Some Thoughts & Questions About Sales Training

19 replies
**WARNING** This might annoy you! I'm taking a risk in frankly sharing my experience, and you may not like it! Remember that I'm interested in your opinion.

In answer to the standard “What do you do?”, I used to tell regular people that I was a sales trainer. In return, I got a mix of:

* Blank looks.

* “Oh.” <no comprehension>

* Outright hostility (“So you teach people how to manipulate others?”).

After awhile, I realized something. The average member of the public has never worked for an engineering or technical firm, an IT firm, a grocery wholesaler, or office products supplier, for instance. They are completely unaware that there is an army of professional salespeople sallying forth from these organizations, out to do business with other companies.

They equate “salespeople” to appliance, electronic, and mall stores; telemarketers and car lots: direct or consumer sales.

The fact that there is another, different level of professional salesperson out there is completely beyond their experience.

Of course, most people have no idea how groceries arrive on the shelves of their local supermarket, either, and think that trains are quaint relics of another time (those little 40’ tractor-trailers don’t carry enough food for a day, and your city would starve in a week without trains).

After I got over being dumbfounded that this was the common perception, I quit saying that I was a sales trainer when I was talking with a member of the general public. Instead, I started replying that I was a business development consultant. This was a good fit, since I also did copywriting and marketing/branding work, and it avoided the incomprehension.

So here we are on the Warrior Forum, where people often have more knowledge than the average bear. What is your perception:



* Does “sales training” make any sense at all?



* Is its value confusing, or clear?



* What do you think you would get out of sales training?


Very interested in your responses!
#questions #sales #sales training #thoughts #training
  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    Jason,

    I think the term 'business development consultant' works/sounds better. It spells out more specifically what you do. You do consulting for developing businesses.

    As part of what you do, you do 'sales training' for the businesses sales people, in addition to copywriting and marketing/branding work.

    To me, sales training does sound a bit ambiguous.

    Hope that helps.

    Thanks,

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Thanks for the feedback, John.

    What's interesting is that "Sales Trainer" is a well-understood role and job title in the corporate world. I beat out trainers up and down the east coast to be offered a trainer role for a franchise business in Wilmington, NC last year (to train the franchisees), only to turn it down for another offer. Search for "sales trainer" jobs on LinkedIn and many will come up.

    So I am certain there's a disconnect and high level of misunderstanding between the general public and what sales trainers do.

    A funny thing is that getting small business owners to admit they need sales training, when they're going bankrupt due to lack of revenue, is like getting them to admit they need psychological help.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Sales training works if selling your services to car dealerships and such. The owners and managers are old school. They want it to sound old school. They want you to talk about grosses and crap that honestly don't sell cars.

    I don't care how much value you build if Big A's Chevy down the road is selling something similar for less the customers will learn over time that you are over priced.

    The classic sales trainers teach crap based on another era. If you are over priced it doesn't matter how much value you build in the car. But if the customer builds a relationship with you he will feel bad buying from someone else. Often they will pay more just because they want to buy from you.

    The car is the same as another car. The value in it you build only helps the next guy sell it on price. Build a relationship and you will always sell more.

    Also if you are pitching to people who want to learn how to sell calling yourself a sales training works as well.

    In most others cases Business or Sales Consultant of some form is the way to brand yourself.

    And sorry for the tangent in the middle there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    See, this is what I'm talking about. Sales trainers and sales training are used by big, progressive corporations and the training these days revolves around things called Relationship Selling, SPIN Selling, and Consultative Selling. They have nothing to do with the outdated Transactional model you describe car dealerships using.

    Thanks for the feedback!
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Bucker
      My friends I am a sales trainer and one area I specialize in probably the most is car sales. The reason is for the very fact that you have pointed out. The ways of the average trainer in the car industry are outdated.

      Truth is most trainers repackage the old training, put a new shining bow on top and call it new. It is a mix of product knowledge, psychology and a whole lot of relationship built of trust, real trust.

      To assist you on your case against car dealers and how their old methods are putting a damper on all training if you would allow the following I will explain how it is mess up from what car lots call the “meet and greet” which is the beginning of the process. They have it wrong from the beginning and still somehow want the trust of clients. It’s insane.


      What is wrong with the car dealers greeting.


      The foundation is what is wrong. Who do we see as the enemy, the IRS, the dentist office, and car lots. When you see a salesman coming toward you from thirty to forty feet out do you think friend or foe. You think foe every single time. Here comes the enemy. The salesman knows you think that way.


      What is the first thing he does as the enemy? He gets right up in your personal space and takes your space away from you. Now sometimes I don’t like my friend in my personal space let alone someone I consider my enemy. He doesn’t stop there, after taking away “personal” space he then obligates you to shake his hand. Personal touch is even more invasive. As if that is not enough he then gets more personal and wants your name immediately.


      He has now obligate three things from you and has not given you anything of value yet and wonders why you are so uncomfortable with him. There is law in psychology that is used by big businessmen. It is the law of obligation and reciprocity. This law states, if you give someone enough value for something they feel obligated to give you something back.


      Problem is that car salesmen are doing just the opposite they are adding no value and obligation three things from the customer, very person things within the first 5 seconds of meeting them. Now I do not teach against handshakes, getting names etc. I just teach timing and proper methods of building real trust.

      The dealerships that hire me however are different than the norm and thus have different results. I cannot work with every dealers because of the exact mentality you both have mentioned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Yes, car dealerships are terrible for the "wolf pack", which is even worse than you describe: a half-dozen commission salespeople, who were clustered near the door a moment ago, come rushing towards you. "Can I help you!" "Can I help you?"

    A business owner or manager definitely has to be open to a different way of doing things, or sales training won't get a foothold there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Bucker
      Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

      I'm seeing double!

      a half-dozen commission salespeople, who were clustered near the door a moment ago, come rushing towards you. "Can I help you!" "Can I help you?"

      .


      Ahh yes, that scene is way to familiar and burned into the minds and heart of the American public. This is one of the many many reasons I have my work cut out for me. I choose to look at it like this; the whole car buying experience for most is a big problem. The more problems you can solve for people the more success.

      Being that the auto industry has so many problems concerning the dealerships themselves and also the customers I have job security. With most trainers training old school methods with no real change creates even more need and work for me.

      I love it when I orchestrate a series of question and answers that help a salesman understand how disconnected they are to the public as a whole today. When a light comes on and they say to me, “goodness I have been doing that to my customers” lets me know I have solved at least one problem for the next customer that walks on a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue Bruce
    Is its value confusing, or clear? imo "sales trainer" doesn't sound as professional as "business development consultant" A sales trainer, generally, is an employee for one of those big office supply companies or mega businesses. A "business develpment consultant" sounds more like a self employed business person.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Yeah car salesman are so narrow in focus that they couldnt possibly understand everything a "consultant" does... :rolleyes:

    Telemarketers focus is pretty narrow too...

    I learned that when I had guys with Marketing degrees sitting in my booths working for me at 8 dollars per hour, who couldnt sell their way out of a paper bag...

    But somehow they made me sound so ignorant to myself with all of their fresh out of the text book terminology... Kind of primitive even...

    I figured they were just trying to help me though...

    I also found it ironic how I dropped out in 8th grade and had to train them to sell... but I was doing it all wrong in their mind... Maybe I was missing something I thought?

    Later, I found it just as ironic that David, my best friend of 20 years, besides Michael who is my very best friend of FORTY years, created a 300 million dollar manufacturing company from the ground up.

    I would occasionally sit in his board meetings while a staff of guys with marketing degrees, full of text book terminology, tried to tell him he had built a 300 million dollar company the wrong way...?

    That was certainly odd... but they seemed to know their material.

    Strangely, the one who landed him the Walmart contract was an uneducated one legged baptist preacher... he did it by "cold calling" out of a wholesale directory...

    All the other execs thought the baptist preacher was so "crude"... but he did 10 mill per year in sales, and he was the one David chose to take to all the major meetings....

    I think having those guys on staff did more for Davids ego than anything, while the ignorant one legged baptist preacher did more for his accounts and check book.

    It made me wonder why Paul ( the preacher) didnt know all the stuff the other execs knew yet he was out selling them, on an international level...? Hmmm.... weird.

    Paul was sending out 1000 truckloads per year to major chains all over the world with a wholesale directory and a phone...while they were giving demographically and statistically correct reasons why they couldnt sell without more financial cooperation to accommodate their comprehensive strategies

    They sure sounded smart, I know that!

    Whats most ironic is how some of guys with Marketing Degrees there always wanted to pigeon hole me as a mere telemarketing trainer, however diplomatic and politely condescending in their approach... while David took my advice...

    I'll never figure out why that belief was so important to them...?

    This was becoming a pattern.

    As mentioned, the smart guys even in my OWN company did that... even though I had hired them to work for for 10 bucks per hour because they couldnt find a job to match their degree, or create one for themselves?

    I thought that was a good thing right? Helping them get a paycheck?

    Maybe they thought it was backwards? :confused:

    Interestingly, none of them were happy being telemarketers, and even more interestingly hardly any of them could sell and ended up leaving because they couldnt keep up production, but they were ALL smarter than me... and especially smarter than a narrowly focused car salesman.

    Most all of them wanted to be trainers too ... in fact, I cant think of a single one who didnt aspire to that.

    They routinely suggested that their education was grounds for being promoted to manager, and that the reason they couldnt perform is because they were cut out for bigger things than "selling", and that I wasnt utilizing their obvious knowledge and skill set properly.

    Have you guys ever met anyone like that?

    My answer was always... "When you can sell as well as this high school drop out across the floor, then I will let you manage him".

    Now I think something must be amiss with all of this because...I have even out marketed marketers with 10 times my education right here in the warrior forum...

    Should I be doing that? Maybe someone with more knowledge can educate me here....Is it against the text books? I dont want to appear ignorant or anything, like a mere car sales trainer... you know?

    Hopefully Im being subtle enough that my point is being made without pigeon holing anyone. I sure wouldnt want to make myself appear smarter than I am at the expense of others who are less civilized..., what with all this crafty language I have learned here...

    Just some thoughts inspired by this thread...

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post


    They equate “salespeople” to appliance, electronic, and mall stores; telemarketers and car lots: direct or consumer sales.
    The shame!

    Wheres my lawn chair? I need to make a video!

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post


    The fact that there is another, different level of professional salesperson out there is completely beyond their experience.
    Wow! Do tell...this is so exciting!

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post


    Of course, most people have no idea how groceries arrive on the shelves of their local supermarket, either, and think that trains are quaint relics of another time (those little 40’ tractor-trailers don’t carry enough food for a day, and your city would starve in a week without trains).
    OMG you are right everyone is so ignorant of trains carrying commercial cargo! I feel like I can sell websites better ALREADY! Keep going!

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post


    After I got over being dumbfounded that this was the common perception, I quit saying that I was a sales trainer...
    I dont blame you for that!

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

    Instead, I started replying that I was a business development consultant. This was a good fit, since I also did copywriting and marketing/branding work, and it avoided the incomprehension.
    Yes the ignorance of the common person must be so deplorable! Tell us about all your clients! This is amazing!

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

    **WARNING** This might annoy you! I'm taking a risk in frankly sharing my experience,...
    Dont worry, you didnt annoy anyone kanj... At least not as much as I just did!

    Although I was a bit disappointed....I thought it was going to be some interesting stories of your many sales training experiences, maybe some case examples of some of the characters you have run into in the sales training field.... (Oops I meant "consulting")

    But I enjoyed reading your experience of surveying people... and I learned some... well... cool marketing consultant terminology :confused: Oh, and I found your theories about public perception to be interesting also, however superfluous.

    Thanks.

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post



    Very interested in your responses! (and if you're a successful IMer, look at my sig please.)
    BTW Paul Myers, the guy known as Zen Redneck here... could teach you how to get those responses without asking for them , like he has taught many warriors, its pretty advanced though... http://www.talkbiz.com for a higher education in real world internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author aspectiit
    Thanks for sharing such a valuable experiences of marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      John, you've proven to me that you're in one of the groups. Refusing to acknowledge that their might be another one might be a misstep?

      You want to knock my videos? Why? Most people learn by videos these days, not reading. They are quick and easy to make. And I have adopted a low-key approach and surroundings in those so that people can feel comfortable. My nice furniture and other stuff is 3000 miles away in another country, in storage, and bringing it here will cost over $5000. I had to sit pretty much a full year of my life out waiting for Immigration and work status approval. Would you have the courage to make the move I made??

      You ask who my clients are. If you took the time to go to my freelance writing site, you'd see a few examples. One of them is a fastest growing company in the southeast, and they rely almost 100% on the qualified inbound leads I drive to them as their sole writer.

      Also, you can look here.

      And here. Get full access to my linkedin profile, and you'll see I tend to update some of the more interesting work. Not sure why you keep trying to attack my credibility.

      I was a plant manager with 35 people working for me when I was 25. I have considerable high level civic volunteer experience. Some of my clients here on WF can tell you I've shared recent recorded calls I've made on behalf of other clients with them, so they can hear what I'm doing. I've turned companies around and driven tens of thousands of inbound marketing leads to clients over the past couple of years. I've researched and written business plans, grant applications, manuals, marketing material, website copy and technical articles that got funding for, explained, and sold for my clients. I write phone scripts for IT companies for $1000+ and provide proof of this on my site. I have managed over 150 people and six department heads, and beat out everyone who applied from up and down the east coast for a rare sales trainer job in Wilmington, only to turn it down for another role (which turned out to be a mistake, but it lead to me being here). I can tell you that there's something missing in business the way it's done here in the south; there's hardly any manufacturing and sometimes I wonder how the whole economy is supported. I don't really have to prove anything to anyone.

      I'm not on WF to make money. My interests would be better served elsewhere; it's a lot easier to make money "out there" than "in here". I've given thousands and thousands of dollars worth of free expertise away. I think it's clear that I know what I'm talking about. I'm here to show people that there's a different way of selling than the only way they know. Not sure why you continually feel the need to attack. You and I do seem to have a very different idea on how marketing works. I'm not sure how, if you don't tell people what you want, you can get results. Also, you didn't answer my questions in the original post! :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Now, all that being said...what kind of stories were you interested in? I don't feel that there are "characters" to be trained...people are pretty similar overall in their reactions to this stuff.

    The first problem that comes up all the time is the "seminar." People attend these, get fired up, use the technique that they learned, and get better results. After a short time, though, they drop back into their comfort zone and forget about the new thing.

    Without ongoing *reinforcement*, new techniques will be forgotten by salespeople as they fall back into their comfort zone. As soon as the money they expect to make has been made, they stop generating activity that leads to success.

    The most common problem I see in training is in prospecting. When I schedule time to coach someone to call, they're enthusiastic; but when the actual time comes, here they are falling all over themselves finding excuses not to do it. I will sit in the room with, or sit on a muted conference call, to coach cold calling. People almost always need to be pushed over that hurdle. Funny thing is, after about 10 minutes they're calling away, happy as clams.

    Is this helpful?
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      I'm a little confused here, not that unusual for a Monday morning actually, but what is the reason that you have concern for what it is you tell people that you do.

      If "sales trainer" is something that your client base recognizes as being what they need, than that's what I would tell them. If it's Business Development Consultant is what they call it, and you recognize it as what you do, than you should be a Business Development Consultant.

      If it's not a business related issue, I don't really care if people can't comprehend what I say I do.
      Signature
      The big lesson in life, baby, is never be scared of anyone or anything.
      -- FRANK SINATRA, quoted in The Way You Wear Your Hat
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by David Miller View Post

        I'm a little confused here, not that unusual for a Monday morning actually, but what is the reason that you have concern for what it is you tell people that you do.

        If "sales trainer" is something that your client base recognizes as being what they need, than that's what I would tell them. If it's Business Development Consultant is what they call it, and you recognize it as what you do, than you should be a Business Development Consultant.

        If it's not a business related issue, I don't really care if people can't comprehend what I say I do.
        Actually David Your Law firm is the client Im working on right now! Im outta here... I guess kanj isnt picking up what you are laying down either.

        Good editing in the OP there Jason, and wise for cutting out the sig point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Bucker
      Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

      Without ongoing *reinforcement*, new techniques will be forgotten by salespeople as they fall back into their comfort zone. As soon as the money they expect to make has been made, they stop generating activity that leads to success.


      My friend, I totally agree with this. This is why I most recently started helping the area of car sales. Most sales people must have ongoing training. This is why I have an average of a minimum 12 month agreement with the dealers I assist. You know I most recently have trained car salespeople. I have taken my training to them for the every reasons you mention in all the above.

      I have trained somewhere between 600-800 salespeople, from selling websites, home electronics, door to door, furniture, talent recruiters, phone training , Product training etc. This only touches the areas of trainers needed in our world. I have some close friends who train in areas I have never approached, as is some of your areas.

      What I have experienced is that there is much need in every area for good trainers/coaches/ consultants or whatever we want to title ourselves. I do not believe that telemarketing trainers or car sales trainers or any others are less than another. It is not the field you train in, it is the individual trainer. I am happy to see that you my friend have taken your career seriously as a trainer/coach/consultant.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    ..... Sigh.....

    As far as getting responses without pointing to your sig:

    Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

    I'm not sure how, if you don't tell people what you want, you can get results. Also, you didn't answer my questions in the original post! :rolleyes:

    Its an advanced level of mastery... BASIC for Warriors, in fact its a rule if you read the rules and protocol NOT to point to your sig... Perhaps thats "incomprehensible", or a "Level beyond" what some people know... They usually find out right about the time their post gets deleted or they get banned for "Sig Pointing".

    Like I said its an advanced art beyond anything you are talking about here that is "common knowledge" to most of the ignorant people here at the GREATEST MARKETING FORUM ON EARTH!

    Im done, I have actual clients I need to do work for ATM. This was fun... and You obviously cant comprehend why I would attack someone who relegates telemarketers and car sales to a lower level that is oblivious to anything beyond itself...

    Not offended, just entertained. You forget you are at the WF, and have obviously bypassed the whole rules and protocol thing and went straight for soliciting in the forums... To any seasoned warrior, thats an offense... furthermore, sig pointing is a primitive form of generating responses... for amateurs.

    The only reason no senior has called you on it is because they arent reading your stuff. You are disrepescting the forum by ignoring its values.

    As for me, i wont even respond anymore... This is a waste of time... Im just having fun, you wouldnt know what to do with me if I took this any further, I think I have reached the limit of what you can comprehend here obviously.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      ..... Sigh.....

      As far as getting responses without pointing to your sig:




      Its an advanced level of mastery... BASIC for Warriors, in fact its a rule if you read the rules and protocol NOT to point to your sig... Perhaps thats "incomprehensible", or a "Level beyond" what some people know... They usually find out right about the time their post gets deleted or they get banned for "Sig Pointing".

      Like I said its an advanced art beyond anything you are talking about here that is "common knowledge" to most of the ignorant people here at the GREATEST MARKETING FORUM ON EARTH!

      Im done, I have actual clients I need to do work for ATM. This was fun... and You obviously cant comprehend why I would attack someone who relegates telemarketers and car sales to a lower level that is oblivious to anything beyond itself...

      Not offended, just entertained. You forget you are at the WF, and have obviously bypassed the whole rules and protocol thing and went straight for soliciting in the forums... To any seasoned warrior, thats an offense... furthermore, sig pointing is a primitive form of generating responses... for amateurs.

      The only reason no senior has called you on it is because they arent reading your stuff. You are disrepescting the forum by ignoring its values.

      As for me, i wont even respond anymore... This is a waste of time... Im just having fun, you wouldnt know what to do with me if I took this any further, I think I have reached the limit of what you can comprehend here obviously.
      I did not relegate telemarketers (which is work that I do on behalf of some clients) and car salespeople to a lower level. I said a different level. Different. You are very defensive.

      I did not solicit. I think you missed it when, for about a day, I had a line there asking if someone who knows a lot about IM would contact me because I had a specific question for THEM to help ME with. One did, I got the answer, and I took the line out from my sig. Just noticed, before reading your post here, that the query was still in my original post, and took it out.

      I don't think there is anything wrong with this.

      You know that I respect you and what you have to say, John; and I sure can be wrong sometimes; but there are some things you said above that I can't allow you to bowl me over about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Ah, but which term to use when?

    That's what I'm trying to figure out, and I'm getting a pretty clear response.
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