So You Think You Are a Web Designer?

23 replies
  • WEB DESIGN
  • |
Just because you know how to use software, that does not make you a web designer.

A real web designer can code by hand...using nothing but Notepad!

People are getting ripped off by designers who claim they are creating custom websites or custom WordPress themes, and they are not. They are using Artisteer, and some of them are trying to cleverly disguise that fact. But not everyone is a fool. Some of us know what to look for!

You might think, what's wrong with Artisteer? It's a really good time and money saver. Yeah...sure...so was MS FrontPage - complete with ugly bloated code that slows your web pages down. And nothing spells unprofessional like a site designed with FrontPage...sorry...but it's true.

So now we have the modern day FrontPage: Artisteer...
and the designs and themes that it generates seem pretty nice, until you look "under the hood".

here's typical code you can find in an Artisteer generated theme, for example:
Code:
<div class="BlockContent">
    <div class="BlockContent-tl"></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-tr"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-bl"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-br"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-tc"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-bc"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-cl"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-cr"><div></div></div>
    <div class="BlockContent-cc"></div>
see all those extra empty "divs"?
yep...bloated code! and that's just some code on one of the theme's php files. There's a lot more of that crap code on every single theme file...

So why this rant? I want people hiring web designers and paying for custom work, to know what they are getting. Don't get ripped off. If a designer is going to use Artisteer..you may as well buy the program yourself, and generate your own sites, that is if you don't really care about quality...
#designer #web
  • Profile picture of the author Adam Jackson
    Thanks for posting this Karen. As you know, I've been had by a so called designer. Thankfully I have you to come to my rescue.

    Adam
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      hey Adam, it's been my pleasure helping you out. Best of luck with your site! You have a winner, there, I think!
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    • Profile picture of the author gfonline
      Hey Karen. i am new to this forum and your post was one the first I read. It hit home with me because I have been learning design and code and am quickly learning, there is a lot to learn! I have made the decision to keep learning, but my online businesses i am starting can't wait that long. I have determined the best route for me is to work with a designer/programmer that can help me expedite the site designs I need but also be willing to teach me along the way. I know this is probably a designers nightmare but I was hoping you might point me in the direction to find someone like that.

      I am using CS4 web design suite at this point, including Dreamweaver.
      thanks in advance!
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        here's a great way to learn:

        join an open source web design community...and ask questions in the forum there

        I belong to a few of them but the one where most of us "old-timer" open source web designers hang out at is at GetFreeWebDesigns

        Become a member, download the free designs, and start taking them apart and creating your own.

        by the way..we design XHTML and CSS templates and we use NO tables except for tabular data...a lot of our templates then get ported into WordPress themes too.

        Start creating and distributing your own free templates. Make sure you have a website up (a WordPress blog is strongly recommended)

        once your templates get downloaded more and more...it will become viral for you...I mean talk about instant backlinks! Because most people are kind enough to leave the link to your site in the footer

        anyway...hope to see you there and in the meantime..please feel free to contact me with any questions you might have

        ps..welcome to this forum !
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        • Profile picture of the author erwindegrave
          Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

          here's a great way to learn:

          join an open source web design community...and ask questions in the forum there

          I belong to a few of them but the one where most of us "old-timer" open source web designers hang out at is at GetFreeWebDesigns

          Become a member, download the free designs, and start taking them apart and creating your own.

          by the way..we design XHTML and CSS templates and we use NO tables except for tabular data...a lot of our templates then get ported into WordPress themes too.

          Start creating and distributing your own free templates. Make sure you have a website up (a WordPress blog is strongly recommended)

          once your templates get downloaded more and more...it will become viral for you...I mean talk about instant backlinks! Because most people are kind enough to leave the link to your site in the footer

          anyway...hope to see you there and in the meantime..please feel free to contact me with any questions you might have

          ps..welcome to this forum !
          Hi there,

          Thanks for the website link.. My designer would love to be part of it.. I need him to be more skillful and better :-)
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          Erwin de Grave
          Success Coach & Internet Marketer
          www.MassiveAffiliateIncome.com
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        • Profile picture of the author scrofford
          Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

          here's a great way to learn:

          join an open source web design community...and ask questions in the forum there

          I belong to a few of them but the one where most of us "old-timer" open source web designers hang out at is at GetFreeWebDesigns

          Become a member, download the free designs, and start taking them apart and creating your own.

          by the way..we design XHTML and CSS templates and we use NO tables except for tabular data...a lot of our templates then get ported into WordPress themes too.

          Start creating and distributing your own free templates. Make sure you have a website up (a WordPress blog is strongly recommended)

          once your templates get downloaded more and more...it will become viral for you...I mean talk about instant backlinks! Because most people are kind enough to leave the link to your site in the footer

          anyway...hope to see you there and in the meantime..please feel free to contact me with any questions you might have

          ps..welcome to this forum !
          I am just curious...What do you think of Microsoft Expression Web2? I have been learning that and it can be a pain sometimes, but I am not sure if it has all of the extra crap in it that you were talking about.
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          • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
            there are some really great comments here..of course it's great to have software to cut down on the work...but you have to be careful what software you use, again, because of the bloated code that some software can output. I love Notepad++ because it supports all markup and tons of programming languages...and it's pure clean code
            For open source software, I'd have to give it a 9.5/10

            Steve, I'm not familiar with MS Expression Web. I do not like MS software too much...I'd have to take a look at the source code of a web page designed using Expression Web, and I could tell you in 2 seconds whether the code it outputs is bloated. I willing to bet it is, knowing MS :rolleyes:

            I know most people really don't care as long as the web page works...but they actually should. Nice clean code means your web page loads really quickly. If your web page loads quickly, you're more likely to keep that visitor happy
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            • Profile picture of the author cdwise
              Expression Web will not bloat your code unless you insist on using its "behaviors" which are there only for minimal backwards compatability for those migrating from FP.

              If you use its templating system (DWTs) you will see a few extra comments in the code to define the editable regions but pages are valid. Recommend not going click happy on the format toolbar but its css tools are very good particularly if you stick to the Task Panes. This is one of the free Expression Web templates we offer Expression WEb The Club at Paradise Beach Template you can check the code on and here is another O'Bannon
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              • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                Originally Posted by cdwise View Post

                Expression Web will not bloat your code unless you insist on using its "behaviors" which are there only for minimal backwards compatability for those migrating from FP.

                If you use its templating system (DWTs) you will see a few extra comments in the code to define the editable regions but pages are valid. Recommend not going click happy on the format toolbar but its css tools are very good particularly if you stick to the Task Panes. This is one of the free Expression Web templates we offer Expression WEb The Club at Paradise Beach Template you can check the code on and here is another O'Bannon
                not bad at all I like the fairly clean code! I would just get rid of the empty <style></style> tags and it would be perfect!
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  • Profile picture of the author VisualWebEffects
    Hey Karen,

    Interesting view point. As a Web Designer (Not Actively Doing Web Design so much any more, have gone back to Programming ) i can appreciate your thoughts.

    I tried the demo of Artiseer, and then looked under the hood as you did, and my first thought was WTFH is all this SH**. Why so much bloat code???? I never understood that with Frontpage. In the past i had plenty of clients come to me after going through the frontpage 'horror' to do a site cleanup.

    now as much as i agree that there is to much html in the artisteer generated themes/pages, i did do a full workup on the code. lets look at what you posted as an example of it.

    Code:
    <div class="BlockContent-tl"></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-tr"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-bl"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-br"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-tc"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-bc"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-cl"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-cr"><div></div></div>
        <div class="BlockContent-cc"></div>
    now looking at that - one would think OMFG!!!!!!!!

    but, yeah i am sure you saw this coming ....

    these div's preform way better for the page than putting an image in their place. These div's provide the rounded corners in the document where you would see them in a Pure Valid CSS 2.1 manner with no images.

    I am not dismissing what you said, because it is true, too much code. There is better ways to do this with less code overhead and less images used.

    Another thing that just bugs the crap out of me with these generated themes is if you open one up in Dreamweaver it is a complete goggled F*&*&*& mess. A Real designer has the websites they make look exactly the same from platform to platform. Whether your viewing it in Dreamweaver, Chrome, FF, IE, Safari, or any others i missed.

    I design that way, and i can't stand it when i see a design that does not do this. Call it one of my major pet peeves.

    I do however think that Artisteer is a nifty program and great fun to play with. A designers tool? no, not even close. Artiseer is ment for the none Designer.

    A great tool all in all, but i do hope they streamline the generated HTML markup in future versions.
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    VisualWebEffects- Web Application Development, PC Software Development and Identity Design services
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      hi Visual, you are quite right about the rounded corners...but I do believe there's a better way to do it and certainly a way to eliminate the empty divs which make the page not validate


      what I am most angry about is people being charged for custom web design work and not getting what they paid for...my client paid for custom work and got an Artisteer-generated WordPress theme...and I have a sneaky feeling that he's going to have more problems with it once WordPress upgrades to 2.9...

      yeah...Artisteer is a great tool for the hobbyist, I suppose
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  • Profile picture of the author mysteryleo
    Hey Karen -

    I agree people need to understand what they're getting, but I imagine for most people, they don't need hardcore web developers. As long as they get version 1 of their product out, I think most people are good.

    No need to pay for a premium. Now if you're hiring someone instead of contracting work, or your project is going to go through lots of iterations, I would start to worry.

    Moreso if I was hiring someone onto the team.

    Thoughts?
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    I agree with you Karen.

    I used to write HTML, ASP & VB Script using Notepad back in the 1990's, these days I use text editors like Ultra Edit and PS Pad to write PHP, JavaScript and CSS. For me this is the only way to code, I really have no need for a WYSIWYG environment (it's just as easy to upload it to my development server and look at it with a web browser)

    I have worked on a number of sites for Warriors and other clients where the code had been written using FrontPage, Microsoft Word or NVU. In all cases it's a mess, HTML with style sheets embedded on the same page and extremely bloated. Often I'm working to clear up problems that the original designer couldn't deal with, with code like that I'm not surprised!

    For a "quick and dirty" Under Construction page this stuff might suffice, but it has no place in a production web site.

    As Google starts to take page load time into account when ranking a page I think you'll see a return to the time when every byte saved counts. And that will separate true web developers from hacks who own Artisteer, FrontPage and other WYSIWYG design platforms.

    Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author Lambert Klein
    I use to code by hand in a text editor. Even programed in Assembly Language ( Machine Language) when we only had DOS.

    I can't imagine coding completely by hand now though. It seems pretty tedious and you can't really see what you are doing.

    I do go to "code mode" though to tweet things.

    Lambert
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    WordPress Domination: from Beginner to Ninja in 7 Days http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007LS0TLE

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  • Profile picture of the author lharding
    Hi, hasn't this happened with the software development industry period. Clients want more for less and they want it now. You can understand how these products appear. They meet the demand to use less skilled people to do more work for less money.

    I hand write all my code, but then I come from the background where programmers new how to program rather than "glue" stuff together. The problem is if I outsourced I'd bitch about the price and the timescale. If you want handcrafted HTML/css/java etc you pay the price. Unfortunately most people won't pay that price.

    So software development has taken the same route as most things... Mass produced crap.

    People, you get what you pay for. If you want cheap, then expect nothing else.

    Cheers, Lee
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    Lee Harding
    The Architect
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  • Profile picture of the author lharding
    Hi, hasn't this happened with the software development industry period. Clients want more for less and they want it now. You can understand how these products appear. They meet the demand to use less skilled people to do more work for less money.

    I hand write all my code, but then I come from the background where programmers new how to program rather than "glue" stuff together. The problem is if I outsourced I'd bitch about the price and the timescale. If you want handcrafted HTML/css/java etc you pay the price. Unfortunately most people won't pay that price.

    So software development has taken the same route as most things... Mass produced crap.

    People, you get what you pay for. If you want cheap, then expect nothing else.

    Cheers, Lee
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    Lee Harding
    The Architect
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by lharding View Post

      People, you get what you pay for. If you want cheap, then expect nothing else.

      Cheers, Lee
      bingo! people like to save money...but I don't know, is it really worth it in the end?
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      • Profile picture of the author karnaksnr
        Hello Karen,

        This is really aimed at the people who know about programming.

        I know I,m not a web designer but I can design a website.
        Yes I can put out a website, eventually and it earns me money,eventually.

        My question is. Is it reasonable to assume the time, effort and
        money it takes me to produce a website as a person who has limited
        knowledge and learning on a daily basis, can be recovered a darn
        site quicker if I outsource it to a professional trusted person?
        e.g. Warrior Member!

        I'm fairly new to this forum so I apologise if I am in the wrong
        thread but reading all the info here I'm glad to be wrong.

        Regards to All

        Edward
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          Originally Posted by karnaksnr View Post

          Hello Karen,

          This is really aimed at the people who know about programming.

          I know I,m not a web designer but I can design a website.
          Yes I can put out a website, eventually and it earns me money,eventually.

          My question is. Is it reasonable to assume the time, effort and
          money it takes me to produce a website as a person who has limited
          knowledge and learning on a daily basis, can be recovered a darn
          site quicker if I outsource it to a professional trusted person?
          e.g. Warrior Member!

          I'm fairly new to this forum so I apologise if I am in the wrong
          thread but reading all the info here I'm glad to be wrong.

          Regards to All

          Edward
          If it takes you a tremendous amount of time and effort to do something and you are able to outsource it, then yes, I suggest outsourcing.
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  • Profile picture of the author HomeComputerGames
    I still have nightmares about the people that I have dealt with that attempted to design a site with a WYSIWYG editor and came to me wanting functionality added to the site. And when you explain that everything that they have done has to be reworked they begin squawking that they already have a site.

    From a developers end sometimes it is just better to walk away from these.
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    yes, I am....

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    • Profile picture of the author VicFranks
      @HomeComputerGames

      Indeed - walk away, just walk away.
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  • Profile picture of the author 723Media
    I've been a designer/developer for a long time now and I've made this same rant so many times that I just don't anymore.

    There are several reasons why but the main one is that our clients unfortunately just don't care. They want a site up and they want it up as fast as possible.

    That's why third party component suppliers and projects like WordPress and Visual Studio are so successful. They let people focus on the immediate gratification part of building software and websites.

    Ive worked with "web designers" who could open Photoshop and turn out amazing mockups yet never write a single line of markup.

    There are varying levels to this argument too.

    Over my career I made my focus front end engineering for the web. I personally prefer to seperate everything into its own layer. This means my html files are only html, any js functionality goes into a seperate js layer, any backend development is seperated into its own layer, which has several layers of seperation of it's own.

    Because of this, it takes me a bit longer than other "designers" to get a site out. Since it takes me longer, these other designers do more work.

    Like any other creative venture, it becomes a labor of love to a degree. I love to finish a site and see that everything is seperated and marked up to the point that I can just add a specific element to the page and my js will recognize it and automatically apply the correct behaviors.

    My clients however, dont care about that.

    Real design is an art. Like any other art form, to truly appreciate it, you have to truly understand it. You can like the way it looks and not understand it. That's an unfortunate fact with web design too.

    It sucks but just keep doing things the right way. As designers, we will always have to face these drag and drop designers and a company owner's niece or nephew who can dezine websitez in like 2 hourz.
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  • Profile picture of the author Baguadude
    No big deal about the tool you use as long as your client is happy with the product he purchased.
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