Does Google really treat a subdomain as a different domain?

12 years ago

I too have read and heard this and have my own interpretation of these happens.

I suspect that Google figured out that they were passing substantial domain authority to subdomains on a domain that weren't necessarily connected/recommended to/by the base domain.

In response to this they slapped a penalty, or an algorithmic adjustment on sites like wordpress.com, blogspot.com, etc that have no editorial control over their subdomains, this obviously improved search engine results as sites on Wordpress.com shouldn't benefit from the domain authority garnered through the success of the WP project.

This was interpreted rightly or wrongly by SEOs as a message that subdomains were being treated as separate domains to the base domain.

I would suggest that in some cases this may be true, but that Google is able to figure out when a subdomain is under the editorial control of the main site or not and thus sites with few subdomains are likely to reap the rewards and penalties associated with the main domain, but subdomains on wordpress.com would still not see any benefit.

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Nelapsi

12 years ago

Based on what I have read.. subdomains are treated as basically folders off the root domain.

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dburk

12 years ago

Hi ikuret75,

To answer your questions:

Does Google really treat a subdomain as a separate domain?
- Answer: Yes, since it technically is a separate domain, Google does treat it as a separate domain.
If yes, how do you explain my above experiences and the reason we use high PR web2.0 sites for our backlink sources?
- Answer: Sites do not have PR. PageRank is assigned to individual pages, not sites. The domain has absolutely nothing to do with ranking, save the keywords that may be included in the URL.
- The reason People use Web2.0 sites is:
  - They are free.
  - You can often include your keyword in the domain so that it is included in all your URLS.
  - You may receive traffic and/or links by participating in a community website.
If no, is it advisable NOT to use a subdomain (or sub folder) for any new site (e.g. for a department of a company) which you would like to rank as risk hedge?
- Answer: Except for the reasons stated above, the domain plays no role in ranking, each web page is ranked individually based on the content on the page, and how the page appears in the web of pages that is included (regardless of domain).

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ikuret75

12 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi ikuret75,

To answer your questions:

Does Google really treat a subdomain as a separate domain?
- Answer: Yes, since it technically is a separate domain, Google does treat it as a separate domain.
If yes, how do you explain my above experiences and the reason we use high PR web2.0 sites for our backlink sources?
- Answer: Sites do not have PR. PageRank is assigned to individual pages, not sites. The domain has absolutely nothing to do with ranking, save the keywords that may be included in the URL.
- The reason People use Web2.0 sites is:
  - They are free.
  - You can often include your keyword in the domain so that it is included in all your URLS.
  - You may receive traffic and/or links by participating in a community website.
If no, is it advisable NOT to use a subdomain (or sub folder) for any new site (e.g. for a department of a company) which you would like to rank as risk hedge?
- Answer: Except for the reasons stated above, the domain plays no role in ranking, each web page is ranked individually based on the content on the page, and how the page appears in the web of pages that is included (regardless of domain).

Thank you for your answer(s).
However it made me wonder more.

*In your answer/theory, the fact my subdomain sites got hit at the same time (but not other domains) were just coincidence?

*If fomain itself has nothing to do with the ranking, how about as the backlink source? I have seen a website that has only one link from a PR0 or 1 page of high authority site (high PR domain/home page) beat many other sites and ranked high with a competitive keyword.

*Similarly, why do people use high PR web 2.0 sites as their tier 1, tier 2 etc?
(They wouldn't use a Web 2.0 of low PR domain (home page) as their main backlinks.) Having High PR for a base domain may not mean much when it comes to ranking, but how about passing link juice? Or other blog network for that matter? In blog networks, each page (Where the link comes from) does not have high PR, but the base domain does. And they work(ed) like a charm and that's why Google took public blog networks down, didn't they?

Thanks!

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billt 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Nelapsi

Based on what I have read.. subdomains are treated as basically folders off the root domain.

Question

Is it better to just use pages or subdomains?

I am setting up amazon stores and putting different products on.

Which is better?
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MikeFriedman

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ikuret75

Hi,
However - when I was using PPC and got slapped, I tried to use the same keywords with a site using a subdomain of the same domain but I got low QS immediately. (I used different content so obviously the low QS came from the domain I was using)

AdWords and Search are two different things that are not related.

How the search team views something does not necessarily directly correlate to how the AdWords team sees it.

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ikuret75

12 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

AdWords and Search are two different things that are not related.

How the search team views something does not necessarily directly correlate to how the AdWords team sees it.

My point is if Google treats subdomains as different domains, then they should/ would not have penalized my subdomain sites instantly. When I used a new domain it was fine (With different content). The point is Google penalized my subdomain for my base domain. It does not mattaer PPC or Search, it is about if Google sees them differently. If in the PPC the algorithm is to treat them as related domains, it is very likely they have similar Algorithm in the Search as well.

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MikeFriedman 12 years ago

Originally Posted by ikuret75

My point is if Google treats subdomains as different domains, then they should/ would not have penalized my subdomain sites instantly.

I understood what you were saying. What I was trying to explain to you is that Google does not have set standards across all its platforms for every single thing.

For example, the AdSense team has recommended to people in the past to put more ads "above the fold", while this year the Search team decided that a site can have its rankings lowered for having too many ads "above the fold".

AdWords views on the relationship between domains and subdomains does not necessarily mean that Google's Search has the same view or philosophy on that relationship.
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n0tr3v3

12 years ago

Wow, I was worried that Google would in-fact pass on authority to sub-domains then it would be quite possibly to pass penalty to them has well.

As such I have built a number of sub-domains and I limit my link building to 0.5% percent for the domain being in-fear that if the domain got hit so would the sub-domains....

But I have notice that my domain ranking at #2 out of "2,640,000 websites" for its main keyword with just a couple of back-links. I suspect that building links to the sub-domain has even given the domain more authority for its keyword or it could just be low competition.

But my sub-domains are not ranking from the 18 Sep. 2012 and my domain is still ranking as usual.....

Well I do hope someone can shred a little light..

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PerformanceMan

12 years ago

Yes, they sure do. Otherwise every WordPress.com blog on a subdomain would be a MASSIVE AUTHORITY and rank for every keyword. And they don't.

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UMS

12 years ago

I have a 12 year old domain with about 10 sub-domains on it.

A while back, I put an auto-blog on the main domain as I wasn't really using it for anything useful.

Anyway, when Panda came along, the main domain and all the sub-domains were deindexed (quite a few pages on the sub-domains had PR).

I removed the autoblog and filed a reconsideration request. About two weeks later the main domain and all the subdomains were back in the index again and the PR restored.

For me, that's proof that Google doesn't treat subdomains as entirely independent entities.

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ikuret75

12 years ago

Originally Posted by UMS

I have a 12 year old domain with about 10 sub-domains on it.

A while back, I put an auto-blog on the main domain as I wasn't really using it for anything useful.

Anyway, when Panda came along, the main domain and all the sub-domains were deindexed (quite a few pages on the sub-domains had PR).

I removed the autoblog and filed a reconsideration request. About two weeks later the main domain and all the subdomains were back in the index again and the PR restored.

For me, that's proof that Google doesn't treat subdomains as entirely independent entities.

Yes, this is something I see or hear often that made me think about the question.

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PerformanceMan 12 years ago

Originally Posted by ikuret75

Yes, this is something I see or hear often that made me think about the question.

It's a totally different scenario. The OP asked about ranking. The other guy is talking about a complete banning/de-indexing. Of course if they take the main domain out they're going to have to take the subdomains out with it.

But on large authority sites that offer subdomains, the subdomains are definitely treated differently than the main domain.

How could they not be?
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- UMS 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by PerformanceMan
  
  Of course if they take the main domain out they're going to have to take the subdomains out with it.
  
  I don't see why a main domain is deindexed that all the subdomains would be as well.
  
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rahmanpaidar

12 years ago

I highly doubt that Google treats subdomains as entirely seperate domains.
You can test this with query such as this:

yourdomain.com

Only one or two subdomains of your site will be shown in 10 results (if any)
Google usually limits search results in a serp with seperate domains and lists
only one or two pages from each seperate domain.

So your subdomains belongs fairly to your main domain in eyes of Google.

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palpatine

11 years ago

I think what sometimes happens (probably most of the time), is that the main domain (example.com) serves as the "Home" for the meat of the site and then links to different services, etc. on subdomains (service.example.com).

Therefore, if there's a penalty to the main domain, the subdomains are subsequently penalized as well. It can work vice-versa as well.

In this scenario, even if Google treats subdomains differently (and I'm not saying they do), the fact that they're linked together can get all domains/subdomains penalized.

Thanks,

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Guru SEO 11 years ago

I can see evidence that Google uses domain information to penalize all related subdomains. I do think that domain authority is passed on to the sub domains, but not as much as domain to inner page. Take for example hubpages and Squidoo. You can gain faster authority and pr on squidoo vs hubpages.

It would be interresting to compare two different sub domains from says , hubpages and tumblr and see if authotity does have effect on the sub doamain.
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GeorgR.

11 years ago

There might be certain penalties which are carried over the entire domain and the subs.
BEST example for this (as already mentioned) how an adwords campaign can immediately give you a bad QS if you re-do a new lander on a new subdomain because you screwed something up on the main domain.

Problem is, we never know once a new algorithm kicks in or when a MANUAL review happened whether it affects the entire domain (plus subs) or just the domain. But its reasonable to assume that it's NOT that easy, in case of doubt I always assume the entire domain got slapped.

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skaeo 11 years ago

I am looking to create a sub-domain and push a lot of traffic to it for a specific product we offer. Will that not create any juice for the primary domain? Because the XXX.MYDOMAIN.COM will still have MYDOMAIN.COM.
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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Do this: site:cars.about.com

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danparks

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Do this: site:cars.about.com

yukon I usually understand your points but this is a little too cryptic for me. I'll preface this by saying I don't know whether or not google treats domains and subdomains independently.

For site:cars.about.com, only cars.about.com results show up. So, seems like it's being treated as a separate domain.

However, when doing site:about.com, many subdomains show up (such as randb.about.com). So, there it seems like subdomains are grouped with the main domain and not being treated separately.

Now I'm more confused then I was initially. :rolleyes:

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by danparks

yukon I usually understand your points but this is a little too cryptic for me. I'll preface this by saying I don't know whether or not google treats domains and subdomains independently.

For site:cars.about.com, only cars.about.com results show up. So, seems like it's being treated as a separate domain.

However, when doing site:about.com, many subdomains show up (such as randb.about.com). So, there it seems like subdomains are grouped with the main domain and not being treated separately.

Now I'm more confused then I was initially. :rolleyes:

That site (about.com) must have a www preference setup in WMT and/or on their server.

If you do a site:www.about.com you probably won't see any sub-domains in the search results (I didn't see any sub-domains on the first few search pages).

In case that doesn't confuse things even more (lol), a couple years back I had a site.blogspot.com blog that was showing other site.blogspot.com as a bunch of internal links inside WMT, blogs I didn't own & were not on my Google account.

Here's some more info. (couple years old). Even that Google link contradicts how Google SERPs returns results (non-www vs www).

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Carl Brown

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

That site (about.com) must have a www preference setup in WMT and/or on their server.

If you do a site:www.about.com you probably won't see any sub-domains in the search results (I didn't see any sub-domains on the first few search pages).

In case that doesn't confuse things even more (lol), a couple years back I had a site.blogspot.com blog that was showing other site.blogspot.com as a bunch of internal links inside WMT, blogs I didn't own & were not on my Google account.

Here's some more info. (couple years old). Even that Google link contradicts how Google SERPs returns results (non-www vs www).

\
Well, isn't that because "www" IS a subdomain of about.com?

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yukon Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Carl Brown

Well, isn't that because "www" IS a subdomain of about.com?

Technically I guess, but you can pick your preference (non-www vs www) inside WMT, I guess you still can, I haven't looked at it for a while.
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tofrar

11 years ago

When you buy hosting plan with unlimited domain all it do is that you have one primary domain and all other you add is sub domain.

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stolf 11 years ago

Originally Posted by tofrar

When you buy hosting plan with unlimited domain all it do is that you have one primary domain and all other you add is sub domain.

tofrar subdomain is not same as addon domain.With a addon you only share the same c-panel, its a complete stand alone website.
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- danparks 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by tofrar
  
  When you buy hosting plan with unlimited domain all it do is that you have one primary domain and all other you add is sub domain.
  
  Originally Posted by stolf
  
  tofrar subdomain is not same as addon domain.With a addon you only share the same c-panel, its a complete stand alone website.
  
  That was a good point to clarify because I see what tofrar was referring to. To many people looking at the folder structure in ftp it would look like add-on domains are sub domains, but they aren't.
  
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- tofrar 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by stolf
  
  tofrar subdomain is not same as addon domain.With a addon you only share the same c-panel, its a complete stand alone website.
  
  You should read this
  
  Please read before creating an Addon Domain « HostGator.com Support Portal
  
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RealEcon

11 years ago

Ive had my suspicions about this as well. I think something gets passed from the root domain to the sub. I also think its possible that having a PR6 or PR7 as your main domain on your hosting account, with all your other domains under it, can help those lesser domains rank.

Only going off of anecdotal evidence, no case studies:-)

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acesavage

11 years ago

I have my main site (www.mainsite.com) and a subdomain (new.mainsite.com), I'm only using the subdomain as a development area for my new redesigned site. The subdomain is hidden under the construction page, so SE's shouldn't get confused and start indexing the subdomain (or at least it's contents).

When I'm ready to make the switch to the new design, would it be okay if I just have my host server point my domain (mainsite.com) to the new subdomain?

Technically, Google / SE's should see this as the same domain (www.mainsite.com), since they wouldn't really see the subdomain that I setup...?... Just not sure if this is proper way to go about switching to the new design?

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LiftMyRank

11 years ago

Yes, if your TLD gets hit with a penalty it's hard for your sub domains to carry on without a hitch, setup silo sites if you're worried, it's safer this way..

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acesavage

11 years ago

Thanks John... Unfortunately, it wasn't so easy to switch my domain over / repoint it to the subdomain... Host Gator tech support had no idea how to do this, other then to tell me to do a 301 redirect.

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ventsiwad

10 years ago

People,

Google is smart enough to find out if sub-domain is part of a website or not. It didn't simply made all subdomains different websites, when it was dealing with wordpress

.

It simply checks if:

1. They has relevant content.
2. They have the same design (html/css/js).
3. They have some kind of connection. A link, for example, saying with it goes in the title or the anchor

.
4. And some other stuff...

It is just so obvious to do so, but when we talk about news websites... well... this is another matter. All the categories look like different websites, but they are still the same website.

In fact, it is very easy to check. There is a reason for the command to be named "site:"

. Just write site:example.com and if the subdomain shows up, than google thinks its part of the website. If not, well... you get my point

.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!

Thanks
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dburk

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ventsiwad

People,

Google is smart enough to find out if sub-domain is part of a website or not. It didn't simply made all subdomains different websites, when it was dealing with wordpress

.

It simply checks if:

1. They has relevant content.
2. They have the same design (html/css/js).
3. They have some kind of connection. A link, for example, saying with it goes in the title or the anchor

.
4. And some other stuff...

It is just so obvious to do so, but when we talk about news websites... well... this is another matter. All the categories look like different websites, but they are still the same website.

In fact, it is very easy to check. There is a reason for the command to be named "site:"

. Just write site:example.com and if the subdomain shows up, than google thinks its part of the website. If not, well... you get my point

.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!

Hi ventsiwad,

Sure, Google is smart enough to know if a subdomain is part of a website. That doesn't change the fact that Google does not index, nor rank, websites, they index and rank individual web pages. Understanding this fundamental concept is crucial to understanding how Google's search indexing is ranked.

The site: operator is simply a filter, it isn't part of SERP ranking. The fact that all subdomains of a particular domain are not filtered doesn't mean that they are part of the same website. It just means they share a common root domain that the site: operator did not filter.

For example if you search the term "marketing strategies" you will see that the top ranked page is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_strategy‎, that page happens to be on the en.wikipedia.org website, but Google doesn't return that "website" in the SERP it returrns the specific web "page". The indexing is of individual pages not of websites. That is why Google is a "search engine", and not a website directory.

To further illustrate my point, lets use that site: operator to see what is returned when we use the following in Google's search box:

site:.com marketing strategies

Please note that the Wikipedia page is no longer included in the search results, not because it isn't relevant, and not because it doesn't contain the same design, nor from lack of links, titles, or anchors. It is simply filtered from results because the site: operator is nothing but a simple filter.

For the same reason all of those pages listed are certainly not part of the same site, even though we did use the site: operator. The site operator is just a filter for the SERP, not an indication of what Google considers to be a website. That simple observation proves this point, wouldn't you agree?

Cheers and Happy Holidays to you as well!

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paulgl

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ventsiwad

It didn't simply made all subdomains different websites, when it was dealing with wordpress

.

Of course it did. Anyone knows they are separate websites from wordpress.com.
How insane.

Originally Posted by palmer9999

Oh man subdomains! What a nightmare. If you ever want to rank on Google do not use a subdomain! Google hates them! I had a blog on a subdomain, blog.subdomain barely ranked for over 20 blog posts. Moved it to mysite/blog ... guess what loads of keywords getting ranked.

Also when was the last time you saw a subdomain in Google search.. avoid if I were you

Where are you living? Ever searched for ESPN? ABC? They are all subdomains
of go.com. Go ahead. Search for espn.

Ever hear of about.com? Their subdomains rock.

answers.yahoo.com? You've never seen THAT in serps?

How about digitalpoint? Sure, I love the WF, but my guess is that
forums.digitalpoint.com outranks WF many times.

You never search for television ratings either, I suppose, cuz
zap2it.com and their plethora of subdomains rock that niche.

Go on. I dare anyone to search for
disneyland resort

Subdomains, for the most part, are separate sites.

But hey. Way to dig up a thread that should have remained dead
and buried. Someone must have a sig...

Paul

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ventsiwad 10 years ago

Originally Posted by paulgl

Of course it did. Anyone knows they are separate websites from wordpress.com.

I meant in general, lol. Clearly, it did for wordpress.com .

I get the point about site: operator, but still .... I seriously doubt that Google thinks that en.wikipedia.org and bg.wikipedia.org are different websites. I also doubt that they don't share DA with wikipedia.org. I also think that if they make goshko.wikipedia.org it will gain the DA from wikipedia.org. Don't you think so? Unless they put redtube there. . Then it will obviously backfire and the entire domain will suffer. It is nothing else but shared DA. Can you think of a different reason?

But I think that a good idea is to make it possible for webmasters to set if a sub-domain is a different website or not. May be somewhere in GWT...
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- Charmcontent 10 years ago
  
  Google can act strange regarding domains and subdomains.
  I have this one site, the main domain has a PR of 4 and so i setup a subdomain on it hopping that it would ride on the PR of the main domain.
  
  Result: 6 months and google has never indexed it despite the fact that I have submitted it through several forms.
  
  The second site was only 6 months old with a PR of 1, I installed a subdomain on it and it was indexed, all other webpages on it are also indexed and its home page now has a PR1 , and main domain has a PR of 2.
  
  So I think at times Google treats it as a separate domain while some other times it treats it as one.
  
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palmer9999

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ikuret75

Hi,
I often hear/read etc. that a sub domain is treated as a different domain (than the root/main domain) by Google.

However - when I was using PPC and got slapped, I tried to use the same keywords with a site using a subdomain of the same domain but I got low QS immediately. (I used different content so obviously the low QS came from the domain I was using)

Now - Penguin. Many of my websites got hit by it but initially one domain and its subdomains which were ranked with different keywords but the same niche got hit. My other sites(domains) got hit too eventually, but I was convinced that G was penalizing the domain.(So, I had about 10 sites which were ranked well, and 3 of the above sites - the sites with one domain and 2 subdomains of the domain - got hit at the same time but not the others until later).

Also - we use "high PR web 2.0" for their backlinks and this is because high PR site has high domain authority and we want that with our web 2.0 sites. If subdomain doesn't get any of root domain's domain authority, using subdomain type web 2.0 sites doesn't make sense, does it? (Am I missing something here?)

Now - I have a new company website which has different departments (like an insurance company which has car insurance, health insurance etc.) and it would be natural to use subdomains (or sub folders for that matter) but I'm worried if one of the sites (the main domain or subdomain) got hit with a new algorithm then all the sites get got hit.

To sum up, my questions here -

1: Does Google really treat a subdomain as a separate domain?

2:If yes, how do you explain my above experiences and the reason we use high PR web2.0 sites for our backlink sources?

3:If no, is it advisable NOT to use a subdomain (or sub folder) for any new site (e.g. for a department of a company) which you would like to rank as risk hedge?

Thank you.

Oh man subdomains! What a nightmare. If you ever want to rank on Google do not use a subdomain! Google hates them! I had a blog on a subdomain, blog.subdomain barely ranked for over 20 blog posts. Moved it to mysite/blog ... guess what loads of keywords getting ranked.

Also when was the last time you saw a subdomain in Google search.. avoid if I were you

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dburk

10 years ago

Originally Posted by palmer9999

Oh man subdomains! What a nightmare. If you ever want to rank on Google do not use a subdomain! Google hates them! I had a blog on a subdomain, blog.subdomain barely ranked for over 20 blog posts. Moved it to mysite/blog ... guess what loads of keywords getting ranked.

Also when was the last time you saw a subdomain in Google search.. avoid if I were you

Hmm... I see subdomains in nearly every Google search. Www is a subdomain, as is en and many others. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention? :confused:

For example I just did a Google search for the term "blogging" and the SERP page included results for all of the following subdomains:
www
codex
googleblog
analytics

Try searching the term "puncuation" and you see first page results that include the following subdomains:
www
en
grammar.ccc
owl.english

It appears that Google doesn't "hate" subdomains after all, perhaps it was some other reason that you had trouble ranking with your first subdomain?

From all of the research and testing I have done over the years, I have never seen an actual case where the proper use of a subdomain would harm SERP rankings, I believe that is just a myth.

Thanks

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pialia

10 years ago

I think yes. you may google it for more information

Thanks

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Does Google really treat a subdomain as a different domain?

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