Is Google trying to tell me something?!

24 replies
  • SEO
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Hmm, I know this type of question gets asked a lot round here, but it's the first time it's happened to me!

A month-old mini-niche site went from it's initial ranking of about #75 to the #3 spot. Sat there on page one for a few days (made me some pennies) and then disappeared off the face of the earth, or rather to the very bottom spot in the SERPS - Google.co.uk only lists 500 sites for the keyword, and my pages are at, like 498, 499 and 500, apart from the legal page, which is at #250 somewhere! Been like that for about 5 days now.

I only dripped about 30 backlinks on it via a blog network a few weeks before that.

Anyone seen this happen? It's almost like the 'G' trying to make a point putting me at the very bottom of the SERPS!

More to the point, is it worth trying to get it back?! I know people talk about the Google Dance, but I am sceptical in this case!

P.S. Hmmm, I just realised this sounds a LOT like the famous "Minus 50 penalty". People don't seem to talk about that so much anymore, is that still a known phenomenon? I dunno why my little mininiche would get that just for a couple of dozen links on blog networks. I mean there are people round here throwing THOUSANDS of low-quality links at their sites and not getting penalised. Unless my site got linked from some really bad neighbourhood I guess...
#google
  • Profile picture of the author seogoat
    Sites with penalties tend to behave like this by bouncing around all over the place. It can be that or your links aren't good enough. Ask yourself if your backlink profile looks spammy.

    Drop the spammy backlink profile and it may come back. Although you might need to file a resubmission request.
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    • Profile picture of the author markowe
      Originally Posted by seogoat View Post

      Sites with penalties tend to behave like this by bouncing around all over the place. It can be that or your links aren't good enough. Ask yourself if your backlink profile looks spammy.

      Drop the spammy backlink profile and it may come back. Although you might need to file a resubmission request.
      Thanks for the suggestions. I dunno really what classes as a spammy BL profile. I think blog networks are one of the better types of backlinks. I don't do comment spamming (just a few legit comments on blogs), or forum profile backlinking or any of that automated stuff really. Well, apart from the blog network - those articles are spun, but I am not really paranoid about that sort of thing (and they are WELL spun - not that Google knows the difference)... Oh, a few duplicate articles on the main article sites. I dunno, all this is overthinking to me, I just don't believe Google is THAT sophisticated. Maybe I am very wrong about that! But there's a whole bunch of crap on page one for every KWP imaginable that proves I'm not!

      Maybe the links aren't good enough, but the brief appearance on page one, followed by the unceremonious dumping to the bottom of the SERPS is a bit weird! It IS an EMD, and a fairly boring Adsense-monetised site (a LITTLE bit better than an Xfactor). No different to a gazillion others out there...
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    • Profile picture of the author HostStage
      Originally Posted by seogoat View Post

      Sites with penalties tend to behave like this by bouncing around all over the place. It can be that or your links aren't good enough. Ask yourself if your backlink profile looks spammy.

      Drop the spammy backlink profile and it may come back. Although you might need to file a resubmission request.
      SEOgoat explained more then you need to know ^^

      Anyway, a few more tips :
      Try to get higher quality backlinks on authority websites.
      Also, keep the tracks of your backlinks and check if they are indexed. If not, build an rss feed and submit it to rss aggregators.

      Good luck !
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    I really think google is just finding a spot to place you. I think you will come back in the #1 or 2 spot.
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    • Profile picture of the author kezan98
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      I really think google is just finding a spot to place you. I think you will come back in the #1 or 2 spot.
      I totally agree, I've been doing the google dance for over a month, it was because I had added a huge amount of content to the site plus backlinks, today I am finally receiving traffic again, I do expect to bounce about for the next week or so though. Keep doing what you're doing, Google is finding a spot for you. Don't just give up now.

      Some say the google dance is a test to weed out spam sites, because the people who builds sites that are spammy aren't in it for the long haul and give up once they loose their initial position, I have no idea if this is true but the thought of my competitors giving up once they hit the google dance spurred me on to keep going.

      If you're still undecided whether you should keep going, give yourself a time frame (a least a month) where you'll continue to work on the site, if there's no improvement after that then cut your losses.
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  • Profile picture of the author cheekugames
    You can wait and hope the site returns or you can start to target a new set of keywords..
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    • Build links from other sources than just that blog network for a few days and see if it has any effects. Some sites can dance around as strongly though you might indeed have received a penalty for something.

      You can use this tool to get nothing more but a really rough idea if you have been penalized or not: SEOMoves | Google Penalty Checker Tool

      If it shows a green checkmark, keep building links and you'll come back stronger.
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      • Profile picture of the author markowe
        Originally Posted by BacklinkExcellence View Post


        You can use this tool to get nothing more but a really rough idea if you have been penalized or not: SEOMoves | Google Penalty Checker Tool

        If it shows a green checkmark, keep building links and you'll come back stronger.
        Ha, thanks for this tool, never seen it before, but it gives me a big X and says: "This domain has a severe penalty."! Honestly, I have no idea what that is based on - it probably just relates to its position in the SERPS or something, so it really tells me nothing I didn't know! Not nice to see though!
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        • Profile picture of the author Ovark
          Originally Posted by markowe View Post

          Ha, thanks for this tool, never seen it before, but it gives me a big X and says: "This domain has a severe penalty."! Honestly, I have no idea what that is based on - it probably just relates to its position in the SERPS or something, so it really tells me nothing I didn't know! Not nice to see though!
          I wouldn't trust that site, I just tested it with my friend's domain. it got the same result "This domain has a severe penalty.". However that domain is ranking #1 for it's main keyword. (and yes it was checked with numerous ips at numerous locations, so it was not a personalized google search)

          I would just keep on keeping on with adding more content and being patiant.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by BacklinkExcellence View Post

        Build links from other sources than just that blog network for a few days and see if it has any effects. Some sites can dance around as strongly though you might indeed have received a penalty for something.

        You can use this tool to get nothing more but a really rough idea if you have been penalized or not: SEOMoves | Google Penalty Checker Tool

        If it shows a green checkmark, keep building links and you'll come back stronger.
        Now I have an easy way to reply to people thinking they are sandboxed. lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author amenwolf
        Originally Posted by BacklinkExcellence View Post

        Build links from other sources than just that blog network for a few days and see if it has any effects. Some sites can dance around as strongly though you might indeed have received a penalty for something.

        You can use this tool to get nothing more but a really rough idea if you have been penalized or not: SEOMoves | Google Penalty Checker Tool

        If it shows a green checkmark, keep building links and you'll come back stronger.


        Every site I have on Blogspot seems to be getting the Big Red 'X' ...... hahaha
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  • Profile picture of the author markowe
    Thanks for the advice. People often say in these threads that it's just temporary and the site will bounce back, but I never had the chance to test it out till now :/ Hope you're right! I have added some more, better content actually, so it's more than just some Xfactor job.

    Just think it's weird that it literally ended up at the very bottom of the SERPS! Almost like a message to me..!
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  • Profile picture of the author arifagic
    Hi,

    I also think you should keep going, add in variation in your link building and keep adding back-links for 1-2 months.

    Report back how it goes, very interested in your findings
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  • Profile picture of the author dburk
    Hi markowe,

    You have not been penalized.

    What you described is exactly what any experience SEO would expect to see for a new web page. What you have experienced is a very common fluctuation that occurs on many, perhaps most new pages that are posted on the web.

    It's known as QDF (Query Deserves Freshness). It's a temporary boost in rankings for new content design to bring fresh results for searchers that may be looking for the latest information. After this temprary boost wears off your page will then sink to it's currently deserved ranking.
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    • Profile picture of the author markowe
      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

      Hi markowe,

      You have not been penalized.

      What you described is exactly what any experience SEO would expect to see for a new web page. What you have experienced is a very common fluctuation that occurs on many, perhaps most new pages that are posted on the web.

      It's known as QDF (Query Deserves Freshness). It's a temporary boost in rankings for new content design to bring fresh results for searchers that may be looking for the latest information. After this temprary boost wears off your page will then sink to it's currently deserved ranking.
      ...down to #500, ha ha! I don't think my site is quite that bad! It's well optimised for the keywords, EMD, varied content, images etc. There are many sites above it that have almost nothing to do with the subject. You know what I mean - it's just too big a drop.

      But sure, I hear people say all the time that this happens to new sites, it just never happened to me. Also, people usually say, 'oh, it will bounce back even higher', but it was at, like, #2, ABOVE the shopping results, and I can't really see it bouncing back even higher than that!

      I will certainly do a little backlinking and wait it out a little to see what happens and report back - I mean, it's not a disaster, I am just sort of interested in the end result and I will share it when and if I get it!

      Actually, I will tell you one thing I may have done 'wrong', thinking about it - I built about 30 backlinks (blog network) but was being lazy so just used the same anchor text for all of them. I mean, 30 links is not much, but then it's not high-competition either. It would be interesting if that had anything to do with it, but at the end of the day it's just impossible to know. I bet the Google people get a kick out of reading these threads..!
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      • Profile picture of the author dburk
        Originally Posted by markowe View Post

        ...down to #500, ha ha! I don't think my site is quite that bad! It's well optimised for the keywords, EMD, varied content, images etc. There are many sites above it that have almost nothing to do with the subject. You know what I mean - it's just too big a drop.
        Hi markowe,

        Google's algorithm doesn't try to determine how good or bad your site is. It doesn't even rank your "site" in search results. They are much more granular in their approach. They are rank each of the individual pages of your website using over 200 signals of relevance. Some of the signals are based on trust and off-page signals that will carry more weight than the same signals on a different page.

        The key things to focus on are relevance and usefulness. The more relevant and useful your page, and the more relevant and useful the pages linked to your page, the better your page will rank. Naturally it's Google's definition of relevancy and usefulness that matters, seek to understand how Google quantifies these values and you will have more clarity on your page ranking.
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        • Profile picture of the author markowe
          Originally Posted by dburk View Post

          Hi markowe,

          Google's algorithm doesn't try to determine how good or bad your site is. It doesn't even rank your "site" in search results. They are much more granular in their approach. They are rank each of the individual pages of your website using over 200 signals of relevance. Some of the signals are based on trust and off-page signals that will carry more weight than the same signals on a different page.
          Hi, I am familiar with this line of thinking and I can understand where it's coming from but my experience just doesn't back it up. I am not talking just about this site now - this was just an example of a specific phenomenon I was (and still am) trying to get to the bottom of - I have seen it with other sites too. They will rank highly for a whole range of keywords, with a whole bunch of pages appearing on page one and then pfffffttt! Overnight the entire site will stop appearing in the SERPS and I will find all those previously well-ranked pages suddenly relegated to page 50 or beyond. In that situation it is easy to draw the conclusion that Google has decided to basically devalue the entire domain (or at least a big slab of it), pulling all the pages with it. That's not to say if I created a really amazing page, got some massive publicity or whatever, that one page couldn't rank. I am just talking about this site-wide sudden loss of ranking. Now, I have been able to put this down to thin or auto-generated content in the past - OK, fair cop, and if I understand your argument right you could say, well, at some point Google suddenly realised ALL the pages on that domain were crappy, still considering each on their own merit, and then deranked each one individually overnight. But I don't really buy that, I think Occam's Razor would say that the obvious explanation is the entire domain took a hit.

          Also, what about this concept of site authority? Everybody buys that idea - that Google just loves certain domains and consistently sends new content on those domains straight to page one (e.g. the top tech blogs). So what's to stop them also hating on a domain?

          I would love to square what I have seen with what you are saying (it would make me feel more optimistic for one thing!), I just can't see how!

          Originally Posted by dburk View Post

          The key things to focus on are relevance and usefulness. The more relevant and useful your page, and the more relevant and useful the pages linked to your page, the better your page will rank. Naturally it's Google's definition of relevancy and usefulness that matters, seek to understand how Google quantifies these values and you will have more clarity on your page ranking.
          Sure, and that IS what I try to do. But there are sites out there that are irrelevant and useless and they are still sitting at the top of page one! In the light of my above impression, it's easy to get discouraged and say, Google hates me, my site got relegated, Minus 50 Penalised, sandboxed, sin-binned, whatever you want to call it, and now whatever I do with that site, nothing will help!

          It's just a teeny bit weird that most of my pages are shoved to positions 497, 498 and 499, with the LEAST relevant page (the TOS page!) at 250 somewhere! That doesn't really tell me much about Google's perception of relevance!

          Convince me otherwise - I want to believe
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          • Profile picture of the author seogoat
            Does it rank if you put www dot your site dot com inside quotation marks into Google?
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            • Profile picture of the author markowe
              Originally Posted by seogoat View Post

              Does it rank if you put www dot your site dot com inside quotation marks into Google?
              Yes, it's all there, appears in first place then

              Actually, I was going to do an update, because I am sure there are people who have similar experiences and like to compare things:

              UPDATE: just had a look and my site has returned on Google.com, to 19th place, which may well be a more realistic position, though I hope it improves some more!

              On Google.co.uk (which is where I really want it ranking on page one!) it is still languishing in the 500th position, but the same thing happened when it got its original page one ranking - google.com ranked it and then co.uk followed suit, so here's hoping the same will happen.

              Will keep you posted - I know I like to hear about others' experiences with this sort of thing.
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              • Profile picture of the author carrenting
                I think you just don't have enough backlinks for your blog and that's why your are facing the problem of so much variation in ranking. Just continue with the off page promotion and keep a check on keyword rankings.
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          • Profile picture of the author dburk
            Originally Posted by markowe View Post

            Hi, I am familiar with this line of thinking and I can understand where it's coming from but my experience just doesn't back it up. I am not talking just about this site now - this was just an example of a specific phenomenon I was (and still am) trying to get to the bottom of - I have seen it with other sites too. They will rank highly for a whole range of keywords, with a whole bunch of pages appearing on page one and then pfffffttt! Overnight the entire site will stop appearing in the SERPS and I will find all those previously well-ranked pages suddenly relegated to page 50 or beyond. In that situation it is easy to draw the conclusion that Google has decided to basically devalue the entire domain (or at least a big slab of it), pulling all the pages with it. That's not to say if I created a really amazing page, got some massive publicity or whatever, that one page couldn't rank. I am just talking about this site-wide sudden loss of ranking. Now, I have been able to put this down to thin or auto-generated content in the past - OK, fair cop, and if I understand your argument right you could say, well, at some point Google suddenly realised ALL the pages on that domain were crappy, still considering each on their own merit, and then deranked each one individually overnight. But I don't really buy that, I think Occam's Razor would say that the obvious explanation is the entire domain took a hit.
            Hi markowe,

            When we follow the principle of Occam's Razor we find that the simpler explanation is usually the best, however the examples you cite are easily explainable by well know ranking factors without formulating additional speculative factors.

            It's matter of perspective. To use an analogy, early man looked up at the sky and saw that the heavenly bodies rotated around the earth in complicated patterns. That was their perspective because they had limited knowledge of orbital mechanics. Likewise, from the perspective of a webmaster we see many of our pages drop in rank for many different keywords and we feel as if our entire website has been somehow penalized. That's a reasonable conclusion from the limited perspective of a webmaster. When we study how search engines work we learn that they do things that may not be targeting your entire website, not even your website specifically, but it may feel that way to the webmaster.

            It's well known that Google has an anti web spam team that hunts down web spam and devalues the influence of links from those pages. If a webmaster has used web spam to bolster the ranking of their pages for certain keywords, and those backlinks were devalued, we would expect to see those pages drop in ranking for those particular keywords. Additionally, if a page that has a significant amount of PR coming from backlinks that get devalued or removed, and was passing PR to other pages of a website, we would expect those pages to lose some of their ranking power.

            These well known factors already account for the ranking drop phenomenon without adding a theory of individually targeting a particular website for specific keywords.

            Originally Posted by markowe View Post

            Also, what about this concept of site authority? Everybody buys that idea - that Google just loves certain domains and consistently sends new content on those domains straight to page one (e.g. the top tech blogs). So what's to stop them also hating on a domain?

            I would love to square what I have seen with what you are saying (it would make me feel more optimistic for one thing!), I just can't see how!
            No, not "everybody buys that idea". I for one do not buy into the concept of site authority. I can see how so many have bought into it because, from the limited perspective of a webmaster, it sounds very plausible. However, it's a theory that doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.

            The well known PageRank algorithm along with the lesser known Trust factors, as applied to individual pages, account for all the effects that are commonly attributed to "site authority". Since "site authority" would dilute the relevancy of SERP results it seems like a poor choice as a ranking factor. I can't see Google using a factor that could only serve to lower the relevancy of results.


            Originally Posted by markowe View Post

            Sure, and that IS what I try to do. But there are sites out there that are irrelevant and useless and they are still sitting at the top of page one! In the light of my above impression, it's easy to get discouraged and say, Google hates me, my site got relegated, Minus 50 Penalised, sandboxed, sin-binned, whatever you want to call it, and now whatever I do with that site, nothing will help!

            It's just a teeny bit weird that most of my pages are shoved to positions 497, 498 and 499, with the LEAST relevant page (the TOS page!) at 250 somewhere! That doesn't really tell me much about Google's perception of relevance!

            Convince me otherwise - I want to believe
            I think this is a case of using your own view of relevance rather than Google's. The fact that you do show up in the SERP at all is evidence that Google found your page relevant enough to be included. And if not for those other 400+ pages that were also relevant your pages would be top ranked.

            Again, this is a matter of perspective. Clearly Google is determining relevance differently than you had expected. I'm sure if you determined relevance, in exactly the same way as Google's method, you would find those pages you called "irrelevant" at the top of your list.

            The lesson to learn here is that Google has a specific method used to determine relevance and the key point is to learn how Google determines relevance. When we understand the signals of relevance used by Google and have a general idea of how they apply those signals to rank pages we can use that knowledge to improve the ranking of our own pages.

            Search engines like Google do not rank "sites" they rank individual pages. They use on-page factors as well as signals from pages that link to that page. They see your page as part of a web, a web that expands beyond the limits of a particular "site". And this web that you page is contained within plays a major role in influencing the relevancy score of your page.

            Naturally, anything that influences the web that you page belongs to will have an impact on your page. And when all the pages of your website share a common set of webs they also share the impact of changes in those webs. This is, in part, the reason diversity in your webs are important to achieve stable rankings.
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  • Profile picture of the author johny29
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    • Profile picture of the author markowe
      Originally Posted by johny29 View Post

      I think it is all because of spamming links you created.
      Well, you seem like an expert on spam, so I will have to believe you!

      But I do not consider 30 good articles sent out to blog networks, with links in the article body to be 'spam', especially as compared to people out there posting THOUSANDS of links to forum profiles?!
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      • Profile picture of the author seogoat
        Ah sorry I must have skipped the month old bit! Dburk is right. You have nothing to worry about. Is it only 1 month?
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        • Profile picture of the author markowe
          Originally Posted by seogoat View Post

          Ah sorry I must have skipped the month old bit! Dburk is right. You have nothing to worry about. Is it only 1 month?
          Well, about 6 weeks now - it went in on page one almost exactly at one month and then crashed out a week later, and that was over a week ago.
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