Results don't add up ?

Backlinks are usually the answer. Add backlinks from strong websites.

Hugh

Yes, you should get high PR do follow backlinks, I would look around for someone that offers a service if you don't want to do it yourself.

First, make sure you have on-page optimization down. Keywords in title, description, H1/H2 Tags, bolded, italicized, as anchor text to another page on the website, and that the keywords appear about 2% - 3% of the time.

Once you have the on-page stuff down, you really need to start building backlinks. It is important to remember that not all backlinks are created equal. First, make sure they are DoFollow and ideally on a high PR site. Most important though is to use the anchor text of your keyword. For example if the keyword you're ranking for is "Plumber City" then the back links should link to the site with the next "Plumber City". Just keep building backlinks and the rank will rise.

-Ben

Some ideas,

Outsource to someone like mattlaclear here on WF who has a track record. Or, sink your money and time into some slightly lower volume keywords that you CAN rank number one for within a matter of days or weeks... Once you are ranked you can even create a directory site if you cant get the price you want from a single client, and sell directory listings to multiple clients on that site.

Today that business model (directory) is evidently stronger even than what it was back in 2000, only with the more advanced evolved knowledge we have today, you can do more with a directory site now, and provide more value to customers and charge higher prices.

Lastly,

Dont mean to sound like a broken record Bob, but "findlaw" is charging people $1,000 per month and up, and all they are is basically a bower style directory...thousands of attorneys pay them thousands per month, and I found 10 excellent keywords in my attorney's city that findlaw isnt even capitalizing on, plus they have him linked up all wrong, his adoption law link and criminal law link, and bankruptcy law link on the findlaw listngs, all go to the adoption law page on his site, they dont lead to the relevant pages... Still he pays them a grand a month and gets positive roi... Can you imagine getting a positive roi on a site that hosts 200 attorneys in your medium sized city?

It would seem there isnt enough business to go around but apparently there is. Even more shocking is when you see all the key phrases that alot of these directories arent even competing for.

What Im saying is even if there is huge competition you can compete for different search phrases and usually find some really good ones that arent being capitalized on in most cities.

Maybe you can even focus on more "ignorant" towns, where the competition is weaker...

Lots of ways to skin a cat when you are determined about the outcome already.

If you can get them ranked for a few maybe less broad keywords that are still good volume and no one else is capitalizing on them strongly, then your site will have just as much value to them (if not MORE) and have a bigger chance of staying number one than those other directories.

Also, is the first listing on google an exact match domain for the keyword? That could affect as well and make it more relevant depending on the search phrase. I would find some exact match domain names for your client and somehow if you havent already but you probably already have. Also, lastly, I have noticed that there is a big difference when you are using higher quality backlinks, but you said you already checked that.

Hope you find something in here that gives you a second wind.

That happened to me with a landscaper. It took me months to get them on page one in Google Places and there were some that had no website that were on there. Drove me crazy. Maybe have someone you trust review the site and your GP listing. If you are solid with everything being said here - it will just be time and more backlinks. DO they have any reviews?

I really hate the way Big G is always messing with an algorithm. Has anyone noticed if Bing or YH is focusing on the whole "relevant content" issue?

I have a buddy in the Healthcare niche that was ranked consistently at #2 in G. Now he got the slap down to page 5 or something like that on G....but he's at #1 and #2 on YH and Bing.

How many sites have you ranked on the first page of Google prior to this? If you are learning the ropes with these guys then you have to work hard and be patient. Track everything you do. Three months is like the blink of an eye for real SEO. I know that there are tons of courses out there saying rank this way in a week or that way in a day or whatever. Most times, those results are based on something that the seller lucked into - not a method that they have used hundreds or thousands of times. You have to put in the hours to get it. Malcolm Gladwell said it takes 10,000 hours. I tend to agree.

Can it be done? Yes. But it is not as easy as most of the WSO peddlers say.

I've read it a few times, that one of the most important things with SEO is managing your client's expectations (I understand your not getting paid until you get them to rank better).

Backlinking is really important. Sites will move up the rankings that aren't optimized if they are backlinked with decent PR. I only do backlinking to my client's sites with PR2 or higher.

It does take months to get certain keywords to rank especially depending on the competition. And sometimes it doesn't seem to make sense why certain sites rank higher than yours. But you have to take into account the domain age, obviously PR, also referring domains have an affect.

Just keep at it and it will move.

I meant for organic serps - sorry...

Search Engine Optimization (SEO) - Webmaster Tools Help

Google specifically warns against the contract/agreement that you have created. Why would you put yourself in such a situation? You don't control search engines or website rankings, yet you don't get paid till the site is on the first page for a specific keyword... I really hope something clicked in your head.

Next time you get an agreement/contract, make sure it's not for rankings. Sorry, but thats the breaks. Live and learn. Now go get a new client and make up the losses.

--edit--
A common quote in the Offline section is "Don't try to rank a website that you had no part in creating".

Meta this, and title that. You don't have any on page SEO if you didn't set it up yourself. Has anyone mentioned that Search Engine Bots don't read Flash. They read HTML, XML, and dirivitives. They don't care about your CSS, PHP, or Flash. Thus, your website isn't optimized any better than the ones you are trying to outrank.

Get him to buy a BOTW link and a Yahoo link. A Chamber of Commerce link will help too. Those links cost a bit, but they are very powerful - especially if you have built him some quantity of links, adding in some quality will help.

Yes, just build links, a few every day. On site optimization will only get you so far. You have to build links, at least from my experience. Time is another factor too, but nothing will beat consistent link building. I use Jon Leger's Webcomp Analyst and it does a pretty good job of showing why some sites are higher than others. When in doubt, its probably the number of incoming links with the right anchor text.

You and 90% of the other people in the Offline Forums aren't getting it.

It's not about building websites, claiming Google Places listings, creating fan pages, or getting on the first page of Google.

Lets assume you get a meeting with a new client named Bob. Bob owns a small store that sells 'stuff', and provides related services to that 'stuff'.

1. You enter the meeting and discuss SEO and <Insert service here> and how it can help their website get better rankings.

2. You enter the meeting and show them the pitfalls of their current web presence. You show them what is wrong with their website, and what could be done to make it better. You tell them to go to Google and search for keywords related to 'Stuff', and watch as they can't find their own webpage. You show them Google Places, and how it's at the top of their recent search. Then you explain how Facebook could be used to keep in contact with Bobs clients, bringing them back to spend more money on 'stuff' and related services, and how you can help them set all of this up.

Which do you think a business owner is going to go for? They don't care about their website. They don't care about rankings. They don't care about SEO, Facebook, Google, or any online crap. What they care about is their phone ringing, and people walking in through the door.

If you're still selling services to businesses, then your just a commodity and they can find someone better and cheaper than you to provide those services.

Once you start offering what business owners want, you will find that it is much easier to work with them.

Selling him SEO when what he really needs is a non flash website is not a great idea (I'm just guessing from what you have said, I obviously have no more info about the situation).

Google likes fast sites, Google likes accessible sites, Google likes sites that work on mobile. Because users like them.

Remember to sell the client what they need. What they want is good, what they need is better.

ok so it sounds like you guys lay on the B*S* thick when it comes to selling SEO/Marketing to oflline biz?

"strategic, multi purpose, organinc,LSI Search engine positioning for maximum customer interaction and acquistion"$1,000 and $500 per month to "manage" = Buy a few backlinks. $100 per month

"the use of social marketing, intergraton and communication to brand your business name for optimal sales and leads" $3,000+ = Set up facebook page $100

LOL. still if it works well done

Try to be patient and don't rush it. If you go backlink crazy then it will only put up a flag and take you longer.

Hire someone on the WF to get it done for you while you are still learning. At least you will get paid : )

Shawn

what I wanna kno is: has ur client received an increase in traffic from ur efforts? are u measuring the incoming calls/prospects? as someone mentioned above, at the end of the day a biz just wants their phone to ring more than before u came to them. if u have proof of that, that's more important on what u shud get paid for IMHO.

if ur not measuring that metric, it'd b good time to start tho...

good luck!

ps
my job is to bring traffic to their biz.. if the biz can't close on the traffic I bring, I tell them before I begin that they need to figure out that part of their biz. I also tell them I can help them figure out that part too if they needed (but it'd cost them )

Suggest you let him keep is slow, underperforming flash website, and build a second website on wordpress/xsitepro with some nice keywords in the domain. Then rank this. Or/and create a facebook page with an appropriate keyword in the URL, and rank this.

Explain to your client, trying to rank his website is like trying to get an over weight , chain smoking ,alcholic to win a marathon.

You don't have to rebuild his site with new sales copy and link campaigns. He has a domain, you just need to remove the flash and replace it with a CMS and Plugins to emulate the flash (Or embed the flash into HTML/XML so SE Bots have something to see).

You don't need skills to BS people, and you shouldn't want to. Be honest with them, and SHOW them how people do searches in the area. Lets say your sink springs a leak and you need a plumber. How are you going to find one that will do the job correctly, is affordable, and can get there quickly before your floor is damage? Now take that and ask the same type of question to your client. Then show them how they can put their business in the way of that type of search, even if it isn't via their website.

For local businesses, a website isn't part of the marketing structure. It's the base that connects the Online world to the Offline world. It doesn't need to rank for anything. It just needs to inform visitors of its purpose, and allow for easy contact with that business.

Off-Site Marketing (Such as Google Places, Facebook, Etc) is what should be your major focus. These are the things that will bring visitors to the website. If the website has the information people are looking for, and it's easy to contact the business after being informed, those readers will start contacting the business.

Theres no BS here. No lies to get people to sign on. The point is, you are trying to get more people into that business, so the owner and their staff can convert them into sales. You want to be honest, and you want to explain how they could set everything up on their own to save money. Are they going to? No! They don't have time, and they want someone that knows how to do it correctly. Thats where you come in.

Lets say you own a small service shop. A marketer comes in and tells you about Websites, SEO, Google, Facebook, SMS, and all these other terms that make no sense to you. Are you going to hire them? Most likely not.
Now lets say a marketer comes in and they say, "I want to help you generate more sales, and this is how you can do it." They go on to explain how a website acts as a 24/7 employee (Sharing the information that has been provided. This resembles training your employees.) Then they ask you to do a search for your service specific keywords, and show you that google places is right there, and how you aren't there. Then they show you how you can add your website to your printed media (Business Cards, Brochures, Flyers). Think you would hire them? I would.

Theres no lies, no hype, no BS. Just the truth, and examples that show you are correct. If this doesn't click with you, I suggest driving around town to look for applications. If you can't be honest with your clients, then you shouldn't be in this business. If you'r promising rankings, your just another bottom feeder that is giving Offline Marketers a bad name. No offense, but thats just how it is.

Are you trying to get their website traffic, or are you trying to get their google places ranked? If your aiming for Google Places, then you need to fill in EVERY bit of information you can. This includes all 10 pictures, a video, and a coupon. If you leave anything blank on the form, then you aren't optimized.

Once you have all the information posted, they will rank above every competitor in their area that is not completely filled out. Once you are at this point, the only way to get higher positioning is to get positive reviews.

Lets say you have 2 businesses that are competing. Both have completely filled in Google Places page. One has a 5 star, well written review. The other has 100 backlinks from PR 8 websites, with keyword text in the linktext. Know who will win the first spot... It's the one with a review. Google Places doesn't care about backlinks, they care about CONTENT.

If you are trying to get a Google Places page to get in the top list, you should get customers to write reviews on the Google Places listing.

The Googlebot does not read Flash unless it is in the .ws file, which Google has explained is EXTREMELY difficult to rank.

Google suggests only using Flash where it is needed, and keeping your content in HTML or XML format. You can read more at Googles blog, found here Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Best uses of Flash

I'm actually trying to learn something when I ask this, are the sites that rank above him "older" and does that play a factor ?

Would I be right in saying that you have read lots of SEO guides, they all mentioned about on page optimisation, which you have not implemented because this is a flash website, plus there is the problem of the page load speed.

I cannot understand why you say the results dont add up, the strategies only work if you actually implement them

There is a massive difference between having the right backlinks and just getting some links. G-gle has certainly made it harder, but after working with a building and trade directory that was the number 1postion in g-gle for 3 years for over 10,000 local keywords ( plumber/ area - electrician/area ) for just only 3 months, we got it back to the rankings, just by adjusting some keywords and doing ontopic frontpage backlinks. Backlinks are great but the right backlinks are crucial.

Princewally,
You can say what you want, and give all the personal experiences you have had. The truth is, it all comes down to facts. Fact is, you aren't google. I have provided content given directly from Googles Blog to show that SEBots only read Flash when it is in a .ws file, and even then it is difficult to rank.

This is the #1 suggestion on the previous link I gave. Straight from Googles text to your eyes. Sure, the page is a few years old, and Google has made many advances. But, if Google had made changes to this, don't you think they would update their information to suggest that?

Google only holds back information that they don't want released. There is no reason for them to hold information on their bots knowledge of Flash or other Rich Media languages. Why? Because their bots don't care about Rich Media. They care about Content.


Bobster,

As an extra boost to what I gave you in our PM Conversation, I also want to suggest that you bookmark the link above, and show it to your client. Once that person realizes that Flash is not an optimum language for his website, he may be more willing to allow you to do a re-design on his website. He has no active media on the site, so Flash really shouldn't be used.
Go in confident. You know his problem. You can prove his problem. You can solve his problem! And, if he doesn't agree... You really could do better with someone willing to learn and listen to the suggestions of a professional (Thats you).

Did you read the entire page that you quoted. Google states the following at the bottom of the page.
I have seen the site that this entire debate is about, and there is NO RICH MEDIA on the site. There is absolutely no reason for the site to be created entirely out of JS and Flash. As for giving out bad information, I suggest you read what you are attempting to use to fight your battles, as you have just made yourself look like a fool.

@bobster would you mind pm'ing you URL to the site your trying to promote so I can give it a full review?

I no longer do SEO for clients but doesn't mean to say I don't know what I am doing or that I no longer keep up with SEO techniques, I have my own methodology that's tried an tested and gets results - i have also had to work with 100% flash sites before too, if I can help or suggest anything to help a fellow warrior I will.

One question I will ask is how is the flash embedded into the page?

Regarding flash, This is only 2 months old. Flash and other rich media files - Webmaster Tools Help

@bobster0007

Was trying to reach out to you to help but cant without an URL or more information about the site from you.

The best advice i can give to you with regards to using flash is consider the way you are embedding it. I highly recommend you search for and use a little snippet of code called SWFOBJECT to embed your flash files and read thoroughly how to implement the alternative content div tag, then think outside of the box how you should best use it with regards to SEO implementation. This can make a significant difference to ranking a full flash site in the SERPS if approached in the right way.

If you want to get really technical you actually place your entire textual content in HTML and have flash pull it into the flash file.

To clarify the reason for using SWFOBJECT - when the google searchbot comes across the javascript swfobject it ignores it but reads the content within the alternative content div, including the content in it's simplest form but formatting it in basic HTML with maximum on page optimization you can give google something to get its teeth stuck into - where as before google would have been presented with pretty much nothing on the page to consider worthy of being ranked in the SERPS.

Hope that makes sense.

PS Yes this does work and will help you in the SERPS if done properly.

Cheers,

Jay

Hi Bobster,

I have to agree with Amber, after looking at the site it does seem to be using something similar to SWFOBJECT however i don't know how flexible it is and feel that the flash site is impacting your ranking in the SERPS. As someone else mentioned i see no reason for it to be a flash site either.

At the end of the day you are the professional in this scenario if he is not prepared to listen to your advice, and you are not getting paid till you rank on the first page, then i would suggest to him he use someone else. And i guarantee it won't be the first time someone has said that to him.

I would never do SEO based on being paid after you rank - what happens if they dont pay you after you have them on 1st page? Unless you are hosting them it is VERY difficult to undo what you did... If you want to try and work with a client in a similar manner say you will refund them if you cannot make page 1 google after x amount of time.

For me i got out of the SEO game at the end of last year - figured get out whilst your on top... with all the changes Google is making and with them pushing organic listings further and further down beneath the fold it's not worth it... i would much rather do highly optimized paid inclusion, and we no longer do it for clients, why make them money and put up with all their BS when we can do our campaigns and make several times the amount of $$$

Cheers,

Jay

I just read thru the entire thread and now I would have to agree with some of the fellow posters. Is this person a freind or family member? Just wondering why you would agree to getting paid after the fact?

When business owners tell me "Oh, it shouldn't be to hard to get me ranked for this or that"....I respond with "yes it is". I don't care what the keyword, service, etc is...this takes work. In my proposals/contracts, I make it clear of what is expected out of my clients, what I need from them, etc.

Just my thoughts and as my previous post mentioned.PM if you have any questions.

James