SEO is a pain in the....[please excuse my rant]

78 replies
Hi,

I have a small IT Consulting Business, I've managed to rank my site on first page and even first position with a couple of competitive local keywords.

I've worked very hard on content creation, SEO, SMM... etc. the whole nine yard. I'm getting really tired and annoyed by the ROI. I've enjoyed the process of learning about online marketing, but now I want to see results. I need leads not first page

Its very very difficult to find good reliable content creators, even harder to find good honest SEO technicians. I've tried everything from cheap ODESK freelancers to expensive SEO companies. Is there anybody out there who can do decent SEO and lead generation for a reasonable price?

or if not SEO what else should I do to generate more leads?

Thanks, and I take my answer off the air
#excuse #lead generation #pain #rant #seo #smm #theplease
  • Profile picture of the author bob ross
    Direct mail might work very well for you. Ever thought of trying it?
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  • Profile picture of the author skynandi
    I haven't. I should look into it, but I want my future clients to come begging for me to do the work
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  • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
    I've spent thousands on SEO and never got a return. It's the least reliable form of advertising that I've tried. I've used 3 different companies. They all claim that the last guy was a hack, but the results are all the same. It's the favorite invisible product of many IM'ers.

    With less energy you can set up and improve a PPC account. At least you know that your ads will get seen. In my business, PPC and print advertising is money in the bank.
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    • Profile picture of the author skynandi
      Thanks for the tip. I've always thought Organic SEO is the way to go, but it looks like even seasoned Internet Marketers are using ads instead of relining on SEO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Samuel Adams
      Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

      I've spent thousands on SEO and never got a return. It's the least reliable form of advertising that I've tried. I've used 3 different companies. They all claim that the last guy was a hack, but the results are all the same. It's the favorite invisible product of many IM'ers.

      With less energy you can set up and improve a PPC account. At least you know that your ads will get seen. In my business, PPC and print advertising is money in the bank.
      PPC is the fastest and easiest way to get potential qualified customers to your site. So long as you target well with your chosen keywords so that your ads match user interests, this won't be a waste of time or money.
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      • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
        Originally Posted by Samuel Adams View Post

        PPC is the fastest and easiest way to get potential qualified customers to your site. So long as you target well with your chosen keywords so that your ads match user interests, this won't be a waste of time or money.
        Hi Samuel,

        This is how I currently leverage search engines to produce leads. Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author massiveray
    Whoa what's with the SEO bashing?

    Ya'll need to understand one simple fact.... Amateurs can't and shouldn't do SEO.

    Now OP you may have ranked yourself on the first page for some "competitive terms" but as you said you want leads.

    I doubt from what you say that you have really tried expensive SEO companies as in all honesty they will understand what you need and how to get it. The fact is you might rank for "IT consultant Pooptown" or whatever.

    But is that what your potential clients are typing into Google? do they even know they need and IT consultant, because I'm telling you right now, I have no idea what that means, what can you actually do for my business?

    People type into search engines the very specific problems they are experiencing, things like, "can't access the internet", "broken computer mouse" etc etc

    They may not be the sexiest terms to rank for but I'm willing to bet that all 3 people who search those terms each month will click on the result of whoever is actually optimised for that term and they probably call them too.

    A real SEO understands this, we know that lead generation doesn't come from ranking for an untested keyword. We test them using PPC to see if they generate leads, we know that on average the 10th result on the first page gets more traffic than the 9th, we know how to make somebody click your results that is in 2nd instead of whoever is ranked in 1st.

    Why do we know all of this? because it's our full time job, this is what you do, while you're consulting computers or whatever, I'm testing all of this shit so when somebody like you complains that he can't get any leads, I can charge you a fortune to provide them for you.

    Direct mail may be the way forward for you, I don't know your industry, I don't know what your target audience are searching for, I don't know what their problems are but I do know that if you hired somebody like me you'd get your leads.

    I'm not having a go, all I mean by this is that from the sounds of it nobody on this thread so far knows how to use SEO effectively.
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    • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
      Originally Posted by massiveray View Post


      I'm not having a go, all I mean by this is that from the sounds of it nobody on this thread so far knows how to use SEO effectively.
      Easy to say, much more difficult to deliver. I don't need to know SEO. I have a pretty sizeable ad budget and using it for SEO has never been a success. Thats a fact. I've used a few guys from this board that talk just like you...... That's another fact. Sure, my target keywords improved, but never reached a level that brought traffic. I can run a print ad or put that money in my PPC account and my phone system lights up like clock work.

      I'll stick with advertising that I can rely on. It's hard to put SEO on a marketing calendar because it's a train that for many never arrives and even when it does can be taken away on Googles next whim.

      I'm just weary of the SEO business model. Take a client's monthly fee and ask them to be patient. If they never get the traffic it's no skin off of your behind..... You've already got their cash. Rinse and repeat!
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      • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
        Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

        Easy to say, much more difficult to deliver. I don't need to know SEO. I have a pretty sizeable ad budget and using it for SEO has never been a success. Thats a fact. I've used a few guys from this board that talk just like you...... That's another fact. Sure, my target keywords improved, but never reached a level that brought traffic. I can run a print ad or put that money in my PPC account and my phone system lights up like clock work.


        Providing SEO is a great business model. Take a client's monthly fee and ask them to be patient. If they never get the traffic it's no skin off of your behind..... You've already got their cash. Rinse and repeat!
        Wow... what a great point of view.
        Sorry you've been screwed by SEO providers and have now decided to be a disrespectful dick to people that may provide a legitimate service.
        Have I ranked my sites? Yes
        Did I get endless streams of traffic and leads? No
        Am I better off on the middle of page 10? I don't think so.
        SEO is effective, when done right. Don't belive me? When you search for something, do you click the links on page 1 or 10?
        You should be ranking for around 50 + keywords, if the people you hired were effective. Lets assume you are, since you are ranked but aren't seeing results....
        How much testing have you done on your site to increase conversions?
        You can lead a horse to water.....

        Also, SEO shouldn't be your only traffic source
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

          Easy to say, much more difficult to deliver. I don't need to know SEO. I have a pretty sizeable ad budget and using it for SEO has never been a success. Thats a fact. I've used a few guys from this board that talk just like you...... That's another fact. Sure, my target keywords improved, but never reached a level that brought traffic. I can run a print ad or put that money in my PPC account and my phone system lights up like clock work.

          I'll stick with advertising that I can rely on. It's hard to put SEO on a marketing calendar because it's a train that for many never arrives and even when it does can be taken away on Googles next whim.

          I'm just weary of the SEO business model. Take a client's monthly fee and ask them to be patient. If they never get the traffic it's no skin off of your behind..... You've already got their cash. Rinse and repeat!
          LOL

          Okay... so, you open this up and say... "I don't need to know about SEO".. And you wonder why the companies you have hired, or low ballers that advertise their crap services on THIS forum, aren't giving you a return on your investment? It isn't that SEO doesn't work, it is because you don't know what to look for in an SEO company.

          The thing is, most people hawking SEO services are as clueless as the people that are buying it. I would say 50% of the people selling SEO, don't even do SEO. They outsource it to someone on odesk who hasn't the slightest clue what to do, just some blogs they read about 3 years ago so not they think they are proficient enough, and they are proficient enough to sell you on it just like you sell customers on it.

          People that don't like the SEO model, are people that don't know what an SEO model is. People that complain saying that SEO doesn't work, are using companies or freelancers that don't know what they are doing.

          vndnbrgj - You said SEO shouldn't be your only traffic source, but that is incorrect. It very well can be your only traffic source, you're just limiting what you feel is SEO, even though there is much more to it than you realize.

          Think about it... SEO takes time right? That is why EVERY SEO campaign on a national level or even competitive local levels, should be first tested with PPC. Why do you test? Because you want to make sure that your keywords are converting. What is the point in wasting TIME if the keywords are low performance keywords and they don't convert. Of course, you also have to do some CRO to maximize performance but you should already have an idea before you even approach SEO.

          Next, when SEO is done properly, it isn't about keywords. It is always about leads, money, sales, customer acquisition. It isn't about a flashy page 1 rank 1 spot. If SEO is done correctly, your organic traffic is only going to be a PORTION of your traffic. True SEO is more about overall awareness, page traffic, branding, etc. People want to break down everything to do with online marketing as PPC, SEM, SEO, SMM, but really your SEO campaigns should simply be an online marketing campaign. That is the REAL sure fire way to stay in the good graces of google no matter what algo update there will be in the future. Many times, the top spots are occupied by companies that have a better online marketing campaign than the ones below. I am a firm believer in that you should ignore all the crap about nofollow vs. dofollow... forget about grabbing any link you can, your focus in link building should be to only build links that can generate clicks to your website, otherwise, it is useless.

          Also... For the SEO bashers... you have to be a complete and utter idiot to discredit SEO but then you turn to PPC. Do you realize that PPC and SEO go hand in hand? You're going to have to optimize your landing pages... and if your pages aren't optimized you're wasting money in higher cost per clicks.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            ^^ most of what Nameless said.
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          • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            LOL

            Okay... so, you open this up and say... "I don't need to know about SEO".. And you wonder why the companies you have hired, or low ballers that advertise their crap services on THIS forum, aren't giving you a return on your investment? It isn't that SEO doesn't work, it is because you don't know what to look for in an SEO company.


            Also... For the SEO bashers... you have to be a complete and utter idiot to discredit SEO but then you turn to PPC. Do you realize that PPC and SEO go hand in hand? You're going to have to optimize your landing pages... and if your pages aren't optimized you're wasting money in higher cost per clicks.
            First of all, you make a lot of assumptions without any facts. I will not defame another member, but I could give you the name of my SEO and I can assure you that he's a great guy and well respected.

            Again, I don't need to know how to do SEO, that's why I spend money to hire someone. If I have a dent in my car I don't need to know paint and body. That's someone else's job. If I spent the time to learn SEO then I'd just do it myself. The fact is that it makes no sense for me to do a task that I can hire someone for about $100 an hour and skip all of the trial and error and study time.

            I used a pretty large firm for my first try at SEO and it did not pay out. They charged about $1000 a month for a hand full of local keywords. The plan was to start out at $1000 SEO and $2k for PPC monthly. Over time we were to continue to add keywords to the SEO campaign and slowly scale down the PPC. I was to have a gradual budget increase to $5k a month for SEO and be optimized for a lot of local keywords. The problem is that I never got traffic, so why invest more?

            The company that I am using now charges about the same and as I said is respected by many on this board. If that's lowballers then count me out of throwing more money at the issue. I don't think that either of these two companies are dishonest. They are not link sellers or spammers. I just think that ranking some keywords in certain areas is tough.

            Initially, I had only intended to use PPC to find the right keywords for my SEO campaign and to get instant traffic. Over time, PPC produces leads and SEO doesn't bring additional traffic(for me) It's that simple.
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        • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
          Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post

          You can lead a horse to water.....Also, SEO shouldn't be your only traffic source
          It's not a conversion problem, Son! It's additional traffic that's the issue. Can't convert traffic that never shows up. Did you read my post fully before responding? I do lots of print that drives traffic and I spend several thousand a month on PPC.
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          • Profile picture of the author MarkJez
            Sorry, but I don't understand this rant

            Whenever I've read good ebooks and WSO's etc. about SEO, almost all of them talk about DOMINATING the first page of Google for your main keywords and long-tail buyer keywords.

            I.e. Dominating the first page of G. is for the Pros. while just getting a number 1 or 2 ranking in G. is for the Amateurs!!

            When you dominate almost the whole of the first page of Google, you are effectively forcing almost all of your competitors onto the second page of G.

            Again, what I've read is that you achieve this by using Exact Match Domains, Videos, Landing-pages, Press Releases, PPC, Articles, Squidoo Lens, Hub Pages, Google + Local listing, etc. etc.

            If your company absolutely dominates the first page of Google (using the above methods and more), then you should get more qualified leads.

            My advice would be to contact an SEO consultant who has an excellent track record of dominating the first page of Google for his or her clients.

            In addition, some of the above methods (e.g. creating a Squidoo Lens) you may be able to do yourself, as it is not difficult.

            In addition, getting a Google Authorship, can mean that your photo appears alongside your Google listing. This has been proven to increase click-throughs.

            Just my two cents.
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      • Profile picture of the author massiveray
        This post tells me everything I need to know about your SEO problems, guys who talk like me shouldn't be selling SEO on these boards or any other boards. To develop the knowledge and confidence/arrogance in my ability that I have, you have to be in the business every single day. Running tests and experimenting with different ways of acquiring links.

        Think of it this way, your PPC makes your phone light up right? why would those exact same terms not make your phone light up from SEO? would your phone ring more if you had an organic result and a paid result?

        You simply don't know what you're looking for or probably more accurately, you just don't know how to find it. This is evident from the fact that you have hired somebody from this site.

        Simple fact is that if you've hired an SEO to get you leads and you're not getting them, you haven't hired a real SEO.

        Example: A recent client of mine who sells bespoke kitchens, gets a shit ton of traffic from a single link we built for him, now the page in question is very authoritative and will definitely help his rankings but that wasn't the aim of posting to the site, we saw that the people who visit the site would most likely be interested in what my client has to offer, so we negotiated a showcase on their site and this drives traffic and most importantly, it drives sales.

        I don't care if he ranks at number 1 or number 3 for a keyword, what I care about is that the things we are doing make him money. I haven't checked recently but I'm almost certain that this 1 link we built is probably the biggest revenue driver of anything else he is doing online.

        Point being, your experience with SEO guys has been bad because you haven't hired the right guy.

        Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

        Easy to say, much more difficult to deliver. I don't need to know SEO. I have a pretty sizeable ad budget and using it for SEO has never been a success. Thats a fact. I've used a few guys from this board that talk just like you...... That's another fact. Sure, my target keywords improved, but never reached a level that brought traffic. I can run a print ad or put that money in my PPC account and my phone system lights up like clock work.

        I'll stick with advertising that I can rely on. It's hard to put SEO on a marketing calendar because it's a train that for many never arrives and even when it does can be taken away on Googles next whim.

        I'm just weary of the SEO business model. Take a client's monthly fee and ask them to be patient. If they never get the traffic it's no skin off of your behind..... You've already got their cash. Rinse and repeat!
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        • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
          Originally Posted by massiveray View Post

          Point being, your experience with SEO guys has been bad because you haven't hired the right guy.
          This is the problem with most people that sell SEO. You automatically assume that every other provider is a know nothing hack. You assume that they can't be competent because I did not achieve an ROI. Are you saying that everyone on this site is incompetent at SEO except you? lol, that's rich.
          You make statements regarding my results and know nothing about my business, my site or the competition.

          I know full well that SEO can make the phones light up. It's a no brainer. It's just that I have no intention of throwing more money away on something that hasn't produced in over 2 years of eating in to my ad budget.
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          • Profile picture of the author massiveray
            Most people are know nothing hacks, not everybody on here is incompetent, just the ones who sell SEO on this forum.

            I don't need to know anything about your business, you have a huge budget and have received no leads from SEO, this means that whoever was doing it wasn't doing it right.

            If you were hiring the right person, they'd do whatever your business needs to generate traffic and leads and therefore money.

            I am also not saying that you have to hire an SEO, what I'm saying is that stating that it isn't worth the investment is ridiculous.

            I'd go on but iAmNameLess pretty much sums up the rest of my argument above.

            Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

            This is the problem with most people that sell SEO. You automatically assume that every other provider is a know nothing hack. You assume that they can't be competent because I did not achieve an ROI. Are you saying that everyone on this site is incompetent at SEO except you? lol, that's rich.
            You make statements regarding my results and know nothing about my business, my site or the competition.

            I know full well that SEO can make the phones light up. It's a no brainer. It's just that I have no intention of throwing more money away on something that hasn't produced in over 2 years of eating in to my ad budget.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patbinc
        Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post


        I'll stick with advertising that I can rely on. It's hard to put SEO on a marketing calendar because it's a train that for many never arrives and even when it does can be taken away on Googles next whim.

        I'm just weary of the SEO business model. Take a client's monthly fee and ask them to be patient. If they never get the traffic it's no skin off of your behind..... You've already got their cash. Rinse and repeat!
        My word...couldn't have put it better. Point taken - stick to what I know works for sure and leave the rest to the wind
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      • Profile picture of the author affiliatemom
        Good SEO professionals treat a business as if it is their business, so they should not take the money and go (without or before a BO gets results that more than pay for their services.)

        Two good points made.

        Any service provider should CARE. Then add proficiency and a few other ingredients and you have a better scenario altogether.

        Fact is though, SEO is a slower way. It just is.
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  • If you are getting traffic, but no conversions, I'd take another look at your content. Good content is one thing, and good content that drives click-thrus, email sign-ups, downloads, and sales is another.
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    • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
      Originally Posted by KingOfContentMarketing View Post

      If you are getting traffic, but no conversions, I'd take another look at your content. Good content is one thing, and good content that drives click-thrus, email sign-ups, downloads, and sales is another.

      The OP may have a conversion issue, but I don't. Google PPC is my lowest cost per lead source. Google customers also produce my highest average sale and closing ratio.
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      • Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

        The OP may have a conversion issue, but I don't. Google PPC is my lowest cost per lead source. Google customers also produce my highest average sale and closing ratio.
        Yes, that was directed at OP. I forgot the quote thingy.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

          This is the problem with most people that sell SEO. You automatically assume that every other provider is a know nothing hack. You assume that they can't be competent because I did not achieve an ROI.
          Most people, including providers on WF, do not know how to properly perform SEO. Most companies, are not truly up to date on best practices. Out of everyone offering SEO, I would bet only 1% or even less have the ability to truly perform time after time.
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          • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Most people, including providers on WF, do not know how to properly perform SEO. Most companies, are not truly up to date on best practices. Out of everyone offering SEO, I would bet only 1% or even less have the ability to truly perform time after time.
            If less than 1% of the SEO selling population can do SEO properly then it's a fools bet to continue to risk the money. Most seem to pitch the idea of reverse engineering the sites in the top few positions. As of yet, that hasn't worked out. Again, my latest provider has made some real improvements across the board in keyword rankings. The issue is that it's still not getting in to the money positions and bringing additional traffic. These same keywords bring the traffic, leads and conversions through PPC. That's why I push PPC and will continue to be weary of SEO.

            In the end, my point is that SEO providers can be great at their jobs and still not be able to overtake the competition to obtain an ROI.
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

              If less than 1% of the SEO selling population can do SEO properly then it's a fools bet to continue to risk the money. Most seem to pitch the idea of reverse engineering the sites in the top few positions. As of yet, that hasn't worked out.
              Well you are right, especially if that is how they pitch it. I look at it differently though, due to most of the SEO selling population being incapable of performing, it opens up a lot of opportunity for the 1% that actually can consistently deliver awesome results.
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              • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                Well you are right, especially if that is how they pitch it. I look at it differently though, due to most of the SEO selling population being incapable of performing, it opens up a lot of opportunity for the 1% that actually can consistently deliver awesome results.

                I disagree. It's difficult to know the difference between the good and the bad. Most business owners are bombarded with ad people on a weekly basis. I get a hundred spam emails a week for SEO services. If enough get screwed there will be more and more people weary of SEO. A lack of trust makes it difficult to get a retainer for services. If you can't get the fee then they will never know what your results will entail.

                In defense of my current SEO, he told me that my competition was doing a pretty good job. Again, my point is that just because you are competent doesn't mean that you can ensure an ROI.
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          • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Out of everyone offering SEO, I would bet only 1% or even less have the ability to truly perform time after time.
            100/1 are terrible odds for a business owner; and that is just getting the right person/company.

            As business is calculated risk not gambling, any pointers on how one would determine who is likely to be in the 1% bracket?

            Thanks

            Dan
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

              100/1 are terrible odds for a business owner; and that is just getting the right person/company.

              As business is calculated risk not gambling, any pointers on how one would determine who is likely to be in the 1% bracket?

              Thanks

              Dan
              An awesome question to ask, which brings up the point earlier that business owners need to know a bit about SEO to be able to hire properly. Same thing when people talk about hiring telemarketers because they don't do it well themselves, you have to know a bit about what you're hiring for in order to hire the right people.

              With SEO... the odds are stacked against you as a business owner, and even as someone offering SEO, the odds are stacked against you because almost every guide out there you can learn from is filled with inaccuracies and crap content that is pushed around the SEO community without any real testing.

              Neil Patel has an ad on FB that I see daily, saying most SEOs have it wrong, they focus on rankings instead of revenue. To break it down even more, you have to get traffic to get revenue when it comes to online.

              First, you need to ask yourself what you want to get out of SEO. Is it traffic? What kind of traffic do you want? Do you want people that research and continue to come back? Do you want the type of traffic that has a sense of urgency? This is all important when it comes to deciding on how you should approach SEO.

              I've looked on oDesk and have been unable to find anyone offering SEO, capable of performing.

              What you should look for in an SEO company or freelancer, is where they place their importance. Ask them how they gauge progress in an SEO campaign. Most will say rankings, and if they say rankings then you can automatically eliminate them. When they say they can provide ranking reports, and backlink reports, etc. then eliminate them because the most important thing is not being reported. Why do you want SEO? You want money. You want customers. You want leads. Are backlinks the metric you use? Are rankings the metric you use to estimate your sales pipeline? No... leads are the metric you use, because leads mean money. How can you get leads online? With traffic... it can be PPC, SEO, social media, whatever... traffic is the way you get leads.

              An SEO company that measures success of a campaign by rankings, or backlinks, is an SEO company that is better at selling than providing a solution to a problem their customer has.

              Another way to eliminate a lot of bogus SEO people, is to ask about how they approach backlinking. If they mention the word dofollow... never speak to them again. If they mention profile links, blog comments, etc. then they are clearly out of touch. If they talk about high PR backlinks, then you should probably forget about them.

              A lot of SEO companies, don't even both talking about on page optimization, which in my opinion is the most important thing that needs to be done. Page speed matters, but is rarely talked about. Trendy SEO people, the ones you want to avoid, talk about social signals, tiered backlinking schemes, and things like that. The ones you want to deal with, talk about user experience, on page optimization, and traffic generation.

              An SEO campaign does NOT take months in order to find out if its successful or not. It takes weeks... Why? When doing OFF PAGE, the links the SEO company are building, should be generating traffic to your website. SEO is a very broad thing, and should be approached as a very broad service instead of breaking things down as search engine marketing, ppc, smm, etc. It truly is a high end service that generates traffic before you even have rankings, when done properly.
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            • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
              Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

              100/1 are terrible odds for a business owner; and that is just getting the right person/company.

              As business is calculated risk not gambling, any pointers on how one would determine who is likely to be in the 1% bracket?

              Thanks

              Dan
              First off I totally agree with Iam and Massive. However you are stil lfaced with a huge list of potential SEO companies to survey, so to cut them down first off I would suggest you search on Google for SEO consultant type terms , if the same people are coming up for a number of relevant keyphrases, then its a good bet they know what they're doing for the rankings part, then you can go into what Iam says with a shorter list of companies you know can at least rank for competitive terms.

              When you buy a racehorse, you don't go to see it sitting down taking a nap, you check it out in action , at the gallops or at a selling race, so when looking for an SEO supplier, check them out where they should be performing , of course then it comes down to your real budget .
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              • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

                First off I totally agree with Iam and Massive. However you are stil lfaced with a huge list of potential SEO companies to survey, so to cut them down first off I would suggest you search on Google for SEO consultant type terms , if the same people are coming up for a number of relevant keyphrases, then its a good bet they know what they're doing for the rankings part, then you can go into what Iam says with a shorter list of companies you know can at least rank for competitive terms.

                When you buy a racehorse, you don't go to see it sitting down taking a nap, you check it out in action , at the gallops or at a selling race, so when looking for an SEO supplier, check them out where they should be performing , of course then it comes down to your real budget .
                Iam said that it's not about rankings, it's about traffic. So, why should I look for an SEO consultant based on their rankings?

                Edit: I googled SEO. The page is flooded with PPC ads. lol

                It doesn't look like an actual SEO provider is on the 1st page.
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                • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
                  Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

                  Iam said that it's not about rankings, it's about traffic. So, why should I look for an SEO consultant based on their rankings?

                  Edit: I googled SEO. The page is flooded with PPC ads. lol

                  It doesn't look like an actual SEO provider is on the 1st page.
                  Because you have to start somewhere, and some SEO related terms have highish search numbers and should therefore generate a lot of traffic , so if an SEO specialist can get themselves ranking on page 1 for some relevant phrases that you may assume his competitors should be also trying to rank for bearing in mind most focus on ranking over lead gen/traffic, then its a good place to start with those that have done that, and then do the due diligence stuff, ask them the questions, interview them, what do they truly believe in, are they just about rankings or leads/profits , else who are you going to start with, you say this forums no good, Odesk no good from memory of quick read through.
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                  • Profile picture of the author massiveray
                    Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

                    Because you have to start somewhere, if an SEO specialist can get themselves ranking on page 1 for a big phrase like SEO, then its a good place to start with those that have done that, and then do the due diligence stuff, ask them the questions, interview them, what do they truly believe in, are they just about rankings or leads/profits , else who are you going to start with, you say this forums no good, Odesk no good from memory of quick read through.
                    Also somebody who types SEO into Google probably isn't looking for an SEO provider, they're looking for information on what SEO is.

                    Type in SEO consultant and see how many of those guys would sell you SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    i 100% agree with o.p

    from now on..i will not even think of G. You can not be at the mercy of big company that has all the power and changes their rules on a whim.

    **** you G...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    ^^seo isn't even that great a marketing platform.Sure for certain B2C businesses it's ok..but there is much better. High end sales/ B2B it's petty poor i.m.h.o.

    Also, i vow never to put my effort into another business that holds all the power, changes their T.O.S. almost monthly and treats customers like dog turd. Life's too short.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Whenever I've read good ebooks and WSO's etc. about SEO, almost all of them talk about DOMINATING the first page of Google for your main keywords and long-tail buyer keywords.
    LOL.....ok must be true then? lol
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  • Profile picture of the author bestrevenueshare
    Sorry but everything looking wrong with original post, wrong section then contradictory post.

    If op got the proper position for desired keyword, then how how SEO is a pain for him because he is successful in term of offpage SEO. The problem is different I.e not expected leads. So there may be two cases
    1) he is not getting SEO traffic though he did mention the term "competitive" 2) he is not getting expected converions

    @op you need to clear these things including your keywords and sites maybe?
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    • Profile picture of the author skynandi
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Most people, including providers on WF, do not know how to properly perform SEO. Most companies, are not truly up to date on best practices. Out of everyone offering SEO, I would bet only 1% or even less have the ability to truly perform time after time.
      ..and that is why is so frustrating for business owners like me. I know there are plenty of great SEO professionals out there, just haven't found it yet.

      Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

      I disagree. It's difficult to know the difference between the good and the bad. Most business owners are bombarded with ad people on a weekly basis. I get a hundred spam emails a week for SEO services. If enough get screwed there will be more and more people weary of SEO. A lack of trust makes it difficult to get a retainer for services. If you can't get the fee then they will never know what your results will entail.
      same here, offers are filling up my inbox, but again very hard to filter out the good from the bad.

      Originally Posted by bestrevenueshare View Post

      Sorry but everything looking wrong with original post, wrong section then contradictory post.

      If op got the proper position for desired keyword, then how how SEO is a pain for him because he is successful in term of offpage SEO. The problem is different I.e not expected leads. So there may be two cases
      1) he is not getting SEO traffic though he did mention the term "competitive" 2) he is not getting expected converions

      @op you need to clear these things including your keywords and sites maybe?
      I'm sure I have all kind of problems, as far as conversion, content, social engagement, backlinks etc, but you should see the amount of crap service I've received in the last year or so, articles that I had to delete before I could read the whole thing. Backlinks that I had to later removed, OnPage Seo service that broke my site and messed up my design, I could go on...
      This is my personal experience and I'm not bashing SEO, just saying how frustrating it is sometimes, and first page is not always the finish line.

      and thanks for all the great comments.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    seo, blogs, videos, it is so far from what really makes money
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    or give up and concentrate on making money...?

    you need to clear these things including your keywords and sites maybe?
    the "good ones" probably aren't illegally spamming to beg for business.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    same here, offers are filling up my inbox, but again very hard to filter out the good from the bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    So what's the point in buying an ad service you have no control over? it can change on a whim, etc? Seems very "all this risk is on the buyer" kind of service.

    No results = excuse ready
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    I used to feel exactly like the OP regarding SEO. When I first got started selling services years ago, I was one of the guys they are describing. After just a few clients didn't get results, my integrity was on the line and I never sold SEO again. I had sold the service and then outsourced it. Big mistake. Wasted money. Burnt my credibility with those clients. Never again.

    However, recently I began a JV with someone who has a clear grasp of gaining attention online. He has been doing it for a few years now. It has nothing to do with backlinks or any of the other things most people think of as SEO.

    iAmNameLess is right - people who speak in those terms should be avoided.

    Is there clearly a lot to be gained form SEO? There certainly is. If PPC is working, proper SEO would work also if done correctly.

    That being said, I can understand why most would avoid it. PPC is like turning on a money-faucet once you get it dialed in. As soon as you know it is working properly, you simply open the gates and take all the clicks the provider can send you.

    With Google, Bing, Yahoo, and Facebook PPC - it is likely PPC source could provide more business than the average brick and mortar could handle. Most companies aren't selling something that has an unlimited supply. Most are selling things that require time and people to fulfill.

    Why would they go to SEO when they KNOW, mathematically, they can spend $10k/month on PPC and get back $100/k month in sales?

    SEO CAN work. But it has to be done correctly. It also goes hand in hand with other types of promotion. If the goal is to ONLY use PPC because they can't afford other types of marketing, there is a high chance of disappointment.
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  • Profile picture of the author massiveray
    In most cases rankings do lead to traffic, I think his point was that before you have ranking improvements you should be able to see the effects of what your SEO is doing almost immediately by your traffic increases.

    In my case the keywords attaining to SEO consultant work get me leads every day. The ranking generates traffic and enquiries, in some cases that is enough.

    But I wouldn't use that as a gauge on how good somebody is, the guy in 2nd behind me is simply buying links, so his work is obviously shoddy. In all honestly the only way to know you're hiring quality is by how they talk, what are they telling you they will do? And can they show you examples of doing it in the past? Do they tell you how they increased revenue? By how much?

    I also disagree with the terminology comments, I say PR all the time despite the fact that I don't find it an accurate measure of a pages authority, I use it because my clients know what it is. If I run around talking about page authority they don't know what I mean, if I say PR they know I mean authority.

    Until they are educated, I talk in terms they can understand.
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    • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
      Originally Posted by massiveray View Post

      In most cases rankings do lead to traffic, I think his point was that before you have ranking improvements you should be able to see the effects of what your SEO is doing almost immediately by your traffic increases.

      In my case the keywords attaining to SEO consultant work get me leads every day. The ranking generates traffic and enquiries, in some cases that is enough.
      If rankings lead to traffic (as we all know) then it makes no sense to disqualify a candidate for focusing on rankings.
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      • Profile picture of the author massiveray
        Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

        If rankings lead to traffic (as we all know) then it makes no sense to disqualify a candidate for focusing on rankings.
        Read the rest I accidentally published it before I was finished, I'm on my ipad :/
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        • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
          Originally Posted by massiveray View Post

          Read the rest I accidentally published it before I was finished, I'm on my ipad :/
          So, when my traffic doesn't increase, yet an SEO provider shows an increase in rankings I should not be impressed with the work? It was my understanding that I was investing for an eventual ranking near the top of page one for my search terms.

          I always thought that I would recoup my investment once the key phrases hit the upper fold of the 1st page. The carrot has dangled there, I just don't get close enough to get a taste.
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          • Profile picture of the author massiveray
            Obviously this is a waste of time, did I say any of that? Or are you just childishly taking my statements to ridiculous extremes?

            What I said was, that while your rankings are improving, you should be able to see an increase in traffic from the activities your SEO is doing. At no point did I say that you should be happy even if your rankings don't improve.

            Now stop being silly!

            Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

            So, when my traffic doesn't increase, yet an SEO provider shows an increase in rankings I should not be impressed with the work? It was my understanding that I was investing for an eventual ranking near the top of page one for my search terms.

            I always thought that I would recoup my investment once the key phrases hit the upper fold of the 1st page. The carrot has dangled there, I just don't get close enough to get a taste.
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

            So, when my traffic doesn't increase, yet an SEO provider shows an increase in rankings I should not be impressed with the work? It was my understanding that I was investing for an eventual ranking near the top of page one for my search terms.

            I always thought that I would recoup my investment once the key phrases hit the upper fold of the 1st page. The carrot has dangled there, I just don't get close enough to get a taste.
            See that's the problem. That is why SEO guys are always let off the hook because they show an increase in rankings but no increase in traffic. Of course, higher rankings are usually a result of the SEO work being done, but truly effective SEO should be bringing in traffic before you even notice an increase in rankings. The average time it takes for a customer to figure out their SEO guy isn't going to provide a positive ROI is 4 months. That is a lot of money being lost they aren't going to get back, but also a lot of time gone by without the traffic and results you need and you're back to square one while they easily have a new customer sign up to replace you.

            Once you switch your thinking from rankings, to traffic, you see things more clearly and you can weed out a lot of bad SEO companies/individuals. I'm not saying these people are evil and out to rip you off, most of them genuinely believe they can provide results, but many are not a good investment.

            You want SEO to bring in more traffic. It is an additional traffic source, right? So yes, one of the metrics you can use is rankings but that isn't a metric that can determine success. Traffic, determines success since that is the reason you would invest in SEO in the first place.
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    • Profile picture of the author kemdev
      Originally Posted by massiveray View Post

      In most cases rankings do lead to traffic, I think his point was that before you have ranking improvements you should be able to see the effects of what your SEO is doing almost immediately by your traffic increases.

      In my case the keywords attaining to SEO consultant work get me leads every day. The ranking generates traffic and enquiries, in some cases that is enough.

      But I wouldn't use that as a gauge on how good somebody is, the guy in 2nd behind me is simply buying links, so his work is obviously shoddy. In all honestly the only way to know you're hiring quality is by how they talk, what are they telling you they will do? And can they show you examples of doing it in the past? Do they tell you how they increased revenue? By how much?

      I also disagree with the terminology comments, I say PR all the time despite the fact that I don't find it an accurate measure of a pages authority, I use it because my clients know what it is. If I run around talking about page authority they don't know what I mean, if I say PR they know I mean authority.

      Until they are educated, I talk in terms they can understand.
      Typically a small business isn't going to search for an SEO provider. I'm talking about contractors, used car dealers, etc... These people generally have an idea of what SEO is (at least the more successful ones), but have no idea as to specifics of what is good and what is not. I feel as though you're talking about SEO for content-based businesses, not your typical contractor.

      One of my most recent clients is a contractor. I took him from a bottom page one listing to the number one spot... and his traffic more than doubled. This was for a service + location keyword that actually had search volume.

      I did this doing a number of things, but mostly by buying links. Good links, less than five of them. Their rankings shot up within the month and have been steadily there for some time. Subsequently, they're getting a lot more service calls.

      How can you say rankings don't matter? Especially for local keywords.
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      • Profile picture of the author massiveray
        There's no problem buying links in the quantity that you're talking, it would be naive to think that any decent results can be achieved without paying for links in some way or another, I was simply saying that the guy who is currently in 2nd has a shitty link profile.

        He went from no links to hundreds in a couple of weeks. All of which I suspect are bought. No other types of links, just bought sidebar links, he will get penalised for this.

        And erm.... I have never said that rankings don't matter, where you reading that from?

        Originally Posted by kemdev View Post


        I did this doing a number of things, but mostly by buying links. Good links, less than five of them. Their rankings shot up within the month and have been steadily there for some time. Subsequently, they're getting a lot more service calls.

        How can you say rankings don't matter? Especially for local keywords.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Traffic alone does not determine success.
    Targeted and relevant traffic, and the ability to convert and improve conversions, and conversions that translate to income in the end is what ultimately is the success.

    SEO can be a means to the end of a desired result for sure but...

    Nameless, I think you are using the term SEO in to broad of a sense. Traffic from other sources which exclude referral traffic from search engines isn't SEO at all.

    I think it can be generally agreed upon that SEO means exactly that, search engine optimization in order to rank better and "get" referral traffic to visit X site due to good SEO.

    From my perspective I think you are taking more about Branding which isn't just done via SEO, hence why traffic may come from many referral sources.

    Just my 2 cents for what's it worth, 2 cents! lol
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      I'll use myself as an example, because it seems to me it clarifies things for a lot of people.

      First site I ever built, I ranked the home page for a 2,900/month exact match term. Having read that #1 gets 30-34% of the traffic, I expected to get some 1,000 unique visitors to my site (at least - I was #2 for a 890 exact match keyword, #3-5 for a bunch of 200-500 keywords).

      Well, I got a whopping 77-87 uniques.

      I abandoned the site, built another one. My top 2 keywords were 2,900 and 6,600 exact match. I got to be #1 for the 2,900 and #6 for the 6,600 quite fast. This time, I seemed to have learned something about something as I got 1,300 to 1,400 uniques a month (around 950 via the 2,900 keyword.)
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Traffic alone does not determine success.
      Targeted and relevant traffic, and the ability to convert and improve conversions, and conversions that translate to income in the end is what ultimately is the success.

      SEO can be a means to the end of a desired result for sure but...

      Nameless, I think you are using the term SEO in to broad of a sense. Traffic from other sources which exclude referral traffic from search engines isn't SEO at all.

      I think it can be generally agreed upon that SEO means exactly that, search engine optimization in order to rank better and "get" referral traffic to visit X site due to good SEO.

      From my perspective I think you are taking more about Branding which isn't just done via SEO, hence why traffic may come from many referral sources.

      Just my 2 cents for what's it worth, 2 cents! lol
      You make good points, but I don't believe I'm talking about SEO in too broad of a sense. Links you build for SEO should be to increase exposure of the website and generate traffic from where you build the links, that way you gain favor with the search engines but you're generating traffic as well from your SEO efforts in a way that you aren't just relying on rank increases in the search engines.

      The way Google advises SEO companies and providers is in a way exactly that I'm describing.

      Also, proper SEO is something that helps you in branding.

      I don't really expect you to agree with me, or anyone else for that matter. I know my views on SEO are a little unconventional and a lot of people disagree which is perfectly fine.

      I don't believe SEO is as simple as building links, I believe it is a very broad service, that includes a lot of things that most people are afraid to even get involved with. I believe ORM should also be included with an SEO campaign.

      Regardless of how you view it, one can not deny the benefits related to it.
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      • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        You make good points, but I don't believe I'm talking about SEO in too broad of a sense. Links you build for SEO should be to increase exposure of the website and generate traffic from where you build the links, that way you gain favor with the search engines but you're generating traffic as well from your SEO efforts in a way that you aren't just relying on rank increases in the search engines.

        The way Google advises SEO companies and providers is in a way exactly that I'm describing.

        Also, proper SEO is something that helps you in branding.

        I don't really expect you to agree with me, or anyone else for that matter. I know my views on SEO are a little unconventional and a lot of people disagree which is perfectly fine.

        I don't believe SEO is as simple as building links, I believe it is a very broad service, that includes a lot of things that most people are afraid to even get involved with. I believe ORM should also be included with an SEO campaign.

        Regardless of how you view it, one can not deny the benefits related to it.
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      • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        You make good points, but I don't believe I'm talking about SEO in too broad of a sense. Links you build for SEO should be to increase exposure of the website and generate traffic from where you build the links, that way you gain favor with the search engines but you're generating traffic as well from your SEO efforts in a way that you aren't just relying on rank increases in the search engines.

        The way Google advises SEO companies and providers is in a way exactly that I'm describing.

        Also, proper SEO is something that helps you in branding.

        I don't really expect you to agree with me, or anyone else for that matter. I know my views on SEO are a little unconventional and a lot of people disagree which is perfectly fine.

        I don't believe SEO is as simple as building links, I believe it is a very broad service, that includes a lot of things that most people are afraid to even get involved with. I believe ORM should also be included with an SEO campaign.

        Regardless of how you view it, one can not deny the benefits related to it.
        Unless the traffic is targeted it's garbage to me. I own a local brick and mortar business. Unless you can get backlinks that produce interest in my niche, in my local area and in the products that I can profit from it would just be useless traffic with no hope of conversion. Optimizing for select keywords and ranking those search terms is what makes sense when you want targeted traffic.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        @ Nameless

        The way Google advises SEO companies and providers is in a way exactly that I'm describing.
        Correct me if I'm wrong but Google does not advice or condone link building, from what I understand they want you to create content people want to link to.

        If I am wrong, if you can please provide the resource which states that they condone and encourage link building.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          @ Nameless

          Correct me if I'm wrong but Google does not advice or condone link building, from what I understand they want you to create content people want to link to.

          If I am wrong, if you can please provide the resource which states that they condone and encourage link building.
          Google does not advise link building to manipulate PR. Google has stated numerous times they like businesses that brand themselves and market themselves, Matt Cutts has talked about that a lot, especially with the EMD vs. Branded domain debate.

          This is what Google does not like: https://support.google.com/webmaster...er/66356?hl=en

          When your link building is focused on traffic, you can't go wrong. That is why content marketing is a very important part of SEO. When you view SEO more in the light of branding, marketing & publicity, Google has no problem with that. Just like press releases, press release backlinks aren't going to help you but the result of the press release can end up being an article written about your business on a local news site, or industry related news sites.

          My personal belief is that eventually you won't even need back links at all. Word association with the company name and discerning relevant keywords from what is written in an article or blog is going to be more important than the link itself.
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          • Profile picture of the author patadeperro
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Google does not advise link building to manipulate PR. Google has stated numerous times they like businesses that brand themselves and market themselves, Matt Cutts has talked about that a lot, especially with the EMD vs. Branded domain debate.

            This is what Google does not like: https://support.google.com/webmaster...er/66356?hl=en

            When your link building is focused on traffic, you can't go wrong. That is why content marketing is a very important part of SEO. When you view SEO more in the light of branding, marketing & publicity, Google has no problem with that. Just like press releases, press release backlinks aren't going to help you but the result of the press release can end up being an article written about your business on a local news site, or industry related news sites.

            My personal belief is that eventually you won't even need back links at all. Word association with the company name and discerning relevant keywords from what is written in an article or blog is going to be more important than the link itself.
            This is not true

            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            When your link building is focused on traffic, you can't go wrong. That is why content marketing is a very important part of SEO.
            You started with some good advice (content marketing) but after you get all confused, content marketing is not the same as SEO, you can have a lot of traffic from your content without ranking on the search engines, those are two different animals, can content marketing help you to rank? absolutelly!! but if you get the proper type of backlinks, but here the KEY is "proper backlinks"

            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            When you view SEO more in the light of branding, marketing & publicity, Google has no problem with that. Just like press releases, press release backlinks aren't going to help you but the result of the press release can end up being an article written about your business on a local news site, or industry related news sites.
            Not true either, of course a press release can help you to rank IF they are used in the proper way, the problem is MOST of people use it in the wrong spammy way, but press releses can be syndicated by very authoritative sites and the backlinks from those sites (that were embedded in your original press release) can help you to rank.

            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            My personal belief is that eventually you won't even need back links at all. Word association with the company name and discerning relevant keywords from what is written in an article or blog is going to be more important than the link itself.
            Please write with Capital letters PERSONAL BELIEF and write the phrase "Wrong" before the capitalisation, what you are describing here is the base of the "relevancy" part of Google Algorythm, BUT what gives the ranks and authority are the backlinks; I know what search engine you use , but Google algorythm is based on backlinks.
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by patadeperro View Post

              This is not true



              You started with some good advice (content marketing) but after you get all confused, content marketing is not the same as SEO, you can have a lot of traffic from your content without ranking on the search engines, those are two different animals, can content marketing help you to rank? absolutelly!! but if you get the proper type of backlinks, but here the KEY is "proper backlinks"



              Not true either, of course a press release can help you to rank IF they are used in the proper way, the problem is MOST of people use it in the wrong spammy way, but press releses can be syndicated by very authoritative sites and the backlinks from those sites (that were embedded in your original press release) can help you to rank.



              Please write with Capital letters PERSONAL BELIEF and write the phrase "Wrong" before the capitalisation, what you are describing here is the base of the "relevancy" part of Google Algorythm, BUT what gives the ranks and authority are the backlinks; I know what search engine you use , but Google algorythm is based on backlinks.
              Press releases have completely been devalued as a form of backlinks.
              https://productforums.google.com/for...nZw/discussion
              Further explained by SEroundtable interview: "Now, when you do press releases, it might get your web site in front of the eyes of bloggers, reporters and others, where what they write or link to may have an impact on your rankings. But the links within the releases themselves, Google says - they won't benefit your rankings."

              Now with saying I was wrong about content marketing being a part of SEO... please explain. I don't see how you can disagree with that. Content marketing is part of SEO, it always has been. Content marketing just became a new buzz word, thats all. When you market your content, you're promoting good SEO strategies. This is not up for debate. Search engine watch wrote a perfect article about this which can be found: The Myth of Content Marketing, the New SEO & Penguin 2.0 - Search Engine Watch (#SEW)

              Of course I said personal belief... but my personal belief is aligned with what is happening in search. The way both Google and Bing are becoming more about semantic search, case in point, hummingbird.

              The way that Google's knowledge graph works, supports the line of thinking within semantic search that pages can rank for keywords they are not optimized for just based on what would be a contextual backlink without a link, using word association with certain entities.

              Why do you think that leaders in the SEO community are changing the way they approach even the term of SEO? From search experience optimization to search entitity optimization, and etc.

              SEO no matter how you view it, has most certainly progressed to become much more than just backlinks. Research co-citations and co-occurence in SEO..
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              • Profile picture of the author patadeperro
                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                Press releases have completely been devalued as a form of backlinks.
                https://productforums.google.com/for...nZw/discussion
                Further explained by SEroundtable interview: "Now, when you do press releases, it might get your web site in front of the eyes of bloggers, reporters and others, where what they write or link to may have an impact on your rankings. But the links within the releases themselves, Google says - they won't benefit your rankings."

                You need to understand that Google is not going to tell you how to cheat them, but if you make some test you will see how backlinks are still the key component to rank, in this example people use the press release to create crappy content thinking than the number of backlinks from the press release itself will help them to rank and here the problem is that crappy content will never reach authority websites, nevertheless when you create a press release and that press release is caught by a media company (such as a newspaper or a TV show) that backlink within the press release you created can help you to rank (many media centers dont change the press release a lot if it is a good one), the backlinks here are comming from an authority site (a newspaper) with high PR (most of the times)... as you can see the press release backlinks can help you to rank IF you create a good press releasse, the real goal of a press release is to be caught for this big media organization, most people make a press release with the anchor text :"SEO Company NY", what you need to focus is in a good story, good content and the anchor text is secondary, what you dont want media outlets to think is that you just want the free exposure (even you do), you want them to think you are creating a good story for them so you can be published.

                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                Now with saying I was wrong about content marketing being a part of SEO... please explain. I don't see how you can disagree with that. Content marketing is part of SEO, it always has been. Content marketing just became a new buzz word, thats all. When you market your content, you're promoting good SEO strategies. This is not up for debate. Search engine watch wrote a perfect article about this which can be found: The Myth of Content Marketing, the New SEO & Penguin 2.0 - Search Engine Watch (#SEW)
                No, this is incorrect, content marketing is as its name express it, marketing your content (read Alexa comments for more information about this), you can get the same piece or article and send it to several bloggers, or media outlets, there you are marketing your content, it is the same piece, that can bring you traffic, but just that by itself wont help you to rank higher, there is the confussion, one thing is to market your content to get traffis, and another really different is to get backlinks to the content you are hosting in order to get higher ranks, and then get search engine traffic.

                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                Of course I said personal belief... but my personal belief is aligned with what is happening in search. The way both Google and Bing are becoming more about semantic search, case in point, hummingbird.

                The way that Google's knowledge graph works, supports the line of thinking within semantic search that pages can rank for keywords they are not optimized for just based on what would be a contextual backlink without a link, using word association with certain entities.
                Hummingbird was an algorythm change more focus in natural language: source Google Hummingbird: Where No Search Has Gone Before | Innovation Insights | Wired.com but that does not mean than backlinks are not the strongest signals to rank, they may be not as strong as before, but they are still the definitive factor to rank higher than others.

                Now that PR is going to stop being public see some other metrics such as trust flow from MAjestic SEO, they are still somehow related to backlinks.

                I can tell I have done several tests and yes, there are other factors that affect the rankings, but nothing like high PR backlinks with related content
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  • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
    I totally feel your pain. The important thing is to get targeted traffic. Since you know how to do SEO, you'll be fine. The same research still applies. Combine your SEO knowledge with Google trends to see what people are actually typing in.

    I would highly recommend putting a lot of niches. This can be geographically-based niches or industry-based niches. Nowadays, there are so many "experts" over the internet that people are excited to find one that's nearby. They'll give you a call and hopefully you can see the deal that way.

    Nonetheless, you shouldn't give up on SEO. It's brought in so much traffic and business for me at zero cost that I would advise against dropping it.

    There's also another point to make that it seems your company is still new. Once you've developed an established clientele, your word-of-mouth business will grow. And those word-of-mouth prospects will look you up and be delighted that you're actually over the search engine results. It makes you look very credible and puts you in a good light before they contact you.
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    • Profile picture of the author asiapre
      seo, blogs, videos, it is so far from what really makes money
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        These last 70 some post have been the best reading I have had in a while. It is an age old discussion - PPC vs SEO. They both give the same result, one is instant the other takes time. The SEO route for many fails at the whim of an algorithm change. And the PPC route in some cases can be gosh darn expensive.

        I started my SEO journey way back in the day,1997 was a wonderful time on the net. Your SEO changes would propagate themselves in a few weeks and everything was easy as pie. Move forward to 2000 and boy it got rough. Add on top of that I was working in the Las Vegas Hotel industry boom, and I got a lot of grey hairs early in life haha.

        What I have learned in my 16 years of SEO is that there are 2 types. #1 There is short term meet the algorithm changes. Then there is #2 the SEO that is solid and lasts through the changes. Search engines change up the algorithms to get rid of the garbage listings that build up and are looking for the "more" relevant sites. If your SEO sets you into the "More" relevant category, you kinda remain steady.

        The whole thing boils down to one big huge mathematical equation, There are umpteen variables that are considered. And with each change a search engine makes, the weight of these variable change. Its not that the variables change, just how much weight is set to them. Once you understand what the variable are... you can start stabilizing you SEO. Its a big huge balancing act of sorts.

        I personally am a FIRM believer in SEO. However, I do understand the PPC faucet. Neither is wrong, neither is right. I personally would think that those on the PPC faucet would want off. I mean really, if you are on the faucet, then you have much more freedom with what happens with your site ranking. Id play with it for sure!

        Just my 2cents worth
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        Success is an ACT not an idea
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Kua
    Top three polarizing topics in the world:

    1. Religion
    2. Politics
    3. SEO
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Originally Posted by skynandi View Post

    Hi,

    I have a small IT Consulting Business, I've managed to rank my site on first page and even first position with a couple of competitive local keywords.

    I've worked very hard on content creation, SEO, SMM... etc. the whole nine yard. I'm getting really tired and annoyed by the ROI. I've enjoyed the process of learning about online marketing, but now I want to see results. I need leads not first page

    Its very very difficult to find good reliable content creators, even harder to find good honest SEO technicians. I've tried everything from cheap ODESK freelancers to expensive SEO companies. Is there anybody out there who can do decent SEO and lead generation for a reasonable price?

    or if not SEO what else should I do to generate more leads?

    Thanks, and I take my answer off the air
    Please visit here for more insights:
    Discover Which Marketing Programs Really Work

    You want traffic that converts (not an affiliate link):
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...autopilot.html

    Because IT Consulting is more technical in nature,
    have you done white papers and article syndication and guest blogging
    or good ole print news paper articles and old fashioned publicity?
    Again, no affiliate links at all:
    Free Tools
    B2B Marketing Strategies for High-Tech Sales People
    Perry Marshall's Google AdWords Advertising & Pay Per Click Program
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Originally Posted by skynandi View Post

    Hi,

    I have a small IT Consulting Business, I've managed to rank my site on first page and even first position with a couple of competitive local keywords.

    I've worked very hard on content creation, SEO, SMM... etc. the whole nine yard. I'm getting really tired and annoyed by the ROI. I've enjoyed the process of learning about online marketing, but now I want to see results. I need leads not first page

    Its very very difficult to find good reliable content creators, even harder to find good honest SEO technicians. I've tried everything from cheap ODESK freelancers to expensive SEO companies. Is there anybody out there who can do decent SEO and lead generation for a reasonable price?

    or if not SEO what else should I do to generate more leads?

    Thanks, and I take my answer off the air
    Please visit here for more insights:
    Discover Which Marketing Programs Really Work

    You want traffic that converts (not an affiliate link):
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...autopilot.html

    Because IT Consulting is more technical in nature,
    have you done white papers and article syndication and guest blogging
    or good ole print news paper articles and old fashioned publicity?
    Again, no affiliate links at all:
    Free Tools
    B2B Marketing Strategies for High-Tech Sales People
    Perry Marshall's Google AdWords Advertising & Pay Per Click Program
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Originally Posted by skynandi View Post

    Hi,

    I have a small IT Consulting Business, I've managed to rank my site on first page and even first position with a couple of competitive local keywords.

    I've worked very hard on content creation, SEO, SMM... etc. the whole nine yard. I'm getting really tired and annoyed by the ROI. I've enjoyed the process of learning about online marketing, but now I want to see results. I need leads not first page

    Its very very difficult to find good reliable content creators, even harder to find good honest SEO technicians. I've tried everything from cheap ODESK freelancers to expensive SEO companies. Is there anybody out there who can do decent SEO and lead generation for a reasonable price?

    or if not SEO what else should I do to generate more leads?

    Thanks, and I take my answer off the air
    Please visit here for more insights:
    Discover Which Marketing Programs Really Work

    You want traffic that converts (not an affiliate link):
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...autopilot.html

    Because IT Consulting is more technical in nature,
    have you done white papers and article syndication and guest blogging
    or good ole print news paper articles and old fashioned publicity?
    Again, no affiliate links at all:
    Free Tools
    B2B Marketing Strategies for High-Tech Sales People
    Perry Marshall's Google AdWords Advertising & Pay Per Click Program

    Dan
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Originally Posted by skynandi View Post

    Hi,

    I have a small IT Consulting Business, I've managed to rank my site on first page and even first position with a couple of competitive local keywords.

    I've worked very hard on content creation, SEO, SMM... etc. the whole nine yard. I'm getting really tired and annoyed by the ROI. I've enjoyed the process of learning about online marketing, but now I want to see results. I need leads not first page

    Its very very difficult to find good reliable content creators, even harder to find good honest SEO technicians. I've tried everything from cheap ODESK freelancers to expensive SEO companies. Is there anybody out there who can do decent SEO and lead generation for a reasonable price?

    or if not SEO what else should I do to generate more leads?

    Thanks, and I take my answer off the air
    Please visit here for more insights:
    Discover Which Marketing Programs Really Work

    You want traffic that converts (not an affiliate link):
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...autopilot.html

    Because IT Consulting is more technical in nature,
    have you done white papers and article syndication and guest blogging
    or good ole print news paper articles and old fashioned publicity?
    Again, no affiliate links at all:
    Free Tools
    B2B Marketing Strategies for High-Tech Sales People
    Perry Marshall's Google AdWords Advertising & Pay Per Click Program

    Dan
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author focusedlife
    I hate SEO, but I love marketing.

    The quote I've heard that i love best says: "Its easier to find 100 ways to get 1 customer than it is to find 1 way to get 100."

    Diversity is almost never a bad thing, especially when it comes to income streams.

    Regards

    Los
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    The only group with more actionable info than any WSO → The Parlay Society
    Want me to write stuff for you? → Click here to check this out
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    An operational definition of SEO seems to be needed.
    There's what gets told to clients/prospects in their language.
    Then there's what SEO providers do as "SEO".
    To me it should be abut relevant traffic and ROI. Lasting.
    Needs vary by business.

    Maybe it should just be called Search Optimization?.
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Okay... Then you disagree with not only me, but Matt Cutts, algorithm changes, several thought leaders who actually do SEO, Neil Patel, Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, and more.

    The fact that you have to refer to Alexa's comments regarding content marketing, says enough.. lol. To say content marketing has nothing to do with SEO is pure ignorance. We don't have to agree though, and it obviously isn't going to be a wise use of my time or your time going back and forth about it.
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    • Profile picture of the author patadeperro
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Okay... Then you disagree with not only me, but Matt Cutts, algorithm changes, several thought leaders who actually do SEO, Neil Patel, Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, and more.

      The fact that you have to refer to Alexa's comments regarding content marketing, says enough.. lol. To say content marketing has nothing to do with SEO is pure ignorance. We don't have to agree though, and it obviously isn't going to be a wise use of my time or your time going back and forth about it.
      I am not trying to convince you, I am just trying to give a real analysis on the reality of search engines, as I told you I really play in very competitive niches and I make my own tests and I get my own conclusions unless you or some of the SEO people you are talking about can show me the opposite I cant avoid reality.

      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Then you disagree with not only me, but Matt Cutts, algorithm changes, several thought leaders who actually do SEO, Neil Patel, Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, and more
      What happends when you take the word of these people for granted it is called in logic the "authority fallacy", not because they say it, it means it is a universal truth, you need to see it and test it yourself, and so far I have done so and their comments don't match the results I see

      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      The fact that you have to refer to Alexa's comments regarding content marketing, says enough.. lol. To say content marketing has nothing to do with SEO is pure ignorance.
      I am referring to her to explain what content marketing can be about without an SEO effect, you will see, this comment says a lot about you, just because somebody that you personally don't like says something of value it does not mean you should entirely avoid that fact, there are a lot of people which I personally dont agree on their views or some of their comments but when I see their results or good information why would I neglect it?

      I came to comment here because you are giving false information, trying to build an authority based on the repetition of information that you clearly don't understand, you are interpreting their comments wrong and you are trying to go around pushing people and making fun of their points of view, I showed you in another thread how you cant go around thinking you are in a "competitive" market or repeating information without proof, I though you have understood, you should stop trying to make those remarks and being more humble, because as I proved to you, there are some of us who have SEO teams, private networks, content producers, are pushing big traffic in big niches and are doing real live experiments.

      Respectfully patadeperro
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Neil Patel, Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, they all LOVE the sound of their own voices and I read everything they write with a skepticism first.
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    • Profile picture of the author patadeperro
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Neil Patel, Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, they all LOVE the sound of their own voices and I read everything they write with a skepticism first.
      As everybody else should do, you need to listen to what they say, make your own test and if your conclusions are the same than theirs great, but if they are not then you should not follow their advice and share your experience with others, but if you do that and someone like Iamnameless comes here just making fun of other people opinion, that is no useful at all.

      That is why I came to post here, because it seems like everybody is just getting in the circlejerk without any proof.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Actually the more I read from the self proclaimed SEO sites the more I am seeing through the veil. Most of the blogs posts from these sites authors is nothing more then conjecture in my opinion and it's all a bunch of hogwash. These sites, and you know who they are have turned into nothing but ways for guest authors/posters to self promote their services which makes anything they post suspect.

        As for people on these forums who do SEO and especially those who release the we dominate the first page of Google with 8 out of 10 results it goes something like this.

        We dominate the whole first page of Google using this awesome method, check this out.

        Then you see that they've ranked for some obscure keyword phrase then when searched using exact match it turns out there are only a few thousand competing pages IF THAT!

        It looks pretty awesome and prey's upon the lack of understanding/knowledge of SEO so the drones eat it up and buy it which perpetuates the whole thing even more.

        Remember that just not long ago Google said Press Releases have no value SEO wise and then some one created a press release targeted towards Matt Cutts and some obscure BS keyword phrase? It ranked of course for the phrase but of course it ranked the press release was actually the ONLY piece of content on the internet with the phrase! Well DUH!

        Then they used this as some sort of evidence that what Google said wasn't true.

        Originally Posted by patadeperro View Post

        As everybody else should do, you need to listen to what they say, make your own test and if your conclusions are the same than theirs great, but if they are not then you should not follow their advice and share your experience with others, but if you do that and someone like Iamnameless comes here just making fun of other people opinion, that is no useful at all.

        That is why I came to post here, because it seems like everybody is just getting in the circlejerk without any proof.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    you put too much importance on "internet traffic"

    I suppose for m.m.o. crap and weight loss B*S* it's fine but real business/ real customers, word of mouth/networking is more important
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Nguyen
    Mr OP wherever you are, I might be qualified to talk here:

    I've done SEO for an IT company, in fact he's my business partner and I have free reign on his website anything digital related. Took me 13 months to get to #1 for the London term. Top rankings is not enough, you need to be doing PPC aswell. Bit of advice here that might help you improve you're marketing campaign.

    Most of our internet leads are price orientated so they're more than likely have gotten other quotes. We haven't done this for various reasons but if you do ever get a lead from the internet for your services, start doing DM to that lead to further improve your position otherwise you're just another commodity.

    Marketing is marketing is marketing and you don't ever want to get into a position where you stop marketing (unless you don't want to grow). Either way, you're paying for SEO or PPC doesn't matter if you're paying Google or an SEO, you have outgoings regardless. Change you're mindset and play the marketing game. I used to think Google is evil with all these SEO changes but its not personal anymore, its business. Google is your friend if you have money and this is where the market is these days. Throw money at PPC and gain your leads, grow your company, once you've established abit, time to top it up with good SEO.

    If I were to do business all over again and had to rely on leads online (assuming you don't have a referral network) I'd spend it on PPC. It's measurable and it's instant. You can always replace money but you can replace....
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  • Profile picture of the author skynandi
    Thank You for all the fantastic advice.

    I've been away from the forum for the last week or two, I was working on a project.
    I also had to ask a very important question from myself which is "Do I have time for new clients?" and the answer was "Not right now" so I stopped going crazy about SEO and PPC and all that happy stuff. I've cleaned up my site, created a media schedule and started posting articles and created a few tutorial videos. I can always step it up a notch with guest posting and some PPC if a really need more business. I've learned a lot from you all, thanks again.
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