't walk out of the door. You're going to have to turn down clients so try not to put yourself in the position where you're desperate for clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author cma01
    DMCA him for copyright infringement if he is using your work without permission (i.e. payment). If he doesn't take it down (or pay someone to do it)
    I think the one thing that would complicate this is that CC used the client's template. Of course the guy is using work he didn't pay for, but a Wordpress theme is a Wordpress them and unless you had references to your design business in the theme comments, how could you really dispute that?

    Yes, you should have a contract.

    But I think the root issue is that he is just a plain crappy client.

    When I first started my business, I met someone who built her graphic design business from ELance. So I tried it for awhile. My experience was that the majority of people looking for service providers wanted the moon for a song. Yes, there were exceptions, and I did get some long term clients from there, but I didn't want to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of filtering out jackasses.

    The same thing with Craigslist. One of my clients said that they had posted for help on Craiglist first and didn't get a response. So I thought that it might be a good idea to keep an eye out on the postings.

    It's the same mentality. They might as well just post, "I'm cheap. I don't value you and your time and expect me to be a complete PITA."

    If they were serious and could afford to pay a professional, I don't think that they would be looking on Craigslist to find one.

    When you're building a business, I know it's tough. But you need to set your business practices and never waver from them. The type of people you *want* to work with will respect it. If they have a problem with it, those are the types of clients you want to stay away from.

    Go to all the networking meetings you can and get your name out there. Start building your list and send out regular valuable information. When people know who you are, know that you know what you're doing, and know that they can trust you not to rip them off, they will be coming to you and you won't have to deal with people like this scam artist.
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  • Profile picture of the author CaliChristian
    dude that really sucks, that's why running a online biz is so high risk because anybody can receive a $1.5k product and as soon as it's delivered the consumer can totally commit fraud and just charge back the transaction.
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