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Coders - Where are you?

by MrJackBauer
17 replies
Hi there,


I have been looking around all over the place online for a 'Wordpress Coding Genius' as I like to call it. I have a project in mind that includes coding a frame that allows me to use a WP blog on an Invision Power Board forum. Now a friend of mine that works 24/7 and has a young child, tells me that he as 'decent' standard coder with a background knowledge of Wordpress and Forum software/web design could do this job (if he had the time) in a straight 5-7 hour work frame.

Sounds easy huh? Well actually it's been anything but. I have contacted Invision, left messages on forums, spoke to between 20-30 parties that have been recommended as third parties relations to IPB of which 90% didn't reply and the remaining 10% played a game of 'Hey I can't do this, but he can' rinse and repeat. I spoke to one guy, who quoted me £170 an hour to do this job, stating 'he really was the best of the best' - I mean really, come on?

I mean really, what does it take to hire a 'decent standard' coder who can work for say £10p/h and get what I've been quoted as a 'relatively easy job' done without hassle.


Can anyone within WF, recommend me or direct me to a good bunch of coders that can help me on this project? I really am coming to the end of my patience.


If anyone has any recommendations that they don't want to share, or indeed if any coders are interested in hearing more on the job, feel free to PM me.

Thanks, guys.
#coders
  • Profile picture of the author Brandon Tanner
    Originally Posted by MrJackBauer View Post

    I mean really, what does it take to hire a 'decent standard' coder who can work for say £10p/h and get what I've been quoted as a 'relatively easy job' done without hassle.
    I think it takes "living in a fantasy land". Or, a LOT of luck!

    What you want to do sounds somewhat specialized. And as a general rule of thumb, the more specialized the job is, the more you're going to have to pay to get it done (especially if you want it done right).

    You're going to have a hard time finding a quality coder to do specialized work for £10p/h. Not saying that you can't find a good one at that price point - only that it will be difficult (ie you will likely have to go through a LOT of BS before you find that one rare 'up and coming' coder who's actually competent, who for a brief period of time will charge far less than what his skills are worth, just to build up his portfolio). <-- That's like finding a needle in a haystack though! Programming is hard work - that's why the real professionals make very good money doing it.

    Also, I would never hire someone by the hour (unless you REALLY trust that person). Always agree to a fixed price up front for the entire project, before the job starts. Otherwise, you're just begging to be ripped off.

    That said, I've used both Guru.com and Elance many times in the past, and have been fortunate to have worked with some great coders at both places (but again, the good ones aren't cheap)! So you might want to check out those places. Also, the 'Warriors for hire' section is another option (though you will probably have a harder time finding 'specialized' talent around here, than you would at the more popular freelancing sites).
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  • Profile picture of the author Tradeout
    I'll hear more...

    Why do you want to mash WP into IPB?

    Maybe an explanation of your end goal will interest us coders enough to take a look.
    One of the reason I like programming is because it generally involves solving complex problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author MrJackBauer
    £10 was just a ball park figure, I totally understand you 'get what you pay for' but I'm not paying ridicolous fees like £150 p/h or close to $240 an hour. Cheers for the words though guys, I'll take them on board and try to implement.

    Regarding the actual project, here's a little more on it's background.

    http://community.invisionpower.com/t...f-my-patience/

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    • Profile picture of the author SashaV
      The problem with looking for exceptionally cheap programmers, is that sometimes you'll get even less than you pay for.

      The ones that charge in the ballpark of £ 10/hr simply are not very good. They might not be able to get the job done at all, no matter how many hours they spend on it.

      £100 p/h is not unreasonable for a good programmer. There just aren't that many of them, and they get things done - quickly and well.

      (experience: 15 years a full-time / consulting programmer)

      Originally Posted by MrJackBauer View Post

      £10 was just a ball park figure, I totally understand you 'get what you pay for' but I'm not paying ridicolous fees like £150 p/h or close to $240 an hour. Cheers for the words though guys, I'll take them on board and try to implement.

      Regarding the actual project, here's a little more on it's background.

      http://community.invisionpower.com/t...f-my-patience/
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  • Profile picture of the author FirstSocialApps
    Originally Posted by MrJackBauer View Post

    I mean really, what does it take to hire a 'decent standard' coder who can work for say £10p/h and get what I've been quoted as a 'relatively easy job' done without hassle.
    Im sorry but I just have to laugh at this. $10 per hour! Thats funny. Ill tell you what it takes, it takes living in a dream world. I was a full time freelancer for several years. Id of hung up on someone who offered me $10 per hour (after yelling at them for insulting me). $50 per hour is a very competitive price for a good coder. This isnt McDonald's here, were not flipping burgers. Coders spent YEARS honing there skill and are constantly needing to keep up to date with new tech and new practices.

    Programming is a highly skilled job that needs to be done by a professional. If you want professional work you need to expect to pay professional prices.

    A 7 hour job is around a 1/2 days work (most coders work 12-14 hours a day in my exp) I would expect to pay around $350 for that work. I would expect debug, testing and tweaking to be included however in that price.
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    • Profile picture of the author craftziner
      Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps View Post


      Programming is a highly skilled job that needs to be done by a professional. If you want professional work you need to expect to pay professional prices.
      Rightly said. It's also not easy to find the right kind of talent, sometimes without a lot of trial and error... I've tried getting folks on oDesk, and get a zillion applications but not easy to get a good one from the lot...

      Let's not divert from the OPs topic though... (I can't see the link you posted because it needs me to login)... Maybe you would want to first hire someone with good experience (higher pay per hour) to do a bit of project management work on this, discuss your requirement and get him/her to split this into tasks, and then look for someone less talented (lower pay per hour) to do the actual coding?
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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        I'll take the road less traveled here. Yes, software design is a highly skilled profession. But that doesn't mean that there aren't thousands of people who are willing to work at a fraction of the rates mentioned above.

        I'm experienced on both sides: I was paid well to design software from '76 to '97. I was also very successful in hiring people for dimes-on-the-dollar at the (now defunct) RentACoder/vWorker marketplace from '05 to '12.

        The main trick to getting outsourced work done at sites like oDesk is to be as incredibly detailed as possible in your specification; do not assume anything. It's also very helpful to break up tasks into very tiny jobs, even if they are done by the same person.
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        • Profile picture of the author FirstSocialApps
          Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

          The main trick to getting outsourced work done at sites like oDesk is to be as incredibly detailed as possible in your specification; do not assume anything.
          This is extremely good advise. You must be detailed in your specs. Especially if its a flat rate job. Scope creep can be a problem if you are not. Its also important to note that with sites like vWorker (I worked on vWorker by the way, was in the 99.8th percentile in the all coder competition) when you pay a low rate you are still paying a professional price. It just happens that your hiring someone from an country that has a very favorable exchange rate such as India. That comes with its own problems however, such as time difference and language barriers.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps View Post

            ...when you pay a low rate you are still paying a professional price. It just happens that your hiring someone from an country that has a very favorable exchange rate...
            Precisely! I've often had conversations with my contractors where they freely admit their constant amazement that Americans like myself pay such a high rate.

            Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps View Post

            ...such as India.
            Ironically, over recent years, India's economy has enjoyed such a tremendous boost from outsourcing efforts that I find their rates no longer competitive for my own outsourcing needs. Thankfully, there are still other countries which are.

            Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps View Post

            That comes with its own problems however, such as time difference and language barriers.
            One approach to the latter point is to pay very close attention to the interview period; it's difficult for most people to fake language proficiency. As for time difference, I just don't let it bother me. I do stipulate up front that I expect regular communication at least every 24 hours, and silence for 72 hours is grounds for abrupt termination of the contract.
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            • Profile picture of the author Backlinks Explorer
              Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

              I do stipulate up front that I expect regular communication at least every 24 hours, and silence for 72 hours is grounds for abrupt termination of the contract.
              In my experience a coder would often dissapear from the radar from a few days then come back and say that his uncle had died.

              The excuse was used so often that it must be a "dog ate my homework" style stock excuse, but then if it turned out to be true then I'd feel guilty for terminating them.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
                Originally Posted by Backlinks Explorer View Post

                Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

                I do stipulate up front that I expect regular communication at least every 24 hours, and silence for 72 hours is grounds for abrupt termination of the contract.
                In my experience a coder would often dissapear from the radar from a few days then come back and say that his uncle had died.

                The excuse was used so often that it must be a "dog ate my homework" style stock excuse, but then if it turned out to be true then I'd feel guilty for terminating them.
                Which is precisely why I make that stipulation up front. Uncles tend to die far less frequently this way. Maybe I should cross-market this idea in the health forum?
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  • Profile picture of the author annaharris
    What are your requirements for hiring a "Wordpress coder" ?
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  • Profile picture of the author GilGarcia
    Good luck finding a good Wordpress developer for ~10£ an hour.

    I'm no WordPress "Genius", and my rate is 650 SEK per hour (around 100 USD) and I have never had any problem finding customers / projects at that rate - I am in fact constantly refusing projects.

    The best advice in this tree is to be as detailed as possible - Assume nothing - And regarding payment, always remember, the quality of the product is dictated by your budget.

    If you do decide to go with a cheap coder, he will most likely disappear and leave you stranded with a half baked buggy product, which in the long run means that you will have to hire (yet) another coder to fix his work, increasing the final cost.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael71
    $10/h ... lol

    Come on... you can't expect a Ferrari for a Fiat 127 budget. Wake up... are you working for $10/h?

    Why are you assuming that professionals should work for $10 or even $20 per hour?
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  • Profile picture of the author robdoby
    Originally Posted by MrJackBauer View Post

    Hi there,


    I have been looking around all over the place online for a 'Wordpress Coding Genius' as I like to call it. I have a project in mind that includes coding a frame that allows me to use a WP blog on an Invision Power Board forum. Now a friend of mine that works 24/7 and has a young child, tells me that he as 'decent' standard coder with a background knowledge of Wordpress and Forum software/web design could do this job (if he had the time) in a straight 5-7 hour work frame.

    Sounds easy huh? Well actually it's been anything but. I have contacted Invision, left messages on forums, spoke to between 20-30 parties that have been recommended as third parties relations to IPB of which 90% didn't reply and the remaining 10% played a game of 'Hey I can't do this, but he can' rinse and repeat. I spoke to one guy, who quoted me £170 an hour to do this job, stating 'he really was the best of the best' - I mean really, come on?

    I mean really, what does it take to hire a 'decent standard' coder who can work for say £10p/h and get what I've been quoted as a 'relatively easy job' done without hassle.


    Can anyone within WF, recommend me or direct me to a good bunch of coders that can help me on this project? I really am coming to the end of my patience.


    If anyone has any recommendations that they don't want to share, or indeed if any coders are interested in hearing more on the job, feel free to PM me.

    Thanks, guys.
    Sounds like an outsource job at that price/hr.

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    Post your project, list your budget & get job bids from experienced coders.
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  • Profile picture of the author webdeveloperindia
    I am agree with GilGarcia! You can't find Wordpress developer for ~10£ an hour, if you are really serious about your project then you need to spend at-least 20 -25£ an hour or more a highly specialize person can only understand and complete your project within decided turnaround time.
    GooD Luck !!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael71
    Sorry to start bashing...

    but to be honest, I have seen so much $10/hour coder's html/css... and nearly everyone is NOT able to write good html/css at all.

    Example:

    WP themes sold as WSO... one look at the source code and I must ask myself how people can sell this semi-professional stuff at all.

    I have only seen two or three themes/plugins in the whole time I am registered here that had good html/css (at least valid HTML).

    WF is for beta testing and bug hunting... that's what I really think LOL

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    And then most of those guys are not even able to fix all errors that honest buyers report to them... after a week or two support desk is... gone?!

    Or people coming here asking for help like...

    "I have a client, he has a blog, there are some errors... help"...

    Ofcourse it's a premium theme bought at elegantthemes, themeforest,... they make money with stuff they do not even know (not the problem) and asking for help to save their asses... bought theme for $40 and sold for $600

    Ofcourse the help must be for FREE and RIGHT NOW!

    I know html/css pretty well, I know frontend performance optimizing really well...

    But I do NOT work for $10/hour. High quality means higher prices (same as with cars).

    I got asked several times from a well known WSO seller to help him making "stuff" responsive... because the main developer has no clue about it at all (most PHP devs are not really good writing html/css). He had no problem to pay $50/hour.
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