This could be the greatest credibility builder- EVER

27 replies
I have been so excited about the ability to co-author a book or training program with big names such as Brian Tracy.

Apparently, it is now very possible to buy your way into a partnership with him

Look at

http://infoproductpro.net/brian-replay-special/

Your name, face etc, will be printed NEXT to Brian Tracy, and you will be legally recognised as a co-author.

I have got a quick question, to those who can probably help out here.

Instead of paying the thousands of dollars to partner up with big names like these, the power of association by itself can be very convincing for offline prospects.

Look at the below book, being sold... He managed to place HIS photo on a book with 60 other experts including Dan Kennedy, Brian Tracy, Suze Orman, etc.

This is HUGE! Anyone can let us know how these books or their content can be used and sold in this way, to add credibility?

I mean, how does the guy below even manage to use the content legally and add his own photo to the cover?


www.mentorsandmillionaires.com
#builder #credibility #greatest
  • Profile picture of the author imranali84
    Bump- Any ideas to help out here?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6844625].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DesmondTan
    Originally Posted by imranali84 View Post

    I have been so excited about the ability to co-author a book or training program with big names such as Brian Tracy.

    Apparently, it is now very possible to buy your way into a partnership with him

    Look at

    http://infoproductpro.net/brian-replay-special/

    Your name, face etc, will be printed NEXT to Brian Tracy, and you will be legally recognised as a co-author.

    I have got a quick question, to those who can probably help out here.

    Instead of paying the thousands of dollars to partner up with big names like these, the power of association by itself can be very convincing for offline prospects.

    Look at the below book, being sold... He managed to place HIS photo on a book with 60 other experts including Dan Kennedy, Brian Tracy, Suze Orman, etc.

    This is HUGE! Anyone can let us know how these books or their content can be used and sold in this way, to add credibility?

    I mean, how does the guy below even manage to use the content legally and add his own photo to the cover?


    www.mentorsandmillionaires.com
    I think he interviewed the experts and compiled the information into a book of which he is the author
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6847406].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author PsycFa
    For that huge amount of money; i will pass.. Moreover I am the self-made type a pinch of narcissim.. hehe

    I would rather climb the stairs to the top by own works, dedication and sweat as in the process; you are moulding yourself into a successful person.

    Having a picky back to the top by associating yourself with a well known IMers can be a good strategy to use if you consider yourself as a full fledged IMers worthy to be in the same circle. Otherwise you are pushing an artificial image of yourself that will just pop sooner or later..

    My two cents..
    Signature

    The aim of marketing is to make selling superfluous. The aim of marketing is to know and understand the customer so well that the product or service fits him and sells itself.....

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6848185].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    I've got one for you.

    Who is Brian Tracy and why would I care if you wrote a book with him?

    Honestly I don't know. And I can bet the vast majority of the your prospects don't know. If you are in the great rich and self help niche I can see how you would know him but the rest of the world isn't

    Takeaways from this?
    1. Stop thinking about what would impress you and start thinking about your prospects. It doesn't matter what you like, want, or need. Unless you are selling to people with those same likes, wants, and needs those will not matter to them.

    2. It brings up the idea of relative expert. They don't know marketing experts. So you can be that expert to them. Think of someone you really admire for their marketing skills. Now realize that for your clients you can become the person they think about when asked that question.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6849179].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andrea Felder
    Hmm...This seems to be a trend I've seen a few people start doing this already. The idea is like being featured in a famous publication but when you have to pay for it seems more like an advertisement than anything else. I'm not a PR person but I guess if someone is looking for exposure and a way to associate themselves with the "profession" this is an option. It's just a matter of preference and I suppose in many cases ethics.

    ~Andrea
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6849228].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author equal
    I'm sure that far more better idea is to have your own book about subject that you are selling. You will get credibility booster when you will show your nice thick book. In most cases that's enough. Keep your head in this direction.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6849400].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      This is coming from years of experience selling books,marketing books, and promoting myself.

      These "co-authored" books are not going to help you at all.
      They are sold to people who think that the names of the other authors will sell the books. Maybe. But nobody is impressed when you write a chapter to an anthology. You will never see these books rank highly on Amazon, because few people buy them. In fact, the entire purpose of putting together these anthologies is to sell copies to the authors and charge them fees. This is another form of Vanity publishing.

      How many top selling business authors do you know that pay to be part of another author's anthology? None.

      Do you really want the names of well known authors to help you in selling a book and establishing credibility? Write your own short book. 100 pages is enough, you can do that in a week or two working on it for an hour a day.

      Publish it on Amazon's Createspace. It's free. You'll have your book on Amazon in a week. You pay nothing, and you get more than half of every book they sell.

      In your book, quote the other authors. And recommend their books. Do it in the introduction, and when you list your book, allow the readers to sample the first chapter and introduction. Your book will come up in Amazon searches...when the other authors are searched.

      But I've contributed to these books, and seen other fellow speakers do the same. They do nothing to build credibility. And nobody is impressed.
      But your own book? You as the sole author? Absolutely.

      Writing an E-book or a book on Kindle doesn't have the same effect. It has to be a physical book, that you can hold in front of you, that generates the response you want.

      Anthology books are books created to sell copies to the authors, not real book readers. Sorry.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6850112].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jon Martin
    He's got Chuck Norris.. OH DAYUM.
    Signature
    "Be the hero of your own movie."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6850351].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RussellMax
    Depends what niche you are targeting. If you are going to co-author a book get an author that's already an authority in your niche.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6851025].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steve Solem
    Equal and Claude have the right idea here, and thanks Claude for the tip about quoting other authors so you might be found when they're searched!

    I'm tweaking the final draft of my new "business card"...my marketing book listed on amazon and printed with create space, and for about $2.60 for a 150 page book, it'll be the most effective business card I've ever used.

    Anyone can get business cards that say "web expert" or "marketing expert" these days for just a few bucks, but I think when you can prove what you know by self publishing a book like this, it'll immediately elevate you to expert status in the minds of your prospects...much like public speaking can do for you too.

    A co-authoring opportunity with Brian tracy might sound nice on the surface, but as pointed out above, if people don't know who he is that might not help you...and if they do know who he is and don't think much of him, that won't help you either.

    Also, unless you're able to contribute and create a truly unique book in terms of content and look, once people see other people sharing the cover with him....they're going to wonder what's up and just how legit a co-author you are.

    I'll take my own unique book that provides value to prospects and gives them reasons to hire me over the competition over a co-branded book like this any day.

    Cheers!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6851643].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Steve Solem View Post

      I'm tweaking the final draft of my new "business card"...my marketing book listed on amazon and printed with create space, and for about $2.60 for a 150 page book, it'll be the most effective business card I've ever used.
      Steve; You sure have the right idea about why you get a book published.
      One other thing, when I get introduced to speak and and introduced as "Claude Whitacre, Author of..." you can see people sit up straighter in their seats. There is still a mystique about authors. It's also alot easier to get radio interviews.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6855912].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kthxbye
        Very interesting idea. For someone who is doing a lot of seminars or coaching/speaking this seems like a tremendous opportunity to co-brand. Plus it is straight forward, i.e. in other cases there might be a lot more "begging" involved to get the ball rolling.
        Has anyone found similar offers/products/etc? I think there would be quite a market for things like book forewords, recommendation quotes, etc.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6859219].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by kthxbye View Post

          Very interesting idea. For someone who is doing a lot of seminars or coaching/speaking this seems like a tremendous opportunity to co-brand. Plus it is straight forward, i.e. in other cases there might be a lot more "begging" involved to get the ball rolling.
          Has anyone found similar offers/products/etc? I think there would be quite a market for things like book forewords, recommendation quotes, etc.
          Dan Kennedy will write a tag line on the cover of your book, if you just ask. Any author will. Because it may bring in another book buyer of their other books.
          But no guru would ever pay to be on the book or in it.
          I've got permission to include entire chapters from a Guru's book in my own books. But they would never pay me, and would laugh if I suggested it.

          Speakers are a prime market for these anthologies. Why? Because most have a real need to be thought of as an expert...and have the mistaken idea that writing a book is hard. And there is huge turnover in low level speakers. So the market remains fresh. Next week, another Guru will be selling this "opportunity" and will find willing buyers. It will never go away. Neither will vanity publishing. But these anthologies never have a success story. Sorry.

          There is an immense amount of trading between authors (especially "Success" authors) of forewards, quotes, recommendations, book reviews, and other contributions. But money doesn't change hands.
          Signature
          One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

          What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861715].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author imranali84
    thanks for all the great info- I guess there still MIGHT be a way for this to be used for credibility, just not the extent i thought it would be...

    As the other posters pointed out, it would be good to write your own book- But at the same time to be a co-author of a product with a big name, NOT an anthology can be used..
    I've seen quite a number of names suddenly hitting it big after a bit of endorsements etc.

    It's very basic actually, according to the book by Cialdini- Persuasion.

    It's powerful social proof and association.

    I'll give you an example. Even though self-publishing is so easy now and cheap, being an self published author still yields huge respect today, because in many peoples minds, they think wiriting a book is 'awesome and difficult to do"

    But we warriors know otherwise! Its really easy to self publish.

    2) SIMILARLY, people still think that an endorsement or co-authoring with a big name is HUGE. Some of us know better, but NOT the majority, similar to the examples above.

    As long as there are always persuasion techniques, it helps to apply them where possible.

    For every one person who does not know Jay Conrad Levinson, there are other prospects who do. And guess what? Those who DO know him are great prospects, because it means they have invested in education previously to read and attend seminars.

    Those who do NOT know him, might not be as good potential prospects, because it means they are clueless about investing in marketing education.

    So do NOT be turned off by opportunities like these.

    Imagine what it will do for your consultancy or marketing firm, if you say that you are an author and endorsed by "Jay Conrad Levinson" or "Jay Abraham"

    No matter what others say, it still is great credibility- Undeniably so.

    But of course, a caveat. You need to be quality yourself, with great content, otherwise all the benefits above are thrown out the window.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6860954].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
      I was exposed to this idea in 1982 when we only had hard copies. It was through a member of a national speaker association I belonged to. Believe me when I say these books don't sell very well. I sold them at seminars and night classes and struggled to get buyers.

      People didn't care about my fellow authors. They wanted the info I was presenting. Always got great reviews and always was invited back.

      The moral is like a few have said - nobody cares or knows these other guys. They only know you and if your material stinks you won't sell a single book or be invited to return.

      Good luck if you go this route. Personally, I'd let this 30 year old marketing GIMMICK fade into yesteryear.

      Tom
      Signature
      Get 30% or More Retirement Income If you are serious about your retirement, you'll love this product.

      The Money Ferret Finance Article Directory
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861436].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by imranali84 View Post

      Those who do NOT know him, might not be as good potential prospects, because it means they are clueless about investing in marketing education.

      So do NOT be turned off by opportunities like these.

      Imagine what it will do for your consultancy or marketing firm, if you say that you are an author and endorsed by "Jay Conrad Levinson" or "Jay Abraham"

      No matter what others say, it still is great credibility- Undeniably so.

      But of course, a caveat. You need to be quality yourself, with great content, otherwise all the benefits above are thrown out the window.
      No. Read the experiences of people who have actually paid for the privilege of being a "co-author" of a Guru. The books don't sell. Nobody orders them on Amazon, they are hard to sell at events, and they are terrible "sales letter books". You will never see these books in bookstores.

      Really. There are thousands of garages full of these books. There is no demand. You are not going into "business" with these gurus. You are buying printing from them, at highly inflated prices.

      If you pay to be included in a book, you are not an "author"...you are a customer. Literally everyone who has bought into this idea has lost money. No exceptions.

      The only exception is if you are already a Guru, and you joint-author a book to gain access to that author's niche. But these authors never pay for the privilege. They get paid.

      Have you ever heard of "Who's Who"? There are books printed for every profession. You pay to be listed...after you get a letter saying you were "Nominated". The entire sales effort is to the people who are listed. They are the market, not the readers. All the books are sold to them, and nobody else.
      This is precisely the same idea.

      This "Be in a book with 12 other authors and a guru" idea has been around for decades. It preys on people who do not know how publishing works. And there are plenty of those people to go around.

      And here is what really bothers me. The people selling this idea absolutely know that none of these books will ever make it into the hands of anyone other than the paid participants. No effort is made to market these books. None. And the only number actually printed are the ones ordered by the authors themselves.

      I can promise this: Anyone who says this is a good idea has never done it.

      Think. Have you ever seen the Guru try to sell one of these books at any event? No. Because even though he/she is the main draw of the book, he/she knows that there is no value.

      I hope I didn't make anyone cry.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861609].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
        To me this whole thing saps credibility from the 'gurus' that
        would take part in it. To know that they'd whore themselves
        with any fool for a few bucks seems wrong.

        Much like the new discoveries about the BBB charging
        businesses to get better ratings.
        Signature




        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861689].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kthxbye
    I assume that most of the people, for whom Tracy is a relevant name, are not seeing books as a primary revenue source. Core should be speeches and consulting stuff.


    And denying that co-branding works is like saying celebrity endorsements are all bullshit. It really depends on how good somebody is at leveraging that endorsement and on the conditions of the deal. And for the Tracy example the deal conditions might have some weaknesses (i.e. are there now dozens of people running around - with exactly the same book - telling how they co-authored it with Tracy?).
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861753].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by kthxbye View Post

      And denying that co-branding works is like saying celebrity endorsements are all bullshit.
      Co-branding works. Buying into an anthology with 12 other authors (and Tracy being one of them) does not.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6861928].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        The sales page says that you co-create a product with Tracy. So it's Tracy and You as authors... A digital product... And you get a consultation with a guy named Greg Rollett as to how you can use the product in your business.

        • A 6 Module Information Marketing Product featuring YOU and Brian Tracy
        • Access to license the packaged content in your business, for sale or for lead generation
        • Digital access to the product as well as the option to purchase physical copies
        So, you'd be getting a lead-generation tool for your business. Presumably, the physical copies would cost you money...



        In any case, the idea isn't to make money directly from this product only, but to use it to get more clients...



        Since it's not an anthology, there might be a benefit... especially Tracy pushes it to his list.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6862851].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author imranali84
    hmm good advice, but some are missing the point here-

    The point of being co-author or -co-creator is not to sell the books for profit.

    Its to open doors for speeches and get credibility for marketing projects and given away to decision makers.

    Not many people make a living off the profits of book sales in offline marketing- they use it as glorified business cards.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6863145].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by imranali84 View Post

      hmm good advice, but some are missing the point here-

      The point of being co-author or -co-creator is not to sell the books for profit.

      Its to open doors for speeches and get credibility for marketing projects and given away to decision makers.

      Not many people make a living off the profits of book sales in offline marketing- they use it as glorified business cards.
      I want to sincerely apologize. I read your first post, but did not watch the video. So, every argument I made was trying to save you anguish...but didn't apply to this thread.

      Now that I've watched the video, I still think the "Brian Tracy" brand name has limited value. And I wouldn't buy the package for $3,000. That money could easily pay for a ghost writer to write a book for you based on your notes or video of you speaking.

      The "Co-author" idea has been updated here to include a video product (which has appeal), and you would be the only one your prospects see as the co-author to Brian Tracy. I understand the appeal of this offer now.

      But a physical book that you have written (or paid someone to write) would give you far more credibility to prospective clients. Forget the profits on book sales. If you would write a book, hoping to make a living on the sales....the vast majority are disappointed. But handing a decision maker a book you wrote, with it autographed to them carries far more weight than a video series with you edited in with Brian Tracy.

      And you would get far greater return on your money, if you had someone write your book for you, and get it printed in small quantity (or use Amazon Createspace).

      The vast majority of decision makers will never watch the video. And they would never read your book either. But the fact that you have a book...opens many doors because of the pedestal people put authors on.

      One last thing (we all wish!), One of the best ways I've found to talk to a CEO about hiring you as a speaker is to say that you are writing a book, and you want to interview them. Nothing will open their door faster. Do a 20 minute phone interview, and include parts of it in your book. I promise you they will buy copies for everyone in their company, and hire you to speak.

      Here is one of Zig Ziglar's secrets. He would write quotes and examples about CEOs of companies he wanted as clients. His books are riddled with these stories. Then he would send the CEO a copy. Almost every CEO would then hire him to speak at their convention or annual event. THAT's using a book to market yourself as a speaker. Brian Tracy isn't the one you should have as a co-author, it's every CEO in your niche. That's marketing.

      Dan Kennedy does the same thing in his books.

      This last idea was as compensation for my mis-understanding the appeal of the offer. I sincerely hope you use this idea of "Get CEOs to provide content for you and use it to promote to them". Believe me, that's how the big dogs are doing it.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6867869].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author imranali84
    Claude, thanks for the great info nuggets... realy golden!

    I actually already have 3 self published books, one is on B2B marketing, the other two are B2C markets.

    Since i already have a book, it would be good to associate with big names to further break down resistance. I work with seminar based selling platforms, and these, i feel (the association) would pay itself back in bundles when i do speak to prospects.

    But claude, you seem like a REALLY knowledagble guy! Any tips on how i could get a big name author to give a book blurb or testimonial? I'm looking for "easy fish" and not the ones who reply after 6 months with a flat NO.

    Of course, there might be no easy fish, but given your knowledge, i might be able to learn something here..
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6872935].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      A simple e-mail is usually enough. Ask the guys that give blurbs to lots of other authors. They are used to it, and may just dash you one off without further communication. If they have phones, call. But I might start off by asking if you can quote them for your book. Pick out the quote you like. Mention you'll send a copy of the book when you are done. Tell them you would also like to mention them and their website in your book, and "to make it more effective for you, I'll use a quote from you to create more connection with the reader".


      Of course, when you get the book printed, ask for 100 Review Copies. This is before the main printing, and usually are without the finished cover. Ask your printer to do this for you.

      Then you send the books to anyone who said they would give you a quote...and most will. Then they will give you a review that you can print in the front of your new book. We have seen that in lots of Guru books.

      It's also really easy to tell the author that you gave them a great review on Amazon. (of course, after you do it.) Mention that you would consider it a huge favor if they gave an honest review of your book on Amazon. A few will (although many will promise).

      Giving a glowing and detailed review of an author's book, is quick, free, and painless. But it means a lot to many of them. Hint: It's far better if you review a brand new book that has only one or no reviews. Chances are , yours will stay at the top, and they will actually remember your name if you call.

      I've had authors actually see me at conferences and walk up to me and say "Are you Claude Whitacre?" and give me a hug because of one reviews on Amazon. Why? Because most of them know that in depth positive reviews sell books!

      Could you give me the title of one of your books? I'd love to read and review it. I'll buy it on Amazon if it's available. PM me if you wish, or just give it here.

      Believe me, except for the top, best selling authors that "never give a blurb" they are just like you and me. We just want more sales. And you advertising their book with a "recommended reading" list, a review of your book with their contact details, and a blurb (maybe even a short chapter or introduction) is how they sell more books.

      Want to make sure they will talk to you? Ask to interview them to send the interview to your list. Almost everyone will agree to that. Of course, they can promote their latest book.

      I don't know you yet, and don't know if you have a specific industry you work with, but asking CEOs of companies to give you a quote, review, or write an introduction...will be more profitable than asking other authors.

      When you are working an industry, a few people may know of a leading Guru. But everyone will know the leading CEO in their industry. More juice there, my friend.

      Anyway, let me know about your books.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6875071].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author FIP
    I guess any association has to be seen as being authentic or indeed ethical - if it isn't that person risks the prospect perhaps of being labelled and seen as a coat tail rider.

    In my view, any association has to be credible and indeed truly collaborative. If not it could do more harm than good.

    Particularly if well known authors are the people you are aligning your image to.
    Signature

    "If one advances confidently in the direction of his own dreams and endeavours to live the life which he has imagined - he will meet a success unexpected in common hours"
    -Thoreau

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6875090].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author kthxbye
      Originally Posted by FIP View Post

      In my view, any association has to be credible and indeed truly collaborative. If not it could do more harm than good.
      That is of cause a very subjective interpretation. For example even Harvard Business Review had in the good old days the practice, that an academic would walk in, discuss for half an hour an idea with a writer, and in the next issue his article was published.

      I am still not sure how to approach this the smartest way. I am in for this purely the reputation, i.e. I need a legit publisher and ideally a well known co-author. But it is tricky how to jump start this the smartest way. Currently my idea is somewhat to take 2-3 ideas, work with a ghostwriter to produce a super high quality sample chapters/summary, and then approach publishers and potential co-authors. Not quite sure how this is going to turn out, but it might be worth giving a try.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6883083].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        I just got the book Smart Calling: Eliminate the Fear, Failure, and Rejection From Cold Calling by Art Sobczak

        This is an example of a book that has, on every page, quotes from authors in his niche (Sales and cold calling). He mentions their name, book title, and a quote from the author. Also on nearly every page, he has a quote from a CEO talking about how they cold call. After a quick read, I swear there are maybe 100 of these quotes in the book. And each one gives credit to the CEO and their company.

        THIS is how to market your speaking business. Although this book is published by a "real" publisher, nobody cares. Academics care about the publisher, business people care about the track record of the author and if he/she delivers.

        Anyone who wants a book to market their services...should buy this book (maybe a dime on Amazon.com) to use as a template.

        Why do this?
        On Amazon, any search for any author mentioned in this book...will also pull up this book. His competitors are now marketing for him.
        Everyone (CEOs) in this book is either a prime prospect...or already a client.
        Most CEOs mentioned in this book will either hire Art Sobczak, or buy his book in quantity to pass out to employees...or both.

        I'm done. I need to write another book.
        Signature
        One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

        What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6886092].message }}

Trending Topics