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It feels to me like so many people here have it wrong- It's all about the value

by MRomeo09
26 replies
It seems like so much of the focus here on the WF is on what can I do to make money on the side? Can I charge $99 a year for a directory listing, $400 for a mobile site, $1,000 a month for SEO, etc. The most popular posts on this forum(and I've been here for over 5 years- lost my last userid and password) are the ones that talk about how to make money. I think this focus is all wrong. You're looking at things the wrong way.

I changed my outlook years ago, and perhaps if you change yours you might find some more success. I focused on providing absolute value for my clients. How can I provide them so much value that they would be a complete moron to choose not to do business with me?

Let's take an example of a website build. We have a completely different value proposition to our clients. Everyone else focuses in on we'll build you a website with 10 pages for $500. Instead we educate them that building a website isn't a one stop thing, it's a matter of testing and tweaking. Anyone who offers to give you a flat rate for a website to be done in two weeks is NOT the person you should hire. We talk about how we're going to do split testing on every singe page of the website. All of the content will be written by professional copywriters whose only job is to pre-sell the website visitors. We tell them how 92% of web visitors click on a site and within 2 seconds if they don't like what they see they immediately click off. We scientifically have tested all of the best methods to grab the users eyes and suck them into our copy. What colors work best? What types of graphics/pictures/etc work best? Where is the optimal placement of a phone number? We teach them how to get the absolute best testimonials and quotes from prior customers, what should it say, how, and in what format?

See we completely redefine what a website means and make it into a process that can pay huge dividends. Where other web designers have portfolios of their work and their pretty websites we instead have testimonials from customers whose business directly attributable to the internet has improved 1,000-3,000%. It's why you can be damn sure I don't charge $500 for a website.

My point is focus less on what you can get from your potential clients and focus like a laser on how you can help them. If you put all of your effort and focus into creating value for your clients, people will be beating a path down to your door and begging to give you money. No one is going to bang down your door asking for a mobile website, but if you can educate them on how to get a proper mobile site so that the 30% of their web visitors who are visiting on mobile phones can now be captured they might be interested in that.

If you're doing website design, you might have a few ideas from above. Are you doing research into what is helpful for your clients? Not just what will pay you the most money, but what will actually help them to make money? How much do you know about their business? Where are their pain points?

I'm rebuilding my business this year, as I'm brainstorming "What I want to be when I grow up", I'm focusing on providing value. Currently I have over 23 services that I can provide to my clients, things that they need, things that they will desperately want that no one else is providing them. What will you have to learn this year so that you can provide more value to your clients? Who will you have to become to be essential to your clients?

Here's to a great 2013

Marcos
#feels #people #wrong
  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I dont know Marcos, I know a guy that built a company that later sold for 800 million dollars on $19 dollar per month listings.

    I know that whole concept is disgusting to you... But... there are many ways to look at value, and just because a listing is cheap doesnt mean it has none.

    Heck a backlink from a post on WF even has value.

    Edit:

    As a matter of fact, I once ACCIDENTALLY sold this store out of these special $80.00 guitar picks they carried, JUST by talking about it here. My thread went number one for that keyword, and they got rushed with customers and sold all their $80.00 picks out within like a week. Seriously.

    I pissed myself off too, because I wanted to buy another pick and they were out.

    Alot of things have value, even when they come in small cheap packages. That single post was worth at least a couple of grand to that store, and I didnt even mean to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Yes John but those $19/mo listing were almost worthless to the consumer. A good sales script, and inertia caused it to be a good business. In my experience it's not much harder to find people that I can provide immense value to that will pay me $2-5k/mo quicker than I can find the equivalent number of people to pay me $20/mo.

      I'm always going to fall on the side of the value equation over the price. I think you over deliver on value and then price becomes less of an issue.
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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    • Profile picture of the author Big Rob
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      As a matter of fact, I once ACCIDENTALLY sold this store out of these special $80.00 guitar picks they carried, JUST by talking about it here. My thread went number one for that keyword, and they got rushed with customers and sold all their $80.00 picks out within like a week.
      Ah,Yes. The power of the forum.

      JD, I gotta know. $80 for one pick?!?! Was it titanium or carbon fiber?
      That is rockstar money,man.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Big Rob View Post

        Ah,Yes. The power of the forum.

        JD, I gotta know. $80 for one pick?!?! Was it titanium or carbon fiber?
        That is rockstar money,man.
        50 million year old baltic Amber...it has the same keratin like properties of tortoise shell. I had been searching for years to replace my old tort picks...and the Amber was the first thing I came across that compared, however now I have discovered "Vpicks", they only cost about 11 bucks (still, not 25 cent plastic) and they are as good as tort too.

        They have a pick called the "tradition" that I like alot, as much or more than the amber one.

        I always ask "Are you going to strike a $3,000 bell with a $2.00 rubber mallot?"

        No. You are going to find the mallot with the best tone you can find, to bring the most ring out of your $3,000 bell.

        The pick matters man...but only if you are deep into the tonal nuances, the audience itself probably doesnt notice alot.

        Amber picks are awesome, but, again; now I just buy the vpicks...I used to have a collection of torts and they made all the difference in the world believe it or not, it took years to find comparable replacements...
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        • Profile picture of the author mak25
          Yo John, I heard Billy Gibbons uses a quarter.

          Which I think cost him...a quarter ;-)
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          • Profile picture of the author Big Rob
            Originally Posted by mak25 View Post

            Yo John, I heard Billy Gibbons uses a quarter.

            Which I think cost him...a quarter ;-)
            Close.
            He uses a mexican peso.
            and bad ass mojo.....
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Well, I wont argue. I believe in value as well... and we werent selling on high rankings, we were selling on other benefits of having a webpage. To the people who bought, those selling points were value. I cant say that the listings had no value to the buyers even though they didnt necessarily all rank. However, I understand the school of thought here.

    On another note, I sure wish I was the one selling those picks. That was the darndest thing I have ever seen. I didnt make a cent for that or even get a free pick!

    I can sense you are frustrated so wont try to fan the flames.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    I hear ya Marcos, my background is in eCommerce conversion optimization and I've been doing it for some of the most recognized brands in the country for the last 15 years.

    BUT ... all of the conversion optimization in the world is (a) impossible if you don't have traffic, and (b) useless if no one's looking. So I also see it from the other perspective too, and a lot of the WSO's do bring real value to Warrior members and their clients.

    For example, I have a highly repeatable strategy I developed for my eCommerce clients that delivered 58,000 new visitors and $16k in sales in a 3 day span - and I just turned this into a guide that I'm selling. Why? Because I know a lot of people will buy it and benefit from it. I'm only one person, and have a personal relationship with all of the brands I work with. There are only so many hours in a day... so I can keep a little gem like that a secret, use it exclusively on a handful of clients, and collect a handful of retainers. Or I can sell it to a few thousand people, making half a year's salary in a span of a couple weeks, and let a bunch of other people benefit from that knowledge in the process.

    It goes both ways I think.
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    Ron Rule
    http://ronrule.com

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    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      I hear ya Marcos, my background is in eCommerce conversion optimization and I've been doing it for some of the most recognized brands in the country for the last 15 years.

      BUT ... all of the conversion optimization in the world is (a) impossible if you don't have traffic, and (b) useless if no one's looking. So I also see it from the other perspective too, and a lot of the WSO's do bring real value to Warrior members and their clients.

      For example, I have a highly repeatable strategy I developed for my eCommerce clients that delivered 58,000 new visitors and $16k in sales in a 3 day span - and I just turned this into a guide that I'm selling. Why? Because I know a lot of people will buy it and benefit from it. I'm only one person, and have a personal relationship with all of the brands I work with. There are only so many hours in a day... so I can keep a little gem like that a secret, use it exclusively on a handful of clients, and collect a handful of retainers. Or I can sell it to a few thousand people, making half a year's salary in a span of a couple weeks, and let a bunch of other people benefit from that knowledge in the process.

      It goes both ways I think.
      Your argument maes no sense. You'd rather sell some eBooks than to scale the strategy, nail the processes and data and sell to Zappos or something?
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      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
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      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        Your argument maes no sense. You'd rather sell some eBooks than to scale the strategy, nail the processes and data and sell to Zappos or something?
        No, I already have big brand clients - I've been in the DRTV/infomercial/consumer products space for years. What I'm saying is I can only handle a finite number of clients. So I can keep "working" and billing a limited amount of retainers, or sell my strategies to as many people who are willing to pay for them and make an income that way.

        Option one is a great living, but keeps me at the office for 8 hours a day. Option two requires very little time.
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        Ron Rule
        http://ronrule.com

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    • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      I hear ya Marcos, my background is in eCommerce conversion optimization and I've been doing it for some of the most recognized brands in the country for the last 15 years.

      BUT ... all of the conversion optimization in the world is (a) impossible if you don't have traffic, and (b) useless if no one's looking. So I also see it from the other perspective too, and a lot of the WSO's do bring real value to Warrior members and their clients.


      It goes both ways I think.
      A ton of traffic is not necessarily the end all be all for Marcos' methods. He can can get their business visibility online in a bunch of channels, by splashing on a little PPC, ranking the site for long tail keywords, Youtube, and Craigslist among just a few methods. If he's bringing the business owner 10 more quality leads a week at $50 a pop, that's $2,000 per month. That's a pittance with an item that has a high retail value. How many actual conversions does the business have to make for that $2000 to be a bargain? 10% conservatively?If he takes that expertise to 10 more clients, you have $20,000 - $30,000 monthly income AND you have a relatively low stress business model. That's $300,000 a year 99.99% of warriors would be thrilled to make I suspect. It's all about building something great, getting the residual income and maintaining control over it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      I hear ya Marcos, my background is in eCommerce conversion optimization and I've been doing it for some of the most recognized brands in the country for the last 15 years.

      BUT ... all of the conversion optimization in the world is (a) impossible if you don't have traffic, and (b) useless if no one's looking. So I also see it from the other perspective too, and a lot of the WSO's do bring real value to Warrior members and their clients.

      For example, I have a highly repeatable strategy I developed for my eCommerce clients that delivered 58,000 new visitors and $16k in sales in a 3 day span - and I just turned this into a guide that I'm selling. Why? Because I know a lot of people will buy it and benefit from it. I'm only one person, and have a personal relationship with all of the brands I work with. There are only so many hours in a day... so I can keep a little gem like that a secret, use it exclusively on a handful of clients, and collect a handful of retainers. Or I can sell it to a few thousand people, making half a year's salary in a span of a couple weeks, and let a bunch of other people benefit from that knowledge in the process.

      It goes both ways I think.
      Ahhhh but Ron you do agree with me after all, even when you say you don't. I'm not necessarily against low PRICE WSO's, as long as they offer good value. I did one for my sister a few years back after all. It's not the price I'm talking about, it's the value.

      I have two WSO's basically, one that teaches about Renting Websites, and another that teaches about lead gen. Each retails for $14.99. I don't have any cross reference from one to the other. I don't have a signature link that lists them. Each WSO was a good value, it was a lot more value than the $14.99 that they paid. And in 72% of the time within 24 hours of buying one of the WSO's, they buy the other. They actually have to do work to find that second WSO(yes I know I should make it easier). That's providing value. If you provide good value in your WSO, you'll make money, you can sell more WSO's, and continue to make more money. If you sell crap in an effort to get $14.99 is that really going to be sustainable. Are people going to look for everything you've bought and buy it all up?

      Look at Bob Ross' WSO, he sold his for $70. That's a fairly high "price" for a WSO but it provided an excellent value. Bob built up to that "price" by building lots of value. If he hadn't done that, he would have sold 2-3 at that price before he was off the front page and relegated to obscurity.

      Understand I'm not saying you always have to ask for top dollar because you're providing value. Even if you're designing websites for $500, how can you provide double or triple the value than any other designer in your price range? It comes down to this, can you position yourself value wise so that your company/service is the only logical choice regardless of price?
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Marcos

    Maybe we can JV once I get my database cranked up and you can upsell all my directory site customers into becoming 20k clients.

    I think you would LOVE all these people who own directory sites, if you could get ahold of their databases and upsell their customers!

    They would love you too for a 5 or ten percent commission!
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Hey Marcos,good approach.

    Now let me ask, as we get this at times and yeh it annoys me a tad.

    Lets say 9 of our competitors are approaching it the 'usual' way and we approach it in the sort of way you set out.

    People believe what they hear the most, so they hear 9 * the usual approach and 1 times our approach , and whilst our approach stands out for them, fear of fecking up often makes them slide towards the usual approaches, 9 V 1 surely the 9 are right and the 1 is a chancer!

    Now we of course attempt to pull them back our way and some do, some dont, you know many businesses dont like change, they fear it, going the 'usual' route is safe to them, unspectacular but safe, their 8 business friends have also gone the 'usual' route and whilst not growing theyre still around, so they dont want to be the ones to do it differently, hell that means taking a risk!, theyd rather fail safely than succeed spectacularly, so this is a real challenge, not a make believe one, how do you propose to deal with it as you at least are not pretending (like too many WSOs do) that real life isnt for real.
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    Mike

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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

      Hey Marcos,good approach.

      Now let me ask, as we get this at times and yeh it annoys me a tad.

      Lets say 9 of our competitors are approaching it the 'usual' way and we approach it in the sort of way you set out.

      People believe what they hear the most, so they hear 9 * the usual approach and 1 times our approach , and whilst our approach stands out for them, fear of fecking up often makes them slide towards the usual approaches, 9 V 1 surely the 9 are right and the 1 is a chancer!

      Now we of course attempt to pull them back our way and some do, some dont, you know many businesses dont like change, they fear it, going the 'usual' route is safe to them, unspectacular but safe, their 8 business friends have also gone the 'usual' route and whilst not growing theyre still around, so they dont want to be the ones to do it differently, hell that means taking a risk!, theyd rather fail safely than succeed spectacularly, so this is a real challenge, not a make believe one, how do you propose to deal with it as you at least are not pretending (like too many WSOs do) that real life isnt for real.
      First off go buy this book- Amazon.com: Monopolize Your Marketplace: Separate...Amazon.com: Monopolize Your Marketplace: Separate... And if you're better funded go buy the course MYM, it costs $399 from his site. You'll get a better grounding on this type of methodology. If you want to go deeper, you can look into Joe Polish materials as well. And then of course anything Dan Kennedy. But Rick Hershaw probably lays it out the best even though his entire $399 course is a sales pitch on buying his consulting.

      Basically it comes down to you educate your customer. For example in the website business chances are your clients don't know anything. They look for pretty websites at cheap prices. How else can they formulate a buying decision, they don't know any better? What you do is you reformulate the buying decision. You educate them. What are the questions they should be asking? What don't they know that could cost them thousands? How will they know who is qualified to do the work for them? When you educate your interested customer in the right way, then you become the ONLY logical choice. I've watched businesses that I've consulted in this way push their largest competitors completely out of business in less than a year.
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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      • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
        Originally Posted by MRomeo09 View Post

        First off go buy this book- Amazon.com: Monopolize Your Marketplace: Separate Your Business from the Competition Then Eliminate Them (9781930771048): Richard Harshaw: Books
        And if you're better funded go buy the course MYM, it costs $399 from his site. You'll get a better grounding on this type of methodology. If you want to go deeper, you can look into Joe Polish materials as well. And then of course anything Dan Kennedy. But Rick Hershaw probably lays it out the best even though his entire $399 course is a sales pitch on buying his consulting.
        Oddly enough, one of the Amazon reviews is by our very own Claude Whitacre, back in 2006. Small world, eh?

        Curious if you could tell us what you liked about it. All of the review are either 5 star or 1 star. There's a real love/hate thing going on with this book.
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        • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
          I have the exact love/hate thing that the 1 star and the 5 stars give it. If you've read what I've said about it so far I've already told you. Love the information in it, wish it was more of the "How to" versus the "What to". It's really just a salesletter to get you to sign up for his consulting team. I think he gives you enough at least in his course to do it yourself regardless how many times he tells you you need his team to do it. I really do think he's giving you enough information, but he tries to build his team up as the all powerful Oz, when with a little elbow grease anyone could do this.

          So it's really a 5 in the information provided.
          And it's also a 1 because of the fact that he deliberately keeps back information that could be used to do it yourself.

          Does that make sense? It's really both. I agree with all the 5 and all the 1 star reviews.
          Signature
          We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

          Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
        Marcos,

        You've hit a "home run" here

        Thanks for taking the time and the trouble.

        Ron
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Loved this post. Realized the same thing a good while back and went down the same path, into optimisation, providing real value etc. 90% of people are quite content to sell cheap shit (and their soul in the process to try to make money), as the content of 90% + of WSO's show. That impulse to really help the people you serve, like real successful people do, or to give, like the best people here do freely, is rare.


    ''Just gimme something easy and quick that I can sell fast and make a quick buck, I don't care what it is, or how much snake oil I need to apply, just gimme something. Please!!! I'm desperate. I don't care who I have to fleece or mislead or step on. (just don't make me have to work hard or apply too much thought)''
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  • Profile picture of the author CleanMountainLiving
    Great thread. I see both sides and I've really kind of settled in the middle.

    Ultimately, the answer to the way you want to go, though, rests with YOU. Who are you as a business person and how do you want your business to look and how do you want to live.

    I've got a very good sense of how I want to spend my time, and managing a business for 60+ hours per week isn't it. But there are certainly ways to build an extremely profitable business, provide tremendous value, and still have the ability to live a life that makes you happy. However that may be.

    I guess I'm making the leap that the people reading and contemplating this discussion consider themselves to be in business, rather than just looking for a way to make money.

    Anyway, like I said, I've kind of landed in the middle, and that's on purpose.

    I've got a minimal viable product, ranging from $250-$500 per year. It's a local directory site(s). There are no 'free' listings and there are no ads. Just informative, lead-generating pages on this directory site for the businesses that choose to join.

    This alone gives me 500 to 1000 paying customers by the end of this year, if not many more if I scale like I anticipate. And, it's annualized. By the first of Feb next year I will already have collected $125k+, if not much, much more.

    But, already, from among my first 10 customers, a relationship has been developed that has turned into a $10,000 per year agreement for ongoing services and consulting.

    This came to be from me educating this person on many different things related to their web related marketing, all as part of just providing value for becoming one of my mvp's.

    I guess for me it comes down to providing an introductory product, very inexpensively. They become my customer and I acquire a reliable base income.

    From there, the opportunity to educate and profit is maximized. Because they are already my customer, and they become a captive market for my drip feeding of profit making knowledge.

    Anywho, that's my 2 cents. I've learned a lot on this forum, from both Marcos and John and many, many others.

    But, I haven't taken what either preaches as the gospel. I've created my own reality...that works for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    @ Clean mountain living. Your model is excellent. I hope you stick with with it and keep moving forward smooth and steady.

    I think people assume, as underground displays here, that just because a wso focuses on teaching someone how to actually make sales, that the other side (benefit for the customer) doesnt also exist.

    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

    90% of people are quite content to sell cheap shit (and their soul in the process to try to make money), as the content of 90% + of WSO's show. That impulse to really help the people you serve, like real successful people do, or to give, like the best people here do freely, is rare.


    ''Just gimme something easy and quick that I can sell fast and make a quick buck, I don't care what it is, or how much snake oil I need to apply, just gimme something. Please!!! I'm desperate. I don't care who I have to fleece or mislead or step on. (just don't make me have to work hard or apply too much thought)''
    Personally, my own wso's are focused on teaching people to "sell", and create business models and sales processes that work...AND THEY DO! For everyone who applies them as prescribed.

    If you look around this forum that is the NUMBER ONE biggest problem people come here with. They dont know how to sell. There are a thousand broke SEO guys who cant sell their services to save their life. Thats what I personally focus on teaching. That; and designing a business model that sells, makes sense, and where all the various aspects work synergistically.

    Thats what we talk about at the warrior forum if you havent noticed the slogan "How to Make Money".

    Unfortunately, some can't make the jump and believe somehow that a teaching based on making sales means is synonymous with not providing value. Like it's "either/or".

    Hello????????

    They take sales advice out of context as if we are saying that you shouldnt care about providing value for the customer.

    Many people make hateful assumptions amd shallow assertions about people who teach strictly sales or business models, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    They dont realize that there is a market among small business owners for "cheap shit" and that not all of them can fork out a check for 20 grand, and that being able to get a website up for a few hundred dollars is actually a blessing for them, that they wouldnt otherwise be able to afford. Also they rule out that alot opf people who COULD [pay 20 grand still wouldnt do it in a million years. The njinety percent to be exact.

    Does that mean no one should sell them a basic five page website for a reasonable fee, without all the bells and whistles, if that is what the customer is in the market for?

    Hey Im all about selling a program for 20 grand.... but what some dont get is that NINETY PERCENT of the market for internet services out there are looking more for "Cheap Shit", and the ability to have an online presence for them is ignored by the guys who will only sell "EXPENSIVE ELABORATE" shit.

    Make the jump, make the the distinction!

    You gonna leave that market out there hanging? The NINETY PERCENT? And say that no one should help them get online?

    Are you going to say people are snake oil salesman for helping them get an inexpensive presentation online? Or that people who teach others to go out and cater to that market are snake oil salesman?

    As far as WSO's...

    One wso teaches you how to do SEO, and another teaches you how to SELL your skills in SEO, or build a business model around them that will work...

    NINETY PERCENT of the issues people come to the warrior forum with are that they dont know how to sell their services!

    Are you going to slam people for focusing on teaching them that? The specific thing they came here to learn? How to make sales and money?

    Are you going to be mad because they are being relevant?

    Listen; A central air system is a much better solution that a window sized air conditioning unit, its probably more efficient too, but are you going to slam the guys that sell little window sized air conditioning units, and say they shouldnt cater to the market of people who cant spend ten grand on getting central air installed?

    Ninety percent o f the people who come here come because they dont know how to package their skills into a business model that they can present to the public... thats a problem, and these WSO's focused strictly on sales address that problem, irregardless of how they cater to their customers, a sales wso is not about that, a wso about how to create a business model that the public will respond to is not about that. Just because providing seo value isnt the focus of the teaching, doesnt mean they are teaching you not to do it.

    Separate the issues.

    One teaches you how to create a lead generating product, and another teaches you how to SELL it....There are more people here desperate to learn sales than anything else. Just because each sales report isnt a report on lead generation does not mean that the writers have no regard for providing value to customers.

    Doesnt mean either/or. Again, its very shallow to assume that just because a sales report doesnt go into a 7 part teaching on SEO that the writer has ill intentions,. They are teaching people how to SELL... Get over it. You are worthless as an seo person if you dont know how to sell your services. Try to learn something and get off your high horse.

    Try to make the distinction between the two. A pro consultant can help you design a business model for your auto body repair business and a sales approach , without teaching the finer points of how to repair auto bodies.

    My friend had a consultancy come in and increase his profit by 5 million dollars in the first year of using their strategies, but they didnt know the first thing about wallpaper which is what he manufactured.

    They taught how to get more out of his infrastructure, employees, and all around sales approach. They didnt teach him how to make better wallpaper.

    Intelligent people separate the issues.

    Tell you what "Used cars that people can buy on a buy here pay here basis, might seem like a rip off to a new car salesman, because they dont come with a warranty... but the new car salesman SHUN alot of people who want and need transportation...so these high interest used cars are a LIFESAVER for people who cant meet the standards of the new car salesman, because they need to get back and forth from work". Well alot of business owners need to get online...and NINETY percent of them, do not fit the criteria for having a major advanced 10 or twenty thousand dollar program, but they still need to be on the web.

    I believe in providing value, and I believe in pulling out all the stops for a customer who can afford it...but there are a TON (ninety percent) of people out there who want to be on the web and they need that cheap solution.

    Talk about snake oil?

    Honestly they could hire a FULLTIME data entry person on staff, learn what to do from some WSO's around here, and delegate to that person having them make moves 8 hours per day for twenty grand as a full time employee. They could outsource it all to the Philippines just like most warriors do who mark up their cost.

    You want to provide real value? Turn clients on to your outsourcers so they can get the services for half what you are charging them. Stop marking up their costs sky high for your own benefit.

    Or even better, since you are so sure of yourself...why not offer to make all your money on a percentage of the future sales you are sure to bring in for them instead of charging thousands of dollars up front?

    Dont kid yourself. You are about making money.

    What is value? Its in the eyes of the beholder.

    Im sorry that most IMr's dont get that.

    Im also sorry that they think SEO and traffic are the only benefits to having a website, and I CHALLENGE you to tell a guy in a small town like Dover Arkansas who wants to be on the web, that you are capable of blowing him up with traffic.

    YOU CANT, but I will bet you would still take his 20 grand. Dont lie.

    Sure sell him all the bullshit of how he is going to benefit from article marketing and having a newsletter to keep up with his database of customers... you can barely do ANYTHING for that guy in all honesty, you might increase his "Cat Fish Diner" by a few percent, but most of his market isnt even ON the web, half of them are senior citizens who dont even get on the internet... and he is located on a mountain, in the middle of a nowhere town that no tourists visit.

    I'll bet, again, that you would take his twenty grand anyway, and sell him an elaborate marketing system , if he wanted it!

    Now who is the snake oil salesman?

    Fact is prodigy international paid 800 million dollars for a company that sold "cheap shit"....cheap shit that is VALUABLE to the people who bought it, because salesman like you are oblivious to them and their situations. But I guess 800 million dollar companies are stupid to try and build. I guess you are going to find 800 million dollars worth of people who can pay 20 grand a pop for your elaborate marketing systems right?

    Good luck.

    Dont knock people because they market to the ninety percent. Seems smart to me. It's like the "anti commercial" non published guys sitting in the back row at songwriters bars all over America who are purists, pointing fingers at the published hit writers on stage making money calling them "commercial shit".

    You can hate Britney spears too, and say she isnt a true artist (She isnt) , but the fact is that she is catering to a much bigger market than you are as a purist.

    Let the customers decide what is valuable to them. If only purist artists ran the music business, it would be boring as hell...nobody who didnt write symphonies would ever make it big, and we wouldnt have 3 chord rock n roll. Electric guitars? That aint music, these record buyers are being ripped off! :rolleyes:

    Whatever...

    Now pigeon hole me, take me completely out of context, and tell people to read this post and say that "See, John Durham teaches that you dont have to provide value".

    Then be sure to point out to them where I said that...while you are at it.

    Make the distinctions, separate the issues.

    Sorry for the rant.
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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      First off, before we get into this discussion I'll go back to the same thing we talked about years ago. My entire philosophy is grounded in the Strategy of Preeminence from Jay Abraham.

      As an advisor to your clients, you have the moral obligation to not let your clients buy more or less than they need to get the results they seek
      That has been the foundation of my life for over 10 years. That's the basis of everything I ever do. It's the culture of my company. I just wanted to get that out of the way.


      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      They dont realize that there is a market among small business owners for "cheap shit" and that not all of them can fork out a check for 20 grand, and that being able to get a website up for a few hundred dollars is actually a blessing for them, that they wouldnt otherwise be able to afford. Also they rule out that alot opf people who COULD [pay 20 grand still wouldnt do it in a million years. The njinety percent to be exact.
      John, John, John. Why are you equating value with money? Why? It really is not what I was talking about. There are other points here that I'll get to later. But, for now I don't care if it's a $1 plastic cup at Walmart. It seems like I missed that point in my original post. I'm not saying everyone should be selling $20,000 websites.

      What I'm saying is whatever your price point is, provide outstanding value for your clients. The money is irrelevant. The question you should be asking is how can I blow away my client with this $300 website? It's not very difficult to put together a 20-30 page booklet giving them ideas of what to do to promote themselves on the internet cheaply. I saw no one offering any incentives like that in the "Craigslist test" from a few days ago.

      The money isn't the issue, the value is the issue. Provide $300 websites if that's your thing, but provide the most value for that $300. What you'll find is that you can put together an amazing package of really valuable stuff for them at a very small cost, and guess what you're providing a ton more value than any one else is even attempting to do.

      Does that mean no one should sell them a basic five page website for a reasonable fee, without all the bells and whistles, if that is what the customer is in the market for?

      Hey Im all about selling a program for 20 grand.... but what some dont get is that NINETY PERCENT of the market for internet services out there are looking more for "Cheap Shit", and the ability to have an online presence for them is ignored by the guys who will only sell "EXPENSIVE ELABORATE" shit.
      Again you're missing the point, and getting angry for no reason.

      And I don't think you fundamentally understand what a business owner wants. What a business owner wants is not necessarily "Cheap Shit". What they really want if you were their friend, and they were whispering in your ear the absolute truth is: They don't want to be screwed, and they want some ROI- Verifiable Return on Investment. I.e. If I spend $500 on a website, it's going to help my business. It's going to come back to me.

      Make the jump, make the the distinction!

      You gonna leave that market out there hanging? The NINETY PERCENT? And say that no one should help them get online?

      Are you going to say people are snake oil salesman for helping them get an inexpensive presentation online? Or that people who teach others to go out and cater to that market are snake oil salesman?
      I don't have a problem with it. When did I say I do? It's all about providing value. I can only assume you're hot about the comment about the directories. Hey if your directory has the traffic and generates the calls to make a return on the investment then I have no problem at all. I never heard that was in anyway part of the business plan however. My wife's two business pays a monthly fee in 3 different directories online. But they show up for relevant searches, and we paid for premium placement. The ROI is there. Please let me know if misjudged how the directory system was setup.

      I guess the question is, ask yourself this. Could you look your brother in the eye who was running a business and this was his last $20 in his budget, and tell him that absolutely the best place to put that $20 is into your directory? If you couldn't do that, how much do you really believe in your product? That's the Strategy of Preeminence John, I treat everyone like my client, I have the moral obligation to help guide them to do what is in their best interest.

      I might charge a client $1,000 or $100,000. I'm absolutely sure that my clients get 10x-20x-100x whatever they give me. That's the test. And also I'm not overselling them stuff because they are willing to give me money. For instance I have my clients ask me if they should make apps, and I tell them no it's not necessary. Yet they go around me sometimes and spend $2-20k on an app that no one will ever use. Because of my fundamental strategy, I cannot sell them any more or less than they actually need. That's what I do. I cement myself as a trusted advisor to the client.


      In the past I've mostly done rentals, lead gen, licensing and consulting. I absolutely made sure that my clients got way more back from what I provided them than I ever asked in return. I provided real value. It's what I do.

      I don't really know what WSO rant was about. Maybe in return to Underground? I wasn't banging your WSO's was I? Let me read my post again.


      I believe in providing value, and I believe in pulling out all the stops for a customer who can afford it...but there are a TON (ninety percent) of people out there who want to be on the web and they need that cheap solution.


      Talk about snake oil?
      Please quote me when I said that you have to price your stuff high to have value? I just don't get it. What did I write? I was actually pretty sick that day and running a 103 fever so anything is possible.

      Ok, I read it. I did say I don't charge $500. Did you think I was in the $20k range for websites? Not hardly, I wish.

      I'm going to tell you how much I charge, but not quite yet. Let me ask you this John. If the normal website designed by an average designer for $500-1000 with their current traffic gets them around $20-25k in business. And my website system gets them more business, gets them better business, gets them higher paying business, so that they can show that they make between $60-70k in business per year from their website. But in reality it's better than that because it's MUCH more profitable than the $20k they were getting before. How much is that worth? On average we can take a website and after going through the ringer get it to convert at usually 3-10x what a normal website does. We know because we have testing that proves EXACTLY that(PPC to old $20k marketing firm website to our split-tested and optimized site).

      We typically charge $2-5k to our clients. Of course now I like to be in control so I only do site rental/lead gen. I wish we still did it, I'd do the presentation for you. You'd see by the end of it, getting a website done by us is the ONLY logical choice.


      Honestly they could hire a FULLTIME data entry person on staff, learn what to do from some WSO's around here, and delegate to that person having them make moves 8 hours per day for twenty grand as a full time employee. They could outsource it all to the Philippines just like most warriors do who mark up their cost.
      That's ignoring the reality of what business owners want. They want to make pizza's, not figure out how to "trick" google. This doesn't really reflect reality.

      You want to provide real value? Turn clients on to your outsourcers so they can get the services for half what you are charging them. Stop marking up their costs sky high for your own benefit.

      Or even better, since you are so sure of yourself...why not offer to make all your money on a percentage of the future sales you are sure to bring in for them instead of charging thousands of dollars up front?

      Dont kid yourself. You are about making money.
      Now John, you're starting to get personal. Really?

      Do you really think I'm taking the same $500 website and charging $20k? Did you even read what I said? I provided EXACTLY what they needed. Yes, they thought they wanted a simple five page website. But what they really needed was the absolute best salesperson they have ever hired to be working 24 hours a day on the internets for them. I provide what they need, what they think they want. I ultimately provided a TON more value.

      Let me give an example from a company we did two years back. We didn't have a ton of experience in the field. So as we were doing our testing, and working on the design etc. We extensively interviewed the owners, we talked to the best sales person. Then we asked for a list of people who called in making inquiries. We called everyone back asked them why they bought or chose not to buy. My grand total cost around $200 for that work. We were actually able to get enough clients to call the company back just because OUR people had called that the website was paid for and then some.

      If you don't know why people are buying, why are you building a website for someone selling it? Don't guess. Do your homework. That website converts at well over 10x what it did before. Because we delivered EXACTLY what the customer wanted, and it wasn't PRICE. And the business was way more profitable, not just because of the website, but because they finally had real actionable information on why the customers were buying or not buying. Twenty years of business, they thought they were getting a website, instead they finally now know how to make their business better.



      What is value? Its in the eyes of the beholder.

      Im sorry that most IMr's dont get that.

      Im also sorry that they think SEO and traffic are the only benefits to having a website, and I CHALLENGE you to tell a guy in a small town like Dover Arkansas who wants to be on the web, that you are capable of blowing him up with traffic.

      YOU CANT, but I will bet you would still take his 20 grand. Dont lie.
      Again really John? If you follow what I have said, I only target multi location businesses. That's it. I don't work with anyone else. I don't want to work with anyone else. I want to only work with people that are going to make an extra million dollars next year from working with me.

      Sure sell him all the bullshit of how he is going to benefit from article marketing and having a newsletter to keep up with his database of customers... you can barely do ANYTHING for that guy in all honesty, you might increase his "Cat Fish Diner" by a few percent, but most of his market isnt even ON the web, half of them are senior citizens who dont even get on the internet... and he is located on a mountain, in the middle of a nowhere town that no tourists visit.

      I'll bet, again, that you would take his twenty grand anyway, and sell him an elaborate marketing system , if he wanted it!

      Now who is the snake oil salesman?
      Me? I guess that's the answer you want to hear. So I'm going to say me. If that makes you smile, then I have succeeded.

      Fact is prodigy international paid 800 million dollars for a company that sold "cheap shit"....cheap shit that is VALUABLE to the people who bought it, because salesman like you are oblivious to them and their situations. But I guess 800 million dollar companies are stupid to try and build. I guess you are going to find 800 million dollars worth of people who can pay 20 grand a pop for your elaborate marketing systems right?
      It's not what I would advise one of my clients to do, it's just not. Sorry. If the ROI is there then fine, it's a market specific directory I might. But ultimately as their advisor I have the moral obligation to only suggest ideas that have a chance to get them money. I'd be much more inclined to advise them to spend $20 a month on Bing ads.

      Good luck.

      Dont knock people because they market to the ninety percent. Seems smart to me.
      I didn't. I don't.

      Let the customers decide what is valuable to them.
      Here's my soap box again. As a customer, yes I can let them decide what is valuable to them. But because I have taken this other outlook in life, everyone is my client. As my client I have the moral obligation to educate them on what should be valuable and important to them, because they don't know any better. Almost no one comes to your business as an educated consumer. Regardless of your business. What if you're a plumber. Do they know what the difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber is? Do they know the difference between insurance that can actually pay for any damages vs insurance that is only as good as the paper it's written on? Etc. Many customers/clients think it's about price. But when you really, really ask them it's about a lot more than price.

      I honestly don't think the consumer knows what is valuable or right if they did they could fix it/buy it/do it themselves. They are looking for assistance and guidance. When you practice the strategy of preeminence you can do exactly that. And again it's not about dollars.

      I can only guess you were having a bad day John. I love ya dude. Relax, have a chamomille tea or a beer. I wasn't attacking you.

      Marcos
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      @ Clean mountain living. Your model is excellent. I hope you stick with with it and keep moving forward smooth and steady.

      I think people assume, as underground displays here, that just because a wso focuses on teaching someone how to actually make sales, that the other side (benefit for the customer) doesnt also exist.



      Personally, my own wso's are focused on teaching people to "sell", and create business models and sales processes that work...AND THEY DO! For everyone who applies them as prescribed.

      If you look around this forum that is the NUMBER ONE biggest problem people come here with. They dont know how to sell. There are a thousand broke SEO guys who cant sell their services to save their life. Thats what I personally focus on teaching. That; and designing a business model that sells, makes sense, and where all the various aspects work synergistically.

      Thats what we talk about at the warrior forum if you havent noticed the slogan "How to Make Money".

      Unfortunately, some can't make the jump and believe somehow that a teaching based on making sales means is synonymous with not providing value. Like it's "either/or".

      Hello????????

      They take sales advice out of context as if we are saying that you shouldnt care about providing value for the customer.

      Many people make hateful assumptions amd shallow assertions about people who teach strictly sales or business models, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

      They dont realize that there is a market among small business owners for "cheap shit" and that not all of them can fork out a check for 20 grand, and that being able to get a website up for a few hundred dollars is actually a blessing for them, that they wouldnt otherwise be able to afford. Also they rule out that alot opf people who COULD [pay 20 grand still wouldnt do it in a million years. The njinety percent to be exact.

      Does that mean no one should sell them a basic five page website for a reasonable fee, without all the bells and whistles, if that is what the customer is in the market for?

      Hey Im all about selling a program for 20 grand.... but what some dont get is that NINETY PERCENT of the market for internet services out there are looking more for "Cheap Shit", and the ability to have an online presence for them is ignored by the guys who will only sell "EXPENSIVE ELABORATE" shit.

      Make the jump, make the the distinction!

      You gonna leave that market out there hanging? The NINETY PERCENT? And say that no one should help them get online?

      Are you going to say people are snake oil salesman for helping them get an inexpensive presentation online? Or that people who teach others to go out and cater to that market are snake oil salesman?

      As far as WSO's...

      One wso teaches you how to do SEO, and another teaches you how to SELL your skills in SEO, or build a business model around them that will work...

      NINETY PERCENT of the issues people come to the warrior forum with are that they dont know how to sell their services!

      Are you going to slam people for focusing on teaching them that? The specific thing they came here to learn? How to make sales and money?

      Are you going to be mad because they are being relevant?

      Listen; A central air system is a much better solution that a window sized air conditioning unit, its probably more efficient too, but are you going to slam the guys that sell little window sized air conditioning units, and say they shouldnt cater to the market of people who cant spend ten grand on getting central air installed?

      Ninety percent o f the people who come here come because they dont know how to package their skills into a business model that they can present to the public... thats a problem, and these WSO's focused strictly on sales address that problem, irregardless of how they cater to their customers, a sales wso is not about that, a wso about how to create a business model that the public will respond to is not about that. Just because providing seo value isnt the focus of the teaching, doesnt mean they are teaching you not to do it.

      Separate the issues.

      One teaches you how to create a lead generating product, and another teaches you how to SELL it....There are more people here desperate to learn sales than anything else. Just because each sales report isnt a report on lead generation does not mean that the writers have no regard for providing value to customers.

      Doesnt mean either/or. Again, its very shallow to assume that just because a sales report doesnt go into a 7 part teaching on SEO that the writer has ill intentions,. They are teaching people how to SELL... Get over it. You are worthless as an seo person if you dont know how to sell your services. Try to learn something and get off your high horse.

      Try to make the distinction between the two. A pro consultant can help you design a business model for your auto body repair business and a sales approach , without teaching the finer points of how to repair auto bodies.

      My friend had a consultancy come in and increase his profit by 5 million dollars in the first year of using their strategies, but they didnt know the first thing about wallpaper which is what he manufactured.

      They taught how to get more out of his infrastructure, employees, and all around sales approach. They didnt teach him how to make better wallpaper.

      Intelligent people separate the issues.

      Tell you what "Used cars that people can buy on a buy here pay here basis, might seem like a rip off to a new car salesman, because they dont come with a warranty... but the new car salesman SHUN alot of people who want and need transportation...so these high interest used cars are a LIFESAVER for people who cant meet the standards of the new car salesman, because they need to get back and forth from work". Well alot of business owners need to get online...and NINETY percent of them, do not fit the criteria for having a major advanced 10 or twenty thousand dollar program, but they still need to be on the web.

      I believe in providing value, and I believe in pulling out all the stops for a customer who can afford it...but there are a TON (ninety percent) of people out there who want to be on the web and they need that cheap solution.

      Talk about snake oil?

      Honestly they could hire a FULLTIME data entry person on staff, learn what to do from some WSO's around here, and delegate to that person having them make moves 8 hours per day for twenty grand as a full time employee. They could outsource it all to the Philippines just like most warriors do who mark up their cost.

      You want to provide real value? Turn clients on to your outsourcers so they can get the services for half what you are charging them. Stop marking up their costs sky high for your own benefit.

      Or even better, since you are so sure of yourself...why not offer to make all your money on a percentage of the future sales you are sure to bring in for them instead of charging thousands of dollars up front?

      Dont kid yourself. You are about making money.

      What is value? Its in the eyes of the beholder.

      Im sorry that most IMr's dont get that.

      Im also sorry that they think SEO and traffic are the only benefits to having a website, and I CHALLENGE you to tell a guy in a small town like Dover Arkansas who wants to be on the web, that you are capable of blowing him up with traffic.

      YOU CANT, but I will bet you would still take his 20 grand. Dont lie.

      Sure sell him all the bullshit of how he is going to benefit from article marketing and having a newsletter to keep up with his database of customers... you can barely do ANYTHING for that guy in all honesty, you might increase his "Cat Fish Diner" by a few percent, but most of his market isnt even ON the web, half of them are senior citizens who dont even get on the internet... and he is located on a mountain, in the middle of a nowhere town that no tourists visit.

      I'll bet, again, that you would take his twenty grand anyway, and sell him an elaborate marketing system , if he wanted it!

      Now who is the snake oil salesman?

      Fact is prodigy international paid 800 million dollars for a company that sold "cheap shit"....cheap shit that is VALUABLE to the people who bought it, because salesman like you are oblivious to them and their situations. But I guess 800 million dollar companies are stupid to try and build. I guess you are going to find 800 million dollars worth of people who can pay 20 grand a pop for your elaborate marketing systems right?

      Good luck.

      Dont knock people because they market to the ninety percent. Seems smart to me. It's like the "anti commercial" non published guys sitting in the back row at songwriters bars all over America who are purists, pointing fingers at the published hit writers on stage making money calling them "commercial shit".

      You can hate Britney spears too, and say she isnt a true artist (She isnt) , but the fact is that she is catering to a much bigger market than you are as a purist.

      Let the customers decide what is valuable to them. If only purist artists ran the music business, it would be boring as hell...nobody who didnt write symphonies would ever make it big, and we wouldnt have 3 chord rock n roll. Electric guitars? That aint music, these record buyers are being ripped off! :rolleyes:

      Whatever...

      Now pigeon hole me, take me completely out of context, and tell people to read this post and say that "See, John Durham teaches that you dont have to provide value".

      Then be sure to point out to them where I said that...while you are at it.

      Make the distinctions, separate the issues.

      Sorry for the rant.


      I wouldn't take the twenty grand for some puffed up marketing system that was full of tat, like buying 5000 facebook likes from facebook fans in Outer Mongolia that will do nothing for the business owner. I have more integrity than be a low-life like that and could make the money above board. I just wouldn't, not unless the packages warranted it in terms of results or fulfilling a need beyond that and of greater value. And I will be passing on complete marketing/lead gen systems in products I choose to create whilst also letting business owners they could hire an employee from abroad to run the system for them, and have been thinking of that lately.

      I don't know why I'm defending those things, which are quite ludicrous accusations really, or why you choose the need to say them.

      Actually, I think I do now. You obviously thought I thought low-cost was synonymous with cheap/snake oil/selling one's soul.

      Not at all. And you've outlined why they are not and why there is value in low cost solutions perfectly well and I wouldn't disagree.


      John, no one has provided more value to this forum than you, or given as freely, as valuably and as passionately. And at no cost for the great majority, and with your paid stuff actually making others money. I've seen your detractors and haters and the cynics and what they say about you, but the reality and truth is you bring it more than anyone on here and are referenced by the most people who have actually made big money, and the trash talk is unwarranted in your case.

      You are in a rare minority and small percentage of people who actually truly care. That's obvious. And I'm not being fawning or sycophantic, just honest. I don't fully know why you are defending the morons and cretins who are so possessed with greed that they pray on newbies to this forum who don't know what day it is yet and will happily sell them something that actively opposes and trash-talks the real, fundamental business skills needed for success and who pretends they are not needed with this new ninja trick or sending an email with a link in it or something as similarly insubstantial and dishonest, just so they can sell their WSO.



      Some people come to this forum, and the luck of the draw favours them early on. They buy from one of those individuals who wants to point them in the right direction for success and truly provide the info they'll need to do that. Most other will spend years and a lot of money buying complete shit from some deluded idiot selling some inconsequential little trick that will be not make even a little dent in the buyer's future success when the dust settles, but for which they have used (repurposed) all the copywriting swipefiles and influence tricks and techniques to hype it up as the latest, greatest thing when it's nonsense without being taught with the big picture, and only a tiny part of the big picture needed for success.


      They all use the same copy as the greats, the same headlines, same methods, same everything while completely ignoring the advice of people like Dan Kennedy (where they learned most of their marketing skills) to make sure the product is a good one.

      Even in one very popular copywriting book, Copyw for the Web or something, one of the examples is some miracle cure for cancer. The copywriter has no concern for the truth and veracity of the claims, is happy to hype this quakery and snake oil and sell false hope to gullible and desperate people either dealing with cancer themselves or through a loved one.



      Seeing how much junk there is on here over the years, and how long it takes people on average to figure out what is actually very simple when someone honest and real gives them the big picture of what is needed for success online or off, simply because they keep running across frauds and and bs's selling them garbage, then I'm beyond convincing, and you couldn't berate me enough for me to change my mind that the OP is right and most have it wrong about value. Yes, someone will succeed selling utter drivel to clueless people here and elsewhere, off course. But most success cases and people with clout get there because they provided real value. I know you obviously know this. And got where you have in terms of the respect people have for you because of that.


      Most of the websites and work I've seen people provide for clients at premium rates has been cheap, amateur-night awfulness and I wonder how these people (in particular IM marketers) have no shame. And reminded me of IT lessons at school when I first came across desktop design applications, as they are on the same level, design wise as what I used to knock up back then. They just look appalling. If you are going to provide high value at a premium, then provide it.

      If they just want a low-cost, quick ''that'll do as long as I have my phone number and business details on the web'', and you sell them that, no problem.

      I understand the distinction.

      This is Mike Cooche's site. Small Business Internet Marketing Services :: Kutenda

      He says he monthly rev is up to $300,000 a month now. His tagline is marketing as a service. And it's clear his company strives to provide a valuable service that really benefits clients, even if some of the packages his company offers are low-cost ones.

      I saw Alex Jeffrey's, like you one of the real people in marketing, make the distinction between those looking to make money and those looking to start a business. Those looking for money will jump on any shiny object that comes along, if someone bs's them they'll be selling this things at top whack in their sleep. That's their concern. Not if there is a market out there with that need. They don't care about that or even consider that far. If someone says it will make them easy money they'll sell.

      That's fine. But when they are ripping people off, selling them cheap shit at a premium, misleading them, holding them back in life or whatever, then that's different.


      I'm sure this discussion is well known here Third Tribe Marketing. I'm in the third tribe. I know there is a need to sell. I think there is a way to do it and keep self-respect and integrity intact.

      Anyway, thanks John. Recently I've been really inspired by your posts and they really helped me clarify what I needed to do in my business and where I need to put my focus. And that I need to get doing it and expect to stumble and fumble, until I get into the zone.


      I have a week coming up of pure prospecting. And I know to not expect perfection from the first call be to develop as time goes on, like you pointed out with the guitar analogy in the conditioning mp3. I know I will be learning an invaluable skill and to just keep at it.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    @ Mike

    Billy Gibbons...figures... he is the scratch harmonic king. It's really a personal preference. I use to do alot of what they call "flat picking" which is all about sounding clean, clear and rolling back and forth across the strings fast, with no "scratch". Tort was best for that, its what all the flat pickers used, but its now illegal.

    Certain picks bring out more of the strings authentic tone, mostly good for acoustic playing, where as rock uses all kinds of pick harmonic techniques, scratches, muffles... so the pick doesnt matter as much. Especially nowadays , most people use active electronics, so it REALLY doesnt matter...nother subject altogether.

    On a quick note: The new trend of everyone using active electronics (specifically emg 81/85 pickups) makes modern $400 dollar guitars sound the same as modern $4,000 ones.

    There is no difference in sound between a cheap les paul copy and a $4,000 les paul if both use emg's. The pick tone matters very little, it's more about the pick "technique". Although it does make SOME difference.

    On acoustics though, it will always matter. One pick really connects, and another sounds like a playing card going through the spokes of a bicycle wheel.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    To bring the thread back around...

    Just because I know that the attributes of an 80 dollar pick have tremendous advantages... doesnt mean that a 25 cent pick isnt a good solution, or even a "quarter" for that matter, to a person who has no pick, and cant afford 80 bucks...or (this is interesting) for a person who would never spend 80 bucks on a pick even if they COULD afford it, no matter WHAT the advantages.

    "Just give me a peice of plastic, thats all I want".

    "Just get me an online brochure, thats all I want".

    Me: "But ...but... you dont understand... Ancient amber is the only pick that will...and plastic doesnt bring out the full tone, and....and..."

    Them: "Look, I want to spend 25 cents, and I want a plastic pick, can you do that or not?"

    That's NINETY PERCENT of the pick buyers. I guarantee there are more plastic 25 cent pick buyers than there are amber 80 dollar pick buyers... and that the plastic pick companies have more growth potential.

    You can focus on the needs of the "market" and just sell the best 25 cent plastic picks made, and sell MILLIONS of them... or.... you can try to force your own agenda and find the rare 80 dollar pick buyer here and there.

    Yes, 80 dollar ones are better, yes plastic ones suck to anyone who uses 80 dollar ones... Doesnt change the fact that ninety percent of the market will never buy an 80 dollar pick, but they are ALL in the pick market, metaphorically speaking.

    Smart sellers focus on the market...and there are different markets that exist.

    I know there are webmaster forums out there... I always thought the WF was where we talk about "making money" though...

    -John
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  • Profile picture of the author Natasha2003
    John

    Check your PM
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