Non-relvent backlinks?

by chini
58 replies
  • SEO
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Hey im having trouble finding relevant backlinks in a small niche im trying to rank for. Can you still rank well by getting non-relevent links with good PR (e.g. angelas backlinks) and linking them to your blog?

Or what else do you recommend when trying to get good back links in smaller niches?
#backlinks #nonrelvent
  • Profile picture of the author Harvey Affcash
    Try social bookmarking sites.
    There are plenty out there.
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    • Profile picture of the author amber.ella
      Originally Posted by Harvey Affcash View Post

      Try social bookmarking sites.
      There are plenty out there.
      Participate on other techniques as well like classified ads, press release and article submission. Just make sure to post your articles on the right category.
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  • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
    Originally Posted by chini View Post

    Hey im having trouble finding relevant backlinks in a small niche im trying to rank for. Can you still rank well by getting non-relevent links with good PR (e.g. angelas backlinks) and linking them to your blog?

    Or what else do you recommend when trying to get good back links in smaller niches?
    IMHO, perhaps you should focus on getting backlinks in the first place, and not just "relevant" ones. Most of my sites have few, if any, relevant links and rank well.

    In addition to profile backlinks, find do-follow blogs. The easiest way, IMHO, is to just spy on high ranking sites with yahoo site explorer. Once you have found a do-follow blog site where the main domain is PR6 or higher, here is what I do:

    (1) turn on the SEO Quake firefox addon;
    (2) expand the # of search results in google to 100 per page;
    (3) search for the blog pages on the domain using the various identifies that goole allows or just keywords. For instance, if on blog posts it said "Add comment", then in Google type: "Add Comment" site: blog.com
    (4) rank the pages by PR.
    (5) happy hunting.
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  • Profile picture of the author lumbardi
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    • Profile picture of the author Wealthyclark
      good info thm
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  • Profile picture of the author bodmov
    try to get links for similar sites, for example if your keyword is make money online, you can also get links from sites that are optimized for small business, for example
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  • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
    In my experience, I have good success even if the backlinks are not relevant. If you want relevant links, check out unique article wizard that will submit spin your article and submit to hundreds of relevant blogs and directories
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    When I see these questions now I always give a stock answer along these lines.

    Rand Fishkin is the owner of SEOMOZ.org, one of the most respected online SEO info services around. They analyze TONS of data.

    On 2nd October he said:

    "To be totally honest, I don't think the content relationship (relevancy) or matching subject matter has much of an impact in the algo right now. Off-topic links, so long as they're from powerful, trustworthy sources, seem to help just as much as those with topical matches.
    It may seem weird, but I know I'm far from the only SEO to have observed this phenomenon....."


    So your answer is:

    Relevancy is irrelevant - just build links.
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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      When I see these questions now I always give a stock answer along these lines.

      Rand Fishkin is the owner of SEOMOZ.org, one of the most respected online SEO info services around. They analyze TONS of data.

      On 2nd October he said:

      "To be totally honest, I don't think the content relationship (relevancy) or matching subject matter has much of an impact in the algo right now. Off-topic links, so long as they're from powerful, trustworthy sources, seem to help just as much as those with topical matches.
      It may seem weird, but I know I'm far from the only SEO to have observed this phenomenon....."


      So your answer is:

      Relevancy is irrelevant - just build links.
      Hi jazbo,

      I believe Rand was was referring to the website topic. That makes sense, since search engines don't rank websites, they rank web pages. It is fundamental to understanding how search engines rank pages if you want to understand the importance of relevancy.

      I believe his remarks are clear when taking in the context of his discussion which was about domain authority, not backlinks from irrelevant pages. Nice try though.

      Website topic is unimportant to the search engines, instead they look at the web that your page is contained within. That web is made up of links to and from your page that aren't necessarily on a single site. A page that contains highly relevant content, and is contained within a web of highly relevant content, is well optimized for search engine relevance. We all know that search engines rank SERP based on relevancy.

      So a more precise answer is:

      Website topic is irrelevant but web page relevancy is paramount - just build relevant links.
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  • Profile picture of the author techinik
    They do help but very less as compared to relevant ones.
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    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
      Originally Posted by thmgoodw View Post

      IMHO, perhaps you should focus on getting backlinks in the first place, and not just "relevant" ones. Most of my sites have few, if any, relevant links and rank well.

      In addition to profile backlinks, find do-follow blogs. The easiest way, IMHO, is to just spy on high ranking sites with yahoo site explorer. Once you have found a do-follow blog site where the main domain is PR6 or higher, here is what I do:

      (1) turn on the SEO Quake firefox addon;
      (2) expand the # of search results in google to 100 per page;
      (3) search for the blog pages on the domain using the various identifies that goole allows or just keywords. For instance, if on blog posts it said "Add comment", then in Google type: "Add Comment" site: blog.com
      (4) rank the pages by PR.
      (5) happy hunting.
      Originally Posted by WinsonYeung View Post

      In my experience, I have good success even if the backlinks are not relevant. If you want relevant links, check out unique article wizard that will submit spin your article and submit to hundreds of relevant blogs and directories
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      When I see these questions now I always give a stock answer along these lines.

      Rand Fishkin is the owner of SEOMOZ.org, one of the most respected online SEO info services around. They analyze TONS of data.

      On 2nd October he said:

      "To be totally honest, I don't think the content relationship (relevancy) or matching subject matter has much of an impact in the algo right now. Off-topic links, so long as they're from powerful, trustworthy sources, seem to help just as much as those with topical matches.
      It may seem weird, but I know I'm far from the only SEO to have observed this phenomenon....."


      So your answer is:

      Relevancy is irrelevant - just build links.

      I must agree with you guys! My own experience shows that domain authority plays a bigger part, but not relevancy. Or Angela's backlinks won't work!


      Originally Posted by techinik View Post

      They do help but very less as compared to relevant ones.
      May be, if both had same authority, may be relevant link would help, that would need more test!
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    • Profile picture of the author jazbo
      Did you read my post??

      Originally Posted by techinik View Post

      They do help but very less as compared to relevant ones.
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  • Profile picture of the author mejohn
    Links are links are links are links. They all help build your web reputation.
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    • Profile picture of the author mla16
      Originally Posted by mejohn View Post

      Links are links are links are links. They all help build your web reputation.
      There is no point adding links to sites where they are just going to be removed though??
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      • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
        Originally Posted by mla16 View Post

        There is no point adding links to sites where they are just going to be removed though??
        :confused: Not sure what that comment was directed at. You can add links easily to so-called "irrelevant" sites without getting them removed.
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        • Profile picture of the author mla16
          Originally Posted by thmgoodw View Post

          :confused: Not sure what that comment was directed at. You can add links easily to so-called "irrelevant" sites without getting them removed.
          my point was take a little time to get relevant links, if you post 100 and 10 get deleted then the time you took doing the 10 could have been spent better IMO
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          • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
            Originally Posted by glide21 View Post

            The more I think about backlinks, the less convinced I become. I have no clue how Google's algo works but surely with everyone multiplying their backlinks like rabbits, they are losing value fast. I am convinced that only backlinks that get clicked are counted as anyone can add thousands of irrelevant links easily. This has just dawned on me and I have anecdotal evidence that it works like that. I commented on a high PR site related to Day Trading (one of my blog topics) and the next few days, traffic to my site multiplied. My blog was then added to the high PR site as a 'Related website' via the plugin and again traffic increased dramatically. Hope this helps.
            Testing and testing, hands on and work your way out is the best way to know how Google works.

            There are some basic principle, and links is part of the most important factor in ranking!

            Although what you say about "backlinks that get clicked are counted" is the "ideal" way of counting links, however Google won't know it!

            What Google will do is count all links they "trust" and give certain link juice to those trusted links, and rank whatever page that had the highest value!

            Your blog traffic goes up is not because of organic traffic, but traffic from those authority blogs, and your comment must be eye catching!

            This is pure white hat method, and very powerful if you done it right . However, if you missed the backlink building formula, it may take you longer time to see massive traffic...

            Kok Choon
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by mla16 View Post

        There is no point adding links to sites where they are just going to be removed though??

        Mla I'm sure at some point I will have links that are removed (and maybe already) but so far I have not seen any removed. There are five factors to look for

        A) how many people are using your links and over what amount of time. Hundreds of people using links in a short period of time is like an alarm to web site owners. Find backlinks that aren't being overused. In addition they have MORE PR juice.

        B) Are you getting links that don't discriminate and choose their links properly. Lets face it I dont' care what you sell, Cancer sites for example don't want links to IM products. When I include links I try to be respectful.

        C) Are your backlinks being used by spammers. Sorry there are just too many lack of controls on some lists that Imers use. too many people copying and sharing the links all over the place and no way to slow down spamming. It only takes a few idiots to leave so many links that a website admin decides to make all links on his/her communty sites nofollow or remove them entirely.

        D) Are you using links that are entirely based on ONE software package. An example would be all sites that use kickapps or vbulletin forum software. Sorry but all it takes is for the next version of Vbulletin to make all profile links nofollow and HUNDREDS of your backlinks will fall off the grid. I mix mine although it would be easy to not do so. You need to do the same with your backlinks.

        E) Try and at least find some sites that you WANT to particpate on. Participation in a community will ALWAYS help your links to stick.
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      • Profile picture of the author jazbo
        Thats why you need to look for link packets that are restricted to small numbers of subscribers.

        Originally Posted by mla16 View Post

        There is no point adding links to sites where they are just going to be removed though??
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

          Thats why you need to look for link packets that are restricted to small numbers of subscribers.
          Thats only part of the equation. Whatever links you use have to have some kinds of protection that allow spammers to be weeded out if found. If you've compiled a list (or bought one) and are using it take a look around and see if the links are being circulated on the web.
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          • Profile picture of the author jazbo
            Wow, two product marketers pointing people's eyes down....

            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Thats only part of the equation. Whatever links you use have to have some kinds of protection that allow spammers to be weeded out if found. If you've compiled a list (or bought one) and are using it take a look around and see if the links are being circulated on the web.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

              Wow, two product marketers pointing people's eyes down....

              ????? Merely following up to what you said. I've had these points before I ever had a backlink product

              http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...nterested.html

              So people's eyes down or not I would have said the same thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Ka Hoong
    Backlinks from non-relevant site still help in improving search engine ranking, if the site has high reputation and higher rank, the impact of the backlinks is still there.

    Just ensure the page that links to you has been indexed, then you'll get the link juice.
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    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
      Originally Posted by mla16 View Post

      There is no point adding links to sites where they are just going to be removed though??
      Yes, I agree, just keep your adding links speed a lot greater than losing it, you are safe. Google will think you are spamming when too many links build and lost!
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanRigney22
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    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
      Originally Posted by RyanRigney22 View Post

      It's actually a myth that backlinks only count if from relevant places. A link is a link.

      Do you think that breakthrough news stories, or youtube videos that outrank highly competitive terms were linked to by only relevant places?

      If it's a farting video and it ranked #1 for "fart", I doubt every person taht linked to it had a blog about farting.

      My 2 cents
      Relevant link might count higher? May be in the future? I've yet see it affect much. However, the domain authority does count a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author lalit.burma
    I think you can build your own links with the help of free top platform such as squidoo, hub or tumblr.

    Add 400 - 500 words and add only two links.
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  • Profile picture of the author sarah_may
    Originally Posted by chini View Post

    Hey im having trouble finding relevant backlinks in a small niche im trying to rank for. Can you still rank well by getting non-relevent links with good PR (e.g. angelas backlinks) and linking them to your blog?

    Or what else do you recommend when trying to get good back links in smaller niches?
    Only relevant links are valuable however they are few. you can also get links fro directory submission, bookmarking classified, article submission but make sure to submit in relevant category.
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  • Profile picture of the author glide21
    The more I think about backlinks, the less convinced I become. I have no clue how Google's algo works but surely with everyone multiplying their backlinks like rabbits, they are losing value fast. I am convinced that only backlinks that get clicked are counted as anyone can add thousands of irrelevant links easily. This has just dawned on me and I have anecdotal evidence that it works like that. I commented on a high PR site related to Day Trading (one of my blog topics) and the next few days, traffic to my site multiplied. My blog was then added to the high PR site as a 'Related website' via the plugin and again traffic increased dramatically. Hope this helps.
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    • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
      Originally Posted by glide21 View Post

      The more I think about backlinks, the less convinced I become. I have no clue how Google's algo works but surely with everyone multiplying their backlinks like rabbits, they are losing value fast. I am convinced that only backlinks that get clicked are counted as anyone can add thousands of irrelevant links easily. This has just dawned on me and I have anecdotal evidence that it works like that. I commented on a high PR site related to Day Trading (one of my blog topics) and the next few days, traffic to my site multiplied. My blog was then added to the high PR site as a 'Related website' via the plugin and again traffic increased dramatically. Hope this helps.
      Upwords of 95% of my backlinks never ever get clicked on, unless google analytics is lying to me In fact, I have sites at the top of google where that number is 100%.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by glide21 View Post

      The more I think about backlinks, the less convinced I become. I have no clue how Google's algo works but surely with everyone multiplying their backlinks like rabbits, they are losing value fast. I am convinced that only backlinks that get clicked are counted as

      Thas pretty much impossible. Google's bots cannot crawl a site and count how many times a link has been clicked on. That information is not stored on a page. You may be convinced but you are wrong.


      I have anecdotal evidence that it works like that. I commented on a high PR site related to Day Trading (one of my blog topics) and the next few days, traffic to my site multiplied.
      Traffic has nothing to do with SERPS as you can get traffic without a search engine

      My blog was then added to the high PR site as a 'Related website' via the plugin and again traffic increased dramatically. Hope this helps.
      Perfectly understandable. You had a higher profile connection to the site through the plugin that placed in you that category. You got more juice than just being a link in a comment. That doesn't count your clicks it gives you a better link from that site. If the webmaster had decided to give you that without anyone clicking on your blog comments the effect would be the same. Its only traffic related because the plugin does that. Its not google counting the clicks. Google cannot monitor all click activities on the web.
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  • Profile picture of the author dburk
    Hi chini,

    Backlinks from totally irrelevant pages won't help you much to rank for your targeted keyword.

    Fortunately, it's probably not as hard as you think to place relevant backlinks. Many sites where you place your links will allow you to add more than just your URL. Often you can add your keyword to the page, and in some cases you may be able to provide the anchor text, which has a great deal of influence on the page relevancy.

    Don't worry about the website, search engines index pages not websites. If you can add content to the page, you can usually make the page relevant for your keyword.

    Naturally you want to be careful and clever in the content you add, so that it is also relevant to the topic of the page, or website. This may prevent the webmaster from deleting your content as spam.
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    • Profile picture of the author jazbo
      So you are going to go against all the evidence to the contrary then from most people here and on other SEO forums, and the experts who analyze data all the time.

      In terms of rankings:

      RELEVANCY IS IRRELEVANT.




      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

      Hi chini,

      Backlinks from totally irrelevant pages won't help you much to rank for your targeted keyword.
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      • Profile picture of the author RedEvo
        It's easy to find sites ranking highly with nothing but irrelevant back links. I think the question is, 'will Google ever 'fix' this?'

        If they do, and they have a team of people with brains the size of planets trying to figure it out, then sites depending on link spam will suffer. If they don't the web will dissapear up its own backside in a cesspool of spam.

        I suppose it depends what you think will happen down the line I'm with Eric Ward on this, if you are using link spam make sure you are using some good stuff as well.

        d
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by RedEvo View Post

          . Eric Ward on this, if you are using link spam make sure you are using some good stuff as well.

          d
          It isn't spam if you participate or look for sites that encourage you to post links. If Google does look for relevancy one day it will be based on the page the link is on and all that anyone will need to do is add relevancy where they added links.
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      • Profile picture of the author dburk
        Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

        So you are going to go against all the evidence to the contrary then from most people here and on other SEO forums, and the experts who analyze data all the time.

        In terms of rankings:

        RELEVANCY IS IRRELEVANT.
        Hi jazbo,

        There are a lot of myths in the SEO business. Many people repeat what they have heard from someone else, and if it gets repeated often enough, many people will come to believe it. And then there is the truth.

        I have analyzed a lot of data and found no evidence that suggests backlinks from irrelevant pages has any direct ranking benefit for a targeted keyword. Where is all this evidence that you imply exists?

        I think a few folks my be confused by the notion of PageRank. Some folks think PR is a major factor in determining your SERP position, clearly it is not. You can build your PR from irrelevant backlinks, but this does little to help you rank for a targeted keyword.

        Additionally, many folks seem to say a website's topic is irrelevant, and to a great extent that is true. Search engines rank web pages not websites. Search engines are generally oblivious to a website's topic. Instead, they focus almost exclusively on your individual page, along with the pages that directly link to it and pages that you directly link to.

        This network of web pages that your page is contained within, is a major factor in determining the relevancy of your page. This web of pages is frequently made up of many pages that are not part of your website, therefore your website topic often has little to do with your page relevancy.

        Search engines sort listings on SERPs by relevancy. Your page's relevancy is determined by the elements contained on your page along with the elements contained on all the pages of the web in which your page is contained. This is not a secret, but how each element is weighted, as a factor in ranking, is a closely guarded secret and this is where all the mysteries lie.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by dburk View Post

          Hi jazbo,

          There are a lot of myths in the SEO business. Many people repeat what they have heard from someone else, and if it gets repeated often enough, many people will come to believe it. And then there is the truth.

          I have analyzed a lot of data and found no evidence that suggests backlinks from irrelevant pages has any direct ranking benefit for a targeted keyword.
          Unfortunately in multiple threads you have been asked for this evidence and refused to provide it so it pretty much falls under your ealrier statement "Many people repeat what they have heard from someone else, and if it gets repeated often enough, many people will come to believe it"

          I guess everyone does that to a certain extent. Kyle has covered this issue in his backlink experiment and has stated he saw no relevance benefit. I however recently have seen some anecdotal evidence that there may be something there but without stringent testing and putting all the cards on the table stating that relevancy is important without any hard proof is empty.

          There are piles of backlinks I discard every week because they don't allow anchor text. I'm hoping to use some of them with KKchoon in our joint study later this month.
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          • Profile picture of the author dburk
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Unfortunately in multiple threads you have been asked for this evidence and refused to provide it so it pretty much falls under your ealrier statement "Many people repeat what they have heard from someone else, and if it gets repeated often enough, many people will come to believe it"

            I guess everyone does that to a certain extent. Kyle has covered this issue in his backlink experiment and has stated he saw no relevance benefit. I however recently have seen some anecdotal evidence that there may be something there but without stringent testing and putting all the cards on the table stating that relevancy is important without any hard proof is empty.

            There are piles of backlinks I discard every week because they don't allow anchor text. I'm hoping to use some of them with KKchoon in our joint study later this month.
            Hi Mike,

            I have provided evidence, but some folks can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. I'm sure you know, nothing is ever proven to be absolutely true in science, it can only be ruled out by evidence. Every search you have ever performed on Google provides evidence. There is no need to conduct an experiment to obtain data. We are swimming in data provided by each and every SERP.

            The evidence is abundant that links from irrelevant pages provide little or no direct benefit in SERP ranking. If it did, then we would see the top SERP listings dominated by a handful of web pages with high PageRank. Fortunately for search engine users, we find the most relevant pages are ranked higher regardless of PageRank.

            While we can indirectly benefit from backlinks from irrelevant pages, we must provide a relevant intermediary page that will pass this influence which is weighted by the PageRank of the linking page.

            I suspect the reason you have discarded backlinks that "don't allow anchor text" is because you have learned that without making the page relevant to your keyword, there is little influence in getting ranked for that keyword. That is an astute observation.

            The fundamental technologies used by search engines is not a secret. The information that search engines try to keep secret is the precise methods they use to weight various factors within their algorithm. If you study the well documented methods used by search engines it will remove much of the mysteriousness that seems to foster wild speculation and ridiculous theories.

            People often get confused by the relevance of the "topic of a website". Search engines do not even try to determine the "topic of a website". Instead they look at the web in which the page is included. That "web" is made up of the pages that are linked to and from the target page. The relevance of that web has a significant influence on your target page's relevancy score. That is why having a lot of relevant pages link to yours has such a beneficial effect on your SERP ranking.

            The goal of the search engines is the same as the users, to find the most relevant pages. And when there are many pages of equal relevance, they are sorted in order of importance determined by the search engines algorithm. The relevance and size of the web in which the page exists determines the importance, and in part the relevance of that page.

            The importance of a page is only a consideration when there are other equally relevant pages in the index. All you need to outrank an opponent is a higher relevancy score.

            It requires more effort, in my opinion, to try to outrank a competitor with backlinks from irrelevant pages. Sure, you can use a relevant intermediary page to pass influence, but it is greatly diminished from the benefit of a relevant direct link. If done properly it can still be an effective strategy, however many folks do not understand the proper method to exploit this and are left wondering why they are not benefiting as much as expected.

            I am confident in my own analysis of the abundant evidence that is available to us all in the readily available SERPs. I'm willing to share some of my insights with the members of this forum. I have no obligation to provide you with all of my research methods and I believe you are wrong to attack my methods which you know nothing about.

            I have tried to discuss this with you, but you seem intent on trying to discredit me. You have offered absolutely no evidence of anything that contradicts my analysis. You have only speculated as to my methods and criticized your own speculations. You can choose to believe whatever you like and feel free to tell lies if you must, just leave me out of it.

            Why not bring some evidence of your own to this discussion? I suspect it is because you have none and are simply attacking me because that is all you can do when you are not in possession of any facts on the subject.

            There is no need to conduct an experiment since we have abundant data, thanks to Google, available at our fingertips. Why not dive in and analyze this data and share with us your own conclusions?

            I have searched for evidence of a page that has ranked high for a keyword based on backlinks from irrelevant pages. I have found none. I have asked the members of this forum if they could provide an example of a page that ranked well based exclusively on backlinks from irrelevant pages and not even a single example has been produced.

            I think it is safe to say that if it is extremely rare if not impossible to rank a page for a keyword based on backlinks from irrelevant pages. While we can never prove something absolutely true in science, we can rule out the likeliness of ranking a page for a keyword based on backlinks from irrelevant pages by examining the ample evidence provided by the SERPs we examine every day.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Don when you provide a single tree I'll consider then the possibility of it being lost in the forest.

              I'm not the one making claims of having proof for a dogmatic statement. What little proof you have presented has been weak enough it can't be considered proof. Of course pages that are not optimized on page will not rank high for a keyword. You gave a glimpse at your proof by I believe citing why IBM wasn't ranking for dog training (or something pretty close to that) completely ignoring on page SEO factors

              I have asked the members of this forum if they could provide an example of a page that ranked well based exclusively on backlinks from irrelevant pages and not even a single example has been produced.
              More than one person has provided you examples and then you just go on in another thread claiming you didn't get them or claiming you can make the non relevant links actually relevant. This was even brought up in kyle'es experiment thread . I asked him directly about it and he indicated that he saw very little no difference based on relevance.


              I suspect the reason you have discarded backlinks that "don't allow anchor text" is because you have learned that without making the page relevant to your keyword, there is little influence in getting ranked for that keyword. That is an astute observation.
              No one has ever denied that having anchor text helps. Please don't attempt to cloud the issue. I don't in fact throw out all the backlink sites that don't have anchor text just many. If I got a high PR7 , PR8, PR9 site I'll still use and recommend others to use it. There is ZERO evidence that PR does not flow over a link that isn't relevant. None. and there is plenty of evidence that a HIGH PR site will outrank and lower PR site if all other things are equal.
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              • Profile picture of the author dburk
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Don when you provide a single tree I'll consider then the possibility of it being lost in the forest.

                I'm not the one making claims of having proof for a dogmatic statement. What little proof you have presented has been weak enough it can't be considered proof. Of course pages that are not optimized on page will not rank high for a keyword. You gave a glimpse at your proof by I believe citing why IBM wasn't ranking for dog training (or something pretty close to that) completely ignoring on page SEO factors
                Hi Mike,

                You should have taken a closer look at that example. The page I provided was indeed relevant for dog training. I provided this as an example to demonstrate that even a high PR domain isn't sufficient to rank a relevant page in a competitive market. This example allows us to rule out the theory that having a high PR domain is powerful enough to help outrank other pages in a competitive market. I chose a page from IBM because it is an old domain with a great deal of authority.

                This seems logical because otherwise search engines like Google would top rank a handful of the same large websites for nearly every term. We wouldn't need a search engine to find these pages, we would just go straight to one of those large popular websites. So while domain authority may be a factor, it's likely a relatively small factor in the algorithm.

                Conversely, links from relevant pages would tend to validate the importance of a page for the targeted term, and this would be a strong signal to the search engines.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                More than one person has provided you examples and then you just go on in another thread claiming you didn't get them or claiming you can make the non relevant links actually relevant. This was even brought up in kyle'es experiment thread . I asked him directly about it and he indicated that he saw very little no difference based on relevance.
                To date, I have examined each sample provided (only one from this forum) and all have been pages with many relevant backlinks. In each case the pages all had numerous relevant backlinks along with some irrelevant backlinks. So far, no pages ranking well with exclusively irrelevant backlinks.

                I can understand how people would want to think that all that effort wasn't wasted. But I cannot find any evidence that suggest that it was useful for ranking their keyword for a targeted term in the SERP. Can you?

                As I asserted earlier in this thread, there is virtually unlimited data to examine within the SERP, which is available to all. If you really want to test this theory, compile a a keyword list large enough to be statistically valid. Use whatever tool you prefer to pull backlink data and tell me what you find. I have already done this for a client that commissioned the study. The client's study was used internally, and while I cannot share the study I am aware of the results.

                I'm not the first person to study this theory and I'm not aware of anyone who has found evidence of a page outranking competitors with backlinks from totally irrelevant pages. It's this lack of evidence that allows me to rule out backlinks from irrelevant pages as a direct factor in ranking SERP. Since I have not found any outliers, I can conclude that it is extremely rare if not impossible to use backlinks from irrelevant pages to rank for a competitive term.

                Feel free to disagree, but can you find a single example of anecdotal evidence that contradicts my conclusions?

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                No one has ever denied that having anchor text helps. Please don't attempt to cloud the issue. I don't in fact throw out all the backlink sites that don't have anchor text just many. If I got a high PR7 , PR8, PR9 site I'll still use and recommend others to use it. There is ZERO evidence that PR does not flow over a link that isn't relevant. None. and there is plenty of evidence that a HIGH PR site will outrank and lower PR site if all other things are equal.
                I'm sorry I didn't intend to "cloud the issue". I agree with your assertion that PR (PageRank) does indeed flow from irrelevant backlinks. However, PR of the targeted page is not a significant factor in how that page is ranked. As you indicated, it is only used as a tie breaker. All that is necessary to outrank a higher PR page is to have the smallest increment of higher relevancy and PR won't make a difference. A single backlink from a relevant page will trump the higher PR.

                It's important to make the distinction between PR and SERP ranking, which are not the same thing. You can have a very high PR, and domain authority, yet rank poorly or not at all for a targeted keyword. The page with the highest relevancy seems to always outrank PR, and backlinks play a role in influencing relevancy if they are from relevant pages.

                What continues to be missing from our discussions is any evidence that supports the theory that backlinks from irrelevant pages will help you to rank for a targeted keyword. Where's that evidence?
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                • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
                  Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                  To date, I have examined each sample provided (only one from this forum) and all have been pages with many relevant backlinks. In each case the pages all had numerous relevant backlinks along with some irrelevant backlinks. So far, no pages ranking well with exclusively irrelevant backlinks.

                  C'mon, no one is going to go out and specifically pick up irrelevant backlinks. When someone says they are getting backlinks without looking for "relevant" links, that does not mean they are specifically looking for irrelevant links. It simply means that they aren't picking and choosing links.

                  What I do is I pick up backlinks that are not chosen for their relevancy. Therefore, the links will have both relevant and non-relevant backlinks in them.

                  I'm still not sure how we determine what is relevant and what is not relevant, but that is a different point/issue.

                  If I have 100 profile backlinks to put up, do you think i'm going to waste my time to specifically pick out the ones that are not relevant? I don't even think you could, but that's another story.

                  The question is, could the site conceivable rank where it is if the irrelevant links are not counted by Google, and not whether the site has any "relevant" backlinks at all.

                  As for my example, the vast majority were dealing with obscure topics like hamsters and what not, so if those sites are relevant for a site on internet marketing, than 95% of all links will be relevant.

                  I think with my site it would be impossible to rank well without significant value being assigned by google to the irrelevant links.
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                • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
                  Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                  What continues to be missing from our discussions is any evidence that supports the theory that backlinks from irrelevant pages will help you to rank for a targeted keyword. Where's that evidence?
                  No site is going to have 100% irrelevant backlinks (unless it has zero backlinks). Again, I don't see how it would be possible for the site I posited earlier could be ranking for the term it does based solely on relevant links.
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                  • Profile picture of the author dburk
                    Originally Posted by thmgoodw View Post

                    No site is going to have 100% irrelevant backlinks (unless it has zero backlinks). Again, I don't see how it would be possible for the site I posited earlier could be ranking for the term it does based solely on relevant links.
                    Hi Tom,

                    While the site you provided did indeed have a number of backlinks from irrelevant pages, it also had many backlinks from relevant pages as well. In my opinion, you would rank just as well if you had not placed any of those irrelevant links.

                    Most pages that have a lot of backlinks contain keywords they do not rank highly for, even though they have plenty of backlinks from pages that are not relevant. If backlinks from irrelevant pages count the same as relevant backlinks, how come they don't rank high for every single keyword on the page? The only explanation is that makes sense is that backlinks from irrelevant pages do not influence SERP rankings.

                    If backlinks from irrelevant pages did have an influence, then large websites with lots of backlinks would outrank every other site that had lower PR for every single keyword they prominently include. But when we examine the SERP we do not find that to be true. Page's with fewer links that are more relevant generally outrank all those other pages with higher PR and no relevant backlinks.

                    One of the reasons that profile pages can be powerful in helping you to rank for your targeted keyword is that you get to create some of the content on that page. If you create a page that is relevant to your targeted keyword then you have yourself a backlink from a relevant page.

                    If the website, where you create your profile, structures their internal links to point to your profile then some of their PR will pass to that page. This PR gives a corresponding weight to the power of the link to influence your own page's relevancy score. That is why many folks seek high PR domains to get that extra weight from the PR that is often passed to your profile page.
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                    • Profile picture of the author thmgoodw
                      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                      Hi Tom,

                      While the site you provided did indeed have a number of backlinks from irrelevant pages, it also had many backlinks from relevant pages as well. In my opinion, you would rank just as well if you had not placed any of those irrelevant links.

                      Most pages that have a lot of backlinks contain keywords they do not rank highly for, even though they have plenty of backlinks from pages that are not relevant. If backlinks from irrelevant pages count the same as relevant backlinks, how come they don't rank high for every single keyword on the page? The only explanation is that makes sense is that backlinks from irrelevant pages do not influence SERP rankings.

                      They dont' rank high for every single keyword on the page because they don't have the necessary backlinks coming in with the appropriate anchor text and they are almost always not SEO'd for that word (title tag, header tag, etc.). If IBM has one page optimized for the word "warrior forum", and then had sufficient backlinks coming into it with the anchor text "warrior forum", even if all of the backlinks come from sites about hamsters, then that page on IBM would rank well for warrior forum.

                      As for my site, almost every other page/site on the first page had much more (like 3-4X times) the number of total backlinks that I had at that time. Most of them had the vast majority of their links coming from internet marketing related sites (unlike me). Yet, my much smaller number of backlinks (of which it seems to me were mostly irrelevant -- i would like to see what you think are relevant and what are not), was able to match up with these sites. I just think it is impossible for my site to rank where it does without considerable value being attributed to these irrelevant links.

                      If you want to email me which sites are irrelevant to internet marketing according to you, I would be more than happy to prove that I can get a site ranking with only those backlinks. But, if I don't know what you think is relevant or not relevant, that would be very hard to do.

                      What if I gave you a list of like 500 sites (all profile backlink sites). Could you I give you a keyword and you send back to me which of those sites would be irrelevant so I can get the new site to rank?
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                      • Profile picture of the author dburk
                        Originally Posted by thmgoodw View Post

                        They dont' rank high for every single keyword on the page because they don't have the necessary backlinks coming in with the appropriate anchor text and they are almost always not SEO'd for that word (title tag, header tag, etc.). If IBM has one page optimized for the word "warrior forum", and then had sufficient backlinks coming into it with the anchor text "warrior forum", even if all of the backlinks come from sites about hamsters, then that page on IBM would rank well for warrior forum.

                        As for my site, almost every other page/site on the first page had much more (like 3-4X times) the number of total backlinks that I had at that time. Most of them had the vast majority of their links coming from internet marketing related sites (unlike me). Yet, my much smaller number of backlinks (of which it seems to me were mostly irrelevant -- i would like to see what you think are relevant and what are not), was able to match up with these sites. I just think it is impossible for my site to rank where it does without considerable value being attributed to these irrelevant links.

                        If you want to email me which sites are irrelevant to internet marketing according to you, I would be more than happy to prove that I can get a site ranking with only those backlinks. But, if I don't know what you think is relevant or not relevant, that would be very hard to do.

                        What if I gave you a list of like 500 sites (all profile backlink sites). Could you I give you a keyword and you send back to me which of those sites would be irrelevant so I can get the new site to rank?
                        Hi Tom,

                        Again website topics are largely ignored by search engines in favor of page relevance. A page can be about something very different from a given website topic and this is likely the reason search engines ignore site topics.

                        The advantage of profile pages is that you get to add at least some of the content and you can easily make that page relevant to your targeted keyword with your added content. If you fail to add any relevant content you are not helping your page to rank with that irrelevant backlink.

                        It is bad advice to tell folks that backlink relevance doesn't matter. You can get all the backlinks you want, but if they are on pages that are not relevant then they are not helping you to rank for your targeted keyword. Sometimes all that is necessary to make page relevant is to use your keyword in the anchor text.

                        The first thing a person should learn about SEO is that search engines rank web pages not websites. If you don't understand this fundamental concept it can lead to a lot of bad assumptions. Neither your own website topic nor the topic of the websites where you place your backlinks are considered by search engines. However the page relevance, and the relevance of the pages that you link to and from, are essential factors in ranking your page.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                  Hi Mike,

                  You should have taken a closer look at that example. The page I provided was indeed relevant for dog training.
                  Like I said before thats kind of twilight zone Dburk. An IBM support site is not optimized on page or content for "dog training". Its not going to rank for the term not because it doesn't have relevant links but because it doesn't have on page content. Thats crazy talk. You cannot cite the fact that IBM does not rank for "dog training" as an example. Rather than get into this all over again heres the link where I debunked that in post 214.

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...pen-you-5.html
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                  • Profile picture of the author dburk
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Like I said before thats kind of twilight zone Dburk. An IBM support site is not optimized on page or content for "dog training". Its not going to rank for the term not because it doesn't have relevant links but because it doesn't have on page content. Thats crazy talk. You cannot cite the fact that IBM does not rank for "dog training" as an example. Rather than get into this all over again heres the link where I debunked that in post 214.

                    http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...pen-you-5.html
                    Hi Mike,

                    I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are not taking into account a basic fundamental concept. Search engines rank web pages, not websites.

                    I did not provide a website in my example, I provided a web page. A web page that indeed ranks for the keyword I provided when doing a site restricted search. So that page is indeed relevant to the keyword, according to Google. Furthermore, you can verify this by entering the URL into Google's keyword tool.

                    What that page lacks is backlinks from relevant pages. Website topics have nothing to do with rankings. It's the links to and from a page that are important regardless of which site they are on.

                    This explains why sites like Wikipedia have so many pages that ranked so well. Look at how they structure internal and external links. You may notice that in all cases, it's the relevant page that ranks, not the homepage. That is because search engines rank web pages, not websites.

                    If you really think you have "debunked" my assertion then you may have truly entered... The Twilight Zone.

                    It seems to me that you must take what I have said out of context before you can debunk it. I agree, what I have said should not be taken out of context and I appreciate your debunking of any out of context applications.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                      Hi Mike,

                      I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are not taking into account a basic fundamental concept. Search engines rank web pages, not websites.

                      I did not provide a website in my example, I provided a web page.
                      The ole duck and weave again?

                      No I was talking about pages of which websites are made and said page several times if you look

                      No, NO and NO. On page SEO is not just a matter of having a keyword on a site prominent or not. Google analyzes the whole page including the URl , the title of the pages, the placement of related words etc. THAT IS the reason why a site with High PR will rank below a low PR for a term. In Google's estimation (right or wrong) the overall CONTENT is more in keeping with the search term..........So in your dog training example even if Google sees a title like "dog training software" on IBM's support page and everything else on the page is about computer support Google is likely to pass over it for a low PR page that is really about dog training, has more on the page about that subject and uses related terms. That factor has absolutely nothing to do with relevant or ireelevant backlinks. This is BASIC SEO stuff Dburk.
                      My gooodness me - What was that about missing the forest for the trees?

                      So you are right you not only could be wrong you are wrong again.
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                      • Profile picture of the author dburk
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        The ole duck and weave again?

                        No I was talking about pages of which websites are made and said page several times if you look



                        My gooodness me - What was that about missing the forest for the trees?

                        So you are right you not only could be wrong you are wrong again.
                        And not once have you used the word "page" here for the context we are discussing. You bolded up the word "page" all over but not once did you use it in the context of ranking, Instead you use website or sites when referring to ranking.

                        If you use it this way in your writing I can only assume it is how you think of it. If you start thinking of search engines ranking pages, rather than websites you may have what is known as a paradigm shift.
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  • Profile picture of the author palobrian
    a backlink that is non-targeted is better than no backlink at all in my opinion. Even if they only help 1/10th as much it still adds up over time!
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  • Profile picture of the author jejohnelbert662
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author HCLee
      On the question of how good irrelevant links are, I had the good fortune to ask an SEO Specialist and he says:

      "Well, when you talk about PR6 to PR9, even devalued because of irrelevancy, there's still hell lot of link juice passing through. Even if a PR9 only valued at PR6-7 that's still bound to bring some value."
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      Electric Foot Warmers -End your cold feet days now.
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      • Profile picture of the author jusin
        According to me I think it is like if your site is getting non relevant backlinks then I dont find there should be any problem there as, if you are getting relevant backlinks then it is more good for the site.

        Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I think the "relevance" of a back link is the anchor text that you use in it. I don't think the search engines really pay a whole lot of attention to the niche of the site that it is on. I didn't say that they pay no attention, just that they pay little attention. Other wise, how would people have such good results using Angela's and the other lists that are so popular?
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    Tim Pears

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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      I think the "relevance" of a back link is the anchor text that you use in it. I don't think the search engines really pay a whole lot of attention to the niche of the site that it is on. I didn't say that they pay no attention, just that they pay little attention. Other wise, how would people have such good results using Angela's and the other lists that are so popular?
      Hi Tim,

      The anchor text used in outbound links has a strong influence on a page's relevancy score. That is why you should use your keyword as the anchor text whenever it makes since to do so.

      As I mentioned in my previous reply, profile pages can be effective since you are able to create much of the content on those pages. Therefore you can make those pages relevant to your targeted keyword. Some people understand this, including Angela, and make good use of it. However, if you don't follow her instuctions you could be wasting your time.

      I agree with: "I don't think the search engines really pay a whole lot of attention to the niche of the site that it is on." The first rule of SEO is that search engines rank web pages, not websites. So, the relevance of the pages that link to and from your page are of paramount importance, while the topic of the "site" is not.

      The primary benefit of links from relevant website topics is the direct link traffic is more targeted. Search engines are not bound by sites, instead they look at the web your page is contained within, therefore site topics never enter the equation.
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  • Profile picture of the author SamBogdon
    If you've the money buy a link building solution. Takes 5 minutes and will get your thousands of Back links to your site. Use "Hahn" for coupon code and get 30% at ArticleDirectMarketing.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    If backlinks from irrelevant pages did have an influence, then large websites with lots of backlinks would outrank every other site that had lower PR for every single keyword they prominently include. But when we examine the SERP we do not find that to be true.
    No, NO and NO. On page SEO is not just a matter of having a keyword on a site prominent or not. Google analyzes the whole page including the URl , the title of the pages, the placement of related words etc. THAT IS the reason why a site with High PR will rank below a low PR for a term. In Google's estimation (right or wrong) the overall CONTENT is more in keeping with the search term.

    So in your dog training example even if Google sees a title like "dog training software" on IBM's support page and everything else on the page is about computer support Google is likely to pass over it for a low PR page that is really about dog training, has more on the page about that subject and uses related terms. That factor has absolutely nothing to do with relevant or ireelevant backlinks. This is BASIC SEO stuff Dburk.
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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      No, NO and NO. On page SEO is not just a matter of having a keyword on a site prominent or not. Google analyzes the whole page including the URl , the title of the pages, the placement of related words etc. THAT IS the reason why a site with High PR will rank below a low PR for a term. In Google's estimation (right or wrong) the overall CONTENT is more in keeping with the search term.

      So in your dog training example even if Google sees a title like "dog training software" on IBM's support page and everything else on the page is about computer support Google is likely to pass over it for a low PR page that is really about dog training, has more on the page about that subject and uses related terms. That factor has absolutely nothing to do with relevant or ireelevant backlinks. This is BASIC SEO stuff Dburk.
      Hi Mike,

      It's obvious that you did not even look at the page. Again you keep referring to website rankings. Search engines rank web pages, not websites. That page does indeed include content about dog training. Again, I included that particular example to demonstrate the limited power of domain authority. What say you about the other two examples? I included three examples which varied in site relevance, from very little to very high.

      The most basic SEO concept is that search engines rank web pages not websites. That seems to be at the root of our primary contention.

      The argument that I hear people make, I assume you are in that camp, is that since the website topic relevance doesn't matter, then why should I care if may backlinks are on pages that are not relevant. A website and a web page are two different things. Website topics don't matter to search engines, web pages and the links to and from that page matter a great deal to search engines.

      Do you even agree with the fundamental concept that search engines rank web pages, not websites?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        Hi Mike,

        It's obvious that you did not even look at the page. Again you keep referring to website rankings.
        I referred to website rankings because PAGES are located on websites. When someone says that Adobe is PR 9 everyone knows that all the pages are not PR 9. Trying to pretend that I don't know pages are ranked instead of sites really should be beneath you. Its just obvious diversion and straw manufacturing. I've now bolded where I referred to pages several times but you of course have to insist an continuing a strawman argument and it is a CLASSIC strawman argument.

        Thats why its pointless to go on with you again for pages. Faced with evidence I WAS referring to pages you just keep going on as if the evidence isn't right in front of you - LITERALLY (and now even bolded):rolleyes:
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