Need someone to diagnose serp problems

11 years ago

Neither of those tools will give a great picture of your overall link profile. They might find 20% of your links at best.

If you think it is a problem with links, the best thing to do is analyze the links from Google's Webmaster Tools.

If it is a case of bad links, company 2's idea of 301'ing the original domain and starting with a new one is stupid. The link penalty will pass through the 301 redirect onto the new domain. Waste of time and money.

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Mike Anthony 11 years ago

If you really had nothing to do with the links then I agree with Mike. The advice to change domains is stupid especially because you are a candidate to use the disavow tool. As suggested use webmaster tools to get an idea of your links that is real. You may not even be over optimized. You might even have lost some key links. However if you are then you can go over the links in the webmaster tools data and figure out which ones you want Google to consider removing from your profile.
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Snowclone

11 years ago

What niche are you in? Do you face tough competition from other smaller ecommerce sites? What kind of site is coming up for these keywords now? Have you been tracking your competition as well?

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InBrussels

11 years ago

Guys,let me tell you a story of a guy named Joe

Joe is an internet marketer and he used to make quite a lot of money trough his website.He done a lot of seo,buying all kind of links that had effect at that moment and he managed to rank top 3 for some verry competitive keywords.Some of his competitor didn't like that,and beeing aware of Negative Seo,they've built a lot of awfull links to over-optimize Joe's anchor text.Considering Joe was having about 1k links,they've built 9k awfull links to ruin his site.
Now,Joe dosen't have too many solutions unfortunatelly,because all he has,it's a bunch of link juice that he can't profit from.

a)He tries to recover the site by building over 9-10k backlinks to compensate the anchor over-optimisation with quality links and diversified anchors.
Chanses of success aren't high but the budget will be really high.

b) He tries to recover the site by using disavow tool.But Joe,dosen't know that using that feature most of the time there is an manual review,where Google employes might easily notice if there were backlinks built in the past to influence the algorithm.This backlinks,having nothing to do with the recent attack,will get Joe's domain sandboxed for life leaving him with nothing.

c)He tryes to start fresh with a new site leaving everything behind.
In this case,new site,new seo promotion for at last 5-6 months.
The budget for the above requirments beeing so high,Joe decides this is not a solution.

d)Joe is aware that only some Serious penalities passes 301 Redirects and considering he haven't even received a message in WMT for unatural link notice,he consider his penality less sever so he come up with the following plan
He buys a new domain and dose the 301 redirect
After that,Joe builds a special section,where he starts adding relevant content to his site as often as he can.
In the mean time,Joe is already building some new quality backlinks,and profiting from the help of 301 redirect,he should recover his positions pretty fast,because he basically told google he started fresh,and now it's all about content and quality,people are loving it(=backlinks) and he deservers his positions again.
I'd say,the highest chanse of success

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nzrobert

11 years ago

Originally Posted by oldsteel68

I run an ecommerce website which is currently having some issues. I was ranked for a number of keywords for a few years until about 1 month ago and I then disappeared from serps.

I havent done any SEO or link building during that time.

Ive been in contact with a few SEO companies and Im getting conflicting stories. One company using "magestic" is telling me my main keyword is only 3% of my anchor text and wants to start a campaign for me building that keyword.

Company 2 is using "ahrefs"? Telling me im OVER optimised and my main keyword is 90% of my anchor text. Suggesting that I change my domain name, 301 my old, and start fresh... Thinks someone hit my domain with negative SEO because there is a spike of links sometime in march...

This domain is 6 yrs old and im seriously at my wits end here..

Really need some guidance from someone who really knows there stuff to give me some advice..

Please...

Mike

What is your domain name? Did i miss it somewhere?

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

If it is a case of bad links, company 2's idea of 301'ing the original domain and starting with a new one is stupid. The link penalty will pass through the 301 redirect onto the new domain. Waste of time and money.

A link spam penalty will not pass through from a domain level 301 redirect..... otherwise I would be able to snap up old domains which have been hit due to spam and redirect them straight into my competitors websites..

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RealEcon

11 years ago

OP, you are not going to get a clear answer on this topic. Because there are too many variables in Googles current algo now, and most people only understand a couple of the variable and focus on only those.

If your site has a bunch of stale non-active links from pages and content that are unrelated to your niche, you probably have a penalty.

In most cases there is no way to recover from a penalty.
Spammer Dug You Into A Hole: Start Fresh Says Google

So if you are confident you have a penalty, bite the bullet and clone your site onto a new clean domain.

DO NOT 301 REDIRECT THE PENALIZED DOMAIN TO THE NEW ONE.

Remove the content from the old domain, and leave a place holder page on the homepage, with a link to your new domain. Like: "We have moved to www.newdomain.kom, come visit us today."

Much of the juice will pass (without the penalty) to your new domain.

Its a tough situation, but it is the environment that Google has created and desires to foster.

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Wesley Atkins

11 years ago

Mike,

With my experience of SEO companies, I'd ignore their advice completely.

The first step is to make sure EVERYTHING onsite is ok.

1. Check under Crawl Errors and make sure you have no identified issues. If so, get them fixed. Any 404 errors need to be 301 redirected to their most logical location.

2. Under HTML improvements, ensure again there are no content issues. I've seen tons of sites drop in rankings due to onsite duplicate content. Google doesn't want it in their index.
With eCommerce sites in particular and dynamically showing product pages from a database, this becomes a problem if the products pages are getting indexed under more than one URL. Sometimes with query strings in the URL.

Once you're sure these are all ok, then you need to take a close look at your backlink profile. I'd extract the data from Majestic, OSE and GWT and organize it in a spreadsheet, removing the duplicates and looking at the anchor text for over optimisation.

BTW, the first SEO company you mention is pure BS. Under optimization on your anchor text will not cause the sudden drop. My clients rank with 0 keywords in anchor text.

Whatever you do, don't setup a new domain and 301 redirect that is the worst thing you can do.

P.M. me if you want me to take a look at GWT

Thanks
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MikeFriedman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by nzrobert

A link spam penalty will not pass through from a domain level 301 redirect..... otherwise I would be able to snap up old domains which have been hit due to spam and redirect them straight into my competitors websites..

Yes it will. Did you miss all the tests people did trying to 301 their sites to new domains after getting blasted by Penguin last year? It pretty much all cases the site would regain rankings and then about 3 weeks later crash.

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InBrussels

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Yes it will. Did you miss all the tests people did trying to 301 their sites to new domains after getting blasted by Penguin last year? It pretty much all cases the site would regain rankings and then about 3 weeks later crash.

No it won't,unless the site got penalised for something really serious,like dirty Blackhat techniques,as Cloaking,hacked sites,link exchange etc.Else,as someone above mentioned,i'd simply snap sand-boxed domains,and point them to my competitors.
It can't be that easy,right?

I have quite a few sites that got hit with a penality and also quite a few case studies as refferences ,and now,it's been more then 7 months,and the new domains are still ranking due to 301 redirect and 100-200 new links.

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MikeFriedman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

No it won't,unless the site got penalised for something really serious,like dirty Blackhat techniques,as Cloaking,hacked sites,link exchange etc.Else,as someone above mentioned,i'd simply snap sand-boxed domains,and point them to my competitors.
It can't be that easy,right?

I have quite a few sites that got hit with a penality and also quite a few case studies as refferences ,and now,it's been more then 7 months,and the new domains are still ranking due to 301 redirect and 100-200 new links.

That is just like the people who say, "Bad links don't hurt a website. If they did, I could just point a bunch of them at my competitors..."

Well, it turns out you can. Negative SEO is real.

If what you were saying were true, all the uproar about Penguin would have died a few weeks after it was released. Everyone would have just done a 301 to a new domain and gone about their business. Google, is not that stupid.

If you 301'd sites and recovered rankings, I would say you probably were not really hit by any kind of bad link filter.

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InBrussels

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

That is just like the people who say, "Bad links don't hurt a website. If they did, I could just point a bunch of them at my competitors..."

Well, it turns out you can. Negative SEO is real.

If what you were saying were true, all the uproar about Penguin would have died a few weeks after it was released. Everyone would have just done a 301 to a new domain and gone about their business. Google, is not that stupid.

If you 301'd sites and recovered rankings, I would say you probably were not really hit by any kind of bad link filter.

What is your definition for "bad backlinks" ? You think google haves some simple filters that decides wherever a backlinks is just "good" or "bad" no other measurments,no nothing?
I highly doubt it.

Yes,negative Seo is indeed something real and it's done everyday unfortunatelly.

BUT

just sending backlinks to a site,it won't get it sandboxed if you don't know what you're doing.There's a lot more things to take in consideration,like backlink quality,link velocity,anchor distribution,platform diversity,citation site's authority and a lot more factors then we both imagine.

Sometimes,sending a bunch of links on a aged,authority sites,with a rich link profile,is just going to give him extra authority.Have you tried to do Neg Seo on wikipedia or a cnn? Yea,it's pretty hard,isn't it?

Beside that,I have a live case study on how a domain gets ranked in under 30 days,using just spammy backlinks.We're now on Day 7,and Spot 12 of Google.Unfortunatelly,I can't link to it,because it's hosted on another forum,but if you PM me,I'll be happy to reveal it.
I'm not saying that using junk links are a way to promote a long-term project,but it proovs that it still works if you use some knowledge and logic.

Regarding the Uproar about Penguin,you'll be quite surprised to see how most people used to rank their sites.I seen quite a few,and to be honest,on their cases,there was no logic in doing a 301 redirect to save that junk.
But,wait,there's still quite a few people that managed to save their sites doing a 301 redirect.
How did they do it?

Btw,if not a bad link filter sent me to spot 120 from no.1,what else could it be on a quality site?
Beside that,I never said that doing 301 redirect alone will save him.
Also,301 redirects are in no-way blackhat as some people tends to belive.

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MikeFriedman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

What is your definition for "bad backlinks" ? You think google haves some simple filters that decides wherever a backlinks is just "good" or "bad" no other measurments,no nothing?
I highly doubt it.

Yes,negative Seo is indeed something real and it's done everyday unfortunatelly.

BUT

just sending backlinks to a site,it won't get it sandboxed if you don't know what you're doing.There's a lot more things to take in consideration,like backlink quality,link velocity,anchor distribution,platform diversity,citation site's authority and a lot more factors then we both imagine.

Sometimes,sending a bunch of links on a aged,authority sites,with a rich link profile,is just going to give him extra authority.Have you tried to do Neg Seo on wikipedia or a cnn? Yea,it's pretty hard,isn't it?

Beside that,I have a live case study on how a domain gets ranked in under 30 days,using just spammy backlinks.We're now on Day 7,and Spot 12 of Google.Unfortunatelly,I can't link to it,because it's hosted on another forum,but if you PM me,I'll be happy to reveal it.
I'm not saying that using junk links are a way to promote a long-term project,but it proovs that it still works if you use some knowledge and logic.

Regarding the Uproar about Penguin,you'll be quite surprised to see how most people used to rank their sites.I seen quite a few,and to be honest,on their cases,there was no logic in doing a 301 redirect to save that junk.
But,wait,there's still quite a few people that managed to save their sites doing a 301 redirect.
How did they do it?

Btw,if not a bad link filter sent me to spot 120 from no.1,what else could it be on a quality site?
Beside that,I never said that doing 301 redirect alone will save him.
Also,301 redirects are in no-way blackhat as some people tends to belive.

Link velocity? That's funny. Link velocity is a joke. Sorry, but if it was something you really needed to worry about, sites would get penalized for going viral. I don't see that happening.

I never said spam won't rank a site. That was nowhere in this conversation. It certainly will in some searches. Probably won't stay there long-term though unless there is absolutely no competition.

I also never said anything about CNN or Wikipedia in regards to negative SEO. Sites like that are pretty much immune to it. That has been discussed many, many times on this forum and countless other ones.

As for the bad backlink filter, I never said it is as simple as IF A, THEN B. I'm sure there is more to it. Thinks like relevance certainly plays a part.

Your site that went from number 1 to 120... could be a hundred different reasons for that. You are saying it was bad links, but we have no way of knowing if what you are saying is accurate or not.

Bottom line, for a crappy little MFA or affiliate site that got hit, sure, try the 301 and see what happens. Nothing to lose.

For a real business though, there is a lot more to think about before just throwing away the old domain and doing a 301 redirect. For one thing, figure out if it really had anything to do with the links in the first place. Hell, the webhost server might have gone down for 2 days and Google decided to drop the site. The site might be hacked, which caused the drop.

I could go on, but there are a lot of other things to look at first. And even if you decide the links are the problem, a new domain may not be the most suitable answer.

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InBrussels

11 years ago

Mate,you really dissapointed me when you said Link Velocity is a joke.It's actually a game changer for about 1-2 years...

If link velocity dosen't matter,why don't you build 10k backlinks in a day and wait for the results?
Makes sense right?
There's a reason why we build backlinks constantly,either 10/day or 10.000k/day and keep increasing to achive the desired results faster then our competitors.

Viral sites dosen't get penalised because they get a certain pattern,they don't get 1 mil backlinks in a day and zero the next one.This is just a simple example on how wrong you can be regarding link velocity.
If you can mimic a viral site's popularity,then you pretty much figured the seo game.

Well,basically,when you see a spike of 10-50k backlinks built directly to your site,and you are damn sure you haven't done any of them,especially when they have the same anchor text(unatural),I guess there's not too much to analyze,and consider yourself hit by neg seo.

I understand that doing a 301 redirect might not be the best option,but in case the domain can't be saved,it's like saying no to a Freebie.What you want him to do with that link juice(ranking power),simply let it expire without even trying it?

In case the penality passes,you won't have losen as much as you would've lost trying to build thousands of backlinks to recover your link profile.

If he uses the disavow tool and draws the attention of a manual review,he can say bye bye forever to that domain,since in that case,not even a 301 will make a difference.

You can always start fresh again with a new domain leaving years of work behind,but I'd personally try to save as much as I can from my work before calling myself defeated and start all over again.

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Ldimilo

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

Mate,you really dissapointed me when you said Link Velocity is a joke.It's actually a game changer for about 1-2 years...

If link velocity dosen't matter,why don't you build 10k backlinks in a day and wait for the results?
Makes sense right?
There's a reason why we build backlinks constantly,either 10/day or 10.000k/day and keep increasing to achive the desired results faster then our competitors.

The problem with this argument is that tons of websites experience sudden growth from things like news reports. And it follows a very natural pattern (websites with a lot of traffic make referential statements and websites that follow the major website refers as well and so on and so forth. Co-citations from already trusted websites would happen. It would create a rolling effect.

Your link velocity example wouldn't fit this type of normal link behavior patterns.

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MikeFriedman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

Mate,you really dissapointed me when you said Link Velocity is a joke.It's actually a game changer for about 1-2 years...

If link velocity dosen't matter,why don't you build 10k backlinks in a day and wait for the results?

If I could get 10,000 good links in a day, I would take them in a second.

You are confusing link velocity with problems caused by low quality links. Generally, if you have 10,000 links coming in, it is probably from building a bunch of low quality links. That is a completely different problem and would catch up with you eventually whether you did it slowly or quickly.

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InBrussels

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

If I could get 10,000 good links in a day, I would take them in a second.

You are confusing link velocity with problems caused by low quality links. Generally, if you have 10,000 links coming in, it is probably from building a bunch of low quality links. That is a completely different problem and would catch up with you eventually whether you did it slowly or quickly.

Well,if you are that sure link velocity dosen't matter at all let's make a case study.
We both get 2 simmilar keywords in terms of competition and 2 simmilar sites.
To keep the costs low,we can get a list of AA blog comments and split it in 2 parts.
You go and create all the backlinks in a day from your half of list.

I spread the link building of my list for 30 days.

After 35 days,you'll notice that my domain will rank higher then yours.It's been proven plenty of times before.

Anyway,I'm not saying that link velocity simply equals with = the speed you create backlinks with.Alough,is partially true,it's not gathering the whole picture.

Edit: I see that more people came in with opinions before I got the chanse to post this reply,but i'll be back later

Later Edit:

For mike

Just the sheer Idea that Google would be spending programmer dollars to figure out how slow or fast you spammed your links borders on unthinkable.

Mike,if you think google algorithm dosen't store informations about the date when a backlink was found,I suggest you go and do your homeworks.
Actually,that data it's gathered into a graph and analised for certain patterns.
I never said that google needs to find your backlinks in the same day...

Also,it's simply stupid to think that Google dosen't follow certain patterns to identify whatever a link profile was done naturally or artificially.It's not really good at doing it,but it's still the best search engine at the moment.

No - viral doesn't tank sites because among all the viral links there are good, high authority contextual links compared to a million bookmarks, spam comments and forum profile sigs. Has nothing to do with velocity but quality.

Yea,continue to belive what Matt Cutts says,unrelevant backlinks are simply ignored by the algorithm and there is no neg seo.

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Hansons

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

Well,if you are that sure link velocity dosen't matter at all let's make a case study.
We both get 2 simmilar keywords in terms of competition and 2 simmilar sites.
To keep the costs low,we can get a list of AA blog comments and split it in 2 parts.
You go and create all the backlinks in a day from your half of list.

I spread the link building of my list for 30 days.

After 35 days,you'll notice that my domain will rank higher then yours.It's been proven plenty of times before.

We can even make a bet if you want,as i done lots of CS's about link velocity in the past and i know how it works.

Anyway,I'm not saying that link velocity simply equals with = the speed you create backlinks with.Alough,is partially true,it's not gathering the whole picture.

Edit: I see that more people came in with opinions before I got the chanse to post this reply,but i'll be back later

Good tutorial here, I would say..

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Mike Anthony 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Hansons

Good tutorial here, I would say..

For how to do SEO in the 90s. Its 2013
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Mike Anthony

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

Mike,if you think google algorithm dosen't store informations about the date when a backlink was found,I suggest you go and do your homeworks.

I suggest you go learn to read bro. I said Google doesn't store information on when a link WAS PLACED not when it was found/crawled.

I never said that google needs to find your backlinks in the same day

No you said million links one day and none the other and its impossible because Google would never find the million links in one day . It would be found over days. You missed the entire point.

Also,it's simply stupid to think that Google dosen't follow certain patterns to identify whatever a link profile was done naturally or artificially.It's not really good at doing it,but it's still the best search engine at the moment.

Its simple stupid to think that any algo can determine whether a link was left artificially or natural. Don't call people's statements stupid while making such silly statements.

Google does not give a rip about the patterns of your 10.000 link spams. Wake up and smell the coffee. I can see the spam team at Google sitting there with the programmers now

"We want you to identify 20,000 forum profiles on a vbulletin script as spammy but wait now....If they were left over a period of a month rather than a day then go easy on them because we respect the slow spammers who take time with their spam"

Yea,continue to belive what Matt Cutts says,unrelevant backlinks are simply ignored by the algorithm and there is no neg seo.

Is English your second language.? Seriously Its a legit question because NOWHERE did I mention ANYTHING about relevancy. IN practically every paragraph responding to me you are fabricating something never said.

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Mike Anthony

11 years ago

Originally Posted by InBrussels

Mate,you really dissapointed me when you said Link Velocity is a joke.It's actually a game changer for about 1-2 years...

If link velocity dosen't matter,why don't you build 10k backlinks in a day and wait for the results?
Makes sense right?

Sorry with Mike on the link velocity - No game changes and a total joke.

A) when the algo is updated its updated without reverence to the date of your site. So if say penguin is updated and it turns up the heat on people with 20,000 spam comments. sorry the site is going down no matter how fast or slow you built them - its an algo change. Just the sheer Idea that Google would be spending programmer dollars to figure out how slow or fast you spammed your links borders on unthinkable.

B) building 10,000 links in a day is crappy link building not because of quantity but because of the kinds of site links you have to use to get 10,000

C) Viral DOES prove link velocity isn't the big issue claimed. Your point here

Viral sites dosen't get penalised because they get a certain pattern,they don't get 1 mil backlinks in a day and zero the next one.

Doesn't work because there is NO WAY any site gets thousands of backlinks in one day and none the next from Google's vantage point. You are assuming that the day you build them Google finds them. It can be days later before they are indexed. You have to again believe Google has programmers wasting time and their salaried hours working out some algo to determine when the links were placed versus when they crawled them.

No - viral doesn't tank sites because among all the viral links there are good, high authority contextual links compared to a million bookmarks, spam comments and forum profile sigs. Has nothing to do with velocity but quality.

If he uses the disavow tool and draws the attention of a manual review,he can say bye bye forever to that domain,since in that case,not even a 301 will make a difference.

None of us have one clue about the kind of backlinks he had before getting the ones he knows nothing about. That makes all the difference. So you cannot possibly know that. No sense in scaring the OP or telling him without knowing his business to move to a new domain without having the facts to make that recommendation.

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nzrobert

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Yes it will. Did you miss all the tests people did trying to 301 their sites to new domains after getting blasted by Penguin last year? It pretty much all cases the site would regain rankings and then about 3 weeks later crash.

If so, I stand to be corrected - however I don't believe Google are even close to finding a bullet proof solution for this in that case.

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AmazonGuy 11 years ago

Mike imo is right , quality links arent easy to get so getting 10k in a day or 10k in a year makes no difference , google uses algo's which takes in account which site the link is placed on. Link velocity is more to stabilize where you are going to rank thats why alot of people misinterpret "slow" link velocity.

If lets say I get a ton of quality links in a day I would actually be losing my ranking and slowly but steadily after around 5-6 weeks get higher rankings then before , those rankings would stick as I said the links are quality (quality for me is getting an editorial link from site likes cnn-bbc-mashable-huffingtonpost and whatever site you can't directly place a link or can't pay to get one (theres always someone corrupt in every site lol).

If you do the same thing with crappy links blast fiverr packages etc you might just might get in the top 3 for like 3 seconds then disappear forever no matter if you do it slow or fast the effect will just be slower and then KABOUM cry on wf why your rankings have disappeared.
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Mike Anthony

11 years ago

Wow looks like 301 redirect is the new buzz SEO thing to do. I really don't see how anyone can say redirect to a new domain based on the OP. The whole point of a 301 redirect is to pass on the link juice to the new domain. If the site was penalized for links its crazy to say that its completely safe to do the 301. However not a soul here knows whether it was penalized.

Plus some of you are just completely ignoring that this is an ecommerce site 6 years old ranking for several years. Its fine to start over with affiliate pages and adsense sites but for most ecommerce sites with customers and reputation under a brand its not that simple.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING In the OP indicates he should do a 301, a new domain or anything else until either he knows more or we do.

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paulgl

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Wow looks like 301 redirect is the new buzz..

I predicted this. I kept noticing the plethora of 310 threads...started by
people who have no idea what a 301 was, is, or supposed to be used for.
But they heard something from a guy who knows a guy who lives in a
cave. So, they now toss around "301" like they've discovered how to
turn lead into gold.

Paul

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nzrobert

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

If I could get 10,000 good links in a day, I would take them in a second.

You are confusing link velocity with problems caused by low quality links. Generally, if you have 10,000 links coming in, it is probably from building a bunch of low quality links. That is a completely different problem and would catch up with you eventually whether you did it slowly or quickly.

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by paulgl

I predicted this. I kept noticing the plethora of 310 threads...started by
people who have no idea what a 301 was, is, or supposed to be used for.
But they heard something from a guy who knows a guy who lives in a
cave. So, they now toss around "301" like they've discovered how to
turn lead into gold.

Paul

Lol

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kindsvater

11 years ago

Getting back to the OP, I suggest building some quality backlinks on authority sites.

A month is getting to be a long time, but I have seen sites disappear for a few weeks, I'm wondering why the site is toast, and suddenly they come back as good as ever.

A couple solid backlinks may be needed to kickstart Google into re-evaluating and ranking your site. If there is a backlinking problem, good backlinks are one way to work on addressing the problem. Others have mentioned eliminating bad backlinks, but don't forget to address the other side of the equation: trustworthy links.

Every site gets bad backlinks through no fault of its own. Google knows that. But how many good backlinks do you have?

.

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oldsteel68

11 years ago

Jesus, i missed a lot. Im not going to post my link here. I hate posting my link in threads. If anyone want to take a peek for me, ill PM ya my link.

Mike

Thanks

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muxin

11 years ago

If you really want a helpful answer I think you should give your website URL, otherwise people here can only guess and speculate. At least you can pm some members that you can trust if you don't want to show it on your post.

Thanks

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