Kicked in the teeth for giving feedback, you?

17 replies
My inbox is suffering an epidemic as of late. I have been posting more and more to try and give back to the forum because I get so much from other warriors and felt it only fair to even the scales a bit.

I have even more respect for the warriors that provide feedback that may not be popular as I am sure you must be getting this too. Here is how it goes for me.

I get private message like:

"I respect your post on abc and would value your opinion on xyz that I want to sell"

If I have zero experience on xyz I say that.
If I have valuable insights I share them.

As of late God help me if I disagree with the persons opinion of xyz.
Suddenly I get
"Well people who have never built xyz wouldn't understand. Donald Trump sold 1 billion worth of xyz so what do you know."

Yikes!

Years ago I would of tore the person a new one.
One thing I hate about the internet is not being in the same room as someone that wants to be rude. Nothing I enjoy more than a face to face meeting after several rude emails from someone, funny how they pull in their horns but that's another story.

These days I have a thick skin and simply reply with what I think they need to learn because if we tell the truth we have all been there. I remember being that arrogant ass :-)

My hall of fame being an arrogant ass moment:

I was a young software developer tasked with finding bugs.
My particular contribution was that I sold prepacked end products derived from this software (FilemakerPro)
I disagreed with how the software was packaging the final runtime solution.
A seasoned manager was debating with me if it was truly a bug or just my preferenc.
Frustrated that I could not make HIM get it I said
"well if you had worked as an end developer you would know this is a bug"

He put his glasses down, stood up and looked at me and said
"Peter, do you not think it the height of conceit to presume to know what I have done in my career? When you wish to debate the merits of the product and not the person please come back, my door is always open."

WOW did I learn a lesson that day. He also ended up being a great long term friend and mentor.

Love to hear other experiences and best practices for handling these situations.

What I never want to do is just not bother being helpful because someone may not like my opinion.
#feedback #giving #kicked #teeth
  • Profile picture of the author ronr
    If I ask someone's opinion or advice on something, first of all I'm thankful that they took the time to respond to me. Second if they disagree or have a different opinion than mine, I'll think about their reasons carefully. Maybe they are seeing something I'm not or maybe they are basing their opinion on their experience that I haven't had. If I still disagree that's ok and thank them for taking their time.

    Not quite the same situation but talking with clients or friends who have a corporate mindset about marketing when you bring up things like direct response marketing, ugly ads and lumpy mail they often just don't understand why you want to do something so unprofessional that they are convinced will never work in their business :rolleyes:

    Ron
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
      Originally Posted by ronr View Post

      Not quite the same situation but talking with clients or friends who have a corporate mindset about marketing when you bring up things like direct response marketing, ugly ads and lumpy mail they often just don't understand why you want to do something so unprofessional that they are convinced will never work in their business :rolleyes:

      Ron
      Been there and done that :-)
      Its one of the reasons I so enjoy having clients that are just the correct size for me to handle all the marketing so I can spend less time trying to convince and more time to just make them money. I worked in large corporations, by the time you could get a decent idea approved the moment had passed lol
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      • Profile picture of the author ronr
        It can also happen with smaller companies. I have friend who has built quite a sucessful company. He built it on Dan Kennedy style direct response marketing. I used to propose markeing ideas and work for him on a regular basis and we were always on the same page. One direct mail package I created for him produced millions in sales. When he got to a certain level he realized he needed help to he brought in several managers from the outside. It has helped him with structure but now any ideas need to formally proposed to the managers who think like typical corporate types.

        Originally Posted by plessard View Post

        Been there and done that :-)
        Its one of the reasons I so enjoy having clients that are just the correct size for me to handle all the marketing so I can spend less time trying to convince and more time to just make them money. I worked in large corporations, by the time you could get a decent idea approved the moment had passed lol
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    People love advice as long as it agrees with their fantasy. Any advice or experience that is contrary, is seen as an attack at their future.

    It's human nature. We all put our hopes in things we are doing. If someone is contrary, we feel fear and may react.

    It's hard to know when we should fight for our ideas because maybe we truly are onto something great. Most of the time, most of us are average, and should listen to the advice given by the people who have experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      People love advice as long as it agrees with their fantasy. Any advice or experience that is contrary, is seen as an attack at their future.

      It's human nature. We all put our hopes in things we are doing. If someone is contrary, we feel fear and may react.

      It's hard to know when we should fight for our ideas because maybe we truly are onto something great. Most of the time, most of us are average, and should listen to the advice given by the people who have experience.
      I get PMs asking my opinion all the time. Some I ignore or answer "I'm sorry, but it's outside my area of expertise". A few I'll give a real opinion on, usually with a suggestion or two.

      Recently, I've been begging off, unless the person is already known to me as a serious businessperson.

      I never encourage a known bad idea.

      Recently (outside this forum) I had a guy tell me his fantastic idea. He even asked me to swear I wasn't going to "steal his idea", before he told me.

      It was to collect the names and addresses of companies and sell then to salespeople...for $3.00 each.

      So I asked a few questions to make sure I heard him right. He had never heard of online directories...or mailing lists.

      After I told him that there were already hundreds of companies selling those lists for a dime a name, he got angry. "You're just jealous because you didn't think of it". and he went on about how I wasn't supporting him in his dream.

      He's right, I just wanted to steal his idea. Anyone wanting to buy the names and addresses of companies (That's it, no selects, no income data, just the name and address)...I'll sell them for $3 each. A million names minimum. All I need is one wealthy stupid buyer...OK, very very stupid buyer.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        After I told him that there were already hundreds of companies selling those lists for a dime a name, he got angry. "You're just jealous because you didn't think of it". and he went on about how I wasn't supporting him in his dream.
        Claude...you dream stealer!

        Best,
        Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author focusedlife
    That's the beauty of the internet.

    The problem, in my opinion, is when you're genuinely trying to be helpful, and then someone comes in and wants to kick down your sand castle...and won't let up.

    Granted, there are some real Jack's out there that aren't necessarily helpful at all, but I'm referring to the ones that genuinely want to offer help.

    Anyway...end rant.

    Regards

    Los
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  • It's just the internet. You're going to get some crazy ones. When you are 83-years-old like me, you've seen it all. Should have seen the old Usenet boards. Like the wild west.

    Entire forums, like Michel Fortin's excellent CopywritingBoard have been shut down because the ego wars got out of control and the forum owner said forget it. That's why the WF is so fast to delete threads that get too hot.

    As far as the advice issue, in the Copywriting Forum every day someone says they need help with something. Usually they don't share any real info, just a cryptic cry for help, like they had to put the post in a bottle and and throw it in the ocean. Nothing about what they've tried, what they've tested, the target market, current conversion rate, or how they are getting traffic.

    A few copywriters with several decades of experience tell them why their lousy sales letter, or whatever, is not working and many just argue.

    What can you do? Makes it fun.

    -----------------------------------------

    Patient: Doctor, my hair keeps falling out. What can you give me to keep it in?

    Doctor: A shoebox.
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
    Well at least I am not the only one lol.
    There is a program here in Canada called The Dragons Den.
    Rich successful panel that has ideas pitched to them and they choose to invest or not.
    Real eye opener.
    One minute the subject is looking for an investment.
    Next minute if panel points out logical reasons why it will not work these very succesful business people are being dismissed by the subject and told they just don't get it. They leave the room ranting that it will make millions!

    The biggest lesson I have learned regarding this subject is that there is little correlation between a great idea and it turning into a great business. They are completely separate.
    People spend their entire lives lamenting the fact they just could not get others to understand their great idea.

    Great idea + timing + execution + proper budget + being easily adopted by buyers is a bare minium and hec I probably missed several other points.
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  • Profile picture of the author Khemosabi
    @plessard
    Your post made me smile! I'm a "nobody" around here and I got a PM one day and the person's question was so very vague I really couldn't understand what they were asking of me.
    I did my best to respond. Several PM's later, I finally "got" what they wanted... yep, you guessed it, they wanted me to hand hold them and actually give them everything.

    When I wouldn't, I got lambasted!

    I now where a protective helmet and face guard before I log in! :p

    ~ Theresa
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
      Originally Posted by Khemosabi View Post

      @plessard
      Your post made me smile! I'm a "nobody" around here and I got a PM one day and the person's question was so very vague I really couldn't understand what they were asking of me.
      I did my best to respond. Several PM's later, I finally "got" what they wanted... yep, you guessed it, they wanted me to hand hold them and actually give them everything.

      When I wouldn't, I got lambasted!

      I now where a protective helmet and face guard before I log in! :p

      ~ Theresa
      Hi, Theresa great idea with the helmet and face guard :-)
      Rest assured you are not viewed as a "nobody around here" by myself or other people that appreciate your posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
    I'll fess up here. plessard posted a thread of straight value related to higher ticket sales. I was thoroughly impressed. He's one of very few recently to impress me. Mr. Wheatley is one....

    Anyone here knows me, I'm all about getting the bigger checks. So I messaged him and asked him if my latest "brain fart" would have helped his business. Rather than to get personal - (as there's a greater lesson to be learned), I will just say I was less than thrilled with his response, and shared my concerns.

    This thread is born... Here we are.

    Step back for a minute, completely objectively.

    An unproductive thread (in my opinion) has been born because two guys who "think outside the box" to earn good money for themselves, clashed privately.

    Judging by the view-count - there's a ton of engagement.

    My mind is swirling with scenarios relative to; "how could this same sort of fierce energy been channeled for something productive?"

    I hope at the end of the day though; Warriors get value. I think plessard would agree - that, that's all we want to do. Offer real value.
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    FILL IN THE BLANKS!
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
      Love your passion and wish you the best!
      I don't agree this thread is unproductive - oh now 2 warriors not agreeing ;-)

      There may be warriors that would choose to stop sharing their valuable information based on it not always being received well and that would be a shame.

      Also there may be some ignoring creative criticism as they are too emotionally attached.

      The sharing of experiences allows us to see the bigger picture with less emotion so that we might best benefit from the next situation that arises. I view this thread as productive.


      Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

      I'll fess up here. plessard posted a thread of straight value related to higher ticket sales. I was thoroughly impressed. He's one of very few recently to impress me. Mr. Wheatley is one....

      Anyone here knows me, I'm all about getting the bigger checks. So I messaged him and asked him if my latest "brain fart" would have helped his business. Rather than to get personal - (as there's a greater lesson to be learned), I will just say I was less than thrilled with his response, and shared my concerns.

      This thread is born... Here we are.

      Step back for a minute, completely objectively.

      An unproductive thread (in my opinion) has been born because two guys who "think outside the box" to earn good money for themselves, clashed privately.

      Judging by the view-count - there's a ton of engagement.

      My mind is swirling with scenarios relative to; "how could this same sort of fierce energy been channeled for something productive?"

      I hope at the end of the day though; Warriors get value. I think plessard would agree - that, that's all we want to do. Offer real value.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
        Originally Posted by plessard View Post

        Love your passion and wish you the best!
        I don't agree this thread is unproductive - oh now 2 warriors not agreeing ;-)

        There may be warriors that would choose to stop sharing their valuable information based on it not always being received well and that tabwould be a shame.

        Also there may be some ignoring creative criticism as they are too emotionally attached.

        The sharing of experiences allows us to see the bigger picture with less emotion so that we might best benefit from the next situation that arises. I view this thread as productive.
        That's the thing about emotion. You simply have to ignore what folks calls crazy and plow forward sometimes. We would be far behind as a society if a select few didn't live by that. Mandela being one.

        That's what I loved about your post. You got flamed by your contemporaries and didn't blink - that's strength. So, I guess I was disappointed that you'd think Id blink.

        Plowing forward no matter what is not always an emotional decision - your success is emblematic of that.
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        FILL IN THE BLANKS!
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    • Profile picture of the author mojo1
      Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

      I'll fess up here. plessard posted a thread of straight value related to higher ticket sales. I was thoroughly impressed. He's one of very few recently to impress me. Mr. Wheatley is one....

      Anyone here knows me, I'm all about getting the bigger checks. So I messaged him and asked him if my latest "brain fart" would have helped his business. Rather than to get personal - (as there's a greater lesson to be learned), I will just say I was less than thrilled with his response, and shared my concerns.
      I think I've been around here too long cuz I kinda knew he was speaking about you without mentioning your name
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    many on here aren't seeking advice at all, they're just seeking agreement.
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    Mike

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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Thoughts and opinions are like ashtrays and every smoker has one. That is the essence of individuality. It is more than fine for 2 people to disagree, the point is in the end we are all trying to get to the same place. what is that same place you ask? We all want the American dream, we want the house, the car, the kids, and we want to do that on our own terms. We want to be happy in the way we get there. - even tho the path us collectively on WF have chosen has its moments! haha

      Let me throw a concept out there. We all live in a box... we all think within our boxes... There are those of us that understand that there are other thoughts in other boxes. That is what draws us all here. There is not a single member of WF, that at some level does not understand this. That is why we are here!

      When someone is asking opinions on their in the box thinking, they are wanting to validate their thought or are looking for an out of their box answer. This is where conflict can arises.

      People, boxes, castles, we all monitor and defend our walls. That is human nature. I think it even goes deeper, that is animal instinct. We will defend our territory at any cost, and to some the cost is heavy.

      There is another piece in the box theory that gets looked over, and that is "experience". The experience in one box may not be the same as another. What works for one, may not work for another. Some times I don't understand it, but I accept it for what it is, and try to learn from that experience, be it my own or anothers.

      How many sales landing pages are there collectively among us? How many generate sales? how many don't? Its the same box. Its a different experience! So two people may agree on ABC, and find they have conflicting experience with XYZ. Bring a few more people in, and you may find you now have a group that wont agree on ABC, or XYZ.

      The bottom line is we are all here to learn, in our own ways we are here to share what we have learned. It comes down to that, and that only. The boxes we are many, the goal is the same. and we all know, there is many paths to the same goal.

      can I get an Amen! hahaha
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