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Maintaining Large Websites (input wanted)

by AprilMSU
18 replies
  • WEB DESIGN
    • |
There is a debate regards to the best way to maintain a large website with 10,000 + web pages (school related) how to maintain the site to allow global changes (header, menu, footer).

All of the pages are currently designed in htm built using Dreamweaver template. The downfall of maintaining the site using this system is that when you make changes to Templates (Master or nested) templates on Dreamweaver, you have to upload every file on the site using the template.

I am looking for other alternatives (if possible how to maintain the site with global change option) keeping the htm file extension.

Ideas? If you would prefer to use serverside includes such as asp, php, or shtml do share, and tell me why.
#input #large #maintaining #wanted #websites
  • Profile picture of the author Entrecon
    My suggestion is to always go with a CMS, if I remember correctly Drupal is big in the education community, but Wordpress and Joomla are good options as well.

    As far as staying with the HTML and updating stylistics items across the site, I would think you should be using CSS. I don't believe you need to re-upload everything as long as everything is correctly defined in the CSS. When the page loads it looks at the CSS and just pulls the updates from there.
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
      Hello,
      Thank you for your input. At this time it appears that we will be using this system (CMS) OmniUpdate - Home

      I have so many questions but no real answers but I do know this CMS will impliment any programming language for the site. At this time we have over 10,000 pages on this website built using Dreamweaver Tempalte. Sadly it takes too long to update things like the header and footer. The site also has duplicated template in every folder (do not ask me why). I have tried to create a master tempalte on the root of the site, but with that many pages and materials on the site it takes DW over 20 minutes to cache the files to update the template changes!

      The school wants to keep the pages in HTML. They also want an easier and quicker way to perform global changes. I personally would just go with ASP includes but that would require changing 10,000 pages from htm to asp. I don't think they will go for that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sam Zachuth
    It is 2014, where have you been for the past 18 years? Content Management Systems were invented a long time ago. If there is a 10,000 page site done with all static HTML, I feel sorry for the poor chap who has to convert that all to a new CMS... Ugh! Talk about laborious! Even if it is just as simple as; create a new page in the CMS then copy old text and paste... not to mention formatting, uploading pictures, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
      That poor chap is me. Right now I am debating trying to push the site out of using DW templates, the site is simply too big. I do know we will be using the CMS OmniUpdate - Home

      I am unsure how the global will work with this CMS as I haven't gotten a lot of information on this system. I do know they use xml and inc files. We are currently working on the template to be implimented to the CMS. The template is done in responsive design.

      I am going to assume that the CMS we will be using will allow our site to be static so we can continue to use html (htm) extension. Right now I am at the start of creating a root template for this new responsive and believe me, this process is hell, pure hell.

      Originally Posted by Sam Zachuth View Post

      It is 2014, where have you been for the past 18 years? Content Management Systems were invented a long time ago. If there is a 10,000 page site done with all static HTML, I feel sorry for the poor chap who has to convert that all to a new CMS... Ugh! Talk about laborious! Even if it is just as simple as; create a new page in the CMS then copy old text and paste... not to mention formatting, uploading pictures, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam Zachuth
        It indeed sounds like hell... Plus I don't know about the html extension... kind of useless to be honest. Why is there a need for that? Static? Do you know what you mean? Static = it is not on a CMS, dynamic = it is on a CMS. I think it would benefit you, if you learned a little more about content management before going face first into this.

        It seems like you are over complicating an already complicated issue, by using a weird CMS and convoluted practices. You also seem to lack the understanding needed to make this process as painless as possible. A CMS should make things a lot easier, just copying and pasting all of the old content over to it. There is no file conversion or extensions to worry about, if you planned properly and are doing this the right way.


        Originally Posted by AprilMSU View Post

        That poor chap is me. Right now I am debating trying to push the site out of using DW templates, the site is simply too big. I do know we will be using the CMS OmniUpdate - Home

        I am unsure how the global will work with this CMS as I haven't gotten a lot of information on this system. I do know they use xml and inc files. We are currently working on the template to be implimented to the CMS. The template is done in responsive design.

        I am going to assume that the CMS we will be using will allow our site to be static so we can continue to use html (htm) extension. Right now I am at the start of creating a root template for this new responsive and believe me, this process is hell, pure hell.
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  • Profile picture of the author PBScott
    I maintain a 1500 or so page static website quickly and easily simply by using Dreamweaver's find and replace function, I just made 100k changes or so today with it in less than a minute. It is very powerful, can work for folders and sub folder, and you can use complex wildcards in it. This would be my solution.

    Search and Replace Wildcard Characters in Dreamweaver | Adventures, Tips and Technology
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
    I would go with a better know CMS myself as well. With a CMS that's been around there is more community support, add-ons, extentions or plugins available. Plus it will be easier and probably cheaper to find some one to edit, change or customize if needed.

    Also, there might be a plugin or extension that will import a html site into the new CMS for you. If not, I am sure you could find some to to create a plugin or add-on that will import the old site for you. Even paying some one to create it would be much cheaper than the manpower it would take to do it all by hand.

    Even more important, using a CMS, any one will be able to admin, use or edit the site, without needing the knowledge of dreamweaver, html, ect. A CMS would be much more user friendly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sam Zachuth
    Last two posts were darn good info! I never thought about the dreamweaver thing (as it has been years since I used DW!), and I totally agree about using a more known CMS. Just because some CMS is labeled as for "the education industry", does not mean it is a good choice for a CMS. You really should do more research into just what a CMS is and the theory and practice behind their uses. There is a lot of info for those subjects available online, and even here... if you dig back like 10 years or so :p
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
      Hi Sam,
      Well, the problem is I think a lot of the schools originally designed their sites using straight up HTML and CSS, now 10,000 pages later they are looking for a better solution. I have encountered this myself and through others working for the school. Sadly, many of the schools continue to resort to using Web Expression (newer MS FrontPage) or Dreamweaver. I myself, a freelance web designer for the past ten years took advantage of MySql, databases, CMS (Wordpress and such), PHP include exentions depending on the site and needs.

      As I was hired this site was already done (10,000) plus pages not including all the PDF files, images, videos... As for the chosen CMS that is out of my hands as when you are dealing with schools, you are dealing with politics. That never goes over well or give you a lot of options. We will be using that CMS I linked to you earlier, that isn't an option. It is already decided by the chair and department.

      Getting information about the CMS has been pulling arms and legs. The head school is originally paying the company to convert their site to CMS system then they will be implimenting our site to the CMS. I am not saying this will be a good or easy approach, I am just glad it is not me that will have to build the template into the CMS.

      The thing I am focused on, what in the world do I do with 10,000 plus htm pages? Already using DW template method which is nice but has a major downfall. One change to the master template it has to scan/cache all 10,000 plus pages. I have debated whether or not to just convert the site using ASP includes which would be my choice. This will not be voted on as the school is pretty dead set keeping the HTML pages (Google search reasons) and many other reasons which is understandable.

      All I know is, I have not found any way you can use "include" files or commands in html. You can with php, asp, shtml but not html. If I am wrong, I am all ears.

      Originally Posted by Sam Zachuth View Post

      Last two posts were darn good info! I never thought about the dreamweaver thing (as it has been years since I used DW!), and I totally agree about using a more known CMS. Just because some CMS is labeled as for "the education industry", does not mean it is a good choice for a CMS. You really should do more research into just what a CMS is and the theory and practice behind their uses. There is a lot of info for those subjects available online, and even here... if you dig back like 10 years or so :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
        Originally Posted by AprilMSU View Post

        Hi Sam,

        All I know is, I have not found any way you can use "include" files or commands in html. You can with php, asp, shtml but not html. If I am wrong, I am all ears.
        You can use PHP in HTML pages all day long. Just include the code
        <?php code ?> in the pages. Of course your server needs to be set to parse php out of html pages, which should not be a problem. It's been so long since Io did it, that I can't tell you the details, but it was not a problem for me.

        I did this for a number is years, until I moved to Wordpress.
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        • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
          It is my understanding this only works if you save the page as index.php not index.html.

          The server we are on only supports asp, they refuse to install or use php. That is another downfall. I already know how to use php includes or basic asp if you save pages as php or asp.


          Originally Posted by Ron Killian View Post

          You can use PHP in HTML pages all day long. Just include the code
          <?php code ?> in the pages. Of course your server needs to be set to parse php out of html pages, which should not be a problem. It's been so long since Io did it, that I can't tell you the details, but it was not a problem for me.

          I did this for a number is years, until I moved to Wordpress.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
            Originally Posted by AprilMSU View Post

            It is my understanding this only works if you save the page as index.php not index.html.

            The server we are on only supports asp, they refuse to install or use php. That is another downfall. I already know how to use php includes or basic asp if you save pages as php or asp.
            Maybe it depends on your server. Like I said, it's been so long since I've done that.

            But I had HTML pages with php code embeded in the page, which built parts of the pages, populated from a MySQL database. Or could be includes as well.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam Zachuth
        It confuses me when you stated that you did not want to be the guy building the template, yet you are the guy who has to do the 10k pages? You do realize that creating a template for a CMS takes less than a week, if you are talented, right? If you don't write a program or script to convert all of those pages, copy/pasting their written content alone will take a month, then the images and other things could take twice that time. I hope you are being paid by the hour? Lol!

        The job really sounds like a bad deal for you. You got dumb muppets making the decisions on; what CMS to use, keeping an inane html extension (which incidentally, would not ruin rankings or indexing in any modern search engine), and what server technology to use. It would be something I would steer clear away from lol!

        I guess to each their own, but I really feel sorry for you if you aren't being paid by the hour for this. If you are, then maybe it's good that all you will need to do is data entry for the next half a year and cash in big!


        Originally Posted by AprilMSU View Post

        Hi Sam,
        Well, the problem is I think a lot of the schools originally designed their sites using straight up HTML and CSS, now 10,000 pages later they are looking for a better solution. I have encountered this myself and through others working for the school. Sadly, many of the schools continue to resort to using Web Expression (newer MS FrontPage) or Dreamweaver. I myself, a freelance web designer for the past ten years took advantage of MySql, databases, CMS (Wordpress and such), PHP include exentions depending on the site and needs.

        As I was hired this site was already done (10,000) plus pages not including all the PDF files, images, videos... As for the chosen CMS that is out of my hands as when you are dealing with schools, you are dealing with politics. That never goes over well or give you a lot of options. We will be using that CMS I linked to you earlier, that isn't an option. It is already decided by the chair and department.

        Getting information about the CMS has been pulling arms and legs. The head school is originally paying the company to convert their site to CMS system then they will be implimenting our site to the CMS. I am not saying this will be a good or easy approach, I am just glad it is not me that will have to build the template into the CMS.

        The thing I am focused on, what in the world do I do with 10,000 plus htm pages? Already using DW template method which is nice but has a major downfall. One change to the master template it has to scan/cache all 10,000 plus pages. I have debated whether or not to just convert the site using ASP includes which would be my choice. This will not be voted on as the school is pretty dead set keeping the HTML pages (Google search reasons) and many other reasons which is understandable.

        All I know is, I have not found any way you can use "include" files or commands in html. You can with php, asp, shtml but not html. If I am wrong, I am all ears.
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        • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
          Hi Sam,
          I appreciate you input but I don't feel you have the full understanding of the project which I am working on to make a realistic conclusion. I thought some of the replies from others were interesting and even insightful. I currently work for a University working on the University website. No it is not uncommon that a lot of the Universities started off with HTML pages using Dreamweaver, ours started with FrontPage many years ago later changed over to Dreamweaver.

          No it was not common back then people used Wordpress or other CMS, fact is, Wordpress when many of the Universities started designing their site, most people were still using HTML and hand coding their pages.

          It doesn't take long when you work for a school system whether it be a University or school district pages start to add on. Over the years you start calculating how many pages are being added throughout the year. If you think our 10,000 + pages is a lot, some of the other Universities have up to 100,000 + pages. Our site is relatively small for a University website.

          As for the CMS, I was hoping that someone may have used the system which we are waiting on. At this time the main University is having their template BUILT INTO the CMS. The thing is, what you don't understand is that this CMS was designed for schools/universities the allows modules, widgets, specific for these types of site. The best part is, the system will adapt to any language which your website uses (php, asp, html). They simply build your site template into the system allowing us, the web developers to maintain and track the University site better. There are hundreds of features added to this CMS but nevertheless, we still have to prepare and set up a strong structure for the current site which I am currently changing over 10,000 + pages into Responsive Design.

          Luckily for me that is all I have to do for now. When the time comes the main school starts building our template to the CMS, I may or may not need to do anything. What we will have to do, is put in all the sites once the template is built in. How long will it take? I don't know. Depends how the system works.

          And yes I am being paid by the hour, I am part of the school staff with paid time off, paid sick days, and full health care benefits.

          Originally Posted by Sam Zachuth View Post

          It confuses me when you stated that you did not want to be the guy building the template, yet you are the guy who has to do the 10k pages? You do realize that creating a template for a CMS takes less than a week, if you are talented, right? If you don't write a program or script to convert all of those pages, copy/pasting their written content alone will take a month, then the images and other things could take twice that time. I hope you are being paid by the hour? Lol!

          The job really sounds like a bad deal for you. You got dumb muppets making the decisions on; what CMS to use, keeping an inane html extension (which incidentally, would not ruin rankings or indexing in any modern search engine), and what server technology to use. It would be something I would steer clear away from lol!

          I guess to each their own, but I really feel sorry for you if you aren't being paid by the hour for this. If you are, then maybe it's good that all you will need to do is data entry for the next half a year and cash in big!
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      • Profile picture of the author Brandon Tanner
        Originally Posted by AprilMSU View Post


        All I know is, I have not found any way you can use "include" files or commands in html. You can with php, asp, shtml but not html. If I am wrong, I am all ears.
        PHP includes are definitely the way to go here, and will save you a ton of work in the long run. On most servers, it is possible to run PHP code inside regular HTML files, by adding the following to your .htaccess file...

        AddType application/x-httpd-php .html .htm

        Just be sure to backup your original .htaccess file before making any changes to it, as having one character out of place can take your entire website down!
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        • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
          Hi Brandon,
          Unfortunately our server is Windows Server and they only support ASP. Installing PHP is not an option. Joy of my job when working for the school system, you don't always get a lot of options.

          The good news is, they will be moving us on a CMS where we will keep the html extension. I do believe it will be using php code... It will be interesting to see the two schools debate this process through server wise. I have yet to figure out if we will be on our own server or shared on the other school server...


          Originally Posted by Brandon Tanner View Post

          PHP includes are definitely the way to go here, and will save you a ton of work in the long run. On most servers, it is possible to run PHP code inside regular HTML files, by adding the following to your .htaccess file...

          AddType application/x-httpd-php .html .htm

          Just be sure to backup your original .htaccess file before making any changes to it, as having one character out of place can take your entire website down!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9195132].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      There are in essence all kinds of ways to achieve your goal without changing to a different CMS. And YES I said Different... DW is as much a CMS as WordPress.

      Right off the top of my head if the headers and footers are the same across all the pages... you could do a php insert, you could use a javascript insertion, you could use a iFrame. here are literally more than a few ways to accomplish what it is you are asking to do. All of the above options could be globally changed using the find and replace function.

      Don't listen to the crap about where you been for the last 18 years... There is not so much a need to "Update" your CMS, just become more familiar with the strengths of what you have. Your current CMS ( DW ) is more than capable of dealing with global changes.

      Keep in mind that the moment you convert off of DW the 10,000 line item redirect would be a freakin pain in the ARSE!

      Hope that Helps!
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      • Profile picture of the author AprilMSU
        Our server will only support asp, school decision so no php. You can use includes with asp but it requires saving the pages as .asp which is a no go. The school wants the pages to remain as htm.

        I do not mind the DW template system, it is alright but the issue is every time we make changes to the master template, you have to upload every single web page that is connected to the master template. This is a pain in the butt. Let us not forget, it keeps running a scan/cache everytime I go to save changes to the master template.

        I am looking for any other alternatives without changing the extension page names, no php, and if there is an easier way to run the template on DW. I did also learn how to nest templates on Dreamweaver, that was nifty as well. The only downfall is, same problem with the master, the cache takes forever and uploading 10 thousand pages for the changes to show :|


        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        There are in essence all kinds of ways to achieve your goal without changing to a different CMS. And YES I said Different... DW is as much a CMS as WordPress.

        Right off the top of my head if the headers and footers are the same across all the pages... you could do a php insert, you could use a javascript insertion, you could use a iFrame. here are literally more than a few ways to accomplish what it is you are asking to do. All of the above options could be globally changed using the find and replace function.

        Don't listen to the crap about where you been for the last 18 years... There is not so much a need to "Update" your CMS, just become more familiar with the strengths of what you have. Your current CMS ( DW ) is more than capable of dealing with global changes.

        Keep in mind that the moment you convert off of DW the 10,000 line item redirect would be a freakin pain in the ARSE!

        Hope that Helps!
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