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Wanting advice from experienced copywriters who have seen it all...

by Lewisdalton
29 replies
Hello

After a year of intensely studying the craft and cramming my schedule with projects, I've managed to get myself a job as the copywriter at a global, online wine seller.

However, their current copywriter is still there but leaves in two weeks (i.e. reason I was brought in.) She hasn't studied the craft at all and got promoted to that position from within the company due to writing their blog. Anyway, I'm a bit concerned and would love your advice.

I'll be writing their marketing copy (mainly short emails), which goes out very regularly. However, their current email marketing is quite garish and uses statements such as 'Godzilla-sized'. The emails are targeted at existing customers and members of their various wine clubs, who're spending between £7and £20 on single bottles, but often buy cases of 12. The emails generally talk about the company rather than the customer (is this a common membership thing?)

This is everything I'm not supposed to do from experience/studying the craft. However, since this writer has been there, everyone seems to think that's how it should be, or so it seems. So, I'm feeling a bit disillusioned. It goes against everything I've studied. I guess what I'm asking for from you experienced lot who've 'been here and done that', is advice on how to proceed.

How do you convince them that this way is wrong. Everyone seems to get the chance to critique the copy before it goes out, so I have more than one person to convince. Or, do I just get on with it and do what they want (which I'm worried will teach me bad habits.)

Sorry for the essay and I really appreciate your help.

Thanks
---

I'm not the most active member, But i do read the forum a few times a week to keep an eye on things.

I looked in the Email marketing forum, but realised this was probably best here.
#advice #copywriters #experienced #wanting
  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Convince them to test. There's money in testing, so it shouldn't be hard to persuade them.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Stop. At least hit the pause button on your thinking.

    First, you're asking the wrong people. We are not your customers.

    Second, muy rapido you need to be studying your market--competitors, suppliers, your customers as well as what your management wants to portray in terms of a brand.

    Let them be your guide.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: You could have quite the opportunity on your hands. For instance, sign up for this:

    Sign Up | Garagiste Wine

    Please keep in mind I'm NOT advocating YOU write emails like this below. You have to do your homework first. But this company/guy does $30 million all by generating emails like this:

    Subject: Name to Watch

    Dear Friends,

    Can you remember the last time you tasted (or witnessed) something that you knew would be a household name within no time?

    I felt that way when I stumbled into a Chipotle while visiting Email List members in Minneapolis back in 1999/2000 - I wondered “why isn't this in every college town in the US?”.

    I guess we don’t have to answer that query.

    The same can be said about a number of wine producers - there was a moment when you knew they were about to become something special...

    Maybe they already are.

    Before the $ goes through the roof on this producer, allow me to introduce a Washington entity that defines exactly what differentiates Bordeaux varietal production north of the 45th parallel in the Western United States: authentic, cool-climate results with a neo-St. Estephe meets St. Julien quality that cannot be duplicated in Napa/Sonoma.

    What I'm getting at is restraint – I don’t mean “no fruit” restraint – there’s plenty of fruit but there's a harmony and serious quality to the tannins and balanced presence that results in a tough to pull off combination so many have chased (“the new Bordeaux!”) but have been unable to achieve in Washington State.

    Say hello to Auclair – a name to watch and to secure now while the tariff structure is as low as it gets for domestic wine of this quality.

    With not only one but TWO of their three red wines in the Washington State Top 100 (that debuted a few weeks ago), for a nearly unknown entity, that is telling (my guess is that their third red, the “Right Blend” was not far off the pace, it is equally as good but they couldn't include all three of their red wines, could they?).

    Considering the $ below, Auclair is producing wine to cellar in quantity as the value is pretty darn tough to top. The 2011 “96 Cedars” has to rank as one of Washington's very best price/satisfaction wines so I'm not that surprised that it made the top five bargains in the state (consider how many established/lauded wineries there are in Washington State to put that into perspective?). You can give the 2011 96 Cedars to anyone as a gift or tote it to a dinner party and you will be the star of the evening - well, the wine will be the star but you will be a runner up for introducing it to everyone

    Why is Auclair so good when so many others are not?

    They key is simple: Red Mountain.

    The other key is oak use: they are not slathered with wood (oak is used but it is used as a compliment).

    The other, other key is the vintage: 2011.

    2011 has the potential to be a signature Red Mountain campaign and one that will be studied as examples age. It's an old-school year with actual freshness and acidity aligned to deeply pitched/Northern Medoc-like fruit and ripe/rugged tannins. The Left Bank blend below highlights this with strength and resolve – it's a wine that grows in the glass and over many hours, peaking on day 2/3 open but it never loses sight of the breed and restraint I referred to above – a “Washington State” poster child if ever a generalization was to be made.

    How then...

    The wine of Auclair is already very difficult to find (nearly impossible outside of the Northwest) and the bottles are only going to get more difficult to procure and more $$$$.

    I have a feeling this one is going to be fought over...

    This parcel is directly from the winery cellar (a morning’s drive from our warehouse) - it has the finest original provenance available.

    ONE SHIPMENT ONLY of both wines – we cannot obtain a single extra bottle!

    FIRST COME FIRST SERVED up to 36 x “96 Cedars” and 12 x “Left Blend” until we run out:

    2011 Auclair “96 Cedars” Red Wine Columbia Valley 750ml - $18.80
    (do not confuse this with the lower priced 96 Cedars Blanc!)

    Sean Sullivan: “2011 96 Cedars Red Wine: A Red Mountain wine in Columbia Valley clothing and the first vintage as a Cabernet Franc offering, it’s an immediately appealing, complex wine with laser focused notes of blackberries and raspberries, bittersweet chocolate, cinnamon, floral notes, cocoa, black licorice, mineral and cassis. The fruit flavors are supple and seamless, brightened by well balanced acidity, coating the palate while showing minimal excess alcoholic weight and supported by beautifully integrated tannins with spot on balance throughout. An impressive find at this price that truly speaks to its vintage (2011). 53% Merlot 27% Cabernet Sauvignon and 20% Cabernet Franc. Artz Vineyard. Excellent/Exceptional - 4.5/5.0”

    Top 100/Bang for the Buck #4 (October 2014): “Auclair Winery 96 Cedars Red Wine Columbia Valley 2011 ($25): Don’t let the Columbia Valley designation fool you; this blend of Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, and Cabernet Franc is Red Mountain and Artz Vineyard fruit and has just a kiss of new oak (17 percent). It shines with dark fruit, black licorice, and an absolutely mesmerizing texture. Drink This: To feel like a thief without actually stealing.” (this wine is such a good value, it’s a little ridiculous – the signature of Washington State is accomplished with verve and without an obtuse disposition. A major success in the $15-20 range and a holiday case pour of excellence for your room full of hungry/thirsty travelers. This is the last of the 2011 vintage, the Top 100 review has put an even greater stress on allocations and they are nearly sold out. You may be able to find the 2010 around but not the top-level 2011 - JR)

    2011 Auclair “Left Blend” Red Wine Artz Vineyard 750ml (Red Mountain) - $29.71

    Sean Sullivan: “2011 Auclaire Left Blend: Locked up tightly with juicy black cherries, sweet herbal notes, briary ground berries, licorice, mineral notes, and wood spice. It’s densely flavored with abundant cherry notes that coat the palate from end to end, buffeted by firm but not unyielding tannins, before hanging around for a long, fruit filled finish with a touch of cinnamon. Though drinking well now, give it some time in the cellar to see it truly shine. 66% Cabernet Sauvignon, 17% Merlot and 17% Cabernet Franc. Aged in French oak (66% new). Exceptional – 5.0/5.0”

    Top 100/Bordeaux Blends #13 (October 2014): “Auclair Winery ‘Left Blend’ Red Wine Artz Vineyard/Red Mountain 2011 ($45): Woodinville winemaker Charlie Auclair is quietly making some top quality wines as shown on this Cabernet Sauvignon–centric blend, with its notes of dark fruit and baking spices supported by burly tannins and tart acids. Drink This: In two to five years, or paired with food now if you really can’t wait.” (this a one-time situation – the wine is normally $40-50 – and the winery is down to a few dozen cases, also due to allocation pressures from the Top 100 review. If you want to get on board a vastly underpriced expression for the quality, something with designs on pre-1994 Quilceda Creek with Red Mountain wisdom 15-20 years older than it was in 1994, I will say no more... - JR)

    To order: simply reply to this email (be sure not to change the subject line in your email or your order may get dropped to the end of the stack (if we can’t find your request!).

    This parcel is not a long-term pre-arrival – it will land in a week or so and will ship with your region’s schedule (weather permitting!). Please check The Center for local pick up after Nov 7th. Drink the 96 Cedars: 2014 – 2018+; the Left Blend: 2016 – 2022+.

    Out of state orders will be held for free under ideal storage conditions (56 degrees/70%humidity) until shipping is possible. Locals may pick up at their leisure.


    -----

    Look up the company. You'll find a wonderful article about them from the NYT.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewisdalton
    Thanks for your quick reply. Yeah. I'm only on my first week though, so not sure whether I should kick up the hornets nest just yet. Do you think I'm right here though? I mean, the emails must be working a bit, but I don't know if that's just the offer regardless

    --

    Rick, thanks for that reply. Yeah, they're more interested in short, almost flash offers. Which is frustrating cos I want to write quality copy, which isn't based around a huge SAVING images and literally 4 or 5 lines of text.

    Thanks for the advice
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by Lewisdalton View Post

      Rick, thanks for that reply. Yeah, they're more interested in short, almost flash offers. Which is frustrating cos I want to write quality copy, which isn't based around a huge SAVING images and literally 4 or 5 lines of text.
      They may be in a "if it works, don't fix it" mode. They may have already succumbed to the "not invented here" syndrome.

      I wouldn't fight it.

      In my work, I have to make both the client and the market happy. Sure, it'd be nice to focus on just one, but this is reality we're talking about here.

      - Rick Duris
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by Lewisdalton View Post

    Hello

    After a year of intensely studying the craft and cramming my schedule with projects, I've managed to get myself a job as the copywriter at a global, online wine seller.

    However, their current copywriter is still there but leaves in two weeks (i.e. reason I was brought in.) She hasn't studied the craft at all and got promoted to that position from within the company due to writing their blog. Anyway, I'm a bit concerned and would love your advice.

    I'll be writing their marketing copy (mainly short emails), which goes out very regularly. However, their current email marketing is quite garish and uses statements such as 'Godzilla-sized'. The emails are targeted at existing customers and members of their various wine clubs, who're spending between £7and £20 on single bottles, but often buy cases of 12. The emails generally talk about the company rather than the customer (is this a common membership thing?)

    This is everything I'm not supposed to do from experience/studying the craft. However, since this writer has been there, everyone seems to think that's how it should be, or so it seems. So, I'm feeling a bit disillusioned. It goes against everything I've studied. I guess what I'm asking for from you experienced lot who've 'been here and done that', is advice on how to proceed.

    How do you convince them that this way is wrong. Everyone seems to get the chance to critique the copy before it goes out, so I have more than one person to convince. Or, do I just get on with it and do what they want (which I'm worried will teach me bad habits.)

    Sorry for the essay and I really appreciate your help.

    Thanks
    ---

    I'm not the most active member, But i do read the forum a few times a week to keep an eye on things.

    I looked in the Email marketing forum, but realised this was probably best here.
    Are they testing?

    If not, that's their first and biggest mistake. Why not sell them on why they need to start? Be smarter than trying to tell them they've been doing it wrong all these years. And don't assume that people won't respond to informal language just because they're spending a lot of money OR that talking about the company instead of the customer is a bad idea.

    Those copywriting cats that say you should never talk about your company, most of them just don't know any better. People want to know who they're spending money with. Hell, 64% of consumers site common values as the leading cause of customer loyalty. You can't communicate that without talking about your company.

    Get them testing first, you can't argue with math.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Lewis,

    You're in an unenviable spot in that you're not coming in from a position of authority plus you're dealing with writing copy by committee - both of which are typically NOT GOOD THINGS from the perspective of the busy, well-paid freelancer but somewhat expected when you're dealing with a company who doesn't really understand how great direct-response marketing is done.

    But it seems like you really want/need to kick ass with this gig so with only what you've shared to go on, here's my simple advice - boil the frog. Slowly turn up the heat so the frog doesn't even notice it's being cooked.

    1) Learn their system and earn their trust by functionally and reliably replacing their current writer. Don't freak yourself or them out about reinventing their marketing YET. Initially, focus on delivering what they believe they need, consistently. That buys you some confidence and them some anxiety relief.

    2) Ease them into trying some new promotions where the potential upside is greatest and the risk is lowest. Stack a few wins and survive a few bombs. At this point, the script flips a little and the confidence goes to them while the anxiety relief is yours.

    3) Push for bold new ideas and approaches (for them, anyway) where HUGE gains can be materialized. Bet the chips you've stacked in step 1 and 2. Get some skin in the game. Ask for a piece of the action. Restructure your compensation. Make it worth YOUR while and THEIRS to swing for a home run.

    Hope this helps,

    Brian
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    Brian McLeod
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewisdalton
    Rick, I think that's exactly what kind of mode they're in. I can't fight it yet, even if I wanted to, but have to eventually as it's just badly written copy. And, I don't want to get in the habit of that.

    ---

    Brian, I think you may be on to a winner. They saw my portfolio and asked me to complete two briefs for their company before I started. So, they must like the way I write or they wouldn't have hired me - I guess. But, I think what you've suggested is probably the way I'm going to have to go. Just a little frustrating as it takes away from what I expected it to be. Thanks for the great advice.

    ---

    Seth - They send out so many regular direct emails that they don't seem to have time to test them. I think that's the issues.

    And, are you suggesting I just cave and follow suit. I.e. That's the best way to sell to a membership group/wine club? Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Lewis,

    I've been in a similar position. The company didn't want a copywriter...they wanted a blogger who occasionally wrote emails.

    Brian's tactics actually worked for me, though I don't think I was aware of what I was doing at the time. That was my intuitive approach - let it go when it didn't really matter, fight for testing and/or just throwing it out to see what happened when it did. After awhile, they stopped being so nervous when I threw crazier and crazier ideas out. They were willing to try what I recommended because they could see the numbers.

    If you really want this job, a combo of Rick's and Brian's advice is just what the doctor ordered.

    1. Master the market.
    2. Master the backdoor approach, and be prepared to have to convince other people it was their idea in order to get the damn thing off the ground.
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      Lewis,

      I've been in a similar position. The company didn't want a copywriter...they wanted a blogger who occasionally wrote emails.

      Brian's tactics actually worked for me, though I don't think I was aware of what I was doing at the time. That was my intuitive approach - let it go when it didn't really matter, fight for testing and/or just throwing it out to see what happened when it did. After awhile, they stopped being so nervous when I threw crazier and crazier ideas out. They were willing to try what I recommended because they could see the numbers.

      If you really want this job, a combo of Rick's and Brian's advice is just what the doctor ordered.

      1. Master the market.
      2. Master the backdoor approach, and be prepared to have to convince other people it was their idea in order to get the damn thing off the ground.
      True words.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    To convince them, try to get them to verbalize your ideas as if they thought of them. If they say it, they are taking ownership, and it becomes a real thing in their minds. You'll see the beginning of this process when they start to modify your ideas out loud. Things like:

    "It will make it a little better if we..."
    "I like the core concept, but what we need to do is..."
    "The only way this will work is if we..."

    Or they will act like know-it-alls:

    "Yup, we did this exact thing on the Anderson campaign."
    "Yup, this is an old technique. I've seen it before."
    "This is the (fill in name of ad theory). I've done it. We have to be careful."
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author MatthewRHallEsq
    Based on your comments, it sounds like the kind of business where they are going to want to copy your competition without having the data to understand why your competition is doing what its doing.

    The bad part is that short, flash emails deliver immediate results. It's like negative reinforcement. Instead of learning the lesson that careful email marketing works, it looks like the company seems to think constant flash sales are the best option.

    (I have a client who does a similar thing. Or at least wants to. I also worked for a similar company.)

    Honestly (and this might sound cynical), here's my advice. Do the following, and your next gig will be great.
    1. Save copies of EVERYTHING you write for them. Don't just leave it in the company's Google Apps Drive, which will be gone when you leave.
    2. Try to write a really great piece at least once per week. They'll want you to pump out crap with zero turnaround time. It'll be hard to write something great every time. But start by making one email per week really great so you get some good practice for yourself.
    3. Tell them you need access to analytics to understand what your customers are thinking, and then track how sales increase as you've been employed. This data will be useful in landing future jobs.
    4. Keep learning and improving your copywriting skills. See this job as a well-paid internship with no definite end (though you probably won't be there more than a year).
    5. After you've been there two months and understand how the office works, write a killer plan to win them over with the changes you want to make. Email me (matt@matthallwritescopy.com) and I'll send you a sample of one I did in a similar situation.
    6. Keep looking for new opportunities, and make a plan. Where do you want to end up? Do you want to stay a copywriter, become a digital marketing strategist, or something else? Having a plan will allow you to craft your experience in this job so it prepares you for your next gig.

    Good luck! I've been there myself and could only last 9 months before quitting to work for myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewisdalton
    Thank you guys so much. Lots of great advice and I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me.

    They just want a big flashy banner that states the big offer, then a bit of short, 'wacky' text of a few sentences. I've never really wrote like this before, my previous projects are more traditional. So it'll be tough to really dumb down for them as I gain their trust.

    Just really conscious about slogging away writing tripe for them and gaining bad habits. I'll try my best though.

    Also, great call on trying to make my ideas theirs.

    Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
    Yeah. Sneak attack.

    1. Befriend - go in, get the lay of the land, elicit their values (what makes them tick).
    2. Turn - give them credit for coming up with your idea
    3. Own - repeat with additional ideas until you reach tipping point when you become the GOD (or go-to guy if you're not comfortable with GOD status) and everyone looks to you. Very hard for them to resist you because you've conditioned them to have good feelings about you with this process.

    This is something you do over a period of time (weeks/months), not in a single meeting. Subtle not wham-bam.

    If you meet anyone that resists, just do the same with them. Most likely they're resisting because they feel left out.

    Warning: You could very well own this business down the road doing stuff like this. Just be sure you have some solid guidance so you're doing the right things copy-wise and execute.

    Now where was I? Oh yeah, back to my cloud.
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    Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewisdalton
    'Own' as in be a big influence, I presume you mean.

    I definitely think churning out big flash, garish emails with minimal copy is what I'm going to have to do for the meantime. The issue is because they do so many sales on so many different cases of wine, there's multiple going out a week. Meaning, can this really ever change... Or do I just cut my teeth properly here and then move onwards and upwards...
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by Lewisdalton View Post

      'Own' as in be a big influence, I presume you mean.

      I definitely think churning out big flash, garish emails with minimal copy is what I'm going to have to do for the meantime. The issue is because they do so many sales on so many different cases of wine, there's multiple going out a week. Meaning, can this really ever change... Or do I just cut my teeth properly here and then move onwards and upwards...
      Only you can really have the answer to that question. We only have what you tell us to go on. Not knowing specifics or personalities, all we can tell you is what we told you.

      You worked hard to get there. You applied. Sounds like something you want.

      Try it out. Do the work. Give yourself a deadline to decide if it's for you.

      If nothing else you have the resume and the bit of training under your belt.

      It's all about leverage. Grab whatever numbers and experience you can out of this and use it to launch yourself into your next opportunity.

      But it's really all up to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
      Originally Posted by Lewisdalton View Post

      'Own' as in be a big influence, I presume you mean.
      Absolutely. Great thinking!
      You can take it as far as you want.

      Here's what you're leveraging here (damn I can't believe I'm sharing this - but what the heck)... understanding/empathy AND appreciation.

      See most people don't feel understood by even their closest family and friends, if you go in and really develop this, it's a lock in with them. In addition, most people feel under-appreciated in their work, if you credit them with stuff, they'll stick to you like glue.

      So yeah. Excellent thinking there. You're definitely heading in the right direction with this.

      See how it works?

      You love me just a little right about now, don't you?

      Originally Posted by Lewisdalton View Post

      I definitely think churning out big flash, garish emails with minimal copy is what I'm going to have to do for the meantime. The issue is because they do so many sales on so many different cases of wine, there's multiple going out a week. Meaning, can this really ever change... Or do I just cut my teeth properly here and then move onwards and upwards...
      You can always do tests with a segment of the list.

      I don't know how big the list is, but you can split off a random selection and do a test with a promotion or sequence that uses some of your ideas and track results vs. standard messages.

      Alternatively, you can split off a group from the main list by getting them to take some action ie. tell the list you've got a special series on Pinot Noir and anyone who wants to know about it needs to register. Then promote to this sub-list separately.

      The second method is not as clear cut because you're not testing like for like. But it's still a way to test your ideas if stakeholders are resistant to change.

      Good luck!
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      Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    Good stuff here about why direct persuasion fails.

    The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science | Mother Jones

    My experience is the phenomenon described in the article is even more pronounced in a corporate environment.
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author betweenthebars
    They do not hire you for following the previous one.
    Copywriter earns his name by his writings, not his copies. So I think that whatever you do will not a big deal and if they require explanation, then here comes money test.
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    • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
      Originally Posted by betweenthebars View Post

      They do not hire you for following the previous one.
      Copywriter earns his name by his writings, not his copies. So I think that whatever you do will not a big deal and if they require explanation, then here comes money test.
      Great angle for a movie. This fall, Warner Bros presents: "Copywriter." "He earned his name by his writings, not his copies."
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      Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
      - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    In a world where copy has slowly devolved to nothing but copied copies...

    ONE MAN stood tall...

    Earning his name...

    Not by his copies...

    But by his writing.

    He is.... COPYWRITER.

    (cut to close up of hands on keyboard)

    (VO) "Here comes money test..."
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    Brian McLeod
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewisdalton
    To be fair, that trailer is awesome. Spend a few months blasting out a manuscript and you could have a winner
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  • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
    Apart from the copywriting I think it is best to understand who also has interests in the material you are producing and whether it compliments their efforts. With a client of mine they are using various companies and individuals to try to improve business and when you have someone driving traffic to your copy but they've got different views on the individual being targeted it is easy to blame the copy ahead of the traffic.

    Same issue with split testing and so called SEO helpers blaming split tests for affecting rankings.

    Need to be aware of the conversations and desired outcomes when things are outsourced. When it is all in-house it's much easier but different departments may drive certain strategies that may not be congruent with yours.
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  • Profile picture of the author Work1099
    I'd start by getting them to grasp that the end result they want is to make more money. Then segue to how the only way to be sure that is happening is via testing. Next, just do the testing and let the results speak volumes on your behalf.

    If they are skiddish about it, start with a small test that they are comfortable with.
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