To the best copywriters on the forum

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

First of all, I want to say thank you to all of you on this forum. There is an incredible amount of start up information here for new copywriters, of which I am one.

Though I'm new to copywriting, I'm not new to writing or psychology. I've been reading and analyzing adult books since I was a kid, psychology, philosophy, etc.. I know what good writing looks like and I know that good writing depends on clear thinking.

I've got a copy of the Boron Letters, a few of the key books from the recommended reading thread and a whole lot of ambition and dedication to putting in hard work.

I'm confident I can be a really great copywriter.

I mention all this to show you that I've done my research before asking for help. I've looked for the answer to my question so as to not waste your time. Since I can't find it, however...

I'm having trouble finding clients that really need great copywriting. There are a lot of great threads about starting with newspaper ads, websites on the 7th page of google, etc.. It also appears that after getting the first initial clients, most (good) copywriters pull in work primarily from referrals.

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

So my question to those of you that are the best is this: how can I find and identify who these people/businesses are? What types of businesses are the most in need of high performance copy? What sort of businesses do you work with consistently?

Once I get in front of a business I'm confident I can sell myself to them. I just don't know who to sell to. My goal here is to use the 80/20 principle: rather than working with ten or twenty small clients, I want to work with one big client.

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small. You all are my role models, and if you take time to post any type of response it will mean a lot to me.

Sooo... you want to get around $50k for your first Copywriting job?

Why only $50k? I'm sure since you're a good writer and know psychology you're worth far more than that.

Good luck.

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BudaBrit

10 years ago

The art of identifying your target market...is quite an important one for copywriters.

No matter how good your writing basics are, if you can't identify who you should be targeting, then all that work is for nothing.

As a starting point, you need to figure out who uses/needs copy for their business. Once you find the answer(s), you can then keep digging, keep narrowing until you get a list of businesses you can send a letter to, get an ad in front of or talk to on the phone/in person.

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MRMagMark 10 years ago
Tihal,

I lurk on the boards but had to respond because quite frankly, you're headed for major frustration with your expectations.

Although you're ambitious (which isn't a bad thing), you don't have a good grasp yet on the reality of being a copywriter.

Many of the Warriors here probably looked at your post, rolled their eyes, and thought, "Good luck, Chief. After slaving away over the keyboard for years, I'm STILL looking for those type of clients."

First, I'm primarily a B2B/B2C copywriter. I've been doing this for years. Although I don't know any clients who would shell out $50K for a first-timer, I will say there are plenty of business owners who DO need quality copywriting. You have a very large percentage of businesses who are just starting to understand how to make a website generate leads for them.

If you study email marketing strategy, you can definitely make a dent in their universe.

Here are a few ideas:

1) Many Internet marketers are flush with money but they want to see some proof that your copy is going to convert. So instead of hitting up one of them with the expectation of getting $50K right out of the gate, why not be realistic and start smaller?

Offer to write an email autoresponder sequence with some strong calls to action (CTAs) and follow the stats. Depending on the industry, if you get a decent open rate, you can start showing that to prospects as proof your copy gets results.

2) Regarding who to sell to: this is key because once you decide who you're trying to reach, it will make marketing easier. The main niches for direct response copywriting are: financial, health, personal development and business opportunities.

But there are others like martial arts training, golf, collectibles, etc. Figure out what really interests you. That will help because once you decide on a niche, you're going to have to dig deep and find out everything you can about the buyers in that market as well as the products being sold. Start reading business newspapers and magazines to learn about business trends.

Look for businesses that have been in business for at least five years or more (startups usually don't have money unless their generously funded by an angel investor or group). Visit your library and ask the reference desk to help you find resources that will let you know what the annual revenue is for a business.

Go after the businesses that pull in at least $4 million a year or more because then they'll be able to afford you. Research as much as you can. In order to get the bigger clients, you need to know who they are and believe me, they're not going to be announcing themselves online. You've got to dig to find them.

3) Do you have a website yet? If not, build one. Put your copy out there for everyone to see. Monitor your analytics through Google Analytics to see what's doing well. Put everything you've got into creating a powerful Home page and then your About page (usually the two most popular pages).

If you really want to demonstrate your expertise, start a blog and update it on a regular basis (1 - 3 times a week). And to really start testing your own copy and ideas, create an opt-in bribe (reports aren't getting as much traction anymore, try an infographic or nicely designed checklist).

Create an opt-in form and then start your own value-filled newsletter. Offer value every chance you get. Once you decide the types of clients you want to reach, you'll be able to advertise that on your site. Bonus tip: Create your opt-in bribe specifically for that client. So instead of "50 Marketing Tips to Increase Your Business," it would be "50 Marketing Tips to Increase Your Real Estate Business in Texas." The more specific you can get with your offerings, the better.

About direct response...

Yes, it's lucrative. Yes, it's a rush if you write a control. But with great riches comes great risks. Over time, you'll figure out if you really want to pursue it. The competition has exploded over the past decade for DR copywriting. The introduction of video sales letters has opened up more opportunities, but still, the competition is fierce.

I just spoke on the phone yesterday with a DR financial copywriter who wanted to talk to me about transitioning to a B2B copywriter. He was a financial copywriter for four years. Here's what he told me:
- When he wrote a control, everyone wanted him
- The minute his promotion didn't do as well, no one wanted to talk to him
- He'd write a few promotions, get paid, but then would be scraping by until he could get another assignment
- There is little relationship-building with business owners, which significantly decreases the opportunity to work with them again
- He often wasn't treated with any respect because many businesses look at DR copywriters with a "churn and burn" attitude
If you're a B2B/B2C copywriter (and I count law firms, chiropractors, dentist offices, etc. as B2C), here are some benefits:
- You can build a relationship with the business owner once you show your marketing savvy, which will lead to repeat business
- Your copy isn't constantly being challenged
- There's the possibility you can get hired on a retainer basis, which means the business will pay you a monthly flat amount (between $1500 - $5000) to write a variety of projects for them. You have to figure out a fair rate for both of you and that comes in time when you know how long it takes you to complete certain projects (like a case study or email sequence).
- You are valued as a marketing expert whose sole purpose is to bring in new business
There are a ton of businesses who need copy. And many of them are open to learning the power of a good sales letter mailed to a good list with a great offer. Check out Target Marketing magazine online to stay current with the state of direct mail trends.

Finally, my favorite copywriting guru who is one of the most honest when it comes to delivering the goods about this business, Clayton Makepeace, has a brilliant blog (The Makepeace Total Package) that is still live even though he stopped updating it years ago. Here are two key posts that will be of interest to you:

Six Figures Is Chump Change (Note: this post was written in 2011 but is STILL full of gold. He speaks the truth.)
All the New, Paying Customers You Could Ever Want - For Free!

I would say that the key is to first, know basic copywriting principles inside and out. Not only read the classics on the sticky thread about copywriting, but dive into some sales books and blogs, too. You mentioned Perry Marshall, who is really smart. But try to get a handle on the sales process overall for businesses.

Second - know marketing tactics like the back of your hand.

And third - know your targeted buyer like the back of your hand.

The more you learn, the more you'll stand out as someone who can help a business owner make more money. Good luck.
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- now4dw 10 years ago
  
  @ MRMagMark What a great reply! As a writer of 40+ years experience, I admire your willingness to help this person get his feet on the ground.
  
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BrianMcLeod

10 years ago

Just when I'd mostly given up hope for this subforum...

MRMagMark drops in with one of the best posts I've read here.

Where ya been hiding, man?

Tihal, you say:

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects.

While I'm expecting you'll probably catch a lot of flak over it, my feeling is you're trying to be strategic and tactical, rather than just a delusional, entitled noob looking to skip to the head of the line.

Here's your challenge:

Ambition and creative talent are plentiful, cheap commodities. Experience and a results-based reputation are rare and valuable.

Use the former to create the latter.

You don't really hunt down $50K clients and opportunities in this business, they show up in your world of their own accord or because a trusted colleague sent them your way.

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Brian McLeod

Direct Response Copywriting

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

While I'm expecting you'll probably catch a lot of flak over it, my feeling is you're trying to be strategic and tactical, rather than just a delusional, entitled noob looking to skip to the head of the line.

It has nothing to do with the line in my case, it just seems to me like he's trying to simply STEAL $50k. He's simply not worth that, or anywhere near it. Being a good writer in other fields, as we know makes almost no difference in Copywriting, and neither does the stuff someone read in some ivory tower psychology manual.

Forget $50k, you shouldn't be charging even $1 for your first sales letters.

You should be doing it for free and building up a portfolio and testimonials. If you convince someone to pay you $200 for your very first salesletter, you're ripping them off. Plain and simple.

If you convince them to pay you $50k, then you pretty much just committed Grand Larceny. But I don't think it's going to happen. Not without a whole bunch of lies and deception from your end.

If you go to a client that has $50k to spend on a salesletter and say: "Hey man, this is actually my first Copywriting job, BUT I'm a good writer, and studied some psychology, so I'll just charge you $50k"... what do you think's going to happen?

Case in point, you won't get that much without lying through your teeth, it's that simple.

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BudaBrit

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

It has nothing to do with the line in my case, it just seems to me like he's trying to simply STEAL $50k. He's simply not worth that, or anywhere near it. Being a good writer in other fields, as we know makes almost no difference in Copywriting, and neither does the stuff someone read in some ivory tower psychology manual.

Forget $50k, you shouldn't be charging even $1 for your first sales letters.

You should be doing it for free and building up a portfolio and testimonials. If you convince someone to pay you $200 for your very first salesletter, you're ripping them off. Plain and simple.

If you convince them to pay you $50k, then you pretty much just committed Grand Larceny. But I don't think it's going to happen. Not without a whole bunch of lies and deception from your end.

If you go to a client that has $50k to spend on a salesletter and say: "Hey man, this is actually my first Copywriting job, BUT I'm a good writer, and studied some psychology, so I'll just charge you $50k"... what do you think's going to happen?

Case in point, you won't get that much without lying through your teeth, it's that simple.

I've been reading a lot of Dave Trott recently. He talks about Predatory Thinking, about getting one up on your competitors by thinking differently.

Most beginner copywriters charge nothing, $100, $200, or something small for a letter first up. Hell, look at some of the other threads to see examples.

So, by doing the same, how will the OP stand out? How will he differentiate himself from these people? Sure, he can build up a portfolio, but that's what everyone does.

The key is to do the leg work first. Find out what that company is after before hand and go in there with your idea. There are plenty of countries out there that would bite your arm off if you offered them a game changing idea for 50 grand.

Know what you want, stick to it, get out there and make it happen.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BudaBrit

I've been reading a lot of Dave Trott recently. He talks about Predatory Thinking, about getting one up on your competitors by thinking differently.

Most beginner copywriters charge nothing, $100, $200, or something small for a letter first up. Hell, look at some of the other threads to see examples.

So, by doing the same, how will the OP stand out? How will he differentiate himself from these people? Sure, he can build up a portfolio, but that's what everyone does.

The key is to do the leg work first. Find out what that company is after before hand and go in there with your idea. There are plenty of countries out there that would bite your arm off if you offered them a game changing idea for 50 grand.

Know what you want, stick to it, get out there and make it happen.

I see your point... but this is an extreme example. I don't care what he does up-front for a company, if he's totally honest with them, and tells him it's his FIRST Copywriting job, and he has no experience, he isn't going to get $50k, and he doesn't deserve it. He won't get $50k (or even close to it) without lying. Period.

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angiecolee

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

It has nothing to do with the line in my case, it just seems to me like he's trying to simply STEAL $50k. He's simply not worth that, or anywhere near it. Being a good writer in other fields, as we know makes almost no difference in Copywriting, and neither does the stuff someone read in some ivory tower psychology manual.

Forget $50k, you shouldn't be charging even $1 for your first sales letters.

You should be doing it for free and building up a portfolio and testimonials. If you convince someone to pay you $200 for your very first salesletter, you're ripping them off. Plain and simple.

If you convince them to pay you $50k, then you pretty much just committed Grand Larceny. But I don't think it's going to happen. Not without a whole bunch of lies and deception from your end.

If you go to a client that has $50k to spend on a salesletter and say: "Hey man, this is actually my first Copywriting job, BUT I'm a good writer, and studied some psychology, so I'll just charge you $50k"... what do you think's going to happen?

Case in point, you won't get that much without lying through your teeth, it's that simple.

I disagree with you pretty hardcore.There are a few industries where it's kind of expected that if you're new you're just going to work for free until you're magically educated enough to start being paid. The entertainment industry comes to mind. Art. Writing. Etc.

You know journeymen and apprentices in other fields get paid? Granted they typically work directly under someone more experienced and have direction. But there's something to be said by someone who is willing to DO the work and get things done.

Now, the OP doesn't know what he doesn't know. But one post hardly tells you the worth of his work. Yes, there's some ambitious newbness going on, but that's no reason to castigate and say if he did land it he's stealing.

There's a reason why we typically use the word investing instead of the word buying. There may just be someone out there who's willing to invest that. Likelihood? Not high. But not altogether impossible either.

The right newb with the right skill set with the right ambition at the right time might get pretty well paid. And if they take that money and invest it in a mentor who can help them tighten up, well.... that's a pretty smart newb who won't be a newb for much longer.

TL;DR version - I'm pretty ******* tired of hearing that to get your start you have to work for free. Yes, copywriting is a skill. But ya know...I got paid to learn how to be a firefighter once upon a time.

Don't tell me a newb copywriter is the danger equivalent for business that a rookie firefighter is to people who need help. For crying out loud, they trusted ME of all people with hydraulic cutters and the Jaws of Life. THAT, my friend, is dangerous.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

I disagree with you pretty hardcore.There are a few industries where it's kind of expected that if you're new you're just going to work for free until you're magically educated enough to start being paid. The entertainment industry comes to mind. Art. Writing. Etc.

You know journeymen and apprentices in other fields get paid? Granted they typically work directly under someone more experienced and have direction. But there's something to be said by someone who is willing to DO the work and get things done.

Now, the OP doesn't know what he doesn't know. But one post hardly tells you the worth of his work. Yes, there's some ambitious newbness going on, but that's no reason to castigate and say if he did land it he's stealing.

There's a reason why we typically use the word investing instead of the word buying. There may just be someone out there who's willing to invest that. Likelihood? Not high. But not altogether impossible either.

Edit: Oh and it's stealing because there's no way a marketer or company's going to pay him $50k if he's totally honest, that was my point. I don't really think charging $200 is stealing, but I don't think people are worth that much til they've written maybe 5-10 salesletters, personally.

The right newb with the right skill set with the right ambition at the right time might get pretty well paid. And if they take that money and invest it in a mentor who can help them tighten up, well.... that's a pretty smart newb who won't be a newb for much longer.

TL;DR version - I'm pretty ******* tired of hearing that to get your start you have to work for free. Yes, copywriting is a skill. But ya know...I got paid to learn how to be a firefighter once upon a time.

Don't tell me a newb copywriter is the danger equivalent for business that a rookie firefighter is to people who need help. For crying out loud, they trusted ME of all people with hydraulic cutters and the Jaws of Life. THAT, my friend, is dangerous.

OK, perhaps you don't need to work for free, but it certainly doesn't hurt when you're starting out.

And the main point I was trying to make was that his idea of charging $50k for his first Copywriting job is frigan bogus... that's what we should focus on here... instead of finding ways to disagree with me, which is a bit overplayed at this point.

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angiecolee

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

OK, perhaps you don't need to work for free, but it certainly doesn't hurt when you're starting out.

And the main point I was trying to make was that his idea of charging $50k for his first Copywriting job is frigan bogus... that's what we should focus on here... instead of finding ways to disagree with me, which is a bit overplayed at this point.

Cam, I wasn't disagreeing with you to be contrarian. I was disagreeing with you to bring up a valid point. So many people often tell newbs the only way to get a foot hold is to start for free, build a portfolio.

Yet this week alone, several newbs have been skewered for offering that very thing. They don't stand out. They're not different. There's no value to the potential client.

I don't think we can ever get out of this undervaluing of our profession on the whole if instead of teaching up and coming writers how to build VALUE and SET EXPECTATIONS, we tell them to whore themselves out. Though I do realize Carlton's shameless whore phase has done wonders for many people.

With this much competition entering our arena, I think it's time to focus more on value building and less on price.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small.

You're too bold. You need to start small. Who do you think you are coming on here and asking our help to get a $50k gig straight off the bat? Not gonna happen. You gotta pay your dues. "Tell him he's dreaming" (Google "The Castle" - great little Aussie movie - and you'll get it.)

That's what most people will tell you as they lift their leg on your ambition. Ignore them and do it anyway.

I started with J. Walter Thompson Advertising at 16 years 9 months. Just by having the balls to pitch them (and a modicom of latent undeveloped talent). I was still in high school.

At the time it was the biggest and most prestigious agency in the world. I think I grew a foot that day as I announced to my family and other Doubting Thomases - "I just scored a gig at J.W.T."

Go ahead. Feel the fear and do it anyway. What have you got to lose?

Tell 'im 'e's dreamin' - YouTube

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

Go ahead. Feel the fear and do it anyway. What have you got to lose?

Just a little dignity for lying I expect...

So, @ the people who're saying, "Yea, go for it man. Be bold and charge $50k for your very first Copywriting job, that's totally cool." Let me ask you this:

When he's applying to jobs, do you think he should tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? As in "THIS IS MY FIRST COPYWRITING JOB, I have some textbook psych knowledge and basic writing skills, please pay me $50k"..

Does anyone honestly think someone will give him $50k if he's that honest... or are we advising him to lie?

Which is it?

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Chriswrighto

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Just a little dignity for lying I expect...

So, @ the people who're saying, "Yea, go for it man. Be bold and charge $50k for your very first Copywriting job, that's totally cool." Let me ask you this:

When he's applying to jobs, do you think he should tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? As in "THIS IS MY FIRST COPYWRITING JOB, I have some textbook psych knowledge and basic writing skills, please pay me $50k"..

Does anyone honestly think someone will give him $50k if he's that honest... or are we advising him lie?

Which is it?

No one is explicitly saying "go for $50k."

People are saying "you don't need to work for free."

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angiecolee 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Chriswrighto

No one is explicitly saying "go for $50k."

People are saying "you don't need to work for free."

^ This.

Although I will say this: it takes about the same amount of effort to go after a $5K client as a $50K client. You have to be prepared for both pitches. You have to know how to provide value. One's much more profitable.

I'm not saying someone fresh-faced with no experience is likely to get $50K off the bat. In fact, I believe I said it's highly unlikely in a previous post. Impossible? Meh, crazy things can and do happen. There are lots of crazy people out there and some of them have tons of cash.

Some people like investing in gutsiness. Lord knows there are a few people here who have helped me along the way simply because I had the courage to ask for it. They've put their reputations on the line for me when they didn't owe me a damn thing, and that's worth far more than $50K.

All I'm saying is there's something to be said for a little education, a lot of gumption, and the ability to be taught. Those guys are diamonds in the rough, and there are smart business people who know this.
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Cam Connor 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Chriswrighto

No one is explicitly saying "go for $50k."

People are saying "you don't need to work for free."

Hey Chris, you know what I just realized? I never proof-read my posts.

Oh, by the way, people usually fry newbs for coming in here and saying things like this. It's fine if we're taking a day off though, I guess the OP must've caught a break.

Good stuff mate.
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- ewenmack 10 years ago
  
  Tihal, there are people, lot's of them, who will invest $50 k on their marketing.
  
  You just need a bold idea that's got some validation.
  
  Optimizing talk won't get you there.
  
  We don't know what you have to get the interest of the $50k check writers,
  what I do know, you have to come up with a BIG compelling idea.
  
  Getting that in front of the right people is the easy part.
  
  The world needs and wants more of them,
  bring yours out.
  
  Best,
  Doctor E. Vile
  
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MatthewRHallEsq

10 years ago

Why the hell does it have to be a binary?

Present some samples, describe results carefully based on some case studies, and pitch.

One of my best friends works for one of the big two cereal companies in a very high-up job. As he frequently tells me, "If you can improve something by even a quarter of a percent, you're saving a ton of money for the company. $10,000 line items don't even matter at this scale."

(I'd guess the same is true for $50,000 line items, too.)

So if this guy works with companies that sell $50,000 products and he increases sales by two with his new copy, he's been a good investment.

Would ANYONE get work at first without focusing on what they can do versus what they've actually done?

I don't think this guy needs to lie in his pitch. Yeah, the stakes are higher for him than they were for us when we started, but it's the same principle.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 10 years ago

All this crap about "lying" and "psychology" has got nothing to do with it.

I don't think anyone's talked about "getting a slice of the action".

If the kid has a great concept, some half-decent copy, the right product, the right target audience, the right media buy etc...and a client willing to let him have a shot...he could charge a grand or something up front...and get a healthy percentage of the gross. That's how he's going to make $50k on his first copy gig.

So he's not "charging $50k for his first copy job". He's making his client/JV/partner a lot of money. Enough to warrant a $50k whack to him.

Seems to me some of you could benefit from Googling "Limited Belief Systems".

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right."

- Henry Ford

Luckily, there are a few steps you can follow in order to make the shift to new, more empowering beliefs.

Stop identifying with the belief. Most beliefs are so difficult to change because we identify with them. They seem to be ingrained as a part of who we are. And because we identify with them, we allow ourselves to be defined by them. If you think you're not creative, you'll see yourself as someone who just wasn't born with that ability. If you think you're bad with getting things to work, you might think you're just not a mechanical person. It's easy to get caught up in allowing our beliefs to define us, but they don't have to. So the first step is to stop identifying with or defining yourself based on what you believe.
Kill your conclusions. Whatever you think you know to be certain is probably a lot more flexible than you think. What you think to be required is certain to be much more negotiable. Question all of the conclusions you have about what you think to be true, fixed or possible.
Test your assumptions. Without pushing the boundary and testing your assumptions, it's impossible to move past your limiting beliefs. You need to do something to break the pattern of your limiting belief. Questioning is the first step, but if you only do that, the possibilities of moving to a more empowering perspective stay in your head. Some type of action must be taken that puts your conclusions to the test. Just make sure that you're not staying in the limited head-space that leads you to reinforce what you already hold to be true. Suspend your judgment and take some kind of action to test your assumptions.

It might seem simple, but these are the basic steps to moving past any limiting belief.

How to Overcome Limiting Beliefs

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Alex Cohen

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small. You all are my role models, and if you take time to post any type of response it will mean a lot to me.

I like your "go big or go home" attitude. It's refreshing to see someone who's not burdened down with limiting beliefs in the area of finances.

My suggestion: Find an A-list copywriter who shares your mindset and is willing to mentor you. As a rule, A-list copywriters don't hang out here in the copywriting forum, so you'll need to look elsewhere.

The first person who comes to mind is Doug D'Anna. Touch bases with him and see if you and him are compatible...

Doug D'Anna's A-List: One-on-One Coaching

Alex

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

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Chriswrighto

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

I'm wondering... with all the admiration here for the OP, is anyone going to put their money with their mouth is actually give this guy $50k for his first Copywriting job? Certainly someone here must have something they're launching at some point in the near future. Mal, Angie, Alex?

Who's actually going to shell out $50k to this guy so he can write you an epic first sales letter?

Any takers? No?

What's your problem? Why is it a bad thing that people are giving this guy encouragement?

Read back over the comments. No one is saying Tihal will land $50k as a first job, but there's a lot of solid advice there.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Chriswrighto

What's your problem?

Whoa, take it easy my baby-faced brotha, no need to get confrontational here... yes, encouragement, it's great.

And Tihal, thanks for the clarification on that, it seems your intentions are more noble than I'd first interpreted from reading the OP.

-Cam

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Chriswrighto

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Whoa, take it easy my baby-faced brotha, no need to get confrontational here... yes, encouragement, it's great.

And Tihal, thanks for the clarification on that, it seems your intentions are more noble than I'd first interpreted from reading the OP.

-Cam

Not confrontational, a genuine question.

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Cam Connor 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Chriswrighto

Not confrontational, a genuine question.

A presupposition my dear boy, not acceptable within the context of humane social interactions.
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- Chriswrighto 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Cam Connor
  
  A presupposition my dear boy, not acceptable within the context of humane social interactions.
  
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  Cam Connor 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Chriswrighto
  
  [Image from
  
  Lol, nevermind what I wrote here before, that was funny.
  
  Good stuff.
  
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Tihal

10 years ago

Awesome. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank you all, this is really good info.

MRMagMark, your post clearly took time to write and contains a lot of specific, actionable items and links. I plan to put your advice into action right away.

Alex Cohen, thank you very much for your encouragement and reference. I will definitely be contacting Doug D'Anna.

For clarification, I am not looking to get paid $50,000 for a single sales letter. It may be a $50,000 contract to write a full ad campaign or an email newsletter campaign. The Copy Nazi got it on this point. I'm looking to provide $50,000 worth of VALUE to one client. I recognize this (usually) requires more than one sales letter.

HOWEVER...maybe I shouldn't have put down $50,000 as the price point. It seems to have distracted a bit from my actual question, which is NOT "Can I charge $50,000 on my first gig?" but rather "Which types of businesses utilize copy the most? Who is the optimal client to pitch to if I want to jump straight to making money that will inspire me to write incredible copy?"

I recognize that there are many, many different types of copy. Because of this, there may not be one specific type of client that is best to pursue over others.

I ask because I am unfamiliar with the copywriting MARKET, and you guys have at least some experience in the market.

Obviously I did not word my question well the first time, so I apologize for the confusion.

It may be that I am asking the wrong question, still don't know enough to communicate my question well, or the question is just too vague. Either way, I'm learning.

That being said, the information you all have given is VERY helpful, very encouraging and much appreciated. Thank you all again.

[ 4 ] Thanks
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max5ty 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

Who is the optimal client to pitch to if I want to jump straight to making money that will inspire me to write incredible copy?"

Quick answer to your question...yourself.

When you can do for yourself what you say you can do for others, you won't have any problem getting clients.

If you think you're good selling for others, surely you can first be good at selling a product of your own. There's millions of products out there. Adopt one and get to work getting wealthy. I've written posts about this before.

Nothing builds a portfolio better than someone that practices what they preach.

You're wanting to practice with other peoples money. You want them to take a chance on you. Take a chance on yourself first. Instead of telling how good you are, show how good you are with your own real life results.

If you're as good as you think, selling your own product first will not only make you wealthy but will build a portfolio that sells itself.

Wish you the best in your new career.
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angiecolee

10 years ago

Cam, with clarification I think you're interpreting it in the spirit many of us read it in earlier.

I'm sure if I broke it down word for word, I could figure out where it resonated with me. I'm not going to though. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Point is the kid struck a chord with many of us where so many hit sour notes, break strings, or screech like cats in heat. That spirit was music to my... eyeballs. I guess. I was reading, after all.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

Cam, with clarification I think you're interpreting it in the spirit many of us read it in earlier.

I'm sure if I broke it down word for word, I could figure out where it resonated with me. I'm not going to though. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Point is the kid struck a chord with many of us where so many hit sour notes, break strings, or screech like cats in heat. That spirit was music to my... eyeballs. I guess. I was reading, after all.

Yea, I guess people got out of it something different than I did, so I think we understand each other now.

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splitTest

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

First of all, I want to say thank you to all of you on this forum. There is an incredible amount of start up information here for new copywriters, of which I am one.

Though I'm new to copywriting, I'm not new to writing or psychology. I've been reading and analyzing adult books since I was a kid, psychology, philosophy, etc.. I know what good writing looks like and I know that good writing depends on clear thinking.

I've got a copy of the Boron Letters, a few of the key books from the recommended reading thread and a whole lot of ambition and dedication to putting in hard work.

I'm confident I can be a really great copywriter.

I mention all this to show you that I've done my research before asking for help. I've looked for the answer to my question so as to not waste your time. Since I can't find it, however...

I'm having trouble finding clients that really need great copywriting. There are a lot of great threads about starting with newspaper ads, websites on the 7th page of google, etc.. It also appears that after getting the first initial clients, most (good) copywriters pull in work primarily from referrals.

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

So my question to those of you that are the best is this: how can I find and identify who these people/businesses are? What types of businesses are the most in need of high performance copy? What sort of businesses do you work with consistently?

Once I get in front of a business I'm confident I can sell myself to them. I just don't know who to sell to. My goal here is to use the 80/20 principle: rather than working with ten or twenty small clients, I want to work with one big client.

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small. You all are my role models, and if you take time to post any type of response it will mean a lot to me.

First thought -- so you're worth $50,000 projects, yet your best effort in pinning down your market is posting here? Good luck in marketing for clients!

Second thought -- this guy is going to get a lot spammy PMs. If you're for real, yes you can get $50,000 clients. Just buy my fool-proof system -- it comes with a free bridge in Brooklyn.

On the other hand, being blissfully oblivious of limitations is an asset in a way...

If only the noobs would update us once in a while ... Would be a learning experience for us all...

Thanks
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Alex Cohen

10 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

If only the noobs would update us once in a while ... Would be a learning experience for us all...

What is it that we would learn?

Alex

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splitTest

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

What is it that we would learn?

Alex

We'd learn if they ever follow the advice... I haven't been on this board that long, but I observe that generally the noobs ask for advice, get it, then just fade away...

...And we (& more importantly, other noobs) would learn if the advice is fruitful. Can you imagine how inspiring it would be if a noob reported that he had followed the advice and landed a $50,000 assignment? (... or even a $5000 assignment?) What could teach better than that?

We'd also learn if the world is as hungry for new copywriters as everyone is selling (ahem -- excuse me -- saying

) ...

Thanks
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Alex Cohen

10 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

We'd learn if they ever follow the advice... I haven't been on this board that long, but I observe that generally the noobs ask for advice, get it, then just fade away...

Anyone who understands human nature already knows the answer. Only a small percentage do.

...And we (& more importantly, other noobs) would learn if the advice is fruitful. Can you imagine how inspiring it would be if a noob reported that he had followed the advice and landed a $50,000 assignment? (... or even a $5000 assignment?) What could teach better than that?

Books, courses, one-on-one coaches.

We'd also learn if the world is as hungry for new copywriters as everyone is selling (ahem -- excuse me -- saying

) ...

Everyone?? Precision with words is important in copywriting.

Are you a copywriter?

Alex

Thanks
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splitTest 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Everyone??

Yep -- all 7 billion.

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Are you a copywriter?

Don't I have to send you a thousand dollars first?

Anyway, that's immaterial. More on point -- wouldn't it be interesting if we heard more about how noobs are applying the stuff they learn here and how it's working for them (or not)?

Not for you? That's fine. I think it would be.
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- Alex Cohen 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alex Cohen
  
  Are you a copywriter?
  
  Originally Posted by splitTest
  
  Don't I have to send you a thousand dollars first?
  
  Anyway, that's immaterial.
  
  Didn't think so.
  
  Alex
  
  Thanks
  
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angiecolee

10 years ago

And sometimes newbs do come back with lessons learned.

They are called experienced copywriters.

Signed,
A former newb the new newbs love to argue with

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ryanmcgee

10 years ago

If the kid has a great concept, some half-decent copy, the right product, the right target audience, the right media buy etc...and a client willing to let him have a shot...he could charge a grand or something up front...and get a healthy percentage of the gross. That's how he's going to make $50k on his first copy gig.

Indeed. The process could be:

1. Ask a client for a 1% royalty from your copy and ideas...

2.Generate $5 million in new sales for the client...

3. Collect your $50,000.

Now you know what types of clients to target. Those that pay royalities (or are willing to), for example.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ryanmcgee

Indeed. The process could be:

1. Ask a client for a 1% royalty from your copy and ideas...

2.Generate $5 million in new sales for the client...

3. Collect your $50,000.

Now you know what types of clients to target. Those that pay royalities (or are willing to), for example.

What do you use to track profits?

Thanks
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MikeHumphreys

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

What do you use to track profits?

He didn't say royalties from profits. Expenses can be inflated or deflated by an unethical client very easily.

The rule of thumb I use is a project fee plus a percentage of gross sales. Many of the major mailers use a project fee plus net sales (refunded are factored in) instead of gross sales to figure out a copywriter's royalties.

Keep in mind, better quality clients aren't looking at a copywriter as a one-time transaction. They're looking at them as someone who can help them grow their business over months and even years. The last thing they want to do is anger their new rain-maker and have them go to their competition instead.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

He didn't say royalties from profits. Expenses can be inflated or deflated by an unethical client very easily.

The rule of thumb I use is a project fee plus a percentage of gross sales. Many of the major mailers use a project fee plus net sales (refunded are factored in) instead of gross sales to figure out a copywriter's royalties.

Keep in mind, better quality clients aren't looking at a copywriter as a one-time transaction. They're looking at them as someone who can help them grow their business over months and even years. The last thing they want to do is anger their new rain-maker and have them go to their competition instead.

OK, gross profits, not net...

Still, how do you track 'em?

Thanks
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MikeHumphreys

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

OK, gross profits, not net...

Still, how do you track 'em?

If it's a deal set-up through ClickBank, JVZoo, or Warrior Plus, then there's a revenue split set-up between my client and me. Those platforms do the revenue split automatically.

If it's a deal set-up with a major mailer, then they use the traditional accounting methods to calculate sales.

In all cases, there's a written contract signed by both parties.

Is there a chance that the client reneges or under-reports sales?

It depends on the client.

But my experience is 95+ percent of the clients I've ever done royalty-related work for... they honor their end of the deal because they want to continue to get my help growing their business.

Like marriage, they know that cheating is pretty much a deal-breaker that they won't be able to talk their way out of.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

If it's a deal set-up through ClickBank, JVZoo, or Warrior Plus, then there's a revenue split set-up between my client and me. Those platforms do the revenue split automatically.

If it's a deal set-up with a major mailer, then they use the traditional accounting methods to calculate sales.

In all cases, there's a written contract signed by both parties.

Is there a chance that the client reneges or under-reports sales?

It depends on the client.

But my experience is 95+ percent of the clients I've ever done royalty-related work for... they honor their end of the deal because they want to continue to get my help growing their business.

Like marriage, they know that cheating is pretty much a deal-breaker that they won't be able to talk their way out of.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Yea, good stuff.

Thanks

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gjabiz

10 years ago

or may not.

Originally Posted by ryanmcgee

Indeed. The process could be:

1. Ask a client for a 1% royalty from your copy and ideas...

2.Generate $5 million in new sales for the client...

3. Collect your $50,000.

Now you know what types of clients to target. Those that pay royalties (or are willing to), for example.

My experience has been, (and Ryan let us know if this is still true today)...

the more COMPLETE and finished the idea or product is, the better the chances of getting heard.

So, you get a list of companies which pay royalties, which has been posted here, use the search...and many of those work with AWAI.

Find out and buy their products, get on their lists, see what they are currently marketing.

Example, some financial companies, selling Wall St. type info may have a report on gold, they have a subscriber list of 50,000.

You can create a product, say, THE SELL YOUR GOLD NOW report.

You need to fully flesh out your product, better yet, have it done.

Write a promotion in the style they use, show back end opportunities,

THEN approach the company. A finished and complete product with a "ready to send" promotion might get you in the door.

This takes a lot of time, but .if you do your research, write the copy first, create the product...who knows? It has worked in the past, which is why I asked Ryan, because he is tuned into what is happening now, maybe these royalty paying companies do't want anything new to add to their product line.

Ryan??

gjabiz

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MikeHumphreys

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

So my question to those of you that are the best is this: how can I find and identify who these people/businesses are? What types of businesses are the most in need of high performance copy? What sort of businesses do you work with consistently?

Once I get in front of a business I'm confident I can sell myself to them. I just don't know who to sell to. My goal here is to use the 80/20 principle: rather than working with ten or twenty small clients, I want to work with one big client.

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small. You all are my role models, and if you take time to post any type of response it will mean a lot to me.

On one hand, it's good that you're setting a goal on how much money you'd like to make your clients. On the other, it's a bit limiting.

For some clients, $50K in profits would be life-changing. For others, it would be a disappointing campaign.

So my advice would be to focus on delivering maximum ROI for your clients. Because the next marketing piece you write may deliver multiples of your "$50K in profit" goal for your client. And odds are, your client will be extremely appreciative.

Best of luck,

Mike

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sethczerepak

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

First of all, I want to say thank you to all of you on this forum. There is an incredible amount of start up information here for new copywriters, of which I am one.

Though I'm new to copywriting, I'm not new to writing or psychology. I've been reading and analyzing adult books since I was a kid, psychology, philosophy, etc.. I know what good writing looks like and I know that good writing depends on clear thinking.

I've got a copy of the Boron Letters, a few of the key books from the recommended reading thread and a whole lot of ambition and dedication to putting in hard work.

I'm confident I can be a really great copywriter.

I mention all this to show you that I've done my research before asking for help. I've looked for the answer to my question so as to not waste your time. Since I can't find it, however...

I'm having trouble finding clients that really need great copywriting. There are a lot of great threads about starting with newspaper ads, websites on the 7th page of google, etc.. It also appears that after getting the first initial clients, most (good) copywriters pull in work primarily from referrals.

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

So my question to those of you that are the best is this: how can I find and identify who these people/businesses are? What types of businesses are the most in need of high performance copy? What sort of businesses do you work with consistently?

Once I get in front of a business I'm confident I can sell myself to them. I just don't know who to sell to. My goal here is to use the 80/20 principle: rather than working with ten or twenty small clients, I want to work with one big client.

Any information you can provide will be welcome, even if it's only to say I'm too bold, and I need to start small. You all are my role models, and if you take time to post any type of response it will mean a lot to me.

Too bold? No. I mean, nothing is impossible.

But, this statement...

Originally Posted by Tihal

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

...is your first mistake - and a damn common one among newbies looking to FIND "high-paying clients" - as if identifying such clients and finding them is all there is to it. It isn't about finding the right kind of clients, it's about BECOMING a copywriter who EARNS those rates by getting results.

HUGE difference. The first mindset is entitlement based, the second is contribution based. If I were you, I'd reasonably ask myself what you can do for a client that would make them feel okay about stroking a check big enough to buy a new corvette.

...AND, while you're at it, ask yourself why they'd put YOUR name on that check when they could afford to hire someone with a proven track record and decades of experience.

To bold? No, but you better stop thinking about what you want to get from the client and start thinking about what kind of value you're going to deliver.

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ryanmcgee

10 years ago

Gordon:

Agreed. I would say the more you can show your Big Idea for the client -- the better chance you'll get of the client being interested in working with you and your idea.

This can be a complete package. But it could also be just the "lead" ...the headline, subhead, and first 3-5 pages of a possible promotion.

Interesting enough, there was a fellow from the UK who did exactly the plan you outlined above. He created a Big Idea and complete promotion...before he had a client (or even a product).

He then "shopped" his promotion to different publishers. Eventually, he found a division at a publishing company that was willing to run his promotion in return for giving him a royalty. The publisher then created the actual product to fulfill the promotion...

This thing is, this publisher had access to a HUGE list. The end result was a package that generated $20+ million, one of the biggest back-end offers in the history of the publisher. I don't know specifics, but I'm guessing the copywriter made out pretty decent.

The key is starting with an idea first ... then approach clients and "sell" them on using it for a royalty. As I said above, if it's a $5 million idea, you should be able to get $50,000 for it... even if you have zero experience.

Of course, the "trick" in this strategy is finding that $5 million idea!

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SeoKungFu

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Tihal

I want to go straight to the clients that need $50,000 projects. I don't know how to identify who those people or businesses are though.

You will get there after a [huge] bunch of $20-100 articles; now you know and you are welcometh

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angiecolee 10 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoKungFu

You will get there after a [huge] bunch of $20-100 articles; now you know and you are welcometh

No. Just... No.
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Alexa Smith Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoKungFu

You will get there after a [huge] bunch of $20-100 articles; now you know and you are welcometh

What on Earth are you talking about? Have you confused copywriting with content-writing, perhaps?

.
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- angiecolee 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith
  
  What on Earth are you talking about? Have you confused copywriting with content-writing, perhaps?
  
  .
  
  Meh. Some people prefer to work harder, not smarter.
  
  More money for less busy work, says me.
  
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  Cam Connor 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by angiecolee
  
  Meh. Some people prefer to work harder, not smarter.
  
  More money for less busy work, says me.
  
  I think that be a good mantra, I agree.
  
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