These particular CPA ads. Should they be shut down?

47 replies
Ok.

There is this "guy" that basically uses pretty much every type of psychological manipulation to abuse and force his victims into unwittingly purchasing a "product" under false pretenses.

Based on the longetivity of his ad campaign, the ad networks he is a part of, and the fact that he is still up and running, I'd estimate he is probably doing at least $100,000k/day if not more.

An example site is: "www matthewgetsgreen com" -- (this guy thinks its funny to show disgusting porno videos to any URLs linking from the warrior forum, so you'll need to cut & paste the URL and add periods in your web browser if you want to see an example site.).

Anyways... seems some people DID complain. (Someone had said their was a lawsuit originating from Texas against him). Apparently it is just one guy and his buddy/lawyer friend.

So now it seems on every new "site" he makes, he simply adds this disclaimer, in tiny, difficult to read text, and is still doing the exact same thing to deceive people:

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What do you think should be done about this?

If he was honest and above board, that would be one thing -- but each site he puts out appears to be designed to "steal" from the consumer, merely because of things like this (i.e., the "only" reason he added in a disclaimer was because of a little bit of pressure).
#ads #cpa #flogs #shut
  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
    You cannot disclaim the law.

    Frank Kern lost everything not so many years back for a very minor indiscretion which was actually an excuse by the government it seems.

    It would take a formal complaint to get this person investigated, but if he is as you say he is, lawyer or no lawyer he would not get away with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      Originally Posted by apc01 View Post

      You cannot disclaim the law.

      Frank Kern lost everything not so many years back for a very minor indiscretion which was actually an excuse by the government it seems.

      It would take a formal complaint to get this person investigated, but if he is as you say he is, lawyer or no lawyer he would not get away with it.
      That's interesting -- what exactly happened? I only recently starting hearing about him ('Frank Kern').
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      • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
        Originally Posted by Johnathan View Post

        That's interesting -- what exactly happened? I only recently starting hearing about him ('Frank Kern').
        A google search for "frank kern ftc" (without the quotes) will turn up a lot of information about that case.. let's just say that even though he was running an otherwise legitimate business at the time, because of a couple little technicalities the FTC was able to shut him down and take all of his assets. Some of the sites you'll find in the search results might demonize him and refer to him as a scammer (as far as I'm concerned that was as much the FTC's goal as actually siezing his assets was) but as far as I can remember he was selling a legitimate product back then just like he's selling a legitimate product (Mass Control) now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    We aren't the internet police or ethics enforcers - if the guy goes too far he'll face problems with scamming, cross the law or run afoul of CPA sites.

    You estimate the person makes $3 million a month? Sorry, but I don't buy that nor do I think you have enough facts to know what he earns.

    The site you reference was registered 3 weeks ago - and I wouldn't visit any of his sites for any reason because of the tricks pulled here. I don't care what he does - he doesn't affect me or what I do.

    kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      We aren't the internet police or ethics enforcers - if the guy goes too far he'll face problems with scamming, cross the law or run afoul of CPA sites.

      You estimate the person makes $3 million a month? Sorry, but I don't buy that nor do I think you have enough facts to know what he earns.

      The site you reference was registered 3 weeks ago - and I wouldn't visit any of his sites for any reason because of the tricks pulled here. I don't care what he does - he doesn't affect me or what I do.

      kay
      Hi Kay,

      Yes, I'd say probably $3 million/month, because of the fact that he is able to pay (consistently) for his ads showing up all over the place. Also, he has now (recycled or still in use) at least 500+ sites that I know of, all variations of this theme. And it's fine if you don't "buy" that, I am probably actually underestimating the amount of revenue he does, and yes, I do have facts/research to back up my estimates.

      The idea seems to be quickly to set up a website, do a cash grab, then when people seem to start complaining, shut it down and start up a new one. Probably the reason you are seeing it has 'only' been registered for 3 years.

      Unfortunately your response/attitude, which unfortunately probably other people have too, is probably one of the main reasons that allow guys like this to flourish -- "I don't care what he does - he doesn't affect me or what I do." -- so because it doesn't affect you -- but it could hurt someone else, you just don't care? So... if something happened to you -- and you wanted help -- should other people respond that well -- since it's "you" and doesn't affect "them", that they don't care about your situation and good luck for you getting out of it?
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  • Profile picture of the author John34
    Here is one more jessegetsgreen com with same theme. These are called Flogs (fake blogs), i have seen this kind of flogs for many offers like google cash,**** berry etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      Originally Posted by John34 View Post

      Here is one more jessegetsgreen com with same theme. These are called Flogs (fake blogs), i have seen this kind of flogs for many offers like google cash,**** berry etc.
      The guy doing the google cash I think is the same guy doing the **** berry... He has put together some 500+ websites...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Whatever.

        I've had some good success and times when I've struggled. Being a woman has nothing to do with it. I support myself and that does change the focus on how time is best spent.

        We can agree to disagree. I think there are significant age differences and life experiences that may cause us to see things differently. Doesn't make anyone wrong - just different.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Whatever.

          I've had some good success and times when I've struggled. Being a woman has nothing to do with it. I support myself and that does change the focus on how time is best spent.

          We can agree to disagree. I think there are significant age differences and life experiences that may cause us to see things differently. Doesn't make anyone wrong - just different.

          kay
          Well, if you'd like to disagree, that is fine. Not sure how 'old' you are -- and of course, sometimes environmental conditions influence certain attitudes... but it is still a very cynical and pessimistic attitude, and while being greedy and self centered may work in the short term (and quite possibly make a 'relatively' big "score" to your current income level), people have long memories and will remember that in the future...

          Ironically, that kind of attitude could also hurt you long term in other respects anyways. Let's say your local government decides to pass a certain law (say related to taxation for a certain level of income) -- that happens to be 'wrong' as opposed to a 'right' taxation increase (i.e., say it just a cash grab for a raise in salary and so some of the local politicians can go on longer vacations), but since it doesn't "directly" affect you, you say 'screw that' and only think of yourself and don't bother getting involved. Then, let's say by some chance you get to the point where you get to that level of income, and now it 'does' affect you. Now you are upset -- but it is a bit late to do anything about it. Sure, you can still 'fight' it then, but you are making more work for yourself when you could have 'nipped' it in the bud much earlier on.
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      • Profile picture of the author aekaplan
        Originally Posted by Johnathan View Post

        The guy doing the google cash I think is the same guy doing the **** berry... He has put together some 500+ websites...
        LOL Yea that one single guy is doing incredibly well! Kevin Hoeffer, I believe his name is? How does he get all those sites and do it himself? Must be making millions.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          that kind of attitude could also hurt you
          As will being a judgmental jerk.

          Have no idea where you are going with the rest of the conjectures. Again - whatever.
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          • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            As will being a judgmental jerk.

            Have no idea where you are going with the rest of the conjectures. Again - whatever.
            Lol, not a judgmental jerk. Obviously you are a very narrowminded self-centered individual, and can't see beyond your little fence. Just trying to help, but ok, I guess you don't want help. Fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Yes I've seen this guy all over, particularly on facebook. He surely is making in the millions, and I do buy it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I said 3 WEEKS - not 3 years!

      You tend to interpret other's comments in an interesting way.

      Point is - you can spend all day every day online worrying about whether other people are taking advantage of online users, whether promoting gambling products is bad because people lose money, whether someone else makes a lot of money doing something that comes close to or goes over the line of your version of "ethical".

      Or you can spend your time online building a business, taking care of your own customers and readers, making certain you recommend good products, etc.

      What's the difference? If you pay your own bills, have to worry about keeping a roof over your head, feeding your family, keeping the power on...in other words, if YOU are totally responsible for your own financial survival.....you earn nothing when worrying about what others are doing on their sites.

      Being a crusader for "right and honest behavior" is a treat reserved for those who don't have to support themselves (or those who have well placed "scam report" sites and a large following).

      So while I agree this guy's methods stink - his activities neither take away nor contribute to my bottom line. If focusing on the bottom line is selfish - then I'm guilty.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
        Kay,

        I'm not sure how 'successful' you are yet, or if you are really experiencing anything at all yet... but with a certain level of success also comes a certain level of responsibility.

        Your attitude seems to say that basically if you were doing business say in a town run by the mafia, you would be perfectly content to merrily make money on your way, meanwhile other people get trashed, etc -- as long as it didn't affect you. So you are saying you would be like one of those people who walks by seeing someone needing help who had an accident on the street, and obviously assuming you have never, or just wouldn't consider, donating a dollar to a bum on the street, because its not 'your' business, right?

        Not sure if you are experiencing any success with your business right now, but with your very greedy, self centered attitude, I believe you will find it extremely difficult to grow your business. What is even a little more shocking, is apparently (from your site) -- you are a woman? I wouldn't expect that kind of greed and self centeredness from a woman. It's people like you/with you attitude that unfortunately makes it possible for guys like this to take advantage of others.

        There is a 'poem' you should read from about 50 years ago, but I'm not sure you would be able to fully appreciate it.

        "In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew; And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."


        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I said 3 WEEKS - not 3 years!

        You tend to interpret other's comments in an interesting way.

        Point is - you can spend all day every day online worrying about whether other people are taking advantage of online users, whether promoting gambling products is bad because people lose money, whether someone else makes a lot of money doing something that comes close to or goes over the line of your version of "ethical".

        Or you can spend your time online building a business, taking care of your own customers and readers, making certain you recommend good products, etc.

        What's the difference? If you pay your own bills, have to worry about keeping a roof over your head, feeding your family, keeping the power on...in other words, if YOU are totally responsible for your own financial survival.....you earn nothing when worrying about what others are doing on their sites.

        Being a crusader for "right and honest behavior" is a treat reserved for those who don't have to support themselves (or those who have well placed "scam report" sites and a large following).

        So while I agree this guy's methods stink - his activities neither take away nor contribute to my bottom line. If focusing on the bottom line is selfish - then I'm guilty.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author brp002
    Yea i see this is how people have been doing CPA latley. But he does have his phone number on there. That is very gutsy i think. But if he is making that money he probably just buys cell phones just for that instance.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Christ almighty, Johnathan - chill. The warrior you are talking to has been here for one hell of a long time - and there are many others that have too - you are too new to know what it was - the reason this forum has hung for so long and became the best is because the warriors DO care. Of course, you can't tell that much because it's changing fast, but if you watch those that have been here for 4 or more years interact you will see more care than you will find in most anywhere else - online or off - even when there is a major disagreement we watch each other's backs. You have totally misinterpreted what Kay is trying to say.

    What you are missing is that year after year the scammers are out there - if it isn't one it's another to take their place with a new game. Do we care. Sure we do. But how much protecting are you supposed to have to do for other adults. At some point of time it becomes time for people to freaking open their eyes and take responsibility for themselves and do some DUE DILIGENCE. You see people throwing their money at one scam you will see them throw it at the next one -- because greed gets in the way of level headed logical intelligence. When the bucks become the almighty end to all, you are going to see people taken. You can't run around the net shutting down every scammer that exists or they would already be gone now. Far from it -- just look at some of the posts you see in here now. Some people can't even tell it's wrong to steal things from other sites or marketers. Yet you are going to stop scammers? Sure - blow yourself away at it.

    If this guy is so damned obvious, as you see him to be, what is the mental problem of the people falling for his crap? Of course his disclaimer is small print - almost all disclaimers are small print. And he's actually quite forward with telling that his examples aren't average results. That is a pretty clear disclaimer. What is it that people aren't "getting" when they read it?

    It's really a pisser that there are those that will take advantage of others for a few bucks. Are they any worse than the guy in here that whips together an ebook of old hashed up out of date material from other people's work and sells it as the biggest secret ever revealed? Or markets themself as an expert in a subject when you can find him posting for help because he doesn't understand something he proclaims right in his sig to be a pro at? Look around and decide how many you can condemn but not stop and how many can you save that won't need saving again next week.

    Many of us have watched people come and go here for years. The general crowd is still not "getting" it and still will fall for anything that promises to make them a buck real fast and with very little effort. How can you expect people to continue to protect people that refuse to lift a finger to protect themselves? Caring doesn't have to mean "take care of". And that is Kay's point. The people that fall for that guy are adults and as capable of doing their own research as any other adult - and when they decide to start working for their own good instead of their own greed, then the crooks will go broke. Period.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      Hi HeySal,

      You are absolutely correct that people do need to do their due diligence. What sets apart this particular 'scammer' as opposed to the 'regular' scammer is the degree of pyschological manipulation and reach that this particular individual has "achieved".

      His websites contain everything from geotargeting, to personalization, to "social proof" (blog comments), etc, etc -- things that many "average" joes would use to be able to distinguish a "legit" offer from a "scammy" offer. (I.e., some people buy items from WSO's based on a single sales letter, let alone the tactics this guy employs). The only reason it appears he added a disclaimer is because he has received a little bit of heat -- but still -- the text is designed to be deceptive, hidden (tiny/blends in with the background, etc) -- designed to cheat people. And he is still operating, which is wrong. And probably is very well doing at least $100k/day if not a whole heck of a lot more (because of the consistency of the ads appearing across major ad networks on a daily basis, not just one location).

      When their are so many people, good, honest people, that want to break into internet marketing (or making sales on the internet for that matter) -- and they have no idea, no background -- the tactics this guy employs are designed to prevent them from realizing it is a scam even after due diligence, which is why it is important to make sure that new guys are not duped like this. For some people it may very well be "greed" -- but for others, it looks like a "legitimate" opportunity to "solve" their financial situation, and it appears to be giving them a 'hand up' the way the site is designed -- not like a pickpocket stealing the guys wallet and keys to the the car while donating $1.00.

      What I am objecting to with respect to Kay is the apparent lack of care for anyone else, as long as it "doesn't affect her directly". That kind of attitude allows thieves like this to proliferate. Now -- you are defending Kay -- if Kay has done something in the past -- and instead had said something like "I've done things in the past to shut down guys like this, but it's frustrating because new ones pop up every day", I would understand, and could understand that perspective. But Kay has not said anything like that, basically Kay said "I don't give a rat's a-s what happens to someone else, as long as it's not me". And that is what I am objecting to.

      With a certain amount of success, comes a certain amount of power and responsibility, whether be it through people respecting what you have to say, influencing certain decisions, or making sure that the 'good' people are allowed to thrive and be successful.

      Yes, new scammers pop up every day. But if you stick your head in the sand and expect someone to take care of it, you might find your own livelihood threatened because of the tarnished reputation that they have given your industry. (Case and point -- the FTC's proposed changes related to endorsements for individuals within the US, which could make it more difficult to operate your own internet business. If people had done a better job of preventing the scammers from abusing the system, then perhaps there would not be the threat or possibility that it could affect the livelihood of 'legitimate' marketers).

      Bottomline, you can't stick your head in the sand and expect someone else to take care of it. You need to take responsibility for your own life, and when you can (whether through time, resources, etc) -- make sure you take action defending the (good) rights of others. Otherwise, you may end up finding yourself in a situation down the road of someone else dictating to you of what you can and can't do, because of an apathetic attitude.

      Johnathan
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        [
        Johnathan - ALL MARKETING works on varied levels of manipulation...it's the very heart and nature of the beast. The only 2 variances are that some master it and some don't, and some use it wisely and honestly, and some people are cannibalistic.

        Before the net - and even now people get scammed offline as well as online.
        Some of these scammers eventually get busted, some continue on in one form or other. It would be an awesome world if we could stop them all. But we can't. But WE CAN'T save the world and when you get older you will find it gets old even trying to save others continually.......especially when they walk into the trap on their own volition. At that point it is THEY who need to worry about it and act. If THEY don't act on their own behalf, you will burn every bit of your own energy trying to save them - you can destroy yourself trying.
        Look at the housing crisis - people spent way beyond what they could afford - bought homes "betting on the come" during a two decade bout of stagflation. Smart - they got scammed, but they willingly walked into it, now they cry because they want everyone else to fix it all for them. How sorry can we feel for people who bought a home they KNEW was too expensive? Sorry most of us in the WF don't condon greed for a reason.
        If CPA is scamming people - it's up to the people scammed to do something about it.

        Choose your battles in life, Johnathan, they will be many.
        Because someone cares little for your battle doesn't mean they aren't fighting on other fronts....so be careful how you Judge.

        Kay is a single woman who has lost employment due to the recession and is also a Katrina victim. She was doing nicely until Katrina - yet instead of crying about who is going to help her - she has pulled herself up by her bootstraps and is working her ass off to make money. So far she's done a spectacular job of taking care of herself, online and off - and she does so with heart and honesty. But it's not easy for her since she lost her home in the storm. So how terrible is it that she isn't worried about people who get scammed willingly miss-spending their money. How long would she be able to take care of her own if she were to start worrying about everyone else?
        Yet you will see her jump in aid efforts for other Warriors frequently - she isn't cold, simply choses her battles with wisdom.

        Life isn't always kind - and it's a lot easier to have empathy for those who work to help themselves than it is to feel sympathy for those that sit and cry about being taken (almost invariably being taken "again").

        Yes scammers make it rough for the rest of us in marketing - and for customers to decide what is a scam and what isn't. It's been that way since the beginning of human culture. There will always be someone lurking to take advantage -and there will always be those absolutely magnificent at it. Surely you have seen news recently of billion dollar scammers who were able to scam even many experts.

        If you say you were never scammed - I wouldn't believe you. WE ALL have been scammed in one way or another -- and as adults we should be expected to LEARN from the experience, not to just keep dumping our bucks into excellently constructed scams. Scammers couldn't exist if they were stupid, ya know - but no one else can either. You need to act on your own behalf when scammed, not cry to the rest of the world to do it FOR you.

        Babysitting is a full time occupation. Can you support yourself doing it?
        Choose your battles.

        The only way we can truly fight scammers is to be above them. Put out products of integrity -- insist on integrity from other members of the group.
        If EVERY Warrior practices integrity, then people will know as soon as they see that something is a Warrior production that they know that they are getting quality and everyone else is just SOL. It is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE that the members here have striven to deliver to the newbies since this forum was started.

        The only way to beat the scammers at their own game is to work with continual integrity, know that making money takes work - money doesn't fall out of your ass automatically because you join one program - which is the mindset which allows scammers to be effective in the first place.

        People fall to scams mostly because of greed - how empathetic are we supposed to stay, how much work should we concern ourselves with to save those whose downfall is greed? You can shut down CPA and many of those who were scammed by them will run and join the next scam - learning nothing, still looking for the "magic beanstalk". Save the crusade for the old ladies who pay to have their homes fixed to livable conditions and never see the guy they gave the check again without getting the service - you are right, we don't care when someone loses money trying to make the "easy, quick buck". So sue us for not dedicating our live's to babysitting.

        Continually turn out products with quality. Can you imagine how much money could be won by the marketers in this forum if each product put out by a Warrior was origninal and valuable? Is there a better way to show you care, than to make REAL products instead of hashed up trash to make a quick buck? THAT is the way you can fight scammers without putting so much of yourself into a losing crusade that you self-destruct.
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
          Hi HeySal,

          Responding:

          1. There is a difference between marketing used for outright manipulation with the intention to deceive (with the associated negative connotations), as opposed to highlighting benefits, and marketing used for the purpose showing a user how they can genuinely benefit from a product/service (for 'good' uses). The guy here is using it for deceptive and deceitful purposes.

          2. Yes, you are correct that battles should be chosen. And no, you won't burn yourself out, providing you choose your battles, etc. Why I chose to mention this particular individual is because he is deceiving people on such a grand scale, obviously it takes more precedence than some average Joe, while still not right, might have "only" deceived one person. This guy (the one that has over 500+ 'deceptive' websites) -- is affecting a lot of good, honest people. Yes, some may sign up solely because of greed and the thought of the easy life. But others -- looking for a genuine opportunity -- can easily get sucked it because he uses elements from "good" advertising campaigns to trick regular individuals into buying. Why something should be done in this case -- such that NO more of these websites pop up -- is because he is deceiving so many unwilling people -- that perhaps also don't have the technical know-how to find out who he is (he does a fairly good job of hiding through cloaking, P.O. boxes, etc, etc). That is the reason I mention this particular individual.

          3. CPA in itself is not a scam. This particular individual -- how he is using it, is a scam.

          4. Kay wrote what she wrote. As for the Katrina situation, I was not aware of that. However, she did not write that because of that (or 'personal' issues), she needed to focus on building her own business first before she could fight other battles. She simply wrote: "I don't care what he does - he doesn't affect me or what I do.". That is the attitude I am objecting to. You are putting words in her mouth with respect to saying it is her personal situation -- what she wrote in no way reflects that she has personal issues to deal with first. If that was indeed the case, then I 100% agree that of course she should get herself up and running first before trying to deal with other things. But again, that is not what she wrote. And unfortunately a lot of people share that same kind of attitude that she expressed -- apathy, someone else can do it. That is what I am objecting to.

          5. Creating product with integrity and stopping scammers are two entirely different things, it is comparing apples to oranges. With respect to quality products, I 100% agree that quality products should be created. That is what everyone should strive for and produce, created products to the best of their ability. With respect to scammers, you should do something when you can. Two minutes of time from a few individuals can possibly help thousands of others, by preventing them from being duped. Again, the main object I have to this particular scammer is not just the fact that he is scamming people, but it the fact that it is being done in such a deceptive way and on such a grand scale (facebook ads, google ads, other ad networks, etc - and you have to be making good coin to consistently be able to advertise on these networks) -- and it is quite possibly hurting quite a lot of good, hardworking, honest individuals. That is why you should do something. Because as an IMer who experiences success, you know what is right, and you know what is wrong. Silence, apathy, is simply condoning an accepting those actions.
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          • Profile picture of the author MKons
            Originally Posted by Johnathan View Post

            3. CPA in itself is not a scam. This particular individual -- how he is using it, is a scam.
            *Some* CPA offers are not "scams".

            ALL the "Google Make Money Online Biz Kit" type of offers are complete and total scams. They do not work. They have never worked for anyone and are complete rubbish. Yet they are among the top sellers for most CPA companies (I'm talking 5000+ leads a day * XXX CPA companies).

            The only way to promote these offers is through "scamming" people. Same thing goes for many, many other top converting CPA offers - they are rubbish/scam.

            Tell me, how would you go about promoting one of them offers without "scamming" anyone?

            You are delusional.
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
              Hi,

              Thanks -- not sure exactly what you are saying (your last sentence seemed to contradict what you are saying? I *think* you are agreeing with me?) -- I am saying that yes, these particular offers by this particular guys are 'scammy' designed to deceive people (so not sure about your last sentence? I agree with you that they are scams)

              Originally Posted by MKons View Post

              *Some* CPA offers are not "scams".

              ALL the "Google Make Money Online Biz Kit" type of offers are complete and total scams. They do not work. They have never worked for anyone and are complete rubbish. Yet they are among the top sellers for most CPA companies (I'm talking 5000+ leads a day * XXX CPA companies).

              The only way to promote these offers is through "scamming" people. Same thing goes for many, many other top converting CPA offers - they are rubbish/scam.

              Tell me, how would you go about promoting one of them offers without "scamming" anyone?

              You are delusional.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Sal -

            Thanks for your kind words - but I need to correct something. I didn't lose my home in Katrina. Had some significant damage - more than I first thought but - one street down from my home today is still a waterfront street of nothing but slabs, I felt I was lucky. After Katrina, if this economy doesn't end up getting me, I'm invincible (right).

            2 minutes of time is good enough.
            That's true - for one scammer. Is your goal taking down this one person who makes a lot of money? If it's stopping scammers, 2 minutes per scammer is a lot (and I think 2 minutes is less than it takes as I have done this before).

            The problem is perspective - I'm looking at your suggestions as idealistic because I don't have time to devote to cleaning up the internet.

            I also wonder why you focus on this one person as you've posted about him before. There are worse scammers out there so is it the way he makes money - or the way he makes so MUCH money that angers you.

            You are, I believe, 17 (if you are who I think you are-if I'm wrong, sorry) - and not responsible for paying 100% of your way through life yet. If you don't earn enough money this month, you'll still have food to eat and a house to live in. It's a great time in life to have high ideals and develop strong ethics but there are also times when survival depends on priorities.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
              Hi Kay --

              1. Please re-read what I wrote as well. My goal is not to take down this particular individual because they are "making" a lot of money -- the estimated figures mentioned were used to illustrate the degree of individuals he has taken money from -- the goal is to prevent this particular individual from continuing to deceive people in the future because he has so far been apparently extremely successful at it.

              My post was for this particular individual (or rather "two guys") that are running this operation, jumping from website to website.

              2. I am also not asking you personally to clean up the 'entire' internet -- but rather spend a couple minutes for this particular individual because of the incredible reach he has at the moment, and the degree/number of people he appears to be taking money from. If it was above board -- I would think this guy was terrific -- but everything from the fake blog posts to the geotargeting to the "supposedly" 500+ families that all seem to have had a "boring job as an account rep" to "identify" with the average joe -- to the fake family pictures -- and then the fact it is a hidden forced continuity program that is difficult for a single individual to get out of -- because to the average joe he has done an excellent job of cloaking his identiy -- this is what I am objecting to, and this is why I think he should not be operating.

              3. As for other scammers, I'm sure there probably are some (at the moment not sure whom you are referring to) -- and I believe just as strongly if they are taking money through lies and deceit, then that is just as wrong and they should not be operating as well.

              4. As for 17? Lol, no... not sure whom you are referring to, and yes, I do pay for my own food. And no, you don't have to lie, cheat, or steal just to "survive", even if you are living on pennies a day. It may be easier, but it is not necessary.

              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Sal -

              Thanks for your kind words - but I need to correct something. I didn't lose my home in Katrina. Had some significant damage - more than I first thought but - one street down from my home today is still a waterfront street of nothing but slabs, I felt I was lucky. After Katrina, if this economy doesn't end up getting me, I'm invincible (right).



              That's true - for one scammer. Is your goal taking down this one person who makes a lot of money? If it's stopping scammers, 2 minutes per scammer is a lot (and I think 2 minutes is less than it takes as I have done this before).

              The problem is perspective - I'm looking at your suggestions as idealistic because I don't have time to devote to cleaning up the internet.

              I also wonder why you focus on this one person as you've posted about him before. There are worse scammers out there so is it the way he makes money - or the way he makes so MUCH money that angers you.

              You are, I believe, 17 (if you are who I think you are-if I'm wrong, sorry) - and not responsible for paying 100% of your way through life yet. If you don't earn enough money this month, you'll still have food to eat and a house to live in. It's a great time in life to have high ideals and develop strong ethics but there are also times when survival depends on priorities.

              kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
        Actually Paul,

        1. Yes, I do do what I say/practise what I preach. Do you?

        2. As for Kay, how am I taking what she said out of context? She said, "I don't care what he does - he doesn't affect me or what I do". What is being taken out of context? Prior to that, she basically said let someone else deal with it -> "We aren't the internet police or ethics enforcers - if the guy goes too far he'll face problems with scamming, cross the law or run afoul of CPA sites". Why not let Kay answer for herself?

        3. And not sure how much "work" you think it is to "stop" one of these people, 2 minutes of time is good enough.
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
          Lol, hi Paul.

          Actually - I havent "thrown" around words . Please read what I wrote. I am not saying she came across self centered because she would not do what she could to take these prevent this type of scamming, I said because of the post and the attitude/what was said. Please re-read my post.

          Regards.

          Originally Posted by Paul M View Post

          Yes.
          Am not answering for Kay and I didn't before, this is my own opinion and nothing more. So far you've thrown around words such as greedy and self centered for putting personal responsibility's before chasing after the endless scammers out there. If you consider this the best use of your time then fine. However, there's no reason why you should be putting people you don't know into categories such as self centered for not doing the same.

          Like I said before, regardless of the amount of time, Some things come first.


          -Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author unlanthony
      Sal,

      Awesome post! Totally to the point:-)
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  • Profile picture of the author dorim
    Johnathan, what do you suggest we do about the scammers out there? You obviously think we should care more about what they are doing, we can all care, but what action are you suggesting we take?
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      Originally Posted by dorim View Post

      Johnathan, what do you suggest we do about the scammers out there? You obviously think we should care more about what they are doing, we can all care, but what action are you suggesting we take?
      Hi Dorim,

      Thanks -- well, to start, you can contact their domain registrar (i.e., support@name.com for the domain matthewgetsgreen com), or their "redirected" domain (he basically has it set up as a 'two' step process, i.e., pretends to be his own affiliate, so a number of his sites currently redirect to "grantsmoney com"), so you can contact eNom - domain name, web site hosting, email, registration for this particular domain. That is a start. I know someone else posted a pending lawsuit (in Texas) against these guys, but can't seem to find it at the moment. (When I do I can update the post here), and I would recommend letting them know as well. But those are a few examples of things that can be done.
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  • Profile picture of the author KC-Coop
    This thread isn't serious is it? Alright Johnathan hate to break some stuff to you here but come on man.

    1.) Google bizops are widely used by affiliates all over, they are NOT scams because the rebill rate is clearly stated in the terms of service. The fact that people do not read it is not our problem.
    2.) That guy doesn't own EVERY flog that looks similar to that one. Affiliate landing pages are stolen on a daily basis and everyone and their mother uses the one successful landing page and duplicates it.

    Come on guys, really?
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    • Profile picture of the author AffiliateMax
      I agree with your 2nd point - obviously there are a lot more than 1 or 2 guys promoting the Google bizopps (and other CPA offers, **** etc) via flogs.

      Your 1st point however is totally incorrect - the rebill rate (and even the fact that there is one - is (usually) buried in the terms and conditions on a seperate page and the link to the terms and conditions is always at the very bottom of the page in small print and often not above the fold. This is illegal as it violates Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act (regarding clear and conspicuous disclosure of material terms and conditions).

      The Google bizopp offers are 'scams' not only because of this and other related deceptive practices but because the product or service offered is worthless, (in fact is often not even sent or provided at all) and cancellation of the monthly rebilled charges (there are often multiple hidden charges) which usually start within 7 days of order, ie before the product is even received; is extremely difficult or even impossible. Emails bounce back undelivered and the only other method of cancellation (calling an outsourced overseas call centre) results in being put on hold literally for hours or hung up on, being put through to an answering service message even during normal office hours, number unavailable etc and if you do finally manage to get through - being told that your 'membership' (and therefore the rebill) is cancelled only, for the charges to continue.

      As to why anyone who markets online (in an honest and ethical manner) should 'care' - (aside from empathy with victims of the scams who cannot all simply be stereotyped as 'greedy' or 'stupid' but are often some of the most vunerable in society simply looking for a way to make ends meet in tough times).

      But that aspect aside, you/we should care about the damage done to the reputation of the online marketing / affiliate marketing industry by a minority of rogue elements and should care about the possible reaction (or more likely over-reaction) from the authorities (FTC etc) which in attempting to deal with aforementioned rogue elements may (albeit unintentionally) result in legislation which makes life a lot more difficult for everyone who markets online. As may the reaction from service providers like Google Adwords.

      Originally Posted by KC-Coop View Post

      This thread isn't serious is it? Alright Johnathan hate to break some stuff to you here but come on man.

      1.) Google bizops are widely used by affiliates all over, they are NOT scams because the rebill rate is clearly stated in the terms of service. The fact that people do not read it is not our problem.
      2.) That guy doesn't own EVERY flog that looks similar to that one. Affiliate landing pages are stolen on a daily basis and everyone and their mother uses the one successful landing page and duplicates it.

      Come on guys, really?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Johnathan - why this guy? Why so damned obsessed over this one guy? There's a thousand to choose from that are just as bad.
    Hey - I got scammed once. Know what I did? I got the bank to pull my money back from them and I did it in a means that they got investigated. It didn't take freaking 2 minutes -- it took a couple of months of writing, copying, mailing, phone calls. That's when I learned CYA (cover your ass) policy on the net.

    So -- how much did this dude take you for anyway?
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
      HeySal,

      Check out this thread, recently put up by another member.
      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-websites.html

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Johnathan - why this guy? Why so damned obsessed over this one guy? There's a thousand to choose from that are just as bad.
      Hey - I got scammed once. Know what I did? I got the bank to pull my money back from them and I did it in a means that they got investigated. It didn't take freaking 2 minutes -- it took a couple of months of writing, copying, mailing, phone calls. That's when I learned CYA (cover your ass) policy on the net.

      So -- how much did this dude take you for anyway?
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Johnathan View Post

        HeySal,

        Check out this thread, recently put up by another member.
        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-websites.html
        Jonathon,

        Not to front you out, but didn't I see you on a thread the other day saying that you could really use an idea like "how to make an extra hundred bucks selling off your used books on Amazon"?

        Really, I dont think you are in a position to argue with someone like Kay. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and if that's not the case I stand corrected. If you really need a hundred bucks, I will be glad to help you make it. Hell , I'd bet we'd all be glad to help you do that. Maybe it would help you out with working out some of that resentment.

        Dont hate the players. Hate the game.

        Don't listen to me though. I'm not an "advanced" warrior yet!
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
          Hi kadensnga,

          I believe you have me mistaken with someone else (I don't believe I've ever sold anything via amazon... )

          With respect to Kay, I think this post has gotten waaaaaay off topic, and yes, I think you may have read me incorrectly. Although off topic -- I was objecting to kay's "general" attitude, which was "doesn't affect me, so I don't care".

          The main point I was making with this thread -- is that a small group of individuals are deliberately deceiving people and "taking" money from others under false pretences. That is what upsets me. I really, really, dislike seeing others being manipulated to such an extreme low. And I made this post, hoping that other experienced 'warriors' would help prevent this kind of manipulation, because it affects everyone. Not only people here (i.e., from potential 'future' customers that think twice because they may have gotten burned by this guy), but also to 'keep it clean' & honest.

          There is nothing wrong with making a buck or more. In fact, it's great. But when someone does it deceptively, that is what I object to.

          Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

          Jonathon,

          Not to front you out, but didn't I see you on a thread the other day saying that you could really use an idea like "how to make an extra hundred bucks selling off your used books on Amazon"?

          Really, I dont think you are in a position to argue with someone like Kay. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and if that's not the case I stand corrected. If you really need a hundred bucks, I will be glad to help you make it. Hell , I'd bet we'd all be glad to help you do that. Maybe it would help you out with working out some of that resentment.

          Dont hate the players. Hate the game.

          Don't listen to me though. I'm not an "advanced" warrior yet!
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Okay, I read the thread. Doesn't explain your obsession if YOU didn't lose money to them.

    As Matt says:
    I was going to do a "point-by-point" about everything
    unethical on the page, but it's not worth my time.

    Time for me to go back to making money WITHOUT
    misleading or scamming people...
    If you noticed, there were a few people in that thread that didn't even apparently think the guy goes over the limit.
    See what I mean about people not even knowing the difference between right and wrong. Every time you get rid of one scammer, there are more right behind him.
    This one is really malicious because he sells diet pills -- but honestly, if someone is dumb enough to swallow drugs for a weight problem, they are going to get hurt with
    or without this guy.

    You are so obsessed with this that you are just blinging out on Kay just because she isn't bothering herself with just one more of a list that is as long as her arm since she's been online.

    Yes the guy is a Parana, a jackel, a predator of the worst ilk. But how much time are you losing worrying about him -- what could you have done for your own business in the meantime?

    If you obsess over scammers this much, you will end up sooner or later pulling a move against one of them that will get you sued. You don't just contact servers, etc. unless you have court worthy proof. It's called harrassment - malicious prosecution, and a few other choice terms.

    You only have legal grounds to go after this person after you are scammed or if you can prove that he is using false advertising - prove it, not just say so. The law protects EVERYONE and that is a huge accusation you are making.

    If you have proof, go after him if it suits you, otherwise leave him to people he scams that HAVE proof and reason.

    If you salivate like Pablob's dog every time someone posts a heads up about a scammer you are going to drive yourself right into an institution - and will be too broke to afford a nice one.
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  • Profile picture of the author dorim
    Post deleted
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    • Profile picture of the author unlanthony
      dorim,

      Thanks for finding that, WF should kick his butt outta here!
      Talk about deception, ppl like him cause networks to lose their CPA campaigns due to the fraudulent traffic. I don't need to get into the hassles's it causes and I really do not calling ppl names, I have a few choice words for him. But i'll simple say he is the dredge of the earth!
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      • Profile picture of the author unlanthony
        Hey dorim,

        I see WF deleted that post. Thank you WF for keeping the integrity of this forum!
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  • Profile picture of the author markclimins
    First off, what is so bad about this "guy" (matthewgetsgreen) compared to every other CPA marketer? I see these types of landing pages everywhere. And to mention, I do about $100 bucks a day promoting the same type of offer using the same BS manipulative psychology that he does on my landing page. In my opinion this marketing technique is no different than a person on an infomercial lying and saying they lost 100 pounds using a product and so fourth. Besides, I'll admit that most of these CPA offers are spam and scams. You think people are really getting $10k government checks in their mailboxes as a result of ordering government grant kits online? Is anybody losing tons of weight taking **** berries? Are people getting free restaraunt gift cards sent to them by filling out 2 page form submits? I highly doubt it. And as far as this marketing technique being fraudulent? Fill me in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      I don't see why so many people are getting bent out of shape about these types of sites...
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      • Profile picture of the author RedSynergy
        OMG!! This is a great example of creative marketing. Am I missing something here? It's just like every other fake testimonial site and pretty much every squidoo lens out there. I'm going to make my own one today.

        Also who says the product doesn't provide value? The CPA landing page looks good.

        Sorry if this offends some people but too bad: alot of the people on this forum need to go to marketing 101 school.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          I was thinking the same thing...

          Just about any site that I run across on the internet when I search for something really isn't a whole lot different than this. The only difference is the creativity that went into it.
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          • Profile picture of the author markclimins
            jessegetsgreen dot com

            HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH thats one of his other pages...look at the pictures he used...that is hilarious
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  • Profile picture of the author Robin L.
    Hey, at the risk of sounding stupid again LOL... What is illegal about this? Is it because he gave a fake story, with fake pictures to get someone to click on the link?? Honestly, I don't get how he is scamming people? OR is this grant site his own and there really isn't a product of what he claims? IDK, can someone answer this for me??? thanks!
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Most of them have the disclaimer on them so, they aren't really "illegal"...

      Immoral....maybe, but not illegal.
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        the wonderful thing about this world we live in is that people are so diverse, Johnathan...what might seem like a "scam" to you might seem like brilliant marketing to someone else.

        I too feel that we should pick our battles. I'm more inclined to want to shut down child porn sites then this guy's, because as adults, we need to be accountable for our own actions, whereas children need to be protected. So even though he may possibly be running unethical sites, his target market are adults who should know better.

        Also, I really think your public attack of Kay's character was uncalled for and out of line. I don't know Kay well, but the little I do know about her is that she's anything but selfish. I've seen her contributions here on the forum and they speak volumes.

        One final word: if you have a problem with this person and you have the time and the resources to try and get him shut down, go for it. Just don't expect everyone to feel the same way you do, because, most of us, like Kay, pick our battles, and have far more important things to worry about.
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