ADVANCED: The Case For A Product Based Business

13 replies
1 hour per day, 5 days a week to service my existing customers in the paper receipt roll business. Not location dependent or have to carry stock.

Compared to a service based business where the delivery of the service usually takes longer, often takes longer than expected and often there is ongoing up-skilling.

Service based businesses appear easier to start because they appear to take less money to start.

Now many product based businesses don't require you to carry stock which means you just contact the maker and send to your customers. Have a good relationship with them and they may even give you 30 days credit, like my supplier does.

Supplying essentials to business means once you have a customer they are a long term asset where you have created equity in a very saleable asset.

Whereas many service based businesses where the owners knowledge is required to service clients, drops the potential buyers
by a lot.

They miss out on the BIG payday on the sale of the business.

I wonder if they ever thought about that when getting into their service business.

Best,
Ewen
#advanced #based #business #case #product
  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
    Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

    1 hour per day, 5 days a week to service my existing customers in the paper receipt roll business. Not location dependent or have to carry stock.

    Compared to a service based business where the delivery of the service usually takes longer, often takes longer than expected and often there is ongoing up-skilling.

    Service based businesses appear easier to start because they appear to take less money to start.

    Now many product based businesses don't require you to carry stock which means you just contact the maker and send to your customers. Have a good relationship with them and they may even give you 30 days credit, like my supplier does.

    Supplying essentials to business means once you have a customer they are a long term asset where you have created equity in a very saleable asset.

    Whereas many service based businesses where the owners knowledge is required to service clients, drops the potential buyers
    by a lot.

    They miss out on the BIG payday on the sale of the business.

    I wonder if they ever thought about that when getting into their service business.

    Best,
    Ewen
    Not necessarily, Ewen.

    A dentist might sell his practice (service type business) and receive a big payday.

    What is he actually selling, that the buyer would pay up to 10x the annual income for?

    1.Location? No, he leases the space
    2.Equipment? Not worth today what was originally paid for it.
    3.Customer List? There's the value.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9257397].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
    Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

    Whereas many service based businesses where the owners knowledge is required to service clients, drops the potential buyers by a lot.
    In a case like that, can we even call it a business? It's more like a job - working in the business, rather than "on" the business.

    You can't scale it, you can hardly sell it (since a serious buyer wants to buy a business and not a job), etc.

    It might be easier to build a business out of a product, as you were pointing out.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9257833].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

      In a case like that, can we even call it a business? It's more like a job - working in the business, rather than "on" the business.

      You can't scale it, you can hardly sell it (since a serious buyer wants to buy a business and not a job), etc.

      It might be easier to build a business out of a product, as you were pointing out.
      Actually it has been scaled, Action Coach is an example.
      It's been grown to over 1,000 franchisees. However the franchisees business doesn't have the same intrinsic value from what I can see because I'm not aware of them finding a market to be unsold. Product based franchisees get sold on the open market regularly.

      Best,
      Ewen
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9257863].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
        I get what you're saying about the Product based business, but the service businesses can have a MUCH higher profit margin. It might take me $1M in product to make $100k in profits. Versus $200k in service to make $100k in profits. That's something to consider when you're considering products vs service.

        In the end the service businesses sell for more or less the same as the product businesses. At least here in the states. I still got over a 3x valuation for my service business. There's really no difference, you're getting a multiple of the cash flow or EBITA of the business regardless of how that cash flow is generated. So regardless of what the topline revenue is you're still paid for the sale on the bottom line. I'm on the board of directors and a share holder of a few local companies. We're selling a pretty large consulting company for 7x EBITA , and it has a fairly large personality component to it.

        So sorry I disagree with your assertion that service companies are limited in their ability to be resold. There's a market for most types of businesses, and the variables aren't so much in the classification of service vs product, but more in as Marcus Lemonis would say People, Processes, Product. Most business under $1M EBITA will sell for 1-4x. And then once you get over $1M EBITA it kind of depends on the industry and again the systems and people you have in place.
        Signature
        We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

        Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9259665].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
          Originally Posted by MRomeo09 View Post

          I get what you're saying about the Product based business, but the service businesses can have a MUCH higher profit margin. It might take me $1M in product to make $100k in profits. Versus $200k in service to make $100k in profits. That's something to consider when you're considering products vs service.
          I can see the argument for both sides. What I don't see, however, is the assumption that a product based service is only going to make a 10% profit. I own a small product based business and have a much higher markup. I don't even import anything either, though I've been considering it.

          Regarding it being a "job", yep. You got me there. However it's also a legal entity that has an established brand which has massive room for growth. I could easily give someone a PROVEN blueprint for expansion. Actually, I could do that in related industries as well. This market is extremely broad. I can do that because I've been through a sale as an employee and know many of the details. I also know people that I used to work with that are doing it.

          Another big advantage of product based businesses is customer service and returns. If I sell someone an "Acme Red Widget" at a fair price the odds of me getting a return are slim to none. This is particularly true if the item is an expendable. The customer already knows exactly what they're getting. That's not always a clear cut issue with service based businesses - even with signed contracts. That's why they created these people called "attorneys". Ugh. LOL

          That being said, I'm seriously considering selling my business because of recent changes that are requiring me to stock much more inventory than I'd like. I'm not fond of that. It's also becoming very competitive.

          Still, as I said before, there's massive room for growth for the right individual(s).

          I'd be able to sit down with a potential buyer and give them an average annual dollar value per customer, as well as the potential lifetime value. There are several things I could do to sweeten the deal.

          I believe that each type of business has its pros and cons.
          Signature

          My New "Share All" Blog Is Coming Soon! Online & Offline Marketing, More!

          http://www.UnCENTSored.com

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9262826].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    I think the tone of what Ewen is saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that it is important to have a specific product to sell.

    That product could be physical or it could be virtual. The important point is that it is well-defined and repeatable.

    For example, custom websites would not fit this definition.

    A plumbing website that you develop once and sell over and over to many plumbers would.

    Perhaps the difference lies in the amount of creating vs. selling you must do. I recently have decided to change my entire business model to a more "product" based business. I got completely burned out on providing custom services to businesses.

    I see many, many people on here who have not well defined exactly what they will sell. I was in the same position. IMO, that is a recipe for frustration and sales difficulties.

    Ewen sells paper. Some people sell buildings. Some people sell furniture. Some sell auto parts.

    I'd much rather sell a building than physically build one. I'd much rather sell furniture than create it. I would much rather sell transmissions than work on them.

    Of course, there is money to be made in building, creating, and working on things. But, it can be harder to see your way through to profits.

    For me, if you want to sell services to businesses, you should "productize" your services as much as possible. Turn them into specific items you sell. This will eliminate all the custom quoting, specs, changes, and client headaches that can eat up so much time and kill your margins.

    "This is what you get. This is what it will do for you. This is what it costs."

    That's my take anyway. I'm quite happy I moved in this direction.
    Signature
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9262330].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      For me, if you want to sell services to businesses, you should "productize" your services as much as possible. Turn them into specific items you sell. This will eliminate all the custom quoting, specs, changes, and client headaches that can eat up so much time and kill your margins.

      "This is what you get. This is what it will do for you. This is what it costs."

      That's my take anyway. I'm quite happy I moved in this direction.
      Just joining in the discussion, obviously many businesses are at various stages of success and development with their marketing , lets not get into specifics we know what is meant, and so I do agree with the productisation but how many different shall we call them levels of product do you have to ensure you aren't offering Social Media profile set up in a package to businesses that already have SM set up etc
      Signature

      Mike

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9262412].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Dan, what I find fascinating, not a judgement call,
      is you are very process minded, yet you fell into the trap
      of time creep with customization.

      To me, it's like even the best process minds,
      get caught by tailor made services.

      Thanks for coming in with your recent experience.

      Best,
      Ewen

      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      I think the tone of what Ewen is saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that it is important to have a specific product to sell.

      That product could be physical or it could be virtual. The important point is that it is well-defined and repeatable.

      For example, custom websites would not fit this definition.

      A plumbing website that you develop once and sell over and over to many plumbers would.

      Perhaps the difference lies in the amount of creating vs. selling you must do. I recently have decided to change my entire business model to a more "product" based business. I got completely burned out on providing custom services to businesses.

      I see many, many people on here who have not well defined exactly what they will sell. I was in the same position. IMO, that is a recipe for frustration and sales difficulties.

      Ewen sells paper. Some people sell buildings. Some people sell furniture. Some sell auto parts.

      I'd much rather sell a building than physically build one. I'd much rather sell furniture than create it. I would much rather sell transmissions than work on them.

      Of course, there is money to be made in building, creating, and working on things. But, it can be harder to see your way through to profits.

      For me, if you want to sell services to businesses, you should "productize" your services as much as possible. Turn them into specific items you sell. This will eliminate all the custom quoting, specs, changes, and client headaches that can eat up so much time and kill your margins.

      "This is what you get. This is what it will do for you. This is what it costs."

      That's my take anyway. I'm quite happy I moved in this direction.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9262714].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        Dan, What I find fascinating, not a judgement call,
        is you are very process minded, yet you fell into the trap
        of time creep with customization.

        To me, it's like even the best process minds,
        get caught by tailor made services.

        Thanks for coming in with your recent experience.

        Best,
        Ewen
        It can be difficult! Like you said, I am a very linear thinker. I'm also an experienced project manager for very, very large projects in another life before marketing. I've managed large multi-nation projects with thousands of people and moving parts and kept things on schedule.

        Even with that level of time and schedule discipline, custom work can get to be a time sink. Even with predefined liquidated damages, upcharges, and additional fees already decided, custom work (especially as a one man show with contract team) is tiring!

        I'm in a good position so am taking the time to completely pivot my approach. I realized building a large marketing agency is not something I am interested in or can really accomplish on the scale that I desire. I don't have the right personality for that.

        Looking for scale, selling something very specific is much better for me.
        Signature
        Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9262782].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
    Interesting discussion. I would also agree that there are pros and cons to product or service based businesses.

    This point really hit home with me "Whereas many service based businesses where the owners knowledge is required to service clients, drops the potential buyers
    by a lot."

    This is such a true statement for many small and medium businesses. Things change dramatically based on who is running it and how. I spent many years building custom software solutions and process documentation and automation and was generally called in when the owner was at the "tipping point" - thanks Ewen :-) ; and had decided that at some point they were going to sell their business and really needed to port the information that was in their head into an actual documented/process driven business.

    The business owners that did NOT do this had huge problems selling and most of the time just passed it down to family members. The ones that successfully introduced process/documentation/custom software often found that the exercise allowed them to take advantage of opportunities they had not seen before and when they did finally sell made out much better than their counterparts.
    Signature
    Ready to generate the next million in sales? The Next Million Agency
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9263292].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Originally Posted by plessard View Post

      Interesting discussion. I would also agree that there are pros and cons to product or service based businesses.

      This point really hit home with me "Whereas many service based businesses where the owners knowledge is required to service clients, drops the potential buyers
      by a lot."

      This is such a true statement for many small and medium businesses. Things change dramatically based on who is running it and how. I spent many years building custom software solutions and process documentation and automation and was generally called in when the owner was at the "tipping point" - thanks Ewen :-) ; and had decided that at some point they were going to sell their business and really needed to port the information that was in their head into an actual documented/process driven business.

      The business owners that did NOT do this had huge problems selling and most of the time just passed it down to family members. The ones that successfully introduced process/documentation/custom software often found that the exercise allowed them to take advantage of opportunities they had not seen before and when they did finally sell made out much better than their counterparts.
      That's irrelevant to whether the business is product based or service based however. Go back to my original post where it comes down to People, Processes, Product. Any business that has three aspects in good shape can be sold. It doesn't matter if it's a product business or a service business.

      Let me tell a story to make my point. One time I bought at a Sheriff's auction over 20 years ago over 40 truck loads of commercial air conditioners for a few hundred bucks. It took me about two years to sell off the bits. Some I was able to repair and sell for a few thousand a piece, some I broke down for parts and sold, and some I sold just for the metal. The point is, there's no process here to buy the goods. Even though it's a "product" business, so it really can't be sold it was a one time windfall of cash.

      I'm just not agreeing with the assertion that any one type of business is more inherently valuable than another because of the type of business that it is. The value of the business is in the cash flow it creates. That value can be altered drastically by many factors of which I don't find service versus product to be as great as the systems like you talk about.

      When you sell a business it has much to do with many factors. First you're going to look at your cash flow, because cash is king. Then you're going to get a sales price based upon what types of people, and processes you have in place. A mature business with a management team in place is going to sell for a higher multiple than a do it yourself plumber who is selling a job.

      Look at it this way. One person is selling a handyman business with a truck, and all the tools that makes $80k a year. This business is probably going to sell for .75-2x. Maybe $50-150k a year let's call it. It's a service business right? It has some value but not as much as it could have.

      Then take a look at a retail shop, it makes the owner the same $80k, and it will sell for around the same multiples .75-2x. It's not inherently more valuable to a business buyer than the plumbing business. Other than perhaps more people might be interested in buying it.

      Most businesses under $200k EBITA don't actually sell. It's a micro business issue rather than a service vs product business. They don't get big enough to hire the people or create the processes to sell. But even very high grossing businesses can fail to sell when the processes and people aren't in place. I did work for a client of mine who did medical doctor recruiting, but he refused to hire any employees. He made on average $2-4M a year by himself(Been 10 years so the numbers hazy to be honest). Totally unsellable business because he worked alone. Good job to have though, even if he works like a maniac.

      So mostly I would exclude businesses grossing less than a million and netting less than $200k, as they aren't really "businesses" but more jobs. And just for the sake of argument I'd say there's just as many service business as product businesses over $200k. Although you might argue that there are more service businesses below that line and I would agree. A better question might be why are those businesses not over the million dollar mark. And that's mostly because they aren't building better people, processes and products. One of my mentors told me the best thing a fledgling entrepreneur can do when they are first starting to make some profit, is to reinvest that capital in really good people, because good people oftentimes are better than cash in the bank. However most business owners take that cash and buy a car with it.

      So if we're looking at businesses over $200k in profit then you can start to see some differentations. Yes many time and people intensive people businesses sell for smaller multiples than lets say manufacturers. But much of the value of these small businesses is in the people and processes. If they have a management chain in place that increases the value. If they have systems, processes and procedures that's another value multiplier. It really comes down to just a few things, how quickly can I get my money back and how easy is this thing going to be to manage and grow if I buy it.

      As a general rule a very specialized service business that requires specialized skills can limit the buyer pool, this is true, but not to the point that it's unsellable given the right people, processes and product(Sorry Marcus this Marcos is stealing your terms). There are still strategic buyers. And there are still rollups happening in the middle market with specialized service business. There's an equity firm doing rollups of auto body shops in the South East. And another doing rollups of commercial roofing companies.

      Any business can be sold if it's structured in the right way. It's the ones who aren't prepared(ala what Plessard said), that sell for much less than the ones who have a good system in place.

      I personally don't have a preference either way, I always think it's about the cash. I want to know how easy it to run, and how much money does it make. What it "does" is secondary.
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9268178].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
        Originally Posted by MRomeo09 View Post

        That's irrelevant to whether the business is product based or service based however. Go back to my original post where it
        Perhaps my post was not clear. I was NOT disagreeing with you :-)
        As I said I think there are pros and cons to both. My post was simply stating that some businesses (service or product) may be easier to sell based on how they are setup.

        After re-reading it all I do agree though that there are more buyers for product based businesses for one simple fact. Not all buyers are as educated in business as you are. You are NOT the average buyer. You stated yourself you look for ease of running the business. What would be easy for you in a service business could be brutal for someone with less business experience that would be more comfortable selling a widget.
        Signature
        Ready to generate the next million in sales? The Next Million Agency
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9268258].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
          I hear what you're saying, but I think it's mostly a matter of whether they have a real business to sell or not. A business isn't a job. If you're the one designing web sites and writing code, etc you don't have a business, you have a job. Most companies making less than $200k EBITA are just good jobs. But once you build a real business, with proper staffing, proper procedures, processes and systems then it's saleable. It really doesn't matter whether you're selling a product or a service it's the size and structure of the business that's important.

          So while I hear what you're saying, I just disagree. Yes your buyers pool may be smaller, but it doesn't materially affect the selling price. And that's the real key. You can only buy a business once or sell it once.

          If what you say is true, then you would expect to find some correlation in market prices. For instance you should be able to look at a business that has $150k EBITA and expect different multiples based on the distinction of whether it's a service business vs a product business. I just don't find it to be the case, other than some outlier business types.

          There's a market for about anything. And I just don't agree with the assertion that because it's specialized you've lost the ability to sell. Recently in my area there was big news because a realtor actually sold his business for $1.5M, and you would think that's the definition of a business that can't be sold. It's generally businesses that require licensure that cause the most difficulty in selling, because as you say the buyer pool is smaller. However if the price isn't materially affected, who cares?

          It's pretty simple to kind of eyeball prices of businesses for sale to see if you see some trends. Here are some businesses that require licensure, so you would think the selling price would be much lower:

          Florida Special Trades Businesses For Sale - BizBuySell.com

          Yet I see businesses for sale between 1.5x and 6x.

          Florida Retail Businesses For Sale - BizBuySell.com

          Then here are retail businesses(products mostly), while there are many more of them, there are also many more of these businesses period. And again you'll see prices from 1x to 6-7x.

          My point which might be lost in all of this is the factors which predicate a sale have very little to do with what type of business it is, and more to do with plain old cash generated, and then it's modified by the spectrum of hard to run vs easy to run. For a plumber, a plumbing business isn't any harder to run than a pool supply store. But for a computer programmer obviously the difference is vast. Does that make sense?

          The buying and selling of businesses is very illiquid, and many businesses don't sell or can't sell, especially smaller businesses. The easier you make your business to run, the more likely it is to be sold and at that point I don't care what it is the business does.
          Signature
          We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

          Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9271396].message }}

Trending Topics