Do You Think War Room Membership Should Be Increased?

23 replies
I do.

Want reasons? Of course you do.

I'll give you two.

Increased Value

Now, I'm not saying the information in the War Room is without value. But the easy entrance to this forum will certainly dissuade many individuals from sharing information of the highest value. If you look around Warrior Forum, almost everyone carries the War Room title. Some information is sensitive to saturation and, therefore, the dissemination of it in the War Room is virtually no different than releasing it here, in public, where the public at large can erode its effectiveness to nil. A higher price tag for War Room membership would, in theory, lower the population of the forum and, again in theory, increase information quality.

Increased Trust

Yet again, we return to the issue of easy entrance. There are sharks swimming within the waters of our industry. Sharks, these kind, prey on the baby fish, the newcomers. The War Room moderation system is quite effective - you have a waiting period before your item is published - but the volume of submissions, due to the low price tag, must be cumbersome, and not only this, but surely some threads slip through the net. I must make it clear: I'm not saying any have slipped through the net. I haven't examined every thread. But logic dictates: if our industry is replete with finned predators, and if barriers to entry for the War Room are low, then could not the odd shark slip through the net? Perhaps more than one? Maybe more. A shiver of sharks? It's possible.

Cruelty to Newcomers

Ah, but GRM, how could you be so cruel to the newcomer (is it obvious that I hate the expression newbie?). Not at all. In fact, just the opposite is true. Have you noticed how most newcomers arrive with their credit cards in tow? Have you noticed how almost every last one knows that he or she must spend money to make money? Have you noticed how the WSO room usually has 5,000-plus viewers? Fact is: increasing the price would help the newcomer. Even if it meant saving up and waiting longer to enter. When the price could be afforded, he would have better information, safer information, and maybe not receive even a nip from an errant shark. Furthermore, it may actually increase the value of information in the public areas. Until the War Room price tag could be afforded, genuine people, honest folks, and intelligent folks, might be sharing their ideas in public, instead of behind closed doors.

And lastly...

I hesitate to post this thread. I truly would not wish anyone - particularly the owners of WF - to believe I think ill of the War Room. I like it. I think it has value. I do, however, think it can be improved. Can't everything? Speaking as someone who owns their own membership site, I understand how the best ideas cannot be made public. It sounds cruel, but it's just common sense. Saturation for some ideas does exist and, even despite it, I often share many ideas here and elsewhere that I know will be saturated. I do so because I know how some people need that information. The pity is that all information cannot be shared. But it just doesn't work that way. Sometimes the best information must be whispered, not shouted from the rooftops.

So those are my thoughts. What are yours?

(Prepares to dodge the rotten tomatos ... although, more likely, this thread will be deleted and I'll have wasted 5 minutes.)

GRM
#increased #membership #room #war
  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Over the past few months the cost of War Room membership has increased from $37 for 20 years to $20 per year, and then to $97 per year. Granted there have been some worthwhile additions, but I haven't noticed an appreciable improvement in the quality of posts over this period.

    If the War Room is to become the sort of select mastermind forum that many of us expected it to be, raising the cost of entry isn't the answer. The section needs to be restructured to encourage high level discussions, rather than remain a repository for old WSOs or giveaways of variable benefit as it has come to be.

    Such a format would require time-consuming, hands-on moderation, preferably by experienced marketers. Obviously, it's down to how the management see the section developing.

    But until the War Room starts attracting the kind of state-of-the-art exchange of ideas and strategies suggested by its name, any further price increase isn't going to help, IMO.


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  • Profile picture of the author kilgore
    Make the war room more expensive? By all means, do so; it wouldn't bother me one bit. I've never bought access to it and don't plan on ever doing so no matter the price.

    That said, I disagree with your two arguments:
    1. That fewer people would mean greater quality. Admittedly, I've never even been to the war room, but I just don't see the causal connection between fewer people posting and better posting quality. Probably you'd just get fewer posts which would make the forum seem inactive. This would then drive more people to the free forums -- because my sense is that most people who really know what they're talking about post because of what they expect to get out of the forums for themselves, but rather because they simply find posting to be a fun way to pass the time. And it's not very fun to talk to yourself.
    2. That a more expensive war room would bring increased trust. Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Even if there's a price barrier to joining the war room, it's still a very public forum by virtue of the fact that anyone with the requisite cash can join. And given that I have no control over who that is, I certainly wouldn't post anything there that I wouldn't here, even if it cost $1,000/day to join.
    Personally, I think they should charge as much or as little for the war room as they need to in order to maximize their profits -- I'll leave it to the folks over at Freelancer to do their own market research.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    (I'll do my best to lay down some further thoughts. It's been one of those hectic days and I've been up for 17 hours.)

    Frank and Kilgore: you both make some superb points; valid points, too.

    Over the years, I've established a handful of similar platforms - I'll borrow from Frank and call them mastermind forums, though one was based around a group script, if that even matters (not really) - and, to get them right, it involved quite a lot of experimentation, testing, analyzing, so forth. Which isn't to say I have any answers; just opinions.

    Before I give in to tiredness, I just want to address two elements: price and incentive.

    Price

    What is the War Room? Among other things: a place where people who know how to make money share what they know. If the price is increased, what happens? The people who can afford it, and who wish to enter (more on that in a moment), will indeed enter. And, further, if they make sufficient money to enter, at this higher price, maybe they have knowledge that allows them to make a high income. So - the theory goes - you will attract a higher level of information. Now, even though I'm proposing this, hypothesizing, I don't completely agree with it as a general, all-encompassing rule. There are, for instance, people who are just starting out, who have limited information, who are in possession of a killer system; they just have yet to take full advantage of it. And it would be a bad move to limit their access. But such people are not the majority. So it's a case of making a tough decision that isn't completely right, but will likely work out right as a whole.

    Incentive

    Frank, you brought this up: "If the War Room is to become the sort of select mastermind forum that many of us expected it to be, raising the cost of entry isn't the answer. The section needs to be restructured to encourage high level discussions, rather than remain a repository for old WSOs or giveaways of variable benefit as it has come to be." You're right, of course. This, more than my own suggestion about price, is the real key. Yes, some of the time most of us can be altruistic, but when all is said and done, we like a little return. Admittedly, I don't use WF for business, or for traffic, since there are infinitely better ways to generate traffic - and if they exist, you can bet I utilize them. But, for the same reason I have a sig, it's ingrained in me to employ business sense, and using a sig is just that. The same applies to the War Room. Give people an incentive to share high-level methods and maybe they will. But - for a return.

    GRM
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    • Profile picture of the author IgniteFeed
      My thoughts are mixed. I really do support that as long as there is value added. They could create a Mastermind type of offering. Again the content and value additions have to be there, but a more distinct layer of marketers makes sense overall. I may of course change my mind again. Hmmm..perhaps I should have ran for office?
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    • Profile picture of the author nysurrahman
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The reason the War Room (which is fairly recent addition to the forum - considering the age of the forum) has as many members as it does is this:

        -When it was launched quite a few of us long timers were given access.

        -No one could run a WSO unless they belonged to the War Room and many who joined did it only for that reason.

        The War Room - with the exception of Allen's excellent works (don't even know if that's still on the forum) - is nothing but a collection of freebies. About 80% of the posts there are "thank you for this..." In order to maintain quality, War Room threads were monitored and approved before they appeared....good to prevent spam but not conducive to discussion as it took a while for thread approval.

        That section has never been the "be all" that some have represented. At $37 it was a deal - at $20 a year, still a good deal. At $97 - I wouldn't join it.

        The War Room has never been a mastermind section - that was the Alliance many years ago...for a while. That was a membership with limited entry and a waiting list. The only qualifier for membership in the War Room is payment of a fee so the brain trust in the War Room is no greater than in the rest of the forum.

        The main forum used to have long, involved and detailed threads about building a business, launching or promoting a site, details of IM by people who had been there/done that. Now it's a newbie forum with a globally diverse population. There are a few experienced marketers who do answer questions there - and more than a few MMO-focus marketers who see a high lemming population.

        My suggestion is that people enjoy the WF for what it is and learn what they can from the experienced marketers here. No sense in trying to reinvent a wheel on a car you don't own.
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  • Profile picture of the author Khemosabi
    I agree with Kay. The War Room was once perceived as a secret place that people who joined could get secret information. That was my perception of it.

    Before joining this forum, I stalked it for at least a year. The "War Room Member" under a member's avatar (to me) gave them more credibility. That title also said something else to me, that any member with that title was here for the long haul. Now, it's just a title that means a member paid to post a WSO.

    Increasing the membership isn't going to do a damned thing, honestly. This is a new forum, new owners, new ways.

    I see many long time members posting less. What's worse is many great members just disappeared. There are many reasons, but from what I have read, it has become increasingly more frustrating to participate. Reporting isn't being taken care of, more and more spam, link dropping... the list goes on and on.

    To be fair, I don't think Freelancer is messing this up. In fact, I think this was/is their plan. Here's a silly analogy that my husband used when he owned his businesses. He owned upper scale sports lounges. We had a dress code and higher prices, but we offered a lot of value. He was asked why he didn't sell T-shirts. His response was that he didn't want any Joe Blow walking around with his businesses on them, advertising. If you think about that for a minute, it will make sense.

    When he sold them, the new owner did just the opposite of what my husband did. He let in all of the people who had been previously asked to leave, didn't take the care to upkeep the places and within one year, lost both of them. Yes, at first the new owner made a huge profit, but the businesses soon became "dives".... Now, we can all buy a Warrior Forum T-shirt.

    This is no longer a place that serious (mostly) new comers (I hate the word "newbie" too) can come and learn about making money online and offline. It's now just a marketing forum. I believe that is the direction that Freelancer wants to go. Signature exposure, repeated posts, asking really silly questions for post count, it's just so frustrating.

    All we can do is wait and see where Freelancer takes this place. It is, their forum now.

    ~ Theresa
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Sometimes I don't know which forum people have been visiting the last few years

      The problem with the War room is not price, its not keeping out anyone, its lack of incentive and it has ZERO to do with new ownership which seems to be the scapegoat of the the year for all things that have been wrong for years.

      WF has always been a marketing forum and occupied by marketers. The war room value is based on the past. People would post their good stuff there because as marketers they all wanted to build a list and their rep. That was the incentive because if you put your best out there then you got the eyes and the rep to later do a launch. if you put crap people would ask you in the threads why they even bothered and opt out of your list

      Well some people started complaining about opt ins (marketers complaining about opt ins?) and it became the new rule (NOT implemented by new ownership but the old one) that you couldn't ask for an opt in instead you were just supposed to give away things out of the goodness of your heart or some vacuous often used cliche about "giving back to the community"

      Got that? OLD ownership took away from marketers the most compelling INCENTIVE to post their best stuff. Predictably although everyone was filled with gratitude for the change high fiving and giving thanks to old ownership marketers who would have offered their best stuff reconsidered and lost interest - within a year only the old stuff was worth visiting. So it got sunk by marketers who didn't compute marketer's incentive.

      Want to see in there rock again? give marketers a clear incentive. Simple basic human psychology.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Sometimes I don't know which forum people have been visiting the last few years

        The problem with the War room is not price, its not keeping out anyone, its lack of incentive and it has ZERO to do with new ownership which seems to be the scapegoat of the the year for all things that have been wrong for years.

        WF has always been a marketing forum and occupied by marketers. The war room value is based on the past. People would post their good stuff there because as marketers they all wanted to build a list and their rep. That was the incentive because if you put your best out there then you got the eyes and the rep to later do a launch. if you put crap people would ask you in the threads why they even bothered and opt out of your list

        Well some people started complaining about opt ins (marketers complaining about opt ins?) and it became the new rule (NOT implemented by new ownership but the old one) that you couldn't ask for an opt in instead you were just supposed to give away things out of the goodness of your heart or some vacuous often used cliche about "giving back to the community"

        Got that? OLD ownership took away from marketers the most compelling INCENTIVE to post their best stuff. Predictably although everyone was filled with gratitude for the change high fiving and giving thanks to old ownership marketers who would have offered their best stuff reconsidered and lost interest - within a year only the old stuff was worth visiting. So it got sunk by marketers who didn't compute marketer's incentive.

        Want to see in there rock again? give marketers a clear incentive. Simple basic human psychology.
        I think the problem with allowing the opt-ins was that people were giving away giant piles of worthless crap just to get subscribers. Unless you are going to have someone look through the offers and judge their quality, which would never make any sense, you are going to have that problem again.

        I think the thought behind getting rid of the opt-ins was that people were not going to waste their time unless they really wanted to give away something decent because they were not getting much in return except maybe a chance to build their own reputation.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

          Unless you are going to have someone look through the offers and judge their quality, which would never make any sense, you are going to have that problem again.
          I don't know how you can say that when in fact it made sense for quite some time when that was exactly what was done. second there are creative ways to lower the manpower costs of doing just that. Again the thanks metric in totally underutilized. War room member who have cut their teeth providing info and answers with enough thanks can be considered. That drastically cut the works for mods

          I think the thought behind getting rid of the opt-ins was that people were not going to waste their time unless they really wanted to give away something decent because they were not getting much in return except maybe a chance to build their own reputation.
          I don't know where you were my man but thats just false. Many people who offered quality got back a lot. I can think of one marketer right now that made his business for years based on providing a series of decent War room offers that were very well received and from which he was able to have a list and do a launch. Optins were NOT removed because marketers offering things in there didn't want them but because marketers were squealing about having to opt in (lol while requiring the very same thing on their own sites)

          At any rate its just an undeniable fact of life. You take away incentive then people say why bother. If your thesis was even right then it should have been totally expected that if you take away even the little by way of building a list the quality was going to drop and it wasn't going to improve anything. It was a lousy move and the quality took a dive shortly after.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I don't know how you can say that when in fact it made sense for quite some time when that was exactly what was done. second there are creative ways to lower the manpower costs of doing just that. Again the thanks metric in totally underutilized. War room member who have cut their teeth providing info and answers with enough thanks can be considered. That drastically cut the works for mods
            Thanks counts are silly to base anything off of. Besides, if you do that, some idiots will just start writing scripts to automate "thanks". Heck, it will probably be a WSO.

            The problem with moderators judging the quality of the offers is that none of them are qualified to judge if an SEO offer is good or bad. Just like I could read 10 copywriting offers and not make heads or tails of most of them. You're asking moderators to be experts in all the IM fields if you do that, and that is just plain unrealistic.

            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I don't know where you were my man but thats just false. Many people who offered quality got back a lot. I can think of one marketer right now that made his business for years based on providing a series of decent War room offers that were very well received and from which he was able to have a list and do a launch. Optins were NOT removed because marketers offering things in there didn't want them but because marketers were squealing about having to opt in (lol while requiring the very same thing on their own sites)

            At any rate its just an undeniable fact of life. You take away incentive then people say why bother. If your thesis was even right then it should have been totally expected that if you take away even the little by way of building a list the quality was going to drop and it wasn't going to improve anything. It was a lousy move and the quality took a dive shortly after.
            The section was long on a steady decline. There were a lot of offers where people would post total junk, sign up for your typical circle-jerk of IM'ers, and get a bunch of people saying great things about the offer to drive more and more signups.

            They decided to make a change and get rid of that incentive hoping it would keep people from exploiting the War Room to drive opt-ins. It fixed one problem, but the quality continued to decline.

            That's all that happened. It's really not more complicated than that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

              Thanks counts are silly to base anything off of.
              ridiculous Mike. Think. We already have limits based on post counts and thats much easier to game. so claiming thank count which is harder to game is silly to use for anything is well..just silly in itself. Plus how many gamers are going to go to that trouble to submit their crappy offers to be rejected anyway. People who game seldom even create products. As before the silly removal of incentive the only way people were interested is if they thought they could build rep which you can't do just by putting up crap and even gamers knows that . Shucks most bot users just as most spammers won't even pay the $97

              Fact is everything you are irrationally claiming is impossible WAS what was done before - just plain fact.

              Furthermore the whole idea that you are going to continue to sell membership to an area based on content that you are not going to have to moderate is just ridiculous You are going too have to do it anyway.

              removing incentive for people to post quality to the war room no matter how you spin it solved nothing and based on basic logic of human nature added to the decline.

              The problem with moderators judging the quality of the offers is that none of them are qualified to judge if an SEO offer is good or bad. Just like I could read 10 copywriting offers and not make heads or tails of most of them. You're asking moderators to be experts in all the IM fields if you do that, and that is just plain unrealistic.
              Mike once again you are off the mark. People buy books and pdfs on copy writing PRECISELY because they do not know the subject. They buy PDFs on SEO for the exact same reason. So in WSOs how do people determine whether the PDfs were worth it? Simple elementary and easy - by what they LEARNED from it. So no - strawman argument - I would not be asking mods to be experts in all fields or any. They can determine the worth of a submission the same way people come to conclusions that a WSO was beneficial to them - what they learned from it. What you are claiming is akin to saying that a college student can't determine a geology professor is a good teacher unless they are geologists themselves yet they do it at every campus in every discipline.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

              Thanks counts are silly to base anything off of. Besides, if you do that, some idiots will just start writing scripts to automate "thanks". Heck, it will probably be a WSO.
              yeah, I have to agree. Just go down in the OT forum and see how many Bozos have 2,000+ Thanks after giving "high Fives" to their cronies after talking about having sex with Aliens or how their dog can pee in its owners mouth blindfolded. lol

              It's ridiculous, really


              - Robert Andrew
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                Yeah, I have to agree. Just go down in the OT forum and see how many Bozos have 2,000+ Thanks after giving "high Fives" to their cronies after talking about having sex with Aliens or how their dog can pee in its owners mouth blindfolded. lol
                - Robert Andrew
                lol....Now there is a valid point but then I am for nuking that whole section anyway. Reading some of the stuff there is just mind boggling
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  lol....Now there is a valid point but then I am for nuking that whole section anyway. Reading some of the stuff there is just mind boggling
                  LOL. Yeah, Mike but honestly it is a good release to get down there and just have fun. I do it. I admit it. Just to blow off some steam.

                  But some people down there are seemingly addicted to it. Not sure how they get any work done
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Oh i wasn't talking about the light hearted stuff but the deadly serious conspiracy stuff

                    I stand by my "Thanks" idea though. Of course anything can be gamed but by and large all respected members here have a high thank count and few spammers/shills do. That can't be said for any other metric the forum has.

                    Nothing silly about it - even with the people in the OT section counted in it would be the exception rather than the rule.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      Seems to me some people worry about things that don't matter - or aren't their business to worry about. What's the point? Don't like the OT - don't go down there. Of course there's some nutty stuff there - it's fun. Quite a few people there used to be highly active helping out "upstairs" but rather than leave the forum have retired to the basement instead. Minding our own business down there - others should do the same.

                      It doesn't matter if someone thinks the war room should cost more - or if another person thinks it's worth the price. Doesn't matter how many people are visiting categories or what the rules should be.

                      It's corporate owned and corporate run now - and I'm sure it's being done in the way the corporate owners prefer. I don't understand why a few members are using this new forum style to bash other members or try to dictate what others can or should do.

                      Do your own thing here - and don't try to control what others do. That's the way to peaceful coexistence in life or on a forum.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        Seems to me some people worry about things that don't matter - or aren't their business to worry about.
                        You mean like the incidental opinions of two people in a discussion not in the OT section that you are worrying about? You mean like that?


                        I don't understand why a few members are using this new forum style to bash other members or try to dictate what others can or should do.
                        .
                        The irony is strong with this one.
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                      • Profile picture of the author discrat
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        Do your own thing here - and don't try to control what others do. That's the way to peaceful coexistence in life or on a forum.
                        Who is trying to control what others do here ?? It is just people expressing their opinions on different matters.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                          The War Room was not announced as a place to "list your product free here to build your list fast". It was supposed to be "a private forum for elite marketers" - and only grew due to being a requirement for running WSOs or having more PM space. It wasn't the first "private" or "expert" forum section that's been launched on the WF but it's the first that required only $$ for entry.

                          The forced optins took over the War Room. True, in the beginning there were real and valuable products offered there. Opting in was a no brainer. Before long, the products were old WSOs that had run their course - or short, useless "reports" meant to build a list.

                          Not only were sellers building their lists from the same puddle of marketers here - some of the marketers "giving" products away were also selling the lists they were building. I could be wrong but I figured that was the reason opt ins went away.
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                          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
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                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            It was supposed to be "a private forum for elite marketers" -
                            Now it's just a contest to see who can keep their thread bumped the longest.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Khemosabi View Post


      This is no longer a place that serious (mostly) new comers (I hate the word "newbie" too) can come and learn about making money online and offline. It's now just a marketing forum. I believe that is the direction that Freelancer wants to go. Signature exposure, repeated posts, asking really silly questions for post count, it's just so frustrating.

      All we can do is wait and see where Freelancer takes this place. It is, their forum now.

      ~ Theresa
      Funny, since my first day here I have always considered WF a Marketing Forum. Thats what WF was intended to be......... to learn about how to Market and make money Online.

      What better way to do this then to actually experience and be exposed to other Marketers who directly Market on this Forum.

      It has been a wonderful learning experience and INVALUABLE in my IM journey to see these expert Marketers in Action here .


      Robert Andrew
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      • Profile picture of the author Khemosabi
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Funny, since my first day here I have always considered WF a Marketing Forum. Thats what WF was intended to be......... to learn about how to Market and make money Online.

        What better way to do this then to actually experience and be exposed to other Marketers who directly Market on this Forum.

        It has been a wonderful learning experience and INVALUABLE in my IM journey to see these expert Marketers in Action here .


        Robert Andrew
        I'm not sure you read my post correctly. I said exactly what you said (bolded). It was a great learning experience, not so much now. The "marketing" has taken over the learning.

        I also stated that a lot of the great members are not here any longer. The great ones that are still left, or getting discouraged from helping. Your "expert Marketers in Action", is past tense. That was YOUR experience.

        I have also noticed a lot of new, frustrated members. They simply are not getting the help that was once so readily available here.

        ~ Theresa
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    No --> $99 a year for new members is more than plenty.

    Cheers

    -don
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