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Myth Busted? - NO Seo Magic For Wordpress.

by Mike Anthony
59 replies
  • SEO
    • |
As I continue a series of tests on a new domain and site I just recently moved the site from Wordpress to straight HTML/CSS.

People have repeatedly stated that Google likes Wordpress in particular. I kept most of the content but some changes were made. However the tags remained the same in terms of the keywords and related words and I simply moved over the articles.

Interestinlgy for practical reasons (different design) the navigation changed. Result? Google has crawled the new site and updated the index with text from the new site and the page DID NOT budge. It ranks in the same position.


It has the same 30 backlinks that catapulted it onto the front page and it has most of the same content - the lack of wordpress has no discernable effect on the results.

As I suspected Content determined the positition. Once you understand on page SEO principles (keyword placement in title, long urls, Page title, other headers etc) the use of wordpress or not is a small insignificant matter.

I like Wordpress just like the next guy but it is entirely too overrated. If you know HTML and your site is not very large there are actually big benefits of not using a CMS. You don't have to fight with it to put things exactly where you want or add features to attract visitors and it loads faster which is now a known SEO factor.
#busted #magic #myth #seo #wordpress
  • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    I like Wordpress just like the next guy but it is entirely too overrated. If you know HTML and your site is not very large there are actually big benefits of not using a CMS.
    I agree with you, especially when in comes to smaller niche sites. About 70% of my niche sites are semi-static HTML/PHP scripts, not WP.

    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    it loads faster which is now a known SEO factor.
    I'm still wondering about how important this one will be. While I think that you may get dinged a bit if your pages take 30 seconds to load, I'm concerned that people will start wasting their time with useless tweaking because their page loads in .38 seconds rather than .32 seconds.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by bgmacaw View Post

      I agree with you, especially when in comes to smaller niche sites. About 70% of my niche sites are semi-static HTML/PHP scripts, not WP.
      Yep. I scratch my head sometimes on how Wordpress became so dominant. You'd think developers would have come up with just as easy interfaces before WP could have had such a hold. Can anyone tell me outside of the ease of adding content what feature Wordpress has out of the box that is so essential besides commenting? and thats not even essential for most money sites.


      "While I think that you may get dinged a bit if your pages take 30 seconds to load, I'm concerned that people will start wasting their time with useless tweaking because their page loads in .38 seconds rather than .32 seconds.
      Yeah, I think it only comes into play when the wait is just too long. Noticeably . I doubt seriously shaving off some milliseconds is going to get you ranked higher. Incidentally if you do have a slow wordpress setup getting litespeed hosting does the trick. really spiffs things up (although there are other things you can do).
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      • Profile picture of the author paulgl
        I was already a fan of bgmacaw.

        Mike Anthony, you're scratching my itch lately!

        I don't really do niche sites, but have never understood this
        love affair in general with WP. When I do domains, I never
        would ever think WP. I do html/php hand coded.

        I use WP for blogs only, but now feel that blogpsot
        is much better for that. My blogspot ones rank so much
        higher in google. I have switched 2 over to blogspot and
        they rock. I can credit this to no other reason than google.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Can anyone tell me outside of the ease of adding content what feature Wordpress has out of the box that is so essential besides commenting?
        I think that is the big thing, that it makes it simple for just about anyone to setup and manage a 'pretty' website. The ability to change themes, add plugins and so forth demystifies the process for people who're less programming savvy.

        Other than that, there's the built in pinging and RSS which can help with faster indexing of new content although this can be done manually or in a standalone script as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author CBSnooper
    I totally agree with you Mike. I use wordpress, but have set up sites using wordpress templates as a guide, but coding it HTML and it has ranked as well as a wordpress site would have done.

    I think the reason why WP has become so dominant is that it is a doddle to throw up a site with a nice theme, that is also SEO friendly. Because it does everything 'right' in Googles eyes (your tags etc), people think Google loves WP. I bet if you hand craft a site that does everything 'right' too, it will get just as much love.

    Now there's an experiment for someone....
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by CBSnooper View Post

      I bet if you hand craft a site that does everything 'right' too, it will get just as much love.

      Now there's an experiment for someone....

      Drats. I thought that was what I did.
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      • Profile picture of the author CBSnooper
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Drats. I thought that was what I did.
        I'm half asleep :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author Marakatapolis
          I use wordpress because coding bores me to tears and I don't miss the hours of pulling my hair out and throwing my PHP manual across the room.

          I enjoy graphic design much better and with WP I can skip all the annoying programming crap.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Can anyone tell me outside of the ease of adding content what feature Wordpress has out of the box that is so essential besides commenting? and thats not even essential for most money sites.
            I can think of three...

            1. It's free.

            2. Most people have one-click installs via Fantastico.

            3. It absolves them of any need to learn what's under the hood, so to speak. Add a theme and a handful of plugins, and they're off to the races.

            I think that's why you have people advising others to go through all the rigamarole of setting up and maintaining a database, keeping up with security updates, and so on just to put up a one-page squeeze page site or even a multiple page site using only pages instead of posts.

            If I want something quick and dirty, I'll go with a set of templates from someplace like Open Source Web Design - Download free web design templates. and edit them with TextPad. Mostly for the same reasons - I don't want to mess with the maintenance and the overhead...
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Yeah. I think we all know the reason why Worpdress is so popular among those that don't know any coding. Never any doubt about that. As I read it and see it it all comes down to the ease with which you can put up content.

              What I was wondering out loud is why one fairly bland pice of software has stopped other developers from building something better.

              The minute you want to put something exactly where you want it or add a feature to Wordpress thats where the trouble begins. Sure there are plugins but again you have nowhere near the freedom you have with straight coded page.

              I think this is one of the reasons why people have problem with getting links naturally through linkbait. Wordpress right now is great at putting up text and images (and can handle videos in the right places) but people don't link to text like they used to.
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              • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                The minute you want to put something exactly where you want it or add a feature to Wordpress thats where the trouble begins. Sure there are plugins but again you have nowhere near the freedom you have with straight coded page.
                I just noticed this and it explains some of your other posts.

                Wordpress can be treated exactly the same as any other html page. You can even access data from outside the loop.

                This is one site I will show you as an example. It isn't that pretty but I created it in a pretty short time frame and uses a lot of features that wordpress doesn't do by default and many aren't aware of.

                Super Yacht Base - Brisbane - Australia

                The structure is pretty common but you can add widgets to any place you like in a wordpress theme. It is just a common layout to have a header, content, sidebar.

                The sidebar changes depending on the page you are on...woopee right?

                The sidebar for the individual member pages are generated from the 1 sidebar widget using calls to the custom_fields for the page (in the theme, not the wordpress base files). This is still pretty basic wordpress integration. The calls are done outside the loop - shows that you can access the data of a post or page anywhere on your site. The sidebars, members directory, find a service pages etc are all created/updated on the fly when a new member page is created. Logos are common throughout the site. The client just makes the one page and the rest of the site is ready to go.

                I use phpzon API on my sites rather than the Wordpress plugin simply because it gives me more power to integrate it anywhere I like in a theme. This would be ideal for that Tiffany site (which does use a CMS btw). I once again use the custom_fields to push variables to the phpzon function. I add the phpzon function call to the template structure so I don't even need to worry about it when I create a post. I use a flag system to show or hide.

                The same principal can be used to change advertising blocks depending on a wordpress category.

                I use my own php functions to create my internal linking structure, making sure each page is interlinked adequately.

                You can do absolutely anything you want with a Wordpress theme, anything that you can do with a straight html/php combination. Wordpress just makes it so much easier to manage your content.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                So people want to stubbornly claim that Wordpress has some magic to what it does fine. Dream on. Meanwhile those of us who have to do SEO for other people will continue to see search results after search results that are dominated by pages that do not use Wordpress.
                It has nothing to do with the engine. Most people know this. Only the newbies claim otherwise but they are usually set straight. I haven't seen experienced webmasters saying it will boost SEO. Wordpress does not negatively effect a sites SEO. It does help newbies create an SEO friendly site though, especially when the site has a reasonable amount of content.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

                  I just noticed this and it explains some of your other posts. [
                  It could only do that if you read what I wrote. If you did you wouldn't have needed to write your last post . I said point blank that you can do any design in wordpress but not without digging in to Php files. What you just wrote confirms that. Read post 43 its right there. Heres a snippet

                  Can I do that in Wordpress? Sure. and you probably can too but not without a really good knowledge of the PHP structure of Wordpress. I can do those layouts in HTML in minutes not so in Wordpress.
                  So I really don't have a clue what you are trying to say here. My point is that getting a nonstandard layout in HTML and CSS is far easier than digging around in wordpress' php template files. Anyone who knows anything about HTML/ CSS knows all you have to do is create and name divs and you can do multiple layouts just by modifiying the CSS. Easy as pie once you know how to do it. Getting wordpress to give you a nonstandard layout requires that you know the same CSS and it requires you to understand the structure of a wordpress template and what php files to modify. You will have to touch multiple files where with a straight HTML page all you need is the page you are working on and the CSS file.

                  I dont' know how many more times I have to tell you that I already know how to do just about any layout with Wordpress . I've done all kinds of magazine and other layouts. You are preaching to the choir. Wordpress is more restrictive than straight HTML just by virtue of having to work within its template structure. Thats just a fact.
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    • Profile picture of the author wildfremd
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      • Profile picture of the author tjcocker
        Originally Posted by wildfremd View Post

        Awesome post Mike. You are 100% correct. As long as you know what you're doing, HTML/CSS sites do rank just fine without wordpress. I have a nice niche site that makes a pretty penny and wordpress never even came into the equation. Thanks for sharing that with everyone.
        Agreed, ranks just fine, if not better. The misconception is that WP has some magic ability that HTML does not. You can easily add RSS and the other secret magic tricks to an HTML site, thus leveling the playing field.

        Where there is no competition WP ranks, but when I compete against a WP site I seem to always win out. I don't claim to understand all the reasons, but even if they have a higher PR I can still out SEO them. Which tells me all things are not equal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Blaze
    The reason so many people use wordpress is because of how quickly you can get a site up, edit content and not need to use notepad, dreamweaver or even the cpanel website editor.

    It's for techno phobes but is built with seo in mind too.

    Now of course there are also the plugins which helps even more with seo such as all in one seo (needs configuring).

    But the main part is based on the theme that it uses and the permalinks (once changed).

    Now regarding indexing and being able to crawl your whole website each page on the basic theme is linked to another and nearly directly to the main page, the recent comments and recent posts widgets mean that those get crawled and indexed even quicker.

    That isn't even touching on the other plugins that you can use to create backlinks with and the ability to have a comment section to keep people coming back instantly without having to go and find and install one on a static site you built.

    If you had a large site and were posting constantly to it then you should notice a difference in the rate of indexing new content (if left naturally)! Plus as they are nearly all interlinked within wordpress that loving link juice will not just be stuck on the one single page and will be 'passed' along to the other pages in your site.

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  • Profile picture of the author Chris_x
    CSS FTW! I still need to experiment with Wordpress, it looks easier....but after this thread, im not too fussed.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    Grab hosting account, one click install using fantastico, upload a theme, drop in content, safe and repeat. Half an hour and you don't have to learn about or even touch code.

    And its free. And has free plugins for EVERYTHING.

    That's why it's dominant.

    While I agree coding yourself makes it easier and more targeted for layout etc, many people are just want their site(s) up quick and to get on with it, and wordpress is the easiest way to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author searchnology
      Agreed!....add to that the easy RSS feeds and compatibility with a myriad of other 3rd party services. WP appeals to the masses and that is the ingredient for any successful product.

      It's hard to duplicate(profitably) the processing power of their open source developer community, though others like Joomala, Drupal etc are close on their heals.

      Like the masses, I don't care about wanting something "exactly" a certain way. I look at my online businesses more as a big picture and how I can accomplish things as easily and quickly as possible. WP helps me do just that.

      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      Grab hosting account, one click install using fantastico, upload a theme, drop in content, safe and repeat. Half an hour and you don't have to learn about or even touch code.

      And its free. And has free plugins for EVERYTHING.

      That's why it's dominant.

      While I agree coding yourself makes it easier and more targeted for layout etc, many people are just want their site(s) up quick and to get on with it, and wordpress is the easiest way to do it.
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      • Profile picture of the author bluelambda
        I think that Wordpress is just a platform. A very easy to use platform that makes putting up a site and maintaining it easy, IMHO.

        I don't believe that Google gives preferential treatment to a site running Wordpress, just because it is running on Wordpress (that would be just silly!). But it's easy to set it up so that it has a good internal linking structure, search engine friendly URLs etc, meta tags, etc.

        I see no reason why a plain XHTML site can't rank just as well if it's properly setup.

        Just a matter of personal preference and whether you like to use a CMS or something more static. I prefer wordpress. You might prefer jooma, drupal, static XHTML. Whatever works for you. No difference for SEO IMHO, just as long as you set it up properly.
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  • Profile picture of the author wechta
    Cmon, Wordpress is just a pltform, wich produces nice on-site seo html code.
    If you do it by hand, it doesnt have any difference - google doesnt mind afocurse...
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  • Profile picture of the author clickbump
    Before I say anything on this, let me say that

    (1) I have a product that's built around WordPress, so I'm real biased.

    (2) I built countless xhtml/css sites by hand before I discovered this "Gift from the Gods" as George Brown refers to it, called WordPress. So I can speak from much experience with respect to the nuances of both approaches (coding by hand vs wordpress).

    All wordpress templates originate by hand. Someone designs them (either purely by hand like I do, or with the aid of a helper program like Dreamweaver) before they are converted to work inside the WP theme system. So its correct to assert that there really should be no inherit WP SEO advantage, all things being equal.

    So, whether you agree that WordPress gives you an SEO advantage or not, the value of the platform goes well beyond that question. And I'll say, with the right coding, it can be your best friend in terms of gaining an SEO advantage over your competition and I've seen this first hand.

    What its allowed me to do is to take everything I used to do by hand, and by transferring that power to WP, I've turbocharged my ability to turn out money making sites by several orders of magnitude.

    But setting that aside for a moment, the fact that you can...

    1) In one click create a new site full of capability and extensibility. What would take you much longer to do by hand, upload to ftp, etc.

    2) With a few clicks, completely change the look and feel of your site without affecting its content, hyperlinks, etc across all your pages and posts, regardless how many.

    3) Instantly search and consume, at no cost in many cases, robust functionality that simply plugs right into your site, for just about any need that you have now or in the future (plug-ins)

    4) Have access to an army of developers, designers and experts who can help you do just about anything you want to do with a website...

    5) Is constantly being updated with new features, enhanced security and stability

    And I could go on, but you get the point perhaps. WordPress is not only a significantly important tool in the arsenal of the IM professional, its dang near indispensable if you use it to anywhere near its full potential for what we do.

    And in the hands of a skilled practitioner who can push its upper limits, it can be truly magical.
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  • Profile picture of the author khtm
    Good experiment, Mike, I completely agree with your analysis.

    I think why most newbs think WordPress is the be-all-end-all is because it comes with idiot-proof SEO plugins. Most people don't know enough about on-page SEO to do this properly with static HTML.

    I think the page load speed factor will become more important as time goes on and search engine bots evolve. Wouldn't be surprised if a new CMS emerged targeted towards internet marketers and had a tiny resource footprint compared to WordPress.
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    • Profile picture of the author clickbump
      Originally Posted by khtm View Post

      I think the page load speed factor will become more important as time goes on and search engine bots evolve. Wouldn't be surprised if a new CMS emerged targeted towards internet marketers and had a tiny resource footprint compared to WordPress.
      Hopefully we can keep this civil as I see there are some strong opinions on both sides.

      In terms of speed, Its largely a factor of the markup that's used in the theme that's being used to present the site. Most themes that you get are way too bloated with garbage markup to account for every little nuanced situation.

      I can take almost any design you can find on marketing style websites and recreate it in about 50 lines of css and my core xhtml layout (which fully validates depending on the post content and is insanely tight). And that's the most complicated ones. I try to get it all done in less than 25 lines for most projects or I feel I'm slacking.

      The answer to all the bloated WP themes that are so prevalent on the web, is a well optimized, meticulously streamlined theme system which is, when compared to the most spartan and streamlined static xhtml/css (and as the owner/founder of a CMS vendor who embraced css/xhtml design long ago, I've created my share of those), comparable in every way, and imminently more maintainable...

      Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love a clean, super fast, well optimized static xhtml/css layout. But once I discovered WP, I couldn't wait to take that knowledge and insert it into an automated system like WP that opens up tons of potential beyond the template.

      Again, just my opinion. And a friendly counter to the premise of the OP :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by clickbump View Post

        Again, just my opinion. And a friendly counter to the premise of the OP :-)
        But alas Clickbump I didn't post a premise. I posted a result. Wordpress showed no benefit form a SEO standpoint. Look I agree with alot of what you say but Yes your selling Wordpress does bias you when you write

        And I could go on, but you get the point perhaps. WordPress is not only a significantly important tool in the arsenal of the IM professional, its dang near indispensable if you use it to anywhere near its full potential for what we do
        I'm sorry thats just false. "dang near indispensable"? Umm no way man. There isn't even ONE single thing that Wordpress does for SEO that someone with HTML knowledge can't do. Nada. Search engines don't even crawl wordpress core files . The core files render the page to be read in html. People in IM can use almost any blog system that suits them as well as Drupal (which is a heavy hitter in big sites), expression engine, or even Joomla.

        I know a bit about wordpress. I must have developed like 20 themes for it in my time so I get it and how popular it is and easy to work with. All true

        However I think wordpress is great for when you want to throw up a site. Adsense affiliate campaign? no brainer. Only going to write articles? Yes of course. The moment however you step past those things and say want to do more than a sales page presentation of a business and give it a nice layout that doesn't scream blog you have to start fiddling with it (or buy a theme where the developer already fiddled with it).

        Thats just a fact.

        I can go from PSD to coded page in under half an hour if I run it through Fireworks to get me the first round of code (CS4 doesn't even spit out absolute position CSS) and everything is EXACTLY where I want it but I'll have to twist and turn in Wordress' files to get a non sidebar layout I want.

        So all I am saying is there ARE some tradeoffs but this thread is really about the SEO benefits and whether Wordpress is favored by search engines. Theres no evidence of that and theres no way anyone can objectively say in a world where most corporations and main line businesses do not use wordpress for their home page that it is near indispensable - especiallly when those sites hold the top spots on the majority of search results.

        Ease of use yes but beyond ease of use there is nothing that is indispensable about it. It isn't even the only solid blog software out there (but definitely the most popular)
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        • Profile picture of the author clickbump
          Mike, good points. I do think there's room for a focused (perhaps at the expense of immense flexibility of WP) solution as you suggest, but I've managed to craft WP into just such a solution that works for me.

          Its certainly perhaps an open question as to whether Google prefers a WP site over a non WP site, but I'll continue to take my chances on rolling with the "Wordpress SEO Magic" myth :-)

          In the spirit of lively debate, I disagree with lots of what you suggest regarding the capabilities of WP, but we'll agree to disagree. I could build sites in a variety of tools, including all the ones you suggest, and I have. I choose to use the best tool available, and for me, that's WordPress hands down.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by clickbump View Post

            Its certainly perhaps an open question as to whether Google prefers a WP site over a non WP site, but I'll continue to take my chances on rolling with the "Wordpress SEO Magic" myth :-)
            Based on what evidence? I don't see where its certainly perhaps (dude that an interesting combination ) an open question. Wheres the evidence that Google cares more about the HTMl that Wordpress puts out over solidly hand coded HTML. There is none and there would have to be at least some evidence for the question to be open - or I guess everything is open.



            I could build sites in a variety of tools, including all the ones you suggest, and I have. I choose to use the best tool available, and for me, that's WordPress hands down.
            Never could and never would disagree with you on what suits you but I responded to what you said for others as it being indispensable to professionals in IM.

            I'm sorry theres is absolutely no way that anyone can credible say that Wordpress is the best tool available to build any IM professionals site. Why?

            It universally known by all theme developers

            A) if you want to break wordpress out of its standard layout you have to dive into the index.php file, the header.php file and sidebar.php file or learn your way around a theme framework that already has done it (Carrington is one of my favorite).

            In straight XHTML I create my divs and put everything where I want it with CSS. If I am even a noob I can do it in expression web or dreamweaver much easier than hacking in the core Worpdress files. Ever seen the face of someone that opens up index.php for the first time?

            B) if you want to add features you have to either find or code a plugin or hack the functions.php file. In fact ALOT of plugins are going to require you to open up php files anyway.

            Right now I have two websites finishing up for my backlink system. One that I need to have a web 2.0 software site look and the other for wholesale resellers where I do a comparison chart and pricing for various options. Theres no way i could get the comparison table I wanted within wordpress without getting into code and thats even if I did find a plugin close enough.

            So yeah what ever floats your boat but for all IMers? Nope.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    It really depends on the size and complexity of the site you want to create. Most affiliates are just creating micro-sites which lack any sort of structure so can be knocked up in HTML/CSS in no time.

    If you create an authority site with even only 50 pages, you are mad to not use some sort of CMS system. The data you can pull from any decent CMS system makes it a piece of cake to provide relevant material for any of your articles to keep the user active on your site.

    These features also make it easier to provide a decent internal link structure. Yes, you can do this manually, but once you have a large number of pages you will begin to neglect certain content because you will forget it even exists. This is where Wordpress shines in SEO.

    Use categories properly and you can add a selection of articles as link options at the bottom of your page to make them more available to both the user and the spiders (think Ezine Articles top article lists). Manging this manually would be a nightmare. Tags also allow you to create more pages for your site. You do need to be clever with this though to make sure they are full of original content.

    You could create your own CMS to do this but you will be spending a lot of time reinventing the wheel. I have used numerous CMS over the years and I have haven't come across something that is as easy to use and as easy to manipulate as WordPress.

    I actually add WordPress to all of my clients sites. I develop the theme for the site like a normal web page and then simply put in the required bits for WordPress integration. The client is extremly happy because they now have a lot of bang for buck and the simply WYSIWYG editor in the backend means they can make simple changes themselves.

    One thing that I do that is similar to what you mentioned is that I use an offline install of wordpress to create my thin sites by simply writing the post in wordpress, view the page and save it as its own HTML page. I then load this to where it is needed and the site is created. This is ideal for Ezinearticle landing pages. I use this rather than going to a complete wordpress install because I want to change the index.php landing page to a redirect after my article is approved...ummm maaaaa.
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  • Profile picture of the author tjcocker
    This is why I create all my sites in HTML. Glad you've seen the light Mike, I've mentioned this in many other threads and few people listen. Thanks for doing the legwork too, seriously.

    If you make micro-niche sites, then make a micro-niche templates in HTML. Most sites take me less than an hour or so to complete, all the pages, SEO and everything. The lack of insight and creativity for wordpress users restricts them. Too bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Guys , guys , guys. (or gals)

    We all know why Wordpress is opular. Its because of its ease of use. I didn't really ask that . I was just wondering out loud why DEVELOPERS didn't create other equally easys ystems that didn't hamper yu the way that Wordpress does.
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    • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Guys , guys , guys. (or gals)

      We all know why Wordpress is opular. Its because of its ease of use. I didn't really ask that . I was just wondering out loud why DEVELOPERS didn't create other equally easys ystems that didn't hamper yu the way that Wordpress does.
      The ease of use is why Wordpress is great for SEO. It makes interlinking/creating a good page structure simple. By default it is better than most amatuer static html site structures. For micro sites and most affiliate sites this is null and void because it isn't hard to manually interlink the site. Doing it for large sites is another story.

      Wordpress is a Content Mangaement System. There are heaps out there if you think it is restrictive. I have used quite a few of them for many years and Wordpress is the easiest to manipulate the way you want.

      I'm not sure how you think it is restrictive? The system is completely open and you can modify it however you like. You can streamline it to the point where the only data it is pulling is the content of the page. This is no different to a custom made php script reading from a MySQL database.

      It isn't the system that makes a page more SEO friendly. It is what the system does to the site. This is where some newbies get confused and the only time I have heard people thinking that Wordpress is what pushes a site up in the SERP. Most of the time these newbies are straightened out within a post or 2. They just need to be made aware that Wordpress makes getting this favourable structure, simple and achievable.

      I noticed you mentioned AJAX/Javascript et al. If you don't want to use these then don't add them to your site. Wordpress doesn't use them by default, only in the backend.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

        I'm not sure how you think it is restrictive? The system is completely open and you can modify it however you like. You can streamline it to the point where the only data it is pulling is the content of the page.
        Fraggler come on. You are not talking to a noob. I've developed lots of themes. You simply cannot for example take a default wordpress installation and create a magazine style layout. Someone has to dive into the index.php file, rework the loop and restructure the page.

        Yes you can go searching for a premium theme that has done this already but the idea that you can put things exactly where you want when you want would be a lie without diving into the files.

        Here direct a newbie on how to duplicate this exact design in Wordpress


        Tiffany & Co. | Home | United States

        Or how about this

        Jewelry from Overstock.com

        Can I do that in Wordpress? Sure. and you probably can too but not without a really good knowledge of the PHP structure of Wordpress. I can do those layouts in HTML in minutes not so in Wordpress.

        Plus I wasn't talking about not using javascript or ajax I was talking about using them on the front end. If you have used Wordpress enough surely your have come across scripts that jut will not work within wordpress due to a confict.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
    I already agree that the WP seo magic is a myth, but if I'm understanding you correctly then your test isn't entirely accurate. If what you have done is taken out wordpress and swapped for static html on the same domain then this isn't a good test, at least not for a while. The serp won't change at the same time it gets re-indexed. It will still be counting all the garbage internal linking that wordpress left behind, they will take longer to be de-indexed.

    Unless something has changed since I did a lot of testing the last year or two on this very thing, then wordpress still beats static for serp positions, not because it's any better but because it creates extra on site linking through it's duplicate pages.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

      Unless something has changed since I did a lot of testing the last year or two on this very thing, then wordpress still beats static for serp positions, not because it's any better but because it creates extra on site linking through it's duplicate pages.
      You can create any kind of navigation or page setup you want in HTML. I really don't get why people are hanging on to this. Don't people understand what happens with Wordpress? Its simple

      Wordpress is a PHP application that puts out HTML code when a page is called. If you think there is something special about Wordpress's navigation and page setup it certainly would not stop you from doing the same thing in HTML which means its not anything that is unique to wordpress. So the idea that a static page is beat by a wordpress page is simply a myth. If theres something in regard to navigation or duplicate pages or whatever you can do the same thing in HTML - any layout you want add any code you want.

      Thats the other thing with Wordpress . With a straight HTML page I dont' have to wonder if Javascript, Ajax, Flash, flex or even added php/asp will work along with it. I know it will.

      As for the experiment the serp has changed. It went up and it went back since then. I rather doubt it will have much effect as you suggest. it was a test site with two posts total.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        You can create any kind of navigation or page setup you want in HTML. I really don't get why people are hanging on to this. Don't people understand what happens with Wordpress? Its simple

        Wordpress is a PHP application that puts out HTML code when a page is called. If you think there is something special about Wordpress's navigation and page setup it certainly would not stop you from doing the same thing in HTML which means its not anything that is unique to wordpress. So the idea that a static page is beat by a wordpress page is simply a myth. If theres something in regard to navigation or duplicate pages or whatever you can do the same thing in HTML - any layout you want add any code you want.

        Thats the other thing with Wordpress . With a straight HTML page I dont' have to wonder if Javascript, Ajax, Flash, flex or even added php/asp will work along with it. I know it will.

        As for the experiment the serp has changed. It went up and it went back since then. I rather doubt it will have much effect as you suggest. it was a test site with two posts total.
        You're side stepping the point. You're arguments are about how myths get created through misinformation. Without the clarification I just made, you are feeding the creation of a new myth by offering incomplete information. From a technical standpoint you are entirely correct and I agree with you, just like I did in my previous reply, nothings changed there but read it how you want to.

        The bottom line is this. Internal linking and extra pages give better serp positions, this is a fact. If people take your post as fact then they will be losing out because many of them do not understand how wordpress works. If they create a fifty page website with static html, they will get fifty pages indexed with fifty links between pages, assuming they internally like a wordpress site would.

        However, a default wordpress installation will not create fifty pages, it will create duplicate pages for categories, tags, login, and others, all adding up to much more than fifty pages. These pages will get indexed and give the illusion of more content, more internal linking, better serp position. Like I said, unless something has changed with Google since I last tested multiple times on more than one domain, this is how it is, no argument, it's just how it is.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

          You're side stepping the point. You're arguments are about how myths get created through misinformation. Without the clarification I just made, you are feeding the creation of a new myth by offering incomplete information.
          Uh huh and then this follows

          However, a default wordpress installation will not create fifty pages, it will create duplicate pages for categories, tags, login, and others, all adding up to much more than fifty pages. These pages will get indexed and give the illusion of more content, more internal linking, better serp position. Like I said, unless something has changed with Google since I last tested multiple times on more than one domain, this is how it is, no argument, it's just how it is.
          The creation of a myth simply because you state its so. No evidence whatsoever. Sorry guy you won't last long in any thread I am involved in. thats just utter nonsense. SO let me tell you how it is. NO argument. Pure common sense and fact

          A) anything that relates to how content ranks you for Google can be Duplicated in HTML. Once again Wordpress spits out straight HTML (geez how often before this sinks in? How can wordpress surpass HTMl when all it does is spit out HTML? absolutely nonsensical). I can duplicate a page in Dreamweaver and create a navigational link in under a second. So even if someone bought your idea that Wordpress fools Google into thinking there is more content the same could be achieved in HTML. Its an absolutely rubbish point.

          I'm not creating a myth. I'm stating common sense even if some people don't get it. Search bots don't parse and execute PHP (that wordpress is written in). That my lad is THE fact. Any illusion you have about a certain repetitive structure getting you juice is therefore all in the output HTML and can be achieved simply by that HTML. So anyone who wants can create it in straight HTML.

          B) As you will hear around here often. Serps rank pages (I submit that the domain also has authority based on links but thats still not duplicate or gibberish content). the idea that you can put up more content on other pages and cause one page to rank higher is nonsense. To get that to float around here you are going to have to put alot more on the table than just saying you did it especially since you are new and no one knows if you know your left foot separate from your right in regard to SEO.

          The "illusion of content" on other pages actually causes your page to rank higher? Do tell us the careful control you put in place in these alleged tests that made you draw that conclusion? Duplicate content at that.

          Oh vey
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  • Profile picture of the author tjcocker
    How are real pages linking to phantom pages if there's not really a page there, and then why would that count for anything? Or if there is, is it just a duplicate of the content from another page? I'm asking because it sounds like a bunch of BS, but I don't really know. Unless you've built hundreds of sites you can't really get a "feel" for what's going on, and even then things will throw you for a loop in certain cases. There are too many variables. Split testing is extremely tricky on a small scale.
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    • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
      Originally Posted by tjcocker View Post

      How are real pages linking to phantom pages if there's not really a page there, and then why would that count for anything? Or if there is, is it just a duplicate of the content from another page? I'm asking because it sounds like a bunch of BS, but I don't really know. Unless you've built hundreds of sites you can't really get a "feel" for what's going on, and even then things will throw you for a loop in certain cases. There are too many variables. Split testing is extremely tricky on a small scale.
      Wordpress creates pages automatically when you make a new tag or category. You can use some different techniques to add unique content to these pages to make your site a lot fuller than what it really is. These dynamically created pages will add internal backlinks to your sites more important pages. Push some links to these pages to further strengthen your other pages.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by tjcocker View Post

      How are real pages linking to phantom pages if there's not really a page there, and then why would that count for anything? Or if there is, is it just a duplicate of the content from another page? I'm asking because it sounds like a bunch of BS,
      It is. There is some truth to what Fraggler says about navigation playing a part in SEO but to claim that the "illusion of content" causes your site to rank?. Theres very little to that.

      Look I recognize where this is coming from. It reminds me of another thread. People have a desire to justify whatever they use. It makes them feel smarter but its only a feeling. The facts are The bots never read underlying PHP code. They read HTMl (and a little of some other stuff). You can achieve anything with the HTML that you can with Wordpress. Pure fact by the nature of what bots read and what Wordpress outputs. Not even debatable unless you have no clue of what goes on with wordpress execution.

      So people want to stubbornly claim that Wordpress has some magic to what it does fine. Dream on. Meanwhile those of us who have to do SEO for other people will continue to see search results after search results that are dominated by pages that do not use Wordpress.

      Many of those sites are ranking because they have installed and use features that attract natural linkbait that the guy running wordpress can't compete with because they don't know how to make it work with Wordpress.

      There is always a tradeoff to simplicity in a CMS especially when it is built primarily for blogging.

      Me? I have no romantic relationship with software. I use Wordpress when I don't need to be unique, don't need to add features to my site and when my content will be all text and images with maybe the occassional video. When I don't want to be constrained I don't use Wordpress anymore. So I use both.
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  • Profile picture of the author firstdandy
    On my own summary, I do use HTML / CSS for mini site and I do use wordpress for bigger and updated website. The main thing for using WP is They get indexed soon in google.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
    Mike, you need to get out of science.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

      Mike, you need to get out of science.
      Thats it. I thought we were about to be dazzled by a new theory that would get us all on the first page for every wordpress install we ever did in the future simply by adding additional pages to our domains?
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
    The problem is you're purely argumentative. You refuse to listen to reason and you read only what you want to hear. I have not disagreed with you once and yet you insist I am saying you are wrong. I have simply clarified something in addition to what you are saying which is important for those who read this, who don't understand your argument. Not everyone is a techy and that's how myths start. All you are proving here is your incapability to hold a constructive argument.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Wilson Lets not go on. I have disagreed with your premise on several occasions. Yes you claim to agree in one sentence but then go on to express the magic of Wordpress duplicate content structure. We totally disagree on this "illusion of content" causing you site to rank in the serps. If you can't see tht disagreement then theres no point. You just are not reading.

    Science isnt whatever you claim it to be. Thats just as you would say argumentatitve.


    Peace out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
      I think there isn't any advantage to simply the code on each page.

      There is however an advantage in having an RSS feed that can be submitted to directories and having every post pinged automatically for you.

      While you can set up systems using HTML code alone to do these Wordpress has these functions built in.

      It will probably be almost impossible to say that ABC is better than XYZ because it's impossible to actually compare the two side by side. There are too many variables going on at one time to make a real difference. I think it would be near impossible to show that a page would have been ranked on the first page on a search engine as opposed to page 3 simply because of the engine that the site was built with alone as the only difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Wilson Lets not go on. I have disagreed with your premise on several occasions. Yes you claim to agree in one sentence but then go on to express the magic of Wordpress duplicate content structure. We totally disagree on this "illusion of content" causing you site to rank in the serps. If you can't see tht disagreement then theres no point. You just are not reading.

      Science isnt whatever you claim it to be. Thats just as you would say argumentatitve.


      Peace out.
      Mike, I'm not here to argue with you. No insults, and please stop picking out single quotes and making a big deal out of them. If you want to be constructive then why can't you take my word that I'm not disagreeing and use that as a premise to question my choice of words prior to attacking them. Granted, "illusion of content" isn't a good choice of words, but so what, why not simply ask me to clarify before reading it as literal. I'm not proof reading as I go and that isn't a crime in a forum. That's the whole point of reasoning, to clarify things and narrow them down to get consistent results. A test isn't worth the paper it's written on if any inconsistency, badly worded or not, is flat out ignored.

      As far as I am concerned, your argument is solid, I don't dispute it now and I didn't dispute it when I tested myself. But if you want to pick on choice of words then I should accuse you of using "wordpress" within your argument, because it will mislead those that don't know the difference. What you are arguing here is dynamic pages vs static html and how Wordpress handles php (which might be a wrong choice of words but right now I can't think of a better way of saying it, it's not up for debate, it's only open for clarification). This has nothing to do with what Wordpress actually does when we create a page of content.

      For somebody with absolutely no interest, who can barely put a html page together, wordpress will make a difference for them, but not because wordpress does anything better, it just adds stuff that you probably wouldn't do if you were using a typical html editor. Yes you can make static pages just as good, actually, probably better than a default wordpress creates them but this is of no interest to someone who just wants to throw up a few pages on a website and be done with it.

      The bottom line is more pages will be indexed with a default wp install and for most non techies who have no desire to replicate that with html, let alone they probably don't even realise it's happening, they will get a better serp position than what they would get simply throwing up that same content on a static site. To non techies, it's the only difference that matters, and that needs clarifying.
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      • Profile picture of the author WareTime
        Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

        Yes you can make static pages just as good, actually, probably better than a default wordpress creates them but this is of no interest to someone who just wants to throw up a few pages on a website and be done with it.
        While I've long railed against wp due to security issues, this part of your statement is 100% correct. It not only explains it's popularity, but also why wp gets so much seo cred. For some people that aren't good at creating html pages, and wouldn't do the necessary on page seo, wordpress can, depending on the template, be much better than THEIR handcrafted pages.

        For people that know how to make a page from the ground up, wordpress has no advantages other than the common advantage that one may attribute to any cms. Things like not having to manage linking. Create and publish, next. Not having to do much to manage site structure, etc.

        It's horses for courses. For the right person WP is better than sliced bread and for some of us it's bloated, insecure and not nearly optimized enough for what we are trying to accomplish.
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        • Profile picture of the author tdpubs
          Originally Posted by WareTime View Post

          While I've long railed against wp due to security issues, this part of your statement is 100% correct. It not only explains it's popularity, but also why wp gets so much seo cred. For some people that aren't good at creating html pages, and wouldn't do the necessary on page seo, wordpress can, depending on the template, be much better than THEIR handcrafted pages.

          For people that know how to make a page from the ground up, wordpress has no advantages other than the common advantage that one may attribute to any cms. Things like not having to manage linking. Create and publish, next. Not having to do much to manage site structure, etc.

          It's horses for courses. For the right person WP is better than sliced bread and for some of us it's bloated, insecure and not nearly optimized enough for what we are trying to accomplish.
          Amen brother. I use HTML or WP for similar reasons. I even use Joomla which gives me additional features and more security.

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          • Profile picture of the author fortony
            I had some sites drop in PR when I switched them to WP. A little while back, I converted the first two sites I ever made over to WP (I wanted to change them into adsense sites since the businesses I originally built them for were not worth it). I tried to keep the links etc. as close to the original HTML sites as possible and added some new stuff. One was a PR4 that dropped to a PR3 and the other PR2 that has dropped to a PR 0.

            The traffic has not changed on either and has in fact increased on both since I started to do some more linking. Goes to show PR does not matter too much with traffic sometimes.
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            • Profile picture of the author blueorca17
              So I've found out something interesting by testing both WP and HTML... They can both rank pretty high, so long as you know what you're doing. The reason that most people got this crazy idea that WP was better is because they weren't doing their SEO right to begin with on their HTML sites. WP was designed to make life easier, and if you're using the right plugins, it will surely help you in ranking higher, FASTER. The secret is in the plugins/widgets. It does the work so you don't have to waste precious time coding the HTML.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by tdpubs View Post

            Amen brother. I use HTML or WP for similar reasons. I even use Joomla which gives me additional features and more security.

            Dennis Francis

            Yeah Joomla can give you some killer features with just a plugin (pretty slick too. Most of the time you just load the zip file within the admin and it takes over form there) . I mean all kinds of sites but the admin panel is for the birds to a newbie.

            Joomla has changed I guess. Even recently I would have never heard anyone talk about security and Joomla. They used to have alot of sites hacked (but then quite a bit of that was plugins)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

        Granted, "illusion of content" isn't a good choice of words, but so what, why not simply ask me to clarify before reading it as literal. .
        Wilson all we have in a forum is words. If you use the wrong ones thats not my fault. Your words are your responsibility. I'll leave it there.
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  • Profile picture of the author GSX Enterprises
    I wonder how this varies for new blogs though, since yours was already established in Googles indexes, could it make a difference for new blogs?

    -Safe Travels
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    • Profile picture of the author fortony
      The fact that the sites were already established almost certainly had something to do with it and I probably did some things wrong. It does show that Google does not necessary love WP sites though.
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  • Profile picture of the author tjcocker
    Oh who cares...

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  • Profile picture of the author DigiCypher
    I'm still fairly new to this, but I'd venture to guess that maybe the reason WP has gained such popularity is because it's easy to use, with or without knowledge of bbcode, html etc. Also, with alot of economies tanking, people are looking for alternate sources of income, such as IM. Thus you get more and more new people (myself included) trying to get a piece of IM. The thing that is easy to comprehend and get practice with, is WP. Soooo maybe that has something to do with it? Or maybe I'm just going off on crazy conspiracy theories O.o
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