Having a bad experience with programmers in India

Figured I'd give you some constructive criticism...

Creativitiy -- It is rare to find a programmer that has any idea about how a webpage should be laid out, let alone one that matches your thoughts on font styles and red or black sentences. This is why real programmers build out a scope document for each of their projects... they dont want to waste their time either by guessing at what you think is best.

"I'm not a newbie and I know prices..." -- This signals to me (and I'm sure most other people) that you don't "know prices" but instead that you are cheap. I charge $85/hour to program and I have more work coming to me than I could ever take on... If someone said this to me I likely wouldn't take on this client because this kind of language screams client difficulty.

A lot of it comes down to the if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys thing. Your whole post signifies to me that you would be very difficult to work with and don't pay very much. Available 24/6? An exaggeration, but ridiculous. My availability is 8/5. If you email me I might respond during non-work hours if it goes into the mailbox that gets forwarded to my phone. Even then I wouldn't count on it. FLUENT ENGLISH? Pay someone who speaks it as a first language or screen your programmers, don't simply put it as a condition to email you.

The entire attitude of your post is very confrontational and not something I want to be a part of. You rip on previous programmers, you have a lot of (in my opinion) outrageous requirements, especially when you consider the prior mentioned bit on how I assume you pay very little.

This is just some food for thought on how I think you can attract good programmers and not have to worry about the finished product...

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jminkler 14 years ago

You get what you pay for man ...
- Thanks
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Ken Durham

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JacksonPollock

Figured I'd give you some constructive criticism...

Creativitiy -- It is rare to find a programmer that has any idea about how a webpage should be laid out, let alone one that matches your thoughts on font styles and red or black sentences. This is why real programmers build out a scope document for each of their projects... they dont want to waste their time either by guessing at what you think is best.

"I'm not a newbie and I know prices..." -- This signals to me (and I'm sure most other people) that you don't "know prices" but instead that you are cheap. I charge $85/hour to program and I have more work coming to me than I could ever take on... If someone said this to me I likely wouldn't take on this client because this kind of language screams client difficulty.

A lot of it comes down to the if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys thing. Your whole post signifies to me that you would be very difficult to work with and don't pay very much. Available 24/6? An exaggeration, but ridiculous. My availability is 8/5. If you email me I might respond during non-work hours if it goes into the mailbox that gets forwarded to my phone. Even then I wouldn't count on it. FLUENT ENGLISH? Pay someone who speaks it as a first language or screen your programmers, don't simply put it as a condition to email you.

The entire attitude of your post is very confrontational and not something I want to be a part of. You rip on previous programmers, you have a lot of (in my opinion) outrageous requirements, especially when you consider the prior mentioned bit on how I assume you pay very little.

This is just some food for thought on how I think you can attract good programmers and not have to worry about the finished product...

Agreed... There are some contracts that you learn to avoid.

Thanks

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rraval

Banned 14 years ago

[DELETED]

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mattalways

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JacksonPollock

Figured I'd give you some constructive criticism...

Creativitiy -- It is rare to find a programmer that has any idea about how a webpage should be laid out, let alone one that matches your thoughts on font styles and red or black sentences. This is why real programmers build out a scope document for each of their projects... they dont want to waste their time either by guessing at what you think is best.

"I'm not a newbie and I know prices..." -- This signals to me (and I'm sure most other people) that you don't "know prices" but instead that you are cheap. I charge $85/hour to program and I have more work coming to me than I could ever take on... If someone said this to me I likely wouldn't take on this client because this kind of language screams client difficulty.

A lot of it comes down to the if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys thing. Your whole post signifies to me that you would be very difficult to work with and don't pay very much. Available 24/6? An exaggeration, but ridiculous. My availability is 8/5. If you email me I might respond during non-work hours if it goes into the mailbox that gets forwarded to my phone. Even then I wouldn't count on it. FLUENT ENGLISH? Pay someone who speaks it as a first language or screen your programmers, don't simply put it as a condition to email you.

The entire attitude of your post is very confrontational and not something I want to be a part of. You rip on previous programmers, you have a lot of (in my opinion) outrageous requirements, especially when you consider the prior mentioned bit on how I assume you pay very little.

This is just some food for thought on how I think you can attract good programmers and not have to worry about the finished product...

Exactly what I was thinking! Well said.

Hi,
i alwas prefer to work with company not with freelancers. i know the one company who can help on you work. if you want to try it contact me on below skype

rahul-raval

Keep throwing your money away then. Companies jack the prices up because they have people to pay. They also have sales staffs and know suckers like you are out there. I'd bet very much that the quality of work that they provide is close to horrible.

If you actually look for a quality freelancer, you will get far more for your $$. No idea how many times people come to me to get the job done right after a) using the popular web company in their town, or b) Going with that freelancer from India who promised that he would make his dreams come true at very little cost, without even really saying anything about the project.

It honestly makes me feel a bit sick with what people will pay for this stuff just because of a sales staff. To say the companies in my town are horrible would be the biggest understatement I've ever made. If you came to me with that kind of budget, I'd take care of you from start to finish. From building the site to making your first damn sales haha. Ridiculous!

Thanks

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sameguide

14 years ago

hi, there are many good programmers in india but you should search for good person that can work long term.

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kiopa Banned 14 years ago

Yeah, as already stated, you get what you pay for.

And also as stated above, you sound like a difficult person to work with. You can't expect people to read your mind, and know exactly what you want, and your style from day one. It takes months to build that type of relationship with a client, but it pays off for both in the long-run big time.

That, and it sounds as though you're looking for someone to work for you, not with you. So you're looking for an employee / contractor, not a partnership.
- Thanks
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S E O

14 years ago

Hi I guess that it's in your interest to pay someone a little more and get better quality, it would be wrong to say that you hired 2 guys from India and these two guys were bad (so assume that the rest of the programmers in India are equally horrible) - the problem starts when you start looking for cheap work - I would suggest - the next time you decide to hire someone - first look at the quality of his work not how much he is going to charge you.

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jminkler 14 years ago

I wonder how many people on this forum actually take the time to write out a DESIGN document for their project. Designers and Coders are human, they can't read your mind. A design document lays out EXACTLY what you are paying for, if you want a feature added, tough cookies - it's a separate project. This lays out the expectations for the coder, and what the coder expects from you.

I don't know how many times I see postings for lame **** like ..
"I need a 5 page website",
"I need an exact copy of xxxxx.com" - even for sites like tweetmeme !! Like WTF
"I need a new design for my site"
"I need a database"

Case in point one from my inbox today ....

"Started By: acesystems Status: Open Created: 05/25/2010 08:09am Rating: 1 review) Budget: Expires: 06/24/2010 08:09am (29 Days 21 Hrs.) Project Type: Small ($10 - $400)
Database MySQL Operating System(s) Linux Description: I need an auction script.
I should be able to customize the script. Documentation will be appreciated.

The last programmer I hired messed up the schedule. Please bid only if you know what you are doing.
Bid only what you will charge, I'll pay after I am satisfied.

Feel free to contact me for further details. "
That's it -that's the entire "description" of the work to be done .. this is such a crock of ****.

What's wrong about this?
1) He demands documentation before he GIVES documentation
2) Auction script? why not just go BUY ONE - or get one open source, what makes this different
3) It wasn't the CODER who messed up the schedule it was HIM - HIS lack of project management
4) Bid only what you will charge Ill pay after Im satisfied ???? So basically your telling the poor coder - your ass is mine till I FEEL like it .. like WTF !

Bidders like this should be take in the street and shot ...

And here's my favorite line "It should be no problem if the coder know what he is doing" - If it was so darn easy why don't YOU just do it ... I actually saw this line in SEVERAL eBooks on how to get outsourcing ... such a BAD way to get coding done.
It's exactly advice like this that propagates BAD code bad sites, and nightmare headaches and problems.

Go to oDesk, only accept coders who took the programming tests, do your due diligence, create a design document just like you would make a business plan, hire them hourly, and WATCH them code. Be sure to include security, manageability (code and site) and re usability in your document. Any highschool kid can wip out 98% of every bid on ALL these freelance sites but it takes someone with experience to create something that is usable, and worry free.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to actually know how to code a bit so you can go back and check their work and/or be able to know how things SHOULD be designed and coded.

Most designers give zero thought to page load times, most coders have no design skills. If you are starting a new site get a design done on 99designs, hire another coder to code it in a template engine, and have a different coder write the backend. You'll get more for your money this way. Asking a single freelancer to do all that work almost guarantees your project will fail on so many different levels.
- [ 1 ] Thanks
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jminkler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by wcmylife

Hi,

I need regular websites on a monthly basis..simple stuff. Hired a couple of programmers - two separate occassions and both were horrible. One guy copied a website and modified it and had 12000 CSS files that were not required, the other did not know how to customize the layout for IE - only worked with firefox and chrome.

Another programmer said to KILL this guy

since he was so screwed up...here is what I need

.................................................. ......................................

I am planning to build around 4 websites a month. (2 squeeze pages and 2 sales pages).

Each of these websites will have a max of two or three pages. They will have to be integrated with aweber for the squeeze page and a payment gateway such as paypal for the sales page.

I want someone who can

a. Understand my requirements at the FIRST GO
b. Has experience doing this.
c. Is creative - i.e. I do not want to be spending 4 days telling him/her how to align my bullet points, what's the best font style, which sentence should be in RED and which one in BLACK etc - YOU NEED TO BE CREATIVE and know what sells.
d. Writes/Speaks FLUENT ENGLISH
e. Respond 24/6
f. Work on a long term basis

I am not a newbie and know the prices for this stuff. So if you are quoting crazy rates - I wont respond. ONLY RESPOND if you fullfil the entire bullet list.

Send me an e-mail with your portfolio and your rate for
a. Squeeze page
b. Sales Page
Note: You will have to integrate aweber and upload videos etc. I will provide you the content - I want a working partnership - long term.

And while you're at it ... why not do some homework. There are PLENTY of FREE scripts you just install and GO. Butterfly Marketing ??

If your really serious about "making money online" don't forget the most important part of that phrase ONLINE. If you can't install scripts or google things to get solutions for FREE, you've got a long road ahead of you. Especially if you think you can just pay freelancers to do all the work. You really need to sit down and LEARN how to create these on your own before you try hiring someone to do it for you for several reasons.

1) So don't get ripped off!
2) So you can go check their work
3) So you can be sure they didn't put a back door in the entire system (wonder how many of THOSE are out there lol)
4) So when you can't FIND a good coder your whole business doesn't come to a screeching HALT !

so many more reasons ...

Thanks

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jminkler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by wcmylife

I need regular websites on a monthly basis..simple stuff.

If it's so simple ... why are you having such a problem?

Originally Posted by wcmylife

I am not a newbie and know the prices for this stuff. So if you are quoting crazy rates - I wont respond. ONLY RESPOND if you fullfil the entire bullet list.

Do you really know the price of this stuff? Do you know there are FREE scripts for this?

You are asking for the wrong project to be built .. you say your not a newbie, but goodness your doing it all wrong .. what you really want is a website creator!

Thanks

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mattalways

14 years ago

lol the thing I like about this is that on the freelance sites like Elance, you need to pay to send a message or proposal to tell these types of people what you think about their posting.

Don't get me wrong, I have found projects on Elance that have made me annoyed enough to pay to tell them what I think lol.

Thanks
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Quit wasting your money! If you need a website, get me to do it right! I'll probably even do it for less! Design/Development/Software, I'm your guy! matt@snidge.com

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jminkler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mattalways

lol the thing I like about this is that on the freelance sites like Elance, you need to pay to send a message or proposal to tell these types of people what you think about their posting.

Don't get me wrong, I have found projects on Elance that have made me annoyed enough to pay to tell them what I think lol.

Don't know how many people I've told they were on CRACK for a $0 bid on Rent-a-Coder ...

Thanks

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Audrey Harvey

13 years ago

Your post would be better placed in the "Wanted - Members Looking to Hire You" board.

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saxatwork

13 years ago

Agreeing to all that's said above, it's not always the buyer, it's sometimes the coder who bids on the project. I am on RAC, and have got good results when I ask questions back to the buyer, and if needed, I ask them to provide a login to their site if possible so that I know exactly what they need, before I quote a price. I've got good results that way, and on-going customer relationships. There are coders in every country who do that. And then again, there are some who just push an impressive resume forward, but doesn't have a clue about your requirements.

As a suggestion, also be open to questions that come from people who bid, and see what options you have to make sure that you get a great guy to work with.

Thanks

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mywebwork

13 years ago

Some excellent points here, not much more to add. I think the message is pretty clear - you get what you pay for. And it has noting to do with the nationality of the coder - there are excellent coders in every country (and also "not so excellent" ones). The trick is in finding them.

If you want your programmer to make design decisions for you forget it - you're looking for a designer.

If you want your programmer to write copy for you forget it - what you are after is a copywriter.

And if you truly want to manage your programming staff then you need experience in programming yourself. Otherwise how can you possibly judge how "easy" a task is or what quality of work you are receiving?

My partner and I have hired some absolutely excellent coders, ours happen to be in the Philippines. I manage them, and I am a programmer myself with experience dating back into the mid-70's. We pay them well and treat them right, and in turn they have provided us with excellent work. I have worked in IT all my life and they are among the brightest and best I have ever encountered.

We did go through a few who were not as great, and after a fair trial period we parted ways with them. And that is to be expected.

While ours are in the Philippines I know there are excellent resources in other countries, especially India. India is home to some of the brightest and most skilled workers in the world. So just because you had a bad experience with a couple of people please don't write off the second most populated nation on Earth as being incompetent!

Best of luck in your quest for a "long term working partnership" - heed some of the fine advice on this thread and perhaps you'll actually find it!

Bill

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

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Revolves

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mywebwork

Some excellent points here, not much more to add. I think the message is pretty clear - you get what you pay for. And it has noting to do with the nationality of the coder - there are excellent coders in every country (and also "not so excellent" ones). The trick is in finding them.

If you want your programmer to make design decisions for you forget it - you're looking for a designer.

If you want your programmer to write copy for you forget it - what you are after is a copywriter.

And if you truly want to manage your programming staff then you need experience in programming yourself. Otherwise how can you possibly judge how "easy" a task is or what quality of work you are receiving?

My partner and I have hired some absolutely excellent coders, ours happen to be in the Philippines. I manage them, and I am a programmer myself with experience dating back into the mid-70's. We pay them well and treat them right, and in turn they have provided us with excellent work. I have worked in IT all my life and they are among the brightest and best I have ever encountered.

We did go through a few who were not as great, and after a fair trial period we parted ways with them. And that is to be expected.

While ours are in the Philippines I know there are excellent resources in other countries, especially India. India is home to some of the brightest and most skilled workers in the world. So just because you had a bad experience with a couple of people please don't write off the second most populated nation on Earth as being incompetent!

Best of luck in your quest for a "long term working partnership" - heed some of the fine advice on this thread and perhaps you'll actually find it!

Bill

I couldn't agree more! Also, as jminkler said above, many (or should I say most) of the outsourcing "stuff" mention that you'd have no problems if the coder knows what he is doing. This seems to imply that if you are having a problem, then it's the coder's fault.

Almost all software development books never fail to mention that even formal requirements are never static. The customers always seem to change some or many of their requirements. They might really not know what they want.

I personally believe that a simple programmer is much like a translator. He'll translate a formal idea in plain English into usable software, regardless of how bad that "formal idea" might be. Here, the responsibility of how usable the software is lies with the customer, who chose to design it that way.

Of course, if you want someone to figure out the best way to programmatically achieve some "end-result", then you're looking for a professional Software Developer (or even an Architect in complex projects), not a "coder." And they're indeed hard to find, regardless of how many kids learn a bunch of languages when they're 10.

-Revolves

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John Emdat

13 years ago

Sir I am interested in your work, & I am sure you wont have any complains from me!

Thanks

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Nexstair

13 years ago

HI,

Just spent some time in going through all the posts and got a few good points.Yes, it happens when you are working with someone on freelance basis.My sincere suggestion for you is to follow these steps once you decide on hiring someone.

1- Ask them to provide some references.
2- Dont pay any upfront until you see something done.
3- Check their website portfolio to inspect their level of expertise.

I may have few more points to discuss and you can reach me through Skype at getitdone47.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by wcmylife

Hi,

I need regular websites on a monthly basis..simple stuff. Hired a couple of programmers - two separate occassions and both were horrible. One guy copied a website and modified it and had 12000 CSS files that were not required, the other did not know how to customize the layout for IE - only worked with firefox and chrome.

Another programmer said to KILL this guy

since he was so screwed up...here is what I need

.................................................. ......................................

I am planning to build around 4 websites a month. (2 squeeze pages and 2 sales pages).

Each of these websites will have a max of two or three pages. They will have to be integrated with aweber for the squeeze page and a payment gateway such as paypal for the sales page.

I want someone who can

a. Understand my requirements at the FIRST GO
b. Has experience doing this.
c. Is creative - i.e. I do not want to be spending 4 days telling him/her how to align my bullet points, what's the best font style, which sentence should be in RED and which one in BLACK etc - YOU NEED TO BE CREATIVE and know what sells.
d. Writes/Speaks FLUENT ENGLISH
e. Respond 24/6
f. Work on a long term basis

I am not a newbie and know the prices for this stuff. So if you are quoting crazy rates - I wont respond. ONLY RESPOND if you fullfil the entire bullet list.

Send me an e-mail with your portfolio and your rate for
a. Squeeze page
b. Sales Page
Note: You will have to integrate aweber and upload videos etc. I will provide you the content - I want a working partnership - long term.

Thanks

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Having a bad experience with programmers in India

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