Dan Kennedy vs Jay Abraham - which is better to follow for a new entrepreneur? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

4 years ago

Can you provide some additional context about yourself? It's hard to just select one virtual "mentor" in a vacuum, as everything is dependent on your specific circumstances. (How experienced are you with the different facets of Internet Marketing? What are you looking to learn right now? How nascent or established is your business? Etc)

What makes sense for one person may make less sense for another, depending on the objectives of each and where they're respectively at in their IM journeys.

That all said, my high-level take on the two men above is that (a) it's hard to go wrong with either; they're both legends for a reason and (b) Abraham's principles and strategies are particularly useful/relevant to already-successful/established business operators looking to "make the leap" to the next level (through leverage/joint ventures/etc), while Kennedy's genius is especially applicable and relevant to all forms of copywriters looking to learn from one of the greatest in that game.

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johndoer

4 years ago

Right so I've worked as a freelancer of web design services, and I'm looking to grow that business to my own website, outside of Upwork and build a clientele of clients, hire other people, etc. So that's really where I'm at now

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DABK

4 years ago

Dan Kennedy, then. You might want to read Gerber's E-Myth revisited. For setting yourself up better as a business.

Originally Posted by johndoer

Right so I've worked as a freelancer of web design services, and I'm looking to grow that business to my own website, outside of Upwork and build a clientele of clients, hire other people, etc. So that's really where I'm at now

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Matthew Stanley 4 years ago

Yep, would agree with DABK and Jason. Based on where you're at, business-wise, would recommend starting with Kennedy (probably the No BS business book book)
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- JPs copy 4 years ago
  
  The No BS books are a great place to start. No BS Sales Success in the New Economy is probably my all-time favorite. No BS Direct Marketing and No BS Time Management are also good reads.
  
  DK also has an AWAI program called Business of Copywriting Academy, that I've listened to 50 times. He covers why you should seek out a better quality of clients, why you shouldn't feel bad charging more money and a whole host of other "common sense" items that can be transferred to other businesses.
  
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  Matthew Stanley 4 years ago
  
  That's a great metric to evaluate by: How many re-listens/views. And yeah DK separates himself there for sure.
  
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Tanda Copywriting

4 years ago

I think I respectfully disagree with most of the people here. I've studied both Jay and Dan, and I run a direct response agency selling high-ticket 2K-20K funnels.

Having said that, from a business point of view, nothing compares to Jay Abraham. He will teach you strategy and a certain mindset that will be invaluable to everything that you do. You will learn to think BIG and skip over steps. Jason Kanigan below says that Jay is better for when you already have something going. Once again, I think that is very mistaken. Jay is about "getting everything you can, out of all you've got". Your response: "but what if I don't have anything yet?" WRONG! That is exactly why you need to read Jay, because you THINK you've got nothing. If you really got nothing, let me tell you, there would be no way to get anything. In fact, the irony is that you can NEVER do anything BUT "get everything you can out of all you've got"... what else are you going to get things out of? What you don't have?

Bottom line is that you always start with your own resources. If you don't have clients, and you don't have a list, what do you have? You have a willingness to serve, skills in web design I suppose, and your own ability to relate to and help others. Jay would say that's great - you have a LOT of value to offer. You must learn to use the value that you have to get access to what you don't have yet. Maybe someone runs a marketing agency, but they need development help. Reach out to them, strike a partnership, and get access to their clients - to years of work they've invested in the business.

So let me ask you... would you rather spend 4-5 years getting your web design agency going, struggling to get clients, and so on? Or do you want a shortcut that will get you there in 1 year, instead of 5? If so, read Jay.

Dan is more specific when it comes to learning direct marketing & copywriting more specifically and great for tactics but comes short on the strategy side. Poor strategy with great tactics and implementation will not get you anywhere except at the speed of a snail.

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DABK

4 years ago

I've come to my conclusions form dong the same. I've added to things this; a lot of people who're starting out in business do not get the part of Jay you're talking about.

But they would get Dan.

In your part of the world it might be different. There are people around me for whom Jay is the best option, but they're fewer.

Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting

I think I respectfully disagree with most of the people here. I've studied both Jay and Dan, and I run a direct response agency selling high-ticket 2K-20K funnels.

Having said that, from a business point of view, nothing compares to Jay Abraham. He will teach you strategy and a certain mindset that will be invaluable to everything that you do. You will learn to think BIG and skip over steps. Jason Kanigan below says that Jay is better for when you already have something going. Once again, I think that is very mistaken. Jay is about "getting everything you can, out of all you've got". Your response: "but what if I don't have anything yet?" WRONG! That is exactly why you need to read Jay, because you THINK you've got nothing. If you really got nothing, let me tell you, there would be no way to get anything. In fact, the irony is that you can NEVER do anything BUT "get everything you can out of all you've got"... what else are you going to get things out of? What you don't have?

Bottom line is that you always start with your own resources. If you don't have clients, and you don't have a list, what do you have? You have a willingness to serve, skills in web design I suppose, and your own ability to relate to and help others. Jay would say that's great - you have a LOT of value to offer. You must learn to use the value that you have to get access to what you don't have yet. Maybe someone runs a marketing agency, but they need development help. Reach out to them, strike a partnership, and get access to their clients - to years of work they've invested in the business.

So let me ask you... would you rather spend 4-5 years getting your web design agency going, struggling to get clients, and so on? Or do you want a shortcut that will get you there in 1 year, instead of 5? If so, read Jay.

Dan is more specific when it comes to learning direct marketing & copywriting more specifically and great for tactics but comes short on the strategy side. Poor strategy with great tactics and implementation will not get you anywhere except at the speed of a snail.

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Tanda Copywriting 4 years ago

Thank you for the response, I appreciate it, and I can see where you're coming from

Why do you think people would not get the part I'm talking about from Jay?

Take a look at something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NNK...nel=JayAbraham

I think this is perfect for someone like the OP to think bigger and move ahead faster!
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Claude Whitacre

4 years ago

Originally Posted by DABK

I've come to my conclusions form dong the same. I've added to things this; a lot of people who're starting out in business do not get the part of Jay you're talking about.

But they would get Dan.
.

That's it. Abraham is fantastic, but a little more advanced. In fact, I think you have to know something about marketing before you'll get much of what he teaches.

Kennedy? You can learn starting now. By the way, there is no need to spend a ton of money here. Just go to E-bay, and get plenty of Kennedy training programs for $15 or $20. Get Kennedy's Copywriting course "Dan Kennedy Copywriting Seminar In A Box ". You can get it on a single CD for less than $20.

And there is lots of Kennedy material on Youtube as well.

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GordonJ 4 years ago

Originally Posted by Tanda Copywriting

from a business point of view, nothing compares to Jay Abraham.

Time frame? One year or 5 years from studying one or the other? Doesn't that depend on what he brings to the table otherwise?

Anyhow, to second the point made by Jason K. as saying they both "stole like an artist", very true, if you know their histories.

Jay studied with Bud Weckesser before sitting at the feet of Harvey Brody, and I might argue, Jay has added very little to what he learned from Brody as regards strategy.

Dan shadowed Halbert. And at a point in time in L.A. all three of them; Kennedy, Halbert and Abraham were students of Harvey Brody.

As for the OP, these are just two of several choices, without knowing more about YOU and what you offer, or bring, or can do or won't do...how can any of us offer anything other than our opinions?

You may find that neither one of these guys is the best match for what you want to do. It is a big world out there of marketers and gurus.

That being said, start today to read and study as much as you can from both of them, why not? But start after you have decided what you want to do and why.

GordonJ

PS For OP, join scribd, they have a lot of Kennedy and Abraham stuff there, for 10 bux a month, a BARGAIN.
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Jason Kanigan

4 years ago

Having followed both of them for more years than I care to count (I started reading DK's books in the 90s, before he partnered with Bill Glazer)...

...Dan is the one for newbies to follow.

Jay is great, don't get me wrong. You can't make a mistake following the strategy of preeminence. However, I find his "here's what to do" lacking compared to Dan's... go read the No BS Pricing Strategy book and contrast it against Getting Everything You Can Out Of All You've Got.

Jay is better for when you've got something going on... a baseline that you can start pulling interesting insights and different ways of doing things in from other industries to use in your own field.

Starting from scratch, it's Dan Kennedy for me.

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JPs copy 4 years ago

I feel the same way. Jay is okay and raises some good points, but I really haven't re-read, re-listened or re-watched anything of Jay's.
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ChrisLarry

4 years ago

Awesome I appreciate your efforts and really impressive guide about the topicThat for you selected
Jay Abraham is a good and raises easily good points them

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agmccall

4 years ago

I like the Affiliate Marketing Dude

al

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TobiMDD

4 years ago

I never heard of them and I'm over two years in the affiliate marketing niche, I guess they are not that important than ;-)

(I can feel the shitstorm in my neck)

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DABK

4 years ago

Nah, no shit storm. Just an observation: you're losing by not knowing...Them or some others like them.

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

I never heard of them and I'm over two years in the affiliate marketing niche, I guess they are not that important than ;-)

(I can feel the shitstorm in my neck)

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Jason Kanigan

4 years ago

Originally Posted by TobiMDD

I never heard of them and I'm over two years in the affiliate marketing niche, I guess they are not that important than ;-)

(I can feel the shitstorm in my neck)

Most--nearly all--of the affiliate marketing stuff you think you know came from them, Dan especially. You don't need to know them... it's the history, though. Dan will be the first to say he stole like an artist from those who came before. Jay tends to present himself as a self-made Renaissance Man, and he's not wrong but he did not create everything he shares.

Both have been in the game for a very long time and have the scars and results to prove it. Some 20-year-old who just showed up and presented an idea to you as if he "discovered it" likely stole like an artist from them...or from someone who did.

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Tanda Copywriting 4 years ago

IMO, studying these guys gives you a deeper understanding of the marketing process, which will make you a better marketer. It is possible to get results by copying this or that "guru" with the latest tactic that works now, but if you don't understand the strategies behind, you will struggle to adapt in the future and create new tactics yourself.

For affiliate marketing specifically, Dan Kennedy is a must imo! Jay not so much. But for any kind of service/consulting biz, definitely don't skip Jay
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Declan O Flaherty

4 years ago

Split the difference between them both and take a look at Rich Shefren

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GordonJ

4 years ago

Originally Posted by johndoer

Hi Warriors,

Just literarily joined now and I wanted to ask you which one of those two marketing geniuses would be better to follow as you start and when you're looking to grow/expand your biz?

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You only gave us two options johndoer, and although they are good ones, neither one may be suitable for you, because we don't know what YOUR biz is, or where and how you want to grow it.

See, there are FIVE basic paths to follow, and I'll give you real life examples of each one, all very successful, in fact, all millionaires, OK?

BIZ MODEL ONE, the 1 Man Band. Harvey Brody has been running his business now for over 60 years, with the help of his wife and daughter, part time help, and he works a few hours a day.

SIXTY years of continuous success, multi million dollar business from his home office.

BIZ MODEL TWO. Friends and family biz. Ben Suarez started a biz in his garage with his brother, sister and some friends. He wanted to build a biz for his friends and family. At its peak, his company SCI, was a 100 million dollar biz with over 800 full time employees. It was also the incubator for two other huge businesses, FITNESS QUEST, started by Ben's brother...and Arthur Middleton Capitol Holdings, started by his son in law.

BIZ MODEL THREE. Big time. Sure we all know of Bezos, Zuckerman, Gates and Jobs. But consider guys like Burt Morgan, co-founder of one and founder of another FORTUNE 500 companies. The companies he started (forerunner to Avery Dennison and MACTAC) do internation business into the hundreds of millions of dollars and employ thousands of people. Do you want that kind of growth?

BIZ MODEL FOUR. Serial Entrepreneur. His name was Ed Barr, he owned a stable with training race track, restaurants, gift shops, an oil company, real estate and built one of the nicest living areas in the county. He loved juggling his business, all were successful and he made more money than most of us count.

BIZ MODEL FIVE. HAPPY owner/worker. Fred Felice is the only one who I don't know for certain about his finances, however, I do know he turned down a million dollars to sell his pizza shop (with name and recipes). He told me, "what would I do"? See, his pizza shop gave him a purpose, a place to go, although he spent a lot of time in the back room playing poker with his buddies, it was his purpose.

We have guys here who are OWNERS of small business, some brick and mortar, and they like what they do...would prefer the WORK over having tons of money to do what? ...run around the world? Sure, some want that.

But somewhere in this mix is a combo which may suit you the best. I don't know which one of these or other biz models you have in mind. But I do know that there are many so-called geniuses which could help you reach your goals, and for several of these, a better choice for your time, attention and money would be someone NOT named Kennedy or Abraham.

Which model do you think today you want to take you business toward?

GordonJ

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johndoer

4 years ago

Thanks for the great reply Gordon.

Well, as I mentioned in one post above, I've currently worked as a freelancer in web design, and I'm able to pull in roughly 40-45K/year through places like Upwork.

I really want to increase my income and stop having to do all the work myself, and hopefully build a business like BIZ MODEL TWO or THREE that you mentioned. I am an ambitious person, so I would love to get into the Fortune 500 space, though I imagine that may be very difficult and imply certain sacrifices that I'm not that willing to make (such as raise VC money and give up ownership, etc.).

The ideal for me is building a company that I can hold onto a majority stake at least, and I'd love to grow it as big as possible.

Currently I'm looking to get entirely off Upwork, and build stuff around a web design agency, because I just don't have any better idea AND I feel I don't have sufficient capital to try something else yet.

If you have any advice for me, or maybe suggest a different direction based on my goals, and people that I could look into, I would definitely appreciate

Thank you once again for your already very thoughtful replies!

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Tanda Copywriting 4 years ago

Till GordonJ gets back to you, you may want to look at Ben Suarez's books: 7 Steps to Freedom - much along the lines of what you're interested in.

In addition, I also recommend something like Blue Ocean Strategy or Positioning to teach you how to stand out, since design is quite crowded.
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GordonJ

4 years ago

Originally Posted by johndoer

I really want to increase my income and stop having to do all the work myself, and hopefully build a business like BIZ MODEL TWO or THREE that you mentioned. I am an ambitious person, so I would love to get into the Fortune 500 space, though I imagine that may be very difficult and imply certain sacrifices that I'm not that willing to make (such as raise VC money and give up ownership, etc.).

The ideal for me is building a company that I can hold onto a majority stake at least, and I'd love to grow it as big as possible.

Currently I'm looking to get entirely off Upwork, and build stuff around a web design agency, because I just don't have any better idea AND I feel I don't have sufficient capital to try something else yet.

If you have any advice for me, or maybe suggest a different direction based on my goals, and people that I could look into, I would definitely appreciate

Thank you once again for your already very thoughtful replies!

Thanks johndoer for giving some more info. First, I'm blunt, an old man with not a lot of time in my tank, some might say brutal...but I'm not mean. OK?

I highlighted in red the red flags you have in your post. It is too ambitious...albeit, I don't rain on anyone's parade, once I've rendered my opinion.

Here is what I think you should do. For about 10 bux, you can have a hard copy of 7 STEPS TO FREEDOM by Benjamin D. Suarez delivered to your door.

Stop all other activity and read this book. It is a BORING, "ponderous tome" (I know because I did the last edit on the book)...full of math, details, and droning on and on and on...and with that being said, it may be the best blueprint for building a big business out there.

The plans, formulas and methods built 3 hundred million dollar businesses and dozens of one man bands who do very well (thank you very much).

And yet, at 100 million a year, 10x shy of the Billion a year the really big boys get.

The red flag I saw was your not understanding of the commitment it takes for a decade to give everything you got to building your business. Sure, you could be making some tall cotton in a few years (or even months), but once you get comfortable money, it requires a dedication which most people lack to go on and build something huge.

But go ahead and try it. Read the book cover to cover. Then ask yourself how your plan stacks up to all that work ahead of you. Hiring KEY people to carry out your mission is one of the most critical steps to a big business, nobody does it alone.

So, get the book and if at the end you have either reconsidered or have decided to go ahead, then know you have tested, proven formulas, methods and techniques which have produced RESULTS. Again, it is a tough read.

But I don't know of any other resource which clearly lays out the blueprint, from actually doing it, for building a business with 800+ employees. If you are still enthused with the idea of going big, then you have some solid information to build upon.

Any model you choose is doable, and maybe you will be on the FORBES 400 list, if so, give us old Warriors a little bitty thank you.

GordonJ

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DABK

4 years ago

If the book Gordon's recommending tells you you don't want to go that way, you might want to read the E-Myth Revisited by Gerber (it covers how to set up a small business so you end up with an actual business.. systems that can be sold). (Suarez has a chapter on that.)

Originally Posted by GordonJ

Thanks johndoer for giving some more info. First, I'm blunt, an old man with not a lot of time in my tank, some might say brutal...but I'm not mean. OK?

I highlighted in red the red flags you have in your post. It is too ambitious...albeit, I don't rain on anyone's parade, once I've rendered my opinion.

Here is what I think you should do. For about 10 bux, you can have a hard copy of 7 STEPS TO FREEDOM by Benjamin D. Suarez delivered to your door.

Stop all other activity and read this book. It is a BORING, "ponderous tome" (I know because I did the last edit on the book)...full of math, details, and droning on and on and on...and with that being said, it may be the best blueprint for building a big business out there.

The plans, formulas and methods built 3 hundred million dollar businesses and dozens of one man bands who do very well (thank you very much).

And yet, at 100 million a year, 10x shy of the Billion a year the really big boys get.

The red flag I saw was your not understanding of the commitment it takes for a decade to give everything you got to building your business. Sure, you could be making some tall cotton in a few years (or even months), but once you get comfortable money, it requires a dedication which most people lack to go on and build something huge.

But go ahead and try it. Read the book cover to cover. Then ask yourself how your plan stacks up to all that work ahead of you. Hiring KEY people to carry out your mission is one of the most critical steps to a big business, nobody does it alone.

So, get the book and if at the end you have either reconsidered or have decided to go ahead, then know you have tested, proven formulas, methods and techniques which have produced RESULTS. Again, it is a tough read.

But I don't know of any other resource which clearly lays out the blueprint, from actually doing it, for building a business with 800+ employees. If you are still enthused with the idea of going big, then you have some solid information to build upon.

Any model you choose is doable, and maybe you will be on the FORBES 400 list, if so, give us old Warriors a little bitty thank you.

GordonJ

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GordonJ

4 years ago

Originally Posted by DABK

If the book Gordon's recommending tells you you don't want to go that way, you might want to read the E-Myth Revisited by Gerber (it covers how to set up a small business so you end up with an actual business.. systems that can be sold). (Suarez has a chapter on that.)

Yes, thanks DABK, I too would suggest Gerber...in fact, I think it is a better choice for 98 out of 100 would be business owners. More realistic for most of us. The slop and mess and HEADACHES (seen up close and personal) from having that big of a business, like SCI, makes me dizzy.

If it were me younger, getting started, I'd go with Gerber and more recent stuff, albeit, wanting to remain a one man operation with minimal help and maximum profits.

People get to choose whatever they want. Probably too much info out here on getting a business started.

GordonJ

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stiger1

4 years ago

I would say, Dan Kennedy because I've noticed in a lot of his writings he uses a formula called (AIDA).
Attention (grabs the prospect attention)
Intrest (a product or service of interest)
Desire (persuade the customer that they want to own this product or service)
Action (take action the purchase of the product or service)
This formula is an easy way of writing sales letters, Blog posts, Emails, etc.

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oppyeaunome

4 years ago

Believe me you can't go wrong with Dan Kennedy. He's easy to follow in the beginning and gives you a more step by step approach.

Jay is more about doing big business. Yes his strategies do work, but it's about where you are right now.

You are in the starting stage and Kennedy will teach more about how to get your business up and running and how to think while running your business.

For now start with Dan and when you reach the level of being able to apply Jay's techniques, then you move into his material.

Overall you can't go wrong with learning from both, but spend more time with Dan for now.

Hope this helps.