Over-Optimization tool?

12 years ago

Post the link and we can give advice.

But look for things like keyword being mentioned too many times, crap content that isn't helpful, ads above the fold and on page manipulation with links, amongst other things.

Thanks

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BigSleep

12 years ago

Agreed, get rid of all junk content and make sure your client is being genuinely useful and there`s nothing that can be seen as spammy on the site.

Thanks
1 reply

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TSDMike

12 years ago

I can't post a link due to an arrangement I have with my client. It's complicated.

I've looked through his content and other than a handful of pages with similarly keyworded titles and perhaps some keywords in the copy that are bolded, there isn't much I consider to be excessive.

If no such tool exists, I will probably have to experiment a little bit.

Thanks
1 reply

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TSDMike

If no such tool exists, I will probably have to experiment a little bit.

The main issues I have seen with over optimising are;

1, Using keyword for main "Home" link navigation
2, Excessive internal backlinks to home page with keyword. (should be no more than 33% same anchor)
3, Links on page point to same url with keyword
4, Re-directing 404's to main page is not a good idea
5, Duplicate keywords in meta description and meta tags
6, Excessive on page keyword stuffing, (1% is just fine)
7, Excessive and duplicate keywords in post tags
8, Other BS tools for stuffing keywords i.e; seo search tags
9, BS, pointless and otherwise seo garbage content

I have a site that is optimised with title, meta tag/description, h1, h2, h3, bold, italic, underlined, image alt and internal and external links with anchor text and it's fine. I really don't see how they can shoot you for this, they even encourage it.

Have you checked the backlinks?
Have any dropped off?
When is the last time you built backlinks?

[ 2 ] Thanks
2 replies

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

1, Using keyword for main "Home" link navigation

Wrong, you can use a keyword, no big deal.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

2, Excessive internal backlinks to home page with keyword. (should be no more than 33)

This is the wackiest thing I've read all week regarding SEO. Really?, no more than 33 internal links on a single site, WOW (lol)!

What about the real world sites that have thousands of pages, or better yet a site that has 34 pages? Do you really think an exact number like 33 links will sink a site in the SERPs. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

3, Links on page point to same url with keyword

Apparently you've never heard of SEO Breadcrumbs.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

4, Re-directing 404's to main page is not a good idea

Wrong, I redirect all 404s to my Index page, who the heck want's to look at a 404 page? The 2nd part of that is salvaging internal/external backlinks that point at a dead internal page. A 404 page is wasting internal & external backlink juice.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

5, Duplicate keywords in meta description and meta tags

If it makes sense, use it. Spam is one thing, saying one size fits all isn't practical.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

6, Excessive on page keyword stuffing, (1% is just fine)

Agreed, 1999 has come & gone. I don't agree with 1%. Write normal, include the keyword at least once.

Forget about percentages.

Keyword stuffing/density is one of the most annoying questions constantly asked here on WF.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

7, Excessive and duplicate keywords in post tags

Agreed, you should question "Do you really need a Tag page?".

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

8, Other BS tools for stuffing keywords

Same as #6.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

9, BS, pointless and otherwise seo garbage content

Same as #6.

BTW, stay away from Google webmaster forums, that's just creating your own problems.

Thanks
1 reply

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adamcm

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Wrong, you can use a keyword, no big deal.

This is the wackiest thing I've read all week regarding SEO. Really?, no more than 33 internal links on a single site, WOW (lol)!

I think he meant 33%

. The first time I read this as well I wondered where 33 came from as well.

Thanks
1 reply

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Breadcrumbs are one thing but links from an article is just plain manipulation, honestly why would you link an article to the same url? Other than looking like a complete bell end it's anchor text manipulation. Links are for linking away to other pages on your site or off site not to yourself.

With the home page keyword link, same story. Why on earth would you change your home link to buy electric scooters, be realistic with the motives here, not only does it mess with the site navigation but it's anchor text manipulation, plain and simple, maybe you don't see it that way but i can tell you Google does. I mean't 33% but i'm not talking about internal links in general just obvious anchor txt manipulation, so you have 100 pages and 90 of them link to your homepage with the same keyword from within the article, why? Keyword density really it's a no brainer just be sensible and write for users. Well i've tried to point out some if anyone cares to add more?

Thanks
1 reply

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

Breadcrumbs are one thing but links from an article is just plain manipulation, honestly why would you link an article to the same url? Other than looking like a complete bell end it's anchor text manipulation. Links are for linking away to other pages on your site or off site not to yourself.

With the home page keyword link, same story. Why on earth would you change your home link to buy electric scooters, be realistic with the motives here, not only does it mess with the site navigation but it's anchor text manipulation, plain and simple, maybe you don't see it that way but i can tell you Google does. I mean't 33% but i'm not talking about internal links in general just obvious anchor txt manipulation, so you have 100 pages and 90 of them link to your homepage with the same keyword from within the article, why? Keyword density really it's a no brainer just be sensible and write for users. Well i've tried to point out some if anyone cares to add more?

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

Breadcrumbs are one thing but links from an article is just plain manipulation, honestly why would you link an article to the same url? Other than looking like a complete bell end it's anchor text manipulation. Links are for linking away to other pages on your site or off site not to yourself.

Without going into a lot of detail, you should seriously look into what jumplinks are & how they can help with both SEO & SERP CTR.

If you decide not to look into jumplinks, well, your loss.

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

With the home page keyword link, same story. Why on earth would you change your home link to buy electric scooters, be realistic with the motives here, not only does it mess with the site navigation but it's anchor text manipulation, plain and simple, maybe you don't see it that way but i can tell you Google does.

Their is zero SEO advantage & zero user advantage to name an INDEX pages internal URLs with anchor-text as Home.

Each page should have a Title, use it.

Do you have a page with the name Home (I doubt it)?

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

I mean't 33% but i'm not talking about internal links in general just obvious anchor txt manipulation, so you have 100 pages and 90 of them link to your homepage with the same keyword from within the article, why? Keyword density really it's a no brainer just be sensible and write for users. Well i've tried to point out some if anyone cares to add more?

That (33%) is still a ridiculous claim.

I don't understand how your against keyword stuffing/density, yet your putting an exact percentage on internal links, doesn't make any sense & the claim is bogus with nothing to back the claim.

Create internal links when it makes sense, not based on a fake percentage. :rolleyes:

Thanks
2 replies

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hicksdelight

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Their is zero SEO advantage & zero user advantage to name an INDEX pages internal URLs with anchor-text as Home.

Each page should have a Title, use it.

Do you have a page with the name Home (I doubt it)?

Exactly, you anchor it what the page is about.

Not just the home page, but other internal links on a page are normally anchored the same way, so if it is a problem having the 'home' link being named 'widgets' (if thats what the home page is about), should we also change the internal page of 'blue widgets' to 'internal link 1'?

If Google see's that as keyword manipulation (and i have read some people say they do) then it must also see other internal links as keyword manipulation, so we should all have a linking structure like this on our sites

home
internal link 1
internal link 2
internal link 3
internal link 4

etc etc

Thanks
1 reply

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Originally Posted by hicksdelight

Exactly, you anchor it what the page is about.

If Google see's that as keyword manipulation (and i have read some people say they do) then it must also see other internal links as keyword manipulation, so we should all have a linking structure like this on our sites

Like I've said, it's not the internal links, they can focus on what area they feel is being abused, atm its the home page anchor text link (not title), in particular

1, Excessive on page (same) anchor text manipulation to index page
2, Excessive off page (same) anchor text manipulation to index page

Honestly ATM you can really get away with throwing any amount of identical anchors with Google, I've even seen Bing with harder filters!

Thanks

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Without going into a lot of detail, you should seriously look into what jumplinks are & how they can help with both SEO & SERP CTR.

If you decide not to look into jumplinks, well, your loss.

I know what they are and know how they can increase ctr and help with navigation so they're a good thing, I agree with that.:p

Originally Posted by yukon

Their is zero SEO advantage & zero user advantage to name an INDEX pages internal URLs with anchor-text as Home.

Each page should have a Title, use it.

Do you have a page with the name Home (I doubt it)?

Look, I'm not talking about page titles as such, the titles that appear in a browser, you can have the text as Home and the title="Wigets" so what? it just changing the anchor text "Home" to "Widgets" how the hell am I going to know where your home page is? when it's surrounded by other similar words? It just messes with the navigation.

Yes I do have a Home navigation link with the anchor "Home" but the title is "Smartphones"

Has anyone here actually seen a site like this? So your surfing the site and click to go back to the index page and you can't find it? all you can see is a link that says "How to Cure Hemorrhoids" (not that I have hemorrhoids).

Originally Posted by yukon

That (33%) is still a ridiculous claim.

I don't understand how your against keyword stuffing/density, yet your putting an exact percentage on internal links, doesn't make any sense & the claim is bogus with nothing to back the claim.

Create internal links when it makes sense, not based on a fake percentage. :rolleyes:

I'm not talking about internal links in general, it looks as if the homepage will be coming under alot more scrutiny regardless of other navigation links which could be excluded. Yes it makes sense to link to relevant content but there does come a point when the motives behind it are obviously to manipulate anchor text.

The particular sites that do this are often small 10 page sites that have an adsense block crammed down your throat as soon as you open up the page up, I not saying these sites will be a thing of the past, but they will be hit the hardest, that's why I prefer to build bigger sites now, 250 plus+ pages of useful content. These type of sites will eventually be replaced by internal pages of higher authority sites, so what do you think is the best thing to do?

Thanks

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Stuart william

12 years ago

Originally Posted by dmtaylor247

The main issues I have seen with over optimising are;

1, Using keyword for main "Home" link navigation
2, Excessive internal backlinks to home page with keyword. (should be no more than 33% same anchor)
3, Links on page point to same url with keyword
4, Re-directing 404's to main page is not a good idea
5, Duplicate keywords in meta description and meta tags
6, Excessive on page keyword stuffing, (1% is just fine)
7, Excessive and duplicate keywords in post tags
8, Other BS tools for stuffing keywords i.e; seo search tags
9, BS, pointless and otherwise seo garbage content

I have a site that is optimised with title, meta tag/description, h1, h2, h3, bold, italic, underlined, image alt and internal and external links with anchor text and it's fine. I really don't see how they can shoot you for this, they even encourage it.

Have you checked the backlinks?
Have any dropped off?
When is the last time you built backlinks?

Using same meta for all landing pages
Try to increase density of particular webpage with excessive use of keywords
Creating too many outbound link in short span of time

Thanks

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jetsetter883

12 years ago

i'm of the belief that most on-page optimization should look 'accidental' rather than incidental.

hmm, same goes for off-site come to think of it.

Thanks

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Sorry forgot to mention, that list is just speculation but something similar will be in next panda update. They're working on it now probably with some off page stuff too. Just to note the over optimization penalty and panda 3.3 are two completely different things, 3.3 wasn't even an update just a refresh of their data. If you want to see the best panda advice go to the Google blog, they have everything there on how to deal with it.

Thanks

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Supafly

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TSDMike

For the record, I can state to an almost absolute certainty that this is an issue with on-page elements.

MJ

I wouldn't rule out off page elements unless you do little to no backlinking. I am testing some sites at the moment and it is becoming more and more evident that aggressive backlinking may be the cause for some of my sites to slip in search results.

All my sites have very basic on page SEO (less than 1% keyword usage and all the stuff mentioned above). The sites that have natural links built to them seem to remain relatively unaffected while the sites with aggressive backlinking campaigns continue to slip. All backlinks are from sites with good PR and significant domain age, but frankly my testing pool is very small so none of this is set in stone, just what I'm observing.

From what I can tell, Google is looking harder at unnatural linking structures and may be penalizing sites for it. And if this is the case, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out because if I wanted, I could go to Fiverr and purchase about 100,000 spammy backlinks for my favorite competitors - if I wanted to.

Some good articles:
How to Stop Over Optimizing and Start Creating for SEO - Whiteboard Friday | SEOmoz
Searchengineland
Searchengineland

Would like to hear what others think about this topic as I believe it will continue to have a significant impact on SEO...

Thanks
1 reply

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User banned from this site for being relevant.

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tylerherman

12 years ago

So now we've gone from on-page optimization to increase ranks to "un-optimizing" to reduce damage.

How about just make useful content and don't worry about any of it.

Thanks
1 reply

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tylerherman

So now we've gone from on-page optimization to increase ranks to "un-optimizing" to reduce damage.

How about just make useful content and don't worry about any of it.

Useful content is great & I'm all for it, still useful content sitting on page 437 in the SERPs isn't very useful is it?

If traffic never finds that useful content sitting on page 437 in the SERPs, what's the point of caring If you ever get SERP traffic, because sitting on page 437 will get you exactly zero traffic 7 days a week.

Better have another traffic source besides the SERPs (which I recommend anyways) If your not doing at least some form of basic SEO.

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1 reply

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dmtaylor247

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Supafly

I wouldn't rule out off page elements unless you do little to no backlinking. I am testing some sites at the moment and it is becoming more and more evident that aggressive backlinking may be the cause for some of my sites to slip in search results.

So you hit the nail on the head, focus on your internal pages and not your home page (for now). For Panda 3.3 I think it's the best strategy, create good content (more than incoming links). Forget about exact anchor text links to your homepage, just get good high pr links, vary the anchor everytime you get one or don't even use it, all you are interested is in getting pr not ranking the index page for an ultra competitive term, you just need the authority.

When your index page PR rises, so will the internal pages in the serps, then throw a few light bookmarks and weaker social links and profiles to your internal pages and hey presto a site Google will love, with great content and natural links. Further down the road once the site is more developed then it's own weight, a few high quality links and domain authority will carry it to the top. To me it looks as though Google have shifted from page authority to the index page to domain authority = more, varied and diverse backlink profile to internal pages.

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Stevemartin619

12 years ago

But Google didn't provide the full detail about over-optimization so, how we judge what that mean?

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dmtaylor247 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Stevemartin619

But Google didn't provide the full detail about over-optimization so, how we judge what that mean?

You can't, I said it's just speculation, atm it's the opinion in general from the seo community about what over-optimization actually is. All you can do is trial and error with Google, test if things don't go your way, make changes and adapt to their system.
- Thanks
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marcell12

12 years ago

Yes, dmtaylor247 is right. You can not find it out as there is not any hard and fast rule to judge over-optimization. You just check it when you think that there is chances to be.

Thanks

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Over-Optimization tool?

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