Client didn't pay? And then this happened...

27 replies
Ben shared this story over in the CW forum. What would you do?
http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...didnt-pay.html
#client #happened #pay
  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    If hosting was part of the deal I could see doing a website take down though I don't think I would have been so public with why.

    Likely hurts the company more that their customers don't know why. Just put up a random "site suspended" page.
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  • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
    That's interesting.
    I have a client that owes me a few grand in a different business.
    Maybe I will do something similar. Make a site and have it outrrank theirs that says the same things.
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    • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
      If you do that, just be prepared in case they decide to sue you. It can get costly and ugly in a hurry, especially if they are better equipped for a legal battle than you. It could even backfire on you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    Might be better to just take the site down so it has a "page cannot be displayed error"

    It is more straightforward and doesn't have any revenge element to it. The client didn't pay for the product, so the vendor removed the product. Why make it all snarky?
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    • Profile picture of the author jtchaschowy
      Originally Posted by Chad Kimball View Post

      Might be better to just take the site down so it has a "page cannot be displayed error"

      It is more straightforward and doesn't have any revenge element to it. The client didn't pay for the product, so the vendor removed the product. Why make it all snarky?
      Link-bait. He has gotten a lot of publicity and probably a lot of people interested in his development skills.
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      • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
        Originally Posted by jtchaschowy View Post

        Link-bait. He has gotten a lot of publicity and probably a lot of people interested in his development skills.
        Opposite for me. I view it as unprofessional and would not use his service.
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        • Profile picture of the author deu12000
          Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

          Opposite for me. I view it as unprofessional and would not use his service.
          Agreed he's basically airing out the dirty laundry. There may have been more issues, it might have been straightforward, but creating a whole page advertising himself on a "Impounded" page isn't the right thing to do. If he had access to the hosting and didn't actually host the site himself he should have just taken out the files he wasn't paid for. If he controlled the hosting he should have put up a suspended page. At worse he could have put up a page saying Suspended for Non-Payment if he really wanted to embarrass the guy and it was a significant amount of money.

          The self-advertising in there and all of the details is something you don't want from someone designing your site. To me there is an unwritten rule of confidentiality in business dealings, especially when it comes to money. To embarrass the guy that way in front of his whole client base and future client base is very extreme and then for it to go viral is just taking it to a whole other level.
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      • Profile picture of the author shane_k
        Originally Posted by jtchaschowy View Post

        Link-bait. He has gotten a lot of publicity and probably a lot of people interested in his development skills.

        You really think so? lol

        Seriously if you were a business owner and had this dude call you up offering web design services, and then you done a google check on the guy and found out what he done, would you seriously consider hiring him?

        From a business owner's perspective I certainly wouldn't.

        I am betting that this is hurting the designer more than the fitness center.
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  • Profile picture of the author CudaFish
    I would really really want to.

    But as stated a few times already, I wouldn't just for the fact that I would want to maintain a professional appearance at all times. Just me though haha.

    (Maybe he REALLY needed that 5k. )

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    • Profile picture of the author MarkJez
      I wonder if any Offline Warrior has contacted Fitness FS and also Frank Johen to offer "Reputation Repair Services".

      I think both of them will need it in very large doses !!

      Seriously though, I really question the wisdom of Franks's actions.

      If Fitness FS lose market share then innocent employees could lose their jobs and their livelihoods.

      Has Frank thought through all the implications and repercussions properly?

      The fallout could cost him his business and land him with a huge legal bill. Cases like this can take years to resolve, and in the meantime if a client hires Frank, at the back of their minds, they will think, will Frank hijack our website too, if we fail to pay him on time.

      I suspect that as this has gone viral, Frank will become un-hireable, although it could cause the opposite reaction by giving him a massive amount of free publicity worldwide.


      Another thought....Frank could also have given his client a huge amount of free publicity (PR), worth $millions - especially if they are seen by the public as being the "victim" held to ransom by the "evil" webmaster.

      Time will tell, but this is not someting I would ever do to a client.


      It will be interesting to see how this case is resolved.
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  • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
    I guess I don't see the legal ramifications.
    I need to talk to my attorney I suppose....
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    • Profile picture of the author deu12000
      Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post

      I guess I don't see the legal ramifications.
      I need to talk to my attorney I suppose....
      Basically you're using your skills to talk shit about someone online (that's the simplest way of putting it). If they sent it to their attorney you might get a lawsuit against you for slander. By the time everything is said and done you've wasted a lot of your time and money and it might be hard for you to prove everything you wrote is 100% true.

      You just have to be careful how you do it.

      I have a client that wanted to sue everyone that made negative comments about the old company he owned maybe 8 years ago. He has spoken to attorneys and they have told him he could have sued for slander, but the statute of limitations was only a couple of years for a case like that.

      I guess you can do it anonymously but that wouldn't motivate them to pay. I just suspend the website wait a bit and when they call me and send payment their sites go back up.
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  • Profile picture of the author digichik
    Posted this in the other forum:

    Seriously though, I really question the wisdom of Franks's actions.

    If Fitness FS go bust as a result (or lose market share) then innocent employees could lose their jobs and their livelihoods.

    Has Frank thought through all the implications and repercussions properly?

    The fallout could cost him his business and land him with a huge legal bill. Cases like this can take years to resolve, and in the meantime if a clients hires Frank, at the back of their minds, they will think, will Frank hijack our website too, if we fail to pay him on time.

    I suspect that as this has gone viral, Frank will become un-hireable, although it could cause the opposite reaction by giving him a massive amount of free publicity worldwide.
    Obviously there's a major potential lawsuit against the website developer.

    You can't do this to someone.

    Did they send advanced notice of their intentions?

    Do they have documented proof of a request for payment?

    Do they have a contract?

    Are they even authorized by SF Fitness to develop a website?

    I'm thinking the web developer is in a lot of hot water.

    I would guess the web developer doesn't have an attorney on staff. The fitness facility probably does.

    Wouldn't want to be the website guy right now.


    When you actually read the letter you see that Frank is in Europe. It seems to me that SF Fitness tried to use this to their advantage, knowing that the chances of him coming to the US to fight the case in small claims court are slim to none.
    SF Fitness got their just reward. Although, I imagine they still haven't learned a lesson, sociopaths run businesses with sociopathic cultures.

    How is the employees losing their jobs because of this situation Frank's fault, if he wasn't paid? If SF Fitness is such an upstanding company, they should have considered all of the repercussions of their failure to pay. I have a feeling SF Fitness functions like many of the other yuppie/hipster businesses in SF, they feel just because they exist, they can do whatever they want, and everyone is suppose to bow and curtsy to them.

    Most of us have had clients who threaten us with none payment(or withholding the balance), after we have done the work, because they don't want to pay or don't have the money. Here in California just to register a case in small claims court costs over $300. Then there are the attorneys fees to put the case together for you($500/hr min.).

    The final costs can be a few thousand dollars, just to recover a few thousand dollars. The court case will probably take well over a year to get before a judge, the court are over crowded due to major budget cut backs.

    I don't know that I would have had the courage to post it, I am happy he had the courage to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author deu12000
      Originally Posted by digichik View Post

      Posted this in the other forum:



      When you actually read the letter you see that Frank is in Europe. It seems to me that SF Fitness tried to use this to their advantage, knowing that the chances of him coming to the US to fight the case in small claims court are slim to none.
      SF Fitness got their just reward. Although, I imagine they still haven't learned a lesson, sociopaths run businesses with sociopathic cultures.

      How is the employees losing their jobs because of this situation Frank's fault, if he wasn't paid? If SF Fitness is such an upstanding company, they should have considered all of the repercussions of their failure to pay. I have a feeling SF Fitness functions like many of the other yuppie/hipster businesses in SF, they feel just because they exist, they can do whatever they want, and everyone is suppose to bow and curtsy to them.

      Most of us have had clients who threaten us with none payment(or withholding the balance), after we have done the work, because they don't want to pay or don't have the money. Here in California just to register a case in small claims court costs over $300. Then there are the attorneys fees to put the case together for you($500/hr min.).

      The final costs can be a few thousand dollars, just to recover a few thousand dollars. The court case will probably take well over a year to get before a judge, the court are over crowded due to major budget cut backs.

      I don't know that I would have had the courage to post it, I am happy he had the courage to do it.
      The whole story isn't out. There is no proof in either direction so who knows who's telling the truth?

      Right now the only villain I see is the web developer for how he handled his billing problem. I think it was courageous of him to do it (if he's telling the truth), but I also think it was handled very irresponsibly.

      I've been stiffed myself on several occasions. I don't post stories about the company being a deadbeat on their own website.

      That's like someone putting vinyl siding on your house, then you don't pay them, and they rip the vinyl siding off and spray paint "DEADBEAT THIS PAINT IS ON HERE BECAUSE JOHN SMITH YOUR NEIGHBOR DIDN'T PAY ME. MY NAME IS BILL DOE CALL ME AT BILL DOE PAINTING AND SIDING AT 555-555-555" all over your house.
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      • Profile picture of the author digichik
        Originally Posted by deu12000 View Post

        The whole story isn't out. There is no proof in either direction so who knows who's telling the truth?

        Right now the only villain I see is the web developer for how he handled his billing problem. I think it was courageous of him to do it (if he's telling the truth), but I also think it was handled very irresponsibly.

        I've been stiffed myself on several occasions. I don't post stories about the company being a deadbeat on their own website.

        That's like someone putting vinyl siding on your house, then you don't pay them, and they rip the vinyl siding off and spray paint "DEADBEAT THIS PAINT IS ON HERE BECAUSE JOHN SMITH YOUR NEIGHBOR DIDN'T PAY ME. MY NAME IS BILL DOE CALL ME AT BILL DOE PAINTING AND SIDING AT 555-555-555" all over your house.
        You are absolutely right, the facts are not all in yet. However, if the web designer is in the right and wasn't paid, I believe he had a right to do what he did. As Frank says in the letter he posted, large companies not paying their smaller vendors is becoming standard operating practice for them. They know small business can't afford to fight a legal battle, so the large companies get away with not paying.

        Keep in mind, the web designer is in Europe, not the US. He doesn't have many legal options for getting paid available to him. Perhaps, SF Fitness used this knowledge to their advantage, in deciding not to pay him.

        If I didn't pay someone for putting vinyl siding on my house and they did what you described, I'd know I had that coming for none payment. I'm not saying it's the smartest marketing move on their part. Then again, there are lots of people in this world who are tired of seeing the 'little guy' get ripped off, so the vinyl siding company would probably get additional business from it.

        Maybe Frank just thought he had to finally make a stand. I don't know.
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      • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
        Originally Posted by deu12000 View Post

        That's like someone putting vinyl siding on your house, then you don't pay them, and they rip the vinyl siding off and spray paint "DEADBEAT THIS PAINT IS ON HERE BECAUSE JOHN SMITH YOUR NEIGHBOR DIDN'T PAY ME. MY NAME IS BILL DOE CALL ME AT BILL DOE PAINTING AND SIDING AT 555-555-555" all over your house.

        This is not close to being the same thing.
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        • Profile picture of the author deu12000
          Originally Posted by Eddie Spangler View Post

          This is not close to being the same thing.
          I understand it's not the same one is virtual, the other is physical. The vinyl siding example really only embarrassed someone locally (where people actually know him and live close to him), what this web designer did is now on a global scale due to it going viral.

          I have heard of contractors that go unpaid ripping out or destroying their work because of it. I think it's fair. I also would have thought it was fair if the designer took the site down or took all of his files off of the server. The public name and shame is what I think was wrong.

          My point was it wasn't handled correctly by the designer whether the guy paid or not.
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      • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
        Originally Posted by deu12000 View Post

        That's like someone putting vinyl siding on your house, then you don't pay them, and they rip the vinyl siding off and spray paint "DEADBEAT THIS PAINT IS ON HERE BECAUSE JOHN SMITH YOUR NEIGHBOR DIDN'T PAY ME. MY NAME IS BILL DOE CALL ME AT BILL DOE PAINTING AND SIDING AT 555-555-555" all over your house.
        That actually happened in the car world a few months back. A customer brought in high end sports car for repair (forget the brand as this was a few months ago). He refused to pay the bill so they crashed the car to return it to the state it was in before the repairs.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue McDonald
    I was taught that two wrongs never make a right. Fitness FS say that they paid him $5000 up front for a 10week job that took many months. This appears like "they said" and then "he said." Very difficult to know who to believe but I think it is unprofessional. I think people will remember Frank's name and it will be interesting to see if his actions have attracted any extra business. I doubt it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MarkJez
      An alternative course of action for Frank (he may have already done this) would have been to create the same holding page, but to have put it onto a SUB-DOMAIN instead.

      He could then have written to Fitness's accounts dept. cc'd to the Finance Director, the MD and Chairperson, (and even perhaps the Shareholders/Stockholders !!!) and told them that if they didn't pay the balance as agreed, then at precisely 11.15am EST on Feb 15 the page on the sub-domain would be transferred over to the main domain for the whole world to see and emphasise that this was NOT a threat, but a PROMISE !!!

      If the deadline comes and goes without any communication or payment from Fitness, then the holding page goes up.

      By using this method, Frank would be more likely IMHO to get paid, and secondly, Fitness would have less recourse to legal action.

      ---------------------------------

      I have heard about freelancers writing to their client's biggest clients and telling them what has been going on ref. non-payment, and explaining their course of action and how their supplier's stubborn action could jeapodize their very own businesses.

      In this case, Fitness's best clients and partners (i.e. the gyms etc.) may start piling on the pressure for Fitness to pay their bill's - if they fear losing business as a direct result of this dispute.

      In other words, there are other methods for Frank to deploy in order to embarrass Fitness without risking being bitten by horrendously expensive legal action.
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  • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
    Next time, you have a client who thinks of not paying you or is late with the payment, just send them a link to this story...

    You might even want to add to your "terms and rules" a note that all unpaid items are subject to Frank Jonen Rule available at http...
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    I think this Jonen character is an unprofessional jackass and
    I hope FS sues his dumbass into oblivion. There's already way
    too much dumbassedness in this world... we need to thin the herd.

    Digichick... you obviously missed the part where FS says the guy
    took their $5000 deposit... didn't complete the work... missed several
    deadlines... and finally gave the project over to someone who did finish
    the job.

    No matter who's right or wrong you don't settle issues in this manner.
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    • Profile picture of the author digichik
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      I think this Jonen character is an unprofessional jackass and
      I hope FS sues his dumbass into oblivion. There's already way
      too much dumbassedness in this world... we need to thin the herd.

      Digichick... you obviously missed the part where FS says the guy
      took their $5000 deposit... didn't complete the work... missed several
      deadlines... and finally gave the project over to someone who did finish
      the job.

      No matter who's right or wrong you don't settle issues in this manner.
      As stated before, we don't have all of the facts and don't know who was or wasn't paid.

      My point is, because he is in Europe and SF Fitness is in the US, Frank doesn't have any legal recourse available to him. Therefore, neither party can be "sued into oblivion."


      Maybe Frank had one too many clients who had done credit card chargebacks, after receiving thousands of dollars in services. You know the kind of clients, often discussed here in the WF. Maybe enough was enough and Frank was just fed up?
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by digichik View Post

        My point is, because he is in Europe and SF Fitness is in the US, Frank doesn't have any legal recourse available to him. Therefore, neither party can be "sued into oblivion."
        Well, that's not necessarily true but it's a whole different conversation
        for a whole different forum... lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    It is never a good idea to post something so viral out of emotion. It seemed extremely unnecessary and unprofessional. If someone doesn't pay you, it is not your right to expose it to the world especially in the manner that he did. Like I said he could have found more discrete ways of getting his point across.
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  • Looks like the gym is starting to regain control.

    FITNESS SF
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  • Profile picture of the author Zakhar
    he done what he had to do, we don't know exactly what happened for him to go to that extent but its gone viral - I expect his web designing company to get plenty of hits.
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