What do you think of PageRank?

James Winson

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StupidCupid Banned 14 years ago

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- paulgl 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by StupidCupid
  
  I totally agree with you on this. My PR 0 sites outranking many pr2 and 3 websites on google.
  
  If you are outranking a higher PR site, all that means is that you site
  is better geared for that search term. Your site cannot possibly the
  exact same as another site. People mix PR up and SERP all the time.
  
  That in no way means you will outrank a higher PR site that is going
  for and is optimized for the exact keywords you are. I can do
  a search for some selected word and say see, I wikipedia is not even on
  the first page, so I am outranking wikipedia! That would be complete nonsense.
  
  What PR does is give you a first look for the keywords google associates
  with your site. If google associates your site for A-B-C, and you have a PR5
  site, and your competitor has also been flagged by google for optimization
  on A-B-C, your site sill get a first look. And if it fits the searchers needs
  as decided by google at that point in time, it will indeed be picked first. If
  google does not feel that first site mentioned as an example meets the needs,
  it goes on down the list, eventually listing the sites is does feel fits the need.
  
  Because no searches are the same, you may search for A-B, and a lower PR site
  that is optimized for A-B will show higher, and a higher PR site optimized for A-B-C
  is going to show lower.
  
  If all things could be equal, across the board, a higher PR site will always be on
  top. That is, same content, same optimization, same keyword, same etc. But
  that's never the case. All a higher PR site gives you is a better chance of showing
  on top.
  
  In other words, for one time searches to make a point, a lower PR site may
  be just what the google doctor ordered. But for overall results, in that niche,
  with mixed and matched keywords, the higher the PR, the more it is likely to show
  over time.
  
  Your PR1 site may be optimized 100% for keyword A and show #1.
  But a PR6 site, optimized at only 25% for Keyword A might show #2.
  
  So to say that first site "beat" it, would be a little misleading without taking
  everything into account.
  
  Paul
  
  Thanks
  
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lexilexi

14 years ago

PR gives some indication of a page's overall "weight" but this does not necessarily dictate how those pages will score for a given keyword. You can outrank pages with higher PR that are not as well optimized for your KW. In general I don't worry about PR too much either.

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~kev~

14 years ago

Awhile back Matt Cutts (he works for google) mentioned a popular spammer phrase on his blog. Within a matter of days, Matts blog was on page 1 of google for that phrase - even though his blog is about google and seo, and has NOTHING to do with that phrase.

The only explanation, was that matts page has so many backlinks, that its treated as an authority site. And as an authority site, its ranked very well.

My opinion:

Does page rank affect "where" you rank in the search engines - Yes.
Is it an important fact - Yes
Is it one of the most important factors - No.

Search engines use dozens, if not hundreds of factors in ranking sites.

Matt has made several post on this topic. This is one of the examples that he used.

Lets say you have 2 friends with a blog.

Friend A - has a page rank 5 blog, but has backlinks from useless directories.

Friend B - has a page rank of 1, but has backlinks from Harvard, Yale, Yahoo News, BBC.

Chances are, the blog of B is going to outrank A, because B has better quality incoming links.

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dburk

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ~kev~

Awhile back Matt Cutts (he works for google) mentioned a popular spammer phrase on his blog. Within a matter of days, Matts blog was on page 1 of google for that phrase - even though his blog is about google and seo, and has NOTHING to do with that phrase.

The only explanation, was that matts page has so many backlinks, that its treated as an authority site. And as an authority site, its ranked very well.

My opinion:

Does page rank affect "where" you rank in the search engines - Yes.
Is it an important fact - Yes
Is it one of the most important factors - No.

Search engines use dozens, if not hundreds of factors in ranking sites.

Matt has made several post on this topic. This is one of the examples that he used.

Lets say you have 2 friends with a blog.

Friend A - has a page rank 5 blog, but has backlinks from useless directories.

Friend B - has a page rank of 1, but has backlinks from Harvard, Yale, Yahoo News, BBC.

Chances are, the blog of B is going to outrank A, because B has better quality incoming links.

Hi kev,

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with your assertions. I believe Google ranks based on relevance, not PR. Backlinks can, and usually do, play an important role in influencing relevancy scores, however not in the way you seem to be suggesting.

The problem with using the term "link quality" is that it seems to mean totally different things to different people. The problem in your example is that if a blog has links only from useless directories then it likely won't have a PR5, and if a page has links from high PR pages then it will have high PR itself.

The reason one blog may outrank the other is based on relevancy scores. PR on its' own does not contain elements of relevancy, so it has no direct influence on SERP ranking. Instead PR simply weights the value of anchortext on inbound links which is what influences relevancy scores.

So PR may be important, but only within the proper context. The PR of the page being ranked has little importance, while the PR of the pages that link to the page being ranked weights the amount of influence those links will have on the relevancy score, if the backlink happens to be relevant.

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~kev~

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi kev,

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with your assertions. I believe Google ranks based on relevance, not PR. Backlinks can, and usually do, play an important role in influencing relevancy scores, however not in the way you seem to be suggesting.

How do you explain the blog of Matt Cutts ranking on the first page of google for a popular spammer phrase, when his blog is about google, wordpress and SEO?

If your not familiar about what happened, read through this warrior forum thread - http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...gra-niche.html

Once a website reaches "authority" status, it will usually rank very well - regardless of the sites topic. So "how" do you get to be an authority? My opinion - it takes time for your domain to age, and lots of backlinks.

Originally Posted by dburk

The problem in your example is that if a blog has links only from useless directories then it likely won't have a PR5, and if a page has links from high PR pages then it will have high PR itself.

Its not my example - Matt Cutts gave the example in one of his videos. I just repeated it.

When you have authority sites lining to you, it increases your page rank and helps establish your site as an authority. Through both of these, your site should rank better then a site that has a lot of junk backlinks.

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dburk

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ~kev~

How do you explain the blog of Matt Cutts ranking on the first page of google for a popular spammer phrase, when his blog is about google, wordpress and SEO?

If your not familiar about what happened, read through this warrior forum thread - http://<b><u>http://www.warriorforum...e.html</u></b>

Hi kev,

It is simple, Google doesn't index and rank websites, instead they rank individual web pages. Search engines like Google are far more granular in their approach to indexing and don't consider website topics at all.

In the specific example you mentioned, the page did contain the keyword and was therefore relevant. If I wanted to find that particular post, all I would need to remember is that keyword and Matt's name. Google is really useful that way.

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~kev~

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi kev,

It is simple, Google doesn't index and rank websites, instead they rank individual web pages.

Let me see if I have this correctly, your suggesting that google gives relevance on a per page basis? If so, I can somewhat agree with that.

Some people suggest that you should only get backlinks from relevant sites. This helps google (and other search engines) determine what your site is about.

Using the "relevant link" theory, there must have been a lot of spammer sites that link to Matts blog. Either that, or relevant links are not important. Or maybe a little bit of both?

I just do not see where your theory on "relevance on a per page basis" would make Matts blog rank on page 1 because he mentioned a certain phrase a couple of times. Not when the overall topic of the article was about how google tries to filter out spammer sites.

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dburk

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ~kev~

Let me see if I have this correctly, your suggesting that google gives relevance on a per page basis? If so, I can somewhat agree with that.

Some people suggest that you should only get backlinks from relevant sites. This helps google (and other search engines) determine what your site is about.

Using the "relevant link" theory, there must have been a lot of spammer sites that link to Matts blog. Either that, or relevant links are not important. Or maybe a little bit of both?

I just do not see where your theory on "relevance on a per page basis" would make Matts blog rank on page 1 because he mentioned a certain phrase a couple of times. Not when the overall topic of the article was about how google tries to filter out spammer sites.

Hi kev,

Actually, it is not my theory, I get that from the whitepaper published by Sergey Brin and Larry Page, founders of Google.

The Anatomy of a Search Engine

Again, you are under estimating the granularity of Google's indexing. A single web document may discuss multiple topics and Google is very good at indexing that same document for each keyword that may be relevant.

Additionally, the blog post you use in your example has many backlinks, including a couple generated by your own post on this thread, that use the "spammers" keyword in the URL, anchor text, page titles or text. These are all signals that increase the relevancy score for that keyword.

Again, relevancy is never applied at the site level, only at the page level.

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paulgl

14 years ago

I can't say I disagree with what's here, except for maybe
a better explanation as to what I was referring.

It is all about relevance. That is what google at that point and
time feels is most relevant. But here's where I skew. The sites
that google looks at are all relevant, but they consider the highest
PR sites first before going down the food chain. If there are 10
PR6 sites that are spot on, and your site is equally spot on but
is PR3, those other sites will be listed as the first 10, yours maybe
#11. But if those same keywords get mixed around, jumbled, changed,
your site may be the best choice based on relevance. And then you
would be listed above the equal sites that are PR2, PR1, etc.

All things being equal, if that were 100% possible, then the highest
PR site would get the greatest consideration. And that, in short,
is why PR matters. But notice I keep saying "highest consideration,"
not necessarily chosen. PR is like votes in a republic, as opposed to
a democracy.

Paul

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dburk 14 years ago

Hi Paul,

I have to disagree somewhat with this assertion. Since, in my opinion, a slight improvement in relevancy is all that is required to overcome any advantage that a PR score may offer, it makes the importance of PR insignificant in ranking on the SERP.

PR has to be one of the least influential signals in Google's algorithm else you would see many competitive search results that rank in order of PR. Since that is the exception rather than the rule, it seems Google's SERPs are strong evidence to the contrary.
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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by paulgl

All things being equal, if that were 100% possible, then the highest
PR site would get the greatest consideration. And that, in short,
is why PR matters. But notice I keep saying "highest consideration,"
not necessarily chosen. PR is like votes in a republic, as opposed to
a democracy.

Paul

I'm going to offer a dissenting vote on this view and other views in this thread that PR matters at all in SERP ranking:rolleyes:

In my humble opinion (and experience), PR has zero, zip, zilch, nada relevance when it comes to Google SERP ranking. I just don't think there is a causal relationship here at all.

Now, backlinks can affect Pagerank and backlinks can affect Google SERP ranking. If I get a backlink from site A to my site, depending on the link, the anchor text, what page i'm linking to, and tons of other factors, the backlink may help (1) SERP ranking, (2) Pagerank, OR (3) BOTH SERP ranking and Pagerank. Depending on these factors, even if it helps improve both PR and SERP ranking, it may not affect each of these the same. That is, it may help a lot with SERP ranking and only a little with PR, or a lot with PR and a little with SERP ranking.

When you see a PR4 page ranking higher for a particular keyword than a PR2 page, should we take from that the PR4 site is ranking higher due to its higher PR over the PR2? Hell no. The site is ranking higher due to on-page SEO factors and, most importantly, backlinks (assuming we are talking semi-competitive or competitive keywords..as you can often rank very easy keywords with zero backlinks).

The page's PR has nothing to do with it, it is the backlinks that is causing the sERP ranking. Now, depending on the backlinks, are SERP ranking and PR sometimes correlated? Sure. Often times though they don't align due to factors surrounding the backlinks.

You have to look under the hood people. It's not the PR driving the ranking, its what's causing the PR that are driving the site to its SERP ranking.

Now, keep in mind that this only reflects PR and SERP ranking for that given site. If you want to sell links on your site, or if you want to use your site to link to other sites of yours, then yes, PR matters as a backlinking source.

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Groovystar

14 years ago

It's based on both, I think.

I think PR means almost nothing though. My site is still a 0 after being around since the start of April and we are ranking decently well.

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Fraggler

14 years ago

PageRank means zilch? Modern search engines are built around it.

The search engines work by getting a group of results based on relevance.

They then apply their magic quality/authority algorithm (based off PageRank) to reorder these results.

A page with a PR of 5 still might not be positioned higher than a PR0 or PR1 because the PR0 and PR1 is so much more relevant than the PR5 that applying the quality algorithm doesn't push it ahead.

It is very similar to the way bidding on Adwords works. Results are first sorted by bid price (== relevance); they are then resorted based on quality score and ctr (== PageRank). The end result is that an advertiser that bids more (more relevant) can sometimes be positioned below an advertiser that is higher quality (higher PR).

If the gap between the bid price and the quality score is too great than the positions don't change.

No one knows how Google determines relevance and no one knows how Google applies their quality filter algorithm. Saying they don't use the system they have patented is a stretch.

I will just add that even doing a manual inspection of a site won't show how the search engine views the site for relevance and quality. A user cannot see how Google treats a sites backlink profile; the on-site SEO; the history of the domain etc.

Edit:
Tom - PR is related to incoming backlinks so I am a bit confused as to why you are arguing PR doesn't mater. Backlinks affect PR and Relevance - the two factors I just talked about.

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Fraggler

PageRank means zilch? Modern search engines are built around it.

The search engines work by getting a group of results based on relevance.

They then apply their magic quality/authority algorithm (based off PageRank) to reorder these results.

A page with a PR of 5 still might not be positioned higher than a PR0 or PR1 because the PR0 and PR1 is so much more relevant than the PR5 that applying the quality algorithm doesn't push it ahead.

It is very similar to the way bidding on Adwords works. Results are first sorted by bid price (== relevance); they are then resorted based on quality score and ctr (== PageRank). The end result is that an advertiser that bids more (more relevant) can sometimes be positioned below an advertiser that is higher quality (higher PR).

If the gap between the bid price and the quality score is too great than the positions don't change.

No one knows how Google determines relevance and no one knows how Google applies their quality filter algorithm. Saying they don't use the system they have patented is a stretch.

I will just add that even doing a manual inspection of a site won't show how the search engine views the site for relevance and quality. A user cannot see how Google treats a sites backlink profile; the on-site SEO; the history of the domain etc.

Edit:
Tom - PR is related to incoming backlinks so I am a bit confused as to why you are arguing PR doesn't mater. Backlinks affect PR and Relevance - the two factors I just talked about.

Yes, PR means zilch. I'll say it a third time, PR means zilch.

I think you guys are missing the distinction between causation and, in some circumstances, correlation.

Backlinks --> PR

Backlinks --> SERP Ranking

BUT, PR does NOT --> SERP Ranking

Its the backlinks that matter, not the Pagerank. Pagerank does not help a site rank well in Google, it is the underlying backlinks. These backlinks may help SERP ranking, or they may not help SERP ranking. In any event, it isn't the PR that has any effect whatsoever on the SERP ranking....it is the backlinks.

Hypo 1: I have a site on dog training tips. It is PR0

I get a link in from a PR6 page (not domain). The link is a hyperlinked image of a Hippo with the alt text "hippo going #2."

Hypo 2; I have a second site on dog training tips. It is also a PR0

I get a link in from a PR6 page (not domain). The link is a contextual link with the anchor text "dog training tips."

The next PR update comes around, and the root domains (which are the one that the links are going to), get to a PR4

Back to Hypo 1. The link definitely helped page PR, but do you think it's going to really help to rank for "dog training tips"? I sure don't think so.

Back to Hypo 2. The link also definitely helped page PR, and the link also likely helped improve SERP ranking for "dog training tips" quite a bit. Now, was it the PR that helped this page rank in Google for "dog tranining tips", or was it the backlink? It was the backlink, and had nothing to do with the PR of your page.

Tom

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Fraggler

14 years ago

That is because the first link has no relevance to the search term - it is the only variable in that hypothesis. I just explained that relevance can out weigh authority.

I also explained that backlinks affect relevance and PR.

PR is a measure of the quality of backlinks to a page. A page can have a lot of backlinks but low PR - this is due to poor quality backlinks. Those poor quality links won't help improve the quality or authority of the receiving page but it may improve relevance.

I thought I explained pretty clearly how PR affects the SERPs.

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Fraggler

That is because the first link has no relevance to the search term - it is the only variable in that hypothesis. I just explained that relevance can out weigh

I also explained that backlinks affect relevance and PR.

PR is a measure of the quality of backlinks to a page. A page can have a lot of backlinks but low PR - this is due to poor quality backlinks. Those poor quality links won't help improve the quality or authority of the receiving page but it may improve relevance.

I thought I explained pretty clearly how PR affects the SERPs.

..and I thought I explained the difference between causation and (sometimes) correlation pretty well ;-)

I agree on most of your points, just don't agree with your conclusion at all:confused:. Yes, PR is a measure of the quality of the backlinks to a page. But, at the end of the day, it is the backlinks (including the "relevancy" of them), and not the PR that has anything to do with Google SERP ranking.

In other words, if one is given all the data about a site, including its backlinks, on-page SEO, but you are not given the PR of any pages of that site, one could potentially (if you had Google's algo on your computer for instance), determine it's exact SERP ranking. It is the backlinks that is driving the ranking, and has nothing to do with the PR. Sure, in certain circumstances, looking at PR can be a shortcut, but it's a damn crappy shortcut. One should be looking at the the root cause, which are the backlinks.

To summarize: If one looks at the backlinks (which is the #1 SERP factor), looking at PR is irrelevant, as the backlinks influence the PR.

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paulgl 14 years ago

No problem Tom Goodwin. We can disagree.

PR has nothing to do with SERP. That is true.

But you cannot leave it at that statement.

PR determines what sites will compete for the SERP,
based on relevancy.

American Idol started with 1,000's of contestants.
But only 20 are chosen for the finals. The judges now
only look at the 20. Can #21 win? No. Those top 20
make up the pool from where the winner is chosen.
How they finish is no up to other things.

And that's why PR is important.

A PR2 site with the same relevancy as a PR6 site will
lose at least 80% of the time. I'm giving google 20%
crazy results that one just cannot explain.

A PR N/A can win. But that only means there are no higher
PR sites with any relevancy.

paul
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shinya

14 years ago

If you want to sell backlinks then page rank is very important for you higher PR and you will get higher price

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Links

14 years ago

Originally Posted by rugstore

In relation to SEO projects, it is relatively unimportant but can give an indication of how much work needs to be done in gaining inbound links.

I think that people focus more on PR than they should. I have seen a lot of people turn down good quality niche related links due to low PR. PR changes and some waste a lot of time searching for those high PR links like they are the holy grail or something.

It might have some obvious benefit but it is more vanity. I'd rather have a couple Niche related links than a hand full of high PR links any day.

Others may feel differently.

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sabun

14 years ago

What do i think of PR?

I don't think of it at all unless i m weighing a web page for back link.

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jaratvit

14 years ago

PR does matter to those who sell links, since there are many people who pay a lot of money for a link on a PR5+ website.

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HCLee 14 years ago

Page rank affects only about 20 percent calculation of your search engine ranking so it is not that important. Having said that it helps me determine my competitors on page one whenever I'm targeting a particular niche by just looking at the PR of each of them.
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Abhinandangarg

14 years ago

it is important when your are buying links for any page, but it is not important for serp.

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paulson

14 years ago

Page rank is Google's perception of a site's importance, PR indicates the authenticity of a site. PR is not everything in SEO. The popular opinion is that PR has no relevance to SERPs, but Google's Matt cutts himself says, PR is one of the many factors which affect SERPs. PR is Important.

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andyveer

14 years ago

I doesn't give much importance to page rank , you shouldn't bother about page rank , there are many sites with less pr and getting more traffic and earning well. Traffic is everything..

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andii72

14 years ago

According to me page rank is the rank of page given by Google according to his quality.

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Carlos Castro

14 years ago

All things being equal, a higher PR site will usually show above lower PR sites. That is where your marketing savvy and know how comes into play. You utilize the other tools in your arsenal, primarily a link building system, on page SEO, and fresh content. In particular a good link building will definitely close the gap, add any of the other two and you have a chance to surpass higher PR sites.

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dburk 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Carlos Castro

All things being equal, a higher PR site will usually show above lower PR sites.

Hi Carlos,

While this tends to be true, we should not confuse cause and effect. PR score is not what caused those pages to rank higher, it is the things that caused the page to rank higher that caused the PR to be higher. Higher PR in and of itself does not directly cause your rankings to change.

Pages are ranked primarily on relevance not PR scores, and while it may be used as a secondary sort column in the rare event that your overall relevancy score is exactly they same as a competing page, it would tend to be much easier to improve relevancy than increase PR through backlinks. And regardless of how much your competitor increases his PR you still outrank him when your relevancy score is higher.

Your competitor could be a PR10 and you could be a PR0 and still outrank him simply by being slightly more relevant.
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- HCLee 14 years ago
  
  I've never placed too much focus on pagerank because it only affects about 20 pct of how you rank in Google. It's more important to focus on getting more quality backlinks that determines how well you rank.
  
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samualdany

14 years ago

If you want to sell your backlinks, one of the most important things is PR. Other than this application, the PR is pretty much of no use..

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What do you think of PageRank?

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