Gary Bencivenga --- I'm not impressed!

62 replies
That's a borderline sacrilegious headline...I know.

But I've been pouring over the swipes of various legendary direct-response copywriters, and the greatness is practically always justified.

But Gary's stuff just doesn't impress me. From a writing perspective, his pieces are long-winded, and don't flow particularly well. And frankly, the salesmanship is not all that.

His "olive oil" sales page, for example, which was mentioned in another thread...The offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation.

No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.

Maybe the guy wrote some great stuff that I've missed, but I can't see what the fuss is all about honestly.
#bencivenga #gary #impressed
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    There are lots of legendary greats with whom I don't resonate. Doesn't make the work or the word choices or the research any less relevant a lesson.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mario Castelli
    Fortunately for him, Gary's job isn't to impress anyone.

    He (self-admittedly) isn't the most talented "writer."

    The reason he's considered one of the best is because of the results he delivered.

    Opinions aside, his copy consistently out-pulled other top writers 9 times out of 10...

    And the fact that he's done it without "impressive" writing is even MORE reason to study him, IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Microniche
      Originally Posted by Mario Castelli View Post

      Fortunately for him, Gary's job isn't to impress anyone.

      He (self-admittedly) isn't the most talented "writer."

      The reason he's considered one of the best is because of the results he delivered.

      Opinions aside, his copy consistently out-pulled other top writers 9 times out of 10...

      And the fact that he's done it without "impressive" writing is even MORE reason to study him, IMO.
      If I gave my clients products away like that olive oil offer, I'm pretty sure I'd be beating 9/10 controls too (at least ones actually asking prospects to do something).

      Snide quips aside, I can't argue with the guys results. But I do find his pieces lack "flow" and tend to ramble on a lot...to the point where I get lost reading them.

      If that happens to me, I can't imagine his average prospect is fairing much better. But maybe they skip right down to his charitable offers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mario Castelli
        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

        If I gave my clients products away like that olive oil offer, I'm pretty sure I'd be beating 9/10 controls too (at least ones actually asking prospects to do something).

        Snide quips aside, I can't argue with the guys results. But I do find his pieces lack "flow" and tend to ramble on a lot...to the point where I get lost reading them.

        If that happens to me, I can't imagine his average prospect is fairing much better. But maybe they skip right down to his charitable offers.
        But you're not the market. So assuming people who ARE the market have the same reaction you do is a big mistake. Especially since we KNOW he's getting results. That's not opinion.

        And since he's getting results in spite of "rambling" copy... then yes, his offers are probably worth studying.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    He's not giving away a bottle of olive oil...

    He's giving away a bottle of HIS olive oil. It's his business...his money.

    Think he'd be giving it away if he wasn't making money?
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    • Profile picture of the author Microniche
      Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

      He's not giving away a bottle of olive oil...

      He's giving away a bottle of HIS olive oil. It's his business...his money.

      Think he'd be giving it away if he wasn't making money?
      No, that was one of Gary's clients, not his personal business.

      I think giving away samples is a great way to build brand awareness and a good long-run play for getting clients.

      But still, if I'm a business, I don't need to pay $xx,000 (plus royalties) to Gary Benicivenga to figure that out.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

        No, that was one of Gary's clients, not his personal business.

        I think giving away samples is a great way to build brand awareness and a good long-run play for getting clients.

        But still, if I'm a business, I don't need to pay ,000 (plus royalties) to Gary Benicivenga to figure that out.
        Pretty sure it's his business:

        Fresh Pressed Olive Oil, LLC in Garden City NY - Company Profile

        How to scale my business when I
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        • Profile picture of the author Microniche
          Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

          I stand corrected. But my opinion of the copy still stands.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
            Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

            I stand corrected. But my opinion of the copy still stands.
            What is your opinion?

            That anybody could sell an olive oil of the month club by giving away a free bottle?

            Or that the copy doesn't work but he keeps giving the olive oil away hoping to make it up in volume?

            It's a great offer. And there's no shame in leading with a great offer if it gets the job done.

            I get it if his copy doesn't resonate with you...but so what?
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        First, I'm not a copywriter, I'm a marketer who occasionally does copywriting.

        I know a baker, who was giving away pastries, really good pastries. He did not need a copywriter or marketer to figure that out.

        However, with me, not Bengivenga, helping, he not only gave away more pastries but more of the people he gave away the pastries to bought on the spot and more of them came back to buy. Two years later, some are still coming.

        I got him to change where he advertised his freebies, how he did it (words used + images), I made him little square pieces of yellow paper to give away to people (get X% off your next purchase kind of thing); and little white squares of paper to give to the people who brought in the yellow ones (with a buy 5, get 1 free; offer expires in 3 days kind of thing), and blue square pieces of paper to give to the ones who brought in the white papers).

        I got him to get his people to ask people where they heard of the freebies and to count the pieces of paper and to ask for an email address of everyone (to tell you of our next promotion).

        I'm not Bencivenga so I didn't make him millions, however, as per him, my way brought 3-5 times more people in and 3.8 times more revenue than his.

        He liked what I did mostly, though, because it brought in people in the middle of the week, when on his own, his store was mostly empty.

        My point, I'm assuming Bencivenga's knowledge of copywriting exceeded that of the business owners he was working with even though his marketing ideas might not have been superior.
        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

        No, that was one of Gary's clients, not his personal business.

        I think giving away samples is a great way to build brand awareness and a good long-run play for getting clients.

        But still, if I'm a business, I don't need to pay ,000 (plus royalties) to Gary Benicivenga to figure that out.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mikesweeney
          Steven A Smith's thoughts on this thread...

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  • Profile picture of the author ejm7788
    I sort of agree. I think his ads appeal more to the sophisticated, older crowd.

    Obviously he's a master at what he does and his 100 seminar and his Bullets newsletters taught me a great deal.

    Personally Gary Halbert's and John Carlton's styles tend to jump off the page more to me and their swipes will appeal more to the younger crowd and translate better online.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

    That's a borderline sacrilegious headline...I know.

    But I've been pouring over the swipes of various legendary direct-response copywriters, and the greatness is practically always justified.

    But Gary's stuff just doesn't impress me. From a writing perspective, his pieces are long-winded, and don't flow particularly well. And frankly, the salesmanship is not all that.
    Odds are, you're not the target market it was written for.

    His "olive oil" sales page, for example, which was mentioned in another thread...The offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation.

    No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.
    Seeing that it's for his own business, I'm sure he would have rewritten it if it wasn't converting well.

    Maybe the guy wrote some great stuff that I've missed, but I can't see what the fuss is all about honestly.
    Sure lots of stuff. Google "Lies, Lies, Lies". It was an unbeaten control for over 12 years.

    Check some of the past threads in this forum. Some of his pieces have been highlighted here before.
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  • Profile picture of the author dmaster555
    His copy lacks hype that you may be used to seeing and it may come across as "boring" or longwinded, but not to the target market he is writing for.

    Are you passionate about olive oil? Probably not. But someone out there who is probably read every word on that sales page.

    Break down the ad and find the usual elements. Examine his word choices how he uses authority, story, proof, exclusivity, etc throughout the copy. You will have many "aha" moments.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

    But Gary's stuff just doesn't impress me. From a writing perspective, his pieces are long-winded, and don't flow particularly well. And frankly, the salesmanship is not all that.

    His "olive oil" sales page, for example, which was mentioned in another thread...The offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation.

    No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.
    Sometimes the "long-windedness" is necessary to set up a sales point. For example, olive oil lovers might not appreciate the fact that this product arrives within six months of pressing without being adequately schooled as to why freshness is so important -- which takes a couple paragraphs.

    And they won't be riled about "counterfeit" oil without a few paragraphs of back story. If the "scandal" was common knowledge, maybe the expository paragraphs wouldn't be as necessary.

    It's just another example of the fact that the length of a piece is often dictated by your audience's level of awareness...

    In fact, the first part of the pitch reads just like an informative article -- an "advertorial"...

    https://www.freshpressedoliveoil.com...d_olive_oil/dl

    It's only when you click for your free bottle that you get a real sales pitch...

    https://www.freshpressedoliveoil.com...ssed_olive_oil

    ...And it's for more than a free sample -- "You will automatically be enrolled as a member" (paying $124 per quarter for a bottle a month 'til you cancel)...

    I don't know much about his list, but I think that pitch is pretty well done. The "advertorial" is engaging, and the letter is a good sell for a primed audience...
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    • Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

      That's a borderline sacrilegious headline...I know.

      But I've been pouring over the swipes of various legendary direct-response copywriters, and the greatness is practically always justified.

      But Gary's stuff just doesn't impress me. From a writing perspective, his pieces are long-winded, and don't flow particularly well. And frankly, the salesmanship is not all that.

      His "olive oil" sales page, for example, which was mentioned in another thread...The offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation.

      No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.

      Maybe the guy wrote some great stuff that I've missed, but I can't see what the fuss is all about honestly.

      Anything that makes tons of money impresses me. I don't care if its boring, or not flashy. Its not that it is impressive, its more about the results and money. His skill is where he is able to coincide with the prospects reality. That is the skill you should be looking for.


      His salesmanship may not be impressive because it is levels above most people. And hard to grasp with the average mind.


      If you want to be a copywriter, you have to be able to match your prospects reality, and not write "What you think is impressive".

      "offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation....it's not like he was asking for anything in return."


      That is selling without selling. There is no pressure, just giving value. When you are selling something, you have to be aware of the prospects pressure threshold. If you put a little to much pressure on the prospect, then the whole deal is off, even though they are standing right in front of you or still reading. They may have made up their mind about another product.


      Yeah they are probably still reading, but have it in there mind that they are going to have to think about it before paying for a bottle up front. So they click off and wait till they get paid next week. Or the prospect is thinking of a polite way to say "shut up and get out of my face so I know you wont try and ask me why I don't want your service"


      He is selling a bottle of olive oil. People have to think long and hard before purchasing something like that. That is challenging. Olive oil is located at your nearest grocery store....Try and grasp that...


      There is a difference between copy that closes the same day and closes a month from now if they are lucky and still remember.


      You have to be super sensitive about taking pressure away from the selling process and put more focus on selling without selling and adding value.


      Other than that, welcome to the copywriting forums. You still have a lot to learn. If you are serious about doing this, I suggest actually studying that sales letter until you find sales tactics.


      Words of wisdom that you might hold onto. Anything that you think is boring, that's exactly what you should be studying. Anything you don't get is what you should "get".


      Its like the guy that is all hyped about wushu rather than doing 1000 straight punches a day.


      2000 straight punches a day is more exciting because I understand it. I would be more scared to practice all those flashy moves. Just because I trained myself to do all those flashy moves.

      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      Sometimes the "long-windedness" is necessary to set up a sales point. For example, olive oil lovers might not appreciate the fact that this product arrives within six months of pressing without being adequately schooled as to why freshness is so important -- which takes a couple paragraphs.

      And they won't be riled about "counterfeit" oil without a few paragraphs of back story. If the "scandal" was common knowledge, maybe the expository paragraphs wouldn't be as necessary.

      It's just another example of the fact that the length of a piece is often dictated by your audience's level of awareness...

      In fact, the first part of the pitch reads just like an informative article -- an "advertorial"...

      https://www.freshpressedoliveoil.com...d_olive_oil/dl

      It's only when you click for your free bottle that you get a real sales pitch...

      https://www.freshpressedoliveoil.com...ssed_olive_oil

      ...And it's for more than a free sample -- "You will automatically be enrolled as a member" (paying $124 per quarter for a bottle a month 'til you cancel)...

      I don't know much about his list, but I think that pitch is pretty well done. The "advertorial" is engaging, and the letter is a good sell for a primed audience...


      Free samples are the best with anything. The fact that he is relieving pressure off of the prospect is good. He's removing most of the obstacles to do whatever it takes to get the client hooked.


      Also to knock an obstacle out of the park, a lengthy discussion is preferred. The more you talk about it and the more detail you get into about it, the more it becomes real inside the prospects mind. It banishes skepticism.
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  • (Disclaimer 1) All copy is subjective - I might like it - you may hate it.

    What matters is the results.

    (Disclaimer 2) I am a huge Bencivenga fan.

    And I dislike long rambling spiels but I always enjoy reading his wondrous words - they never feel laboured (and never sound too "elegant" leaving that "this is a bit unreal" feeling).

    The 100 pitch was 1078 pages long (give or take) and of course sold out making a cool $500,000 plus the DVD sales.

    I've never read a piece by Gary that contained any "hype"

    Everything is immaculately emotionally and logically balanced.

    I imagine this is one of the many reasons why he had (has) more success than anyone else.


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    There is a a certain magic about good writing.

    If you read a piece and it sounds like good writing, then it is not.
    Good writing is transparent. You don't even know you are reading it.

    If a writer can get you to forget that you are reading and just having an
    experience then that is great writing.

    A movie that so enraptures you that you forget that you are watching a
    movie is a great movie.

    A woman that makes you forget that she is your wife is a good woman ...

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
    You hate him because you ain't him.

    Oh, and while I'm at it... that Da Vinci fellow... what a hack!

    Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author Microniche
    Lol. I knew I would get some serious hate for this thread.

    Contrary to what several of you were ranting about, I actually liked the fact his copy was low key and hype-free. That's not my problem with it. It just doesn't read well, and the rhythm/flow seems choppy to me.

    I could point out specifically what I mean...but it would be lost in this environment of group-think and deity worship.

    p.s. As for the olive oil promotion, I raised it specifically because I'm quite the olive oil connoisseur. I could tell you in elaborate detail the difference in taste between Greek and Spanish olives. Given that, I'd say I'm in his target market. But his sales letter still didn't read well, and I found myself having to re-read to connect the dots. *Shrugs*
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    • Profile picture of the author dmaster555
      Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

      Lol. I knew I would get some serious hate for this thread.

      Contrary to what several of you were ranting about, I actually liked the fact his copy was low key and hype-free. That's not my problem with it. It just doesn't read well, and the rhythm/flow seems choppy to me.

      I could point out specifically what I mean...but it would be lost in this environment of group-think and deity worship.

      p.s. As for the olive oil promotion, I raised it specifically because I'm quite the olive oil connoisseur. I could tell you in elaborate detail the difference in taste between Greek and Spanish olives. Given that, I'd say I'm in his target market. But his sales letter still didn't read well, and I found myself having to re-read to connect the dots. *Shrugs*
      You've received some pretty decent responses, not just "hate". I guess what you are looking for is for someone to agree with you.

      You say you "could point out exactly what you mean" but I doubt you can. Otherwise I don't see the point of this thread or what kind of response you're looking for.

      Yeah you're right man. I don't get why his copy has performed so well. He's overrated and writing is choppy. I can't explain why but it just is!

      There you go, thread complete .
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      • Profile picture of the author Microniche
        Originally Posted by dmaster555 View Post

        You've received some pretty decent responses, not just "hate". I guess what you are looking for is for someone to agree with you.

        You say you "could point out exactly what you mean" but I doubt you can. Otherwise I don't see the point of this thread or what kind of response you're looking for.

        Yeah you're right man. I don't get why his copy has performed so well. He's overrated and writing is choppy. I can't explain why but it just is!

        There you go, thread complete .
        I do appreciate your sincere affirmations...

        Let's see if I can ease those doubts of yours though.

        How 'bout tomorrow I put up a detailed critique of the olive oil piece? You might *gasp* agree with me.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Pines
          Originally Posted by Microniche View Post


          How 'bout tomorrow I put up a detailed critique of the olive oil piece?



          I'd love to see that.


          While you're at it, post up some of your control pieces that have mailed to millions and pulled in hundreds of millions. Then the rest of us douchebags can see how it's REALLY done.
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          • Profile picture of the author Scotty Truong
            Frankly who cares?
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            • Profile picture of the author DABK
              Frankly, I do. You should, too. Because if you knew why Bencivenga's copy pulled so well, you could get the same results.

              I'd love me some 'the same results.'

              Originally Posted by Scotty Truong View Post

              Frankly who cares?
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              • Profile picture of the author Scotty Truong
                You got me wrong. But either way is fine.
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                • Profile picture of the author Complex
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                  • Profile picture of the author The Pines
                    Originally Posted by Complex View Post



                    Just a few quotes from that thread, all from the OP


                    ~ trying to land my first real client.
                    ~ I'm unproven

                    ~ no portfolio, or testimonials
                    ~ if had my own successful products, I wouldn't be freelancing
                    ~ I was just hoping for some specific suggestions from the experienced guys here...
                    ~ I'm a newbie when it comes to copywriting

                    ~ Obviously, I need to sort out the cash flow situation


                    Still waiting for that critique...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      I could point out specifically what I mean...
                      but not from a position of expertise and experience.... so where would the value of such a critique lie?

                      Had you WRITTEN that you've been studying successful copywriters and don't quite understand a certain person's style, members here might take time to explain their view (as experienced/successful copywriters) of Gary B's writing.

                      Instead, you posted in a dismissive way and your words turned people away rather than drawing them in.

                      A lesson in copywriting???
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                  • Profile picture of the author Microniche
                    Originally Posted by Complex View Post

                    Microniche,

                    This is you:

                    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...k-clients.html

                    You've never had a real client yet. Look, confidence is good to some extent. Too much, based on nothing at all, is toxic.

                    Anyone can be a critic online.

                    Just go to IMDB and YouTube for evidence of that. Folks who've never done a damn thing critiquing the hell out of people doing the damn thing.

                    But until you've actually done something -

                    Your critique of someone who actually did the thing is worthless. Go get humbled by the marketplace a few times.

                    Then see if you are so quick to criticize a man who did the thing better than most for 40 years.

                    P.S. Just because you like olive oil, it doesn't mean that you represent the entire world of folks who dig olive oil. You are a sample of ONE. Completely insignificant. From a statistics point of view.

                    Someone needs to say it - Get over yourself.

                    Because if you don't those reality checks are going to come pretty hard. But of course, you'd actually have to have clients and copy out there for that to even happen.
                    Dumpster diving through through forum posts betrays your abundant free time. I envy you!

                    But here's my counterpoint...

                    Michelangelo may have been a nobody before he sculpted the Pietà, but he was still...Michel - freaking - angelo.

                    The guy who's never asked a girl on a date can truthfully say he's never been turned down.

                    But do you really wanna be that guy?
                    I can't say I've ever been on a proper date. Picking up tarts in bars is more my thing, ya know...instant gratification and less complications.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                    Originally Posted by Complex View Post

                    Anyone can be a critic online.
                    Or anywhere.

                    But it takes balls to crank out copy and take the gains with the losses, as everyone worth studying does.

                    Speaking of critics (and this is for the OP), the only ones who matter are: Washington, Lincoln, Jackson, Grant, Benjamin and McKinley.

                    If those cats are finding their way into your pocket, who gives a rip what someone posting on Warriorforum between graveyard shifts at Burger King says.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Microniche
                      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

                      Or anywhere.
                      Speaking of critics (and this is for the OP), the only ones who matter are: Washington, Lincoln, Jackson, Grant, Benjamin and McKinley.
                      Uncle Sam might not agree.

                      If those cats are finding their way into your pocket, who gives a rip what someone posting on Warriorforum between graveyard shifts at Burger King says.
                      Personally, I have more respect for a hardworking burger flipper...than an internet marketer making money teaching people how to do something he's never done himself.

                      But I'm weird that way...
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                      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

                        Uncle Sam might not agree.
                        Um, okay. But Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy might...that's three to one if you want to count fictional characters. You also missed the metaphor. Guess I should have made it more foolproof.

                        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

                        Personally, I have more respect for a hardworking burger flipper...than an internet marketer making money teaching people how to do something he's never done himself.
                        And how much respect should one have for the Burger Flipper who isn't making squat as a marketer but is criticizing the most respected authorities in the field?

                        Maybe Gary will visit your drive-through and leave two shiny Jeffersons (those are nickels BTW, worth 5 cents each for a total of 10 cents, for the metaphorically challenged) as a tip.

                        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

                        In any case, without running a spit test...it's hard to argue one way or the other.


                        There. Now it's easier to argue both ways.

                        P.S. This is my last response on your ridiculous post. Rolling in the mud with a pig is the first step to becoming one.
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        • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
          Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

          I do appreciate your sincere affirmations...

          Let's see if I can ease those doubts of yours though.

          How 'bout tomorrow I put up a detailed critique of the olive oil piece? You might *gasp* agree with me.
          Oh, please, please do.

          We could all use some weekend entertainment, and you could use a double-digit post count.
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          • Profile picture of the author Microniche
            Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

            Oh, please, please do.

            We could all use some weekend entertainment, and you could use a double-digit post count.
            Done. And done.

            I took another (more thorough) look at the olive oil sales page. I was a bit harsh. He does some things masterfully. For example, using the various news excerpts and studies to make his case for him -- brilliant.

            My main gripe is with the discontinuity between some of the sections - he hops around a bit. Maybe I'm OCD, but it bothered me enough during the first reading to put up this thread ranting about it.

            Anyways, I've uploaded my thoughts. Whether it informs you, or entertains you, Seth...
            I'll consider my job well done either way.



            Edit: Blasted file size limits! I've uploaded it here instead..

            http://www.filedropper.com/benecivengaoliveoil
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            • Profile picture of the author DABK
              I read your objections and... your way would work a lot worse.

              You're writing like you're composing literature, for college English... Which is great, unless you're writing copy.

              What you call 'he jumps' is actually him leading the reader from a negative about the competition to a positive about his Oil.

              The more jarring the jumps, the more the positive sticks out, remains with the reader.

              If you tell your kid,

              I love you dearly, but you're a moron

              the kid hears you're a moron and it hurts more because the hypocrisy that preceded it.

              Works like that with everything.

              Those so call oils are not real and they can do damage to your body; my oil is good for your body.

              Most people, by virtue of being human, will emphasize 'my oil is good for your body' and remember vaguely that not all oils are good for your body.

              A lot of copy that works ignores/misuses punctuation/grammar. Misusing in the right places makes things more powerful.

              Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

              Done. And done.

              I took another (more thorough) look at the olive oil sales page. I was a bit harsh. He does some things masterfully. For example, using the various news excerpts and studies to make his case for him -- brilliant.

              My main gripe is with the discontinuity between some of the sections - he hops around a bit. Maybe I'm OCD, but it bothered me enough during the first reading to put up this thread ranting about it.

              Anyways, I've uploaded my thoughts. Whether it informs you, or entertains you, Seth...
              I'll consider my job well done either way.



              Edit: Blasted file size limits! I've uploaded it here instead..

              http://www.filedropper.com/benecivengaoliveoil
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              • Profile picture of the author Microniche
                Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                I read your objections and... your way would work a lot worse.

                You're writing like you're composing literature, for college English... Which is great, unless you're writing copy.

                What you call 'he jumps' is actually him leading the reader from a negative about the competition to a positive about his Oil.

                The more jarring the jumps, the more the positive sticks out, remains with the reader.

                If you tell your kid,

                I love you dearly, but you're a moron

                the kid hears you're a moron and it hurts more because the hypocrisy that preceded it.

                Works like that with everything.

                Those so call oils are not real and they can do damage to your body; my oil is good for your body.

                Most people, by virtue of being human, will emphasize 'my oil is good for your body' and remember vaguely that not all oils are good for your body.

                A lot of copy that works ignores/misuses punctuation/grammar. Misusing in the right places makes things more powerful.
                My way "would work a lot worse"? Lol. I may be over-educated, but that's just plain 'ol bad English.

                I don't have a problem with choppy sentences, bad punctuation, informal language...that's par for the course in advertising.

                That wasn't my critique.

                Copy should flow when read aloud...like the writer's in the room having a chat with you. The sections I highlighted don't do that, and there's a logical disconnect imo.
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                • Profile picture of the author DABK
                  I agree. And think that's why it converted well.

                  Originally Posted by Microniche View Post


                  The sections I highlighted don't do that, and there's a logical disconnect imo.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Microniche
                    Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                    I agree. And think that's why it converted well.
                    Well, unless you're privy to Gary's financials we don't know how well it's converting...but let's assume it's doing well.

                    In any case, without running a spit test...it's hard to argue one way or the other.
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                  Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

                  My way "would work a lot worse"? Lol. I may be over-educated, but that's just plain 'ol bad English.

                  I don't have a problem with choppy sentences, bad punctuation, informal language...that's par for the course in advertising.

                  That wasn't my critique.

                  Copy should flow when read aloud...like the writer's in the room having a chat with you. The sections I highlighted don't do that, and there's a logical disconnect imo.
                  Then it's time to forget about your formal education. I'm serious. I have two college degrees and two health-related professional licenses but when I sit down to write copy, I have to write at a much lower reading level or else the copy isn't going to convert.

                  The average American used to read at a sixth grade reading level. I say used to because thanks to things like No Child Left Behind and Common Core, the U.S. students aren't reading as well as previous generations used to. That's not my theory: U.S. students have dropped in global ranking from ninth (2009) to twentieth (2012) in reading. (Source: U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science : The Two-Way : NPR)

                  So there's more people online either don't read English well or don't like to read... maybe they are young Americans... maybe English is not their native language... it doesn't really matter.

                  The emphasis in copy has become to write simpler so that reading the copy doesn't feel like work to the targeted prospect. At least the emphasis is IF you want your copy to convert.

                  Gary B. has over 40 years in the copywriting game. In his 100 seminar, he talks about split-testing and even put a challenge to the attendees on guessing which version of different controls converted best. So it's a safe bet to say that he's already familiar with split-testing.

                  Since this olive oil business is his own business and he hasn't written for copywriting clients in years by choice, it's also a safe bet that he's already tested the piece and that it's converting well.

                  Instead of saying you think a section of the salesletter is choppy or disjointed... ask yourself WHY a copywriter, who many people view as one of the greatest ever and has produced hundreds of millions in sales, would have written it that way.

                  Good luck,

                  Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author articlearbiter
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

    That's a borderline sacrilegious headline...I know.

    But I've been pouring over the swipes of various legendary direct-response copywriters, and the greatness is practically always justified.

    But Gary's stuff just doesn't impress me. From a writing perspective, his pieces are long-winded, and don't flow particularly well. And frankly, the salesmanship is not all that.

    His "olive oil" sales page, for example, which was mentioned in another thread...The offer at the end is a "free sample bottle" giveaway with no obligation.

    No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.

    Maybe the guy wrote some great stuff that I've missed, but I can't see what the fuss is all about honestly.
    Welcome to the world of marketing my friend. That's what the marketing is all about creating CURIOSITY.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    To add to what Mike said about lowering the reading level of the copy...

    It's to increase 'flow'.

    If your reader stumbles in a word - they're gone (often anyway).

    Readability trumps vocabulary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott McKinney
      OK well it doesn't matter what you think

      What happens when his client base reads this

      And - do you all have some opinion on who his client base would be?

      Here's what I am thinking:

      Over 60 age range. Owns property. Retired with money to spend. Worried about security, their financial security, personal security, worried about their health, want to find safe food.

      I'm guessing he's got a longer-term mindset with this as well. He's paying to connect with people who are willing to spend $40 a month for a subscription olive oil business. These people have other needs which good Gary can address in the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
    For some reason, this conversation reminds me of this...

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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      I had a similar thought Mark.

      A person who has never written a sales letter criticizing Gary B reminds me of a mosquito with an erection floating down the Mississipi river on his back yelling, "Raise the drawbridge!". LOL

      Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        I had a similar thought Mark.

        A person who has never written a sales letter criticizing Gary B reminds me of a mosquito with an erection floating down the Mississipi river on his back yelling, "Raise the drawbridge!". LOL

        Alex
        Ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa! I mean hahaha hahaaaaaaaaa!

        I'm swiping that one my friend!

        Mark
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                        • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
                          Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

                          p.s. You're one of the few copywriters around here I actually respect.
                          Respect is something more readers and contributors to this forum should have for each other.

                          There is a reason there are people with multiple posts and thanks to their names and that is because they showed respect to the people asking questions and getting genuine help from their responses.

                          The copywriters on this forum and the many great contributors to many of the sub-forums really don't care much about people who chose to disrespect them from "arms-length" as they are totally respected by their peers, families, loved one's and clients alike.

                          They respect everyone until disrespect is shown because they have an inner power that allows them to give fully to the people that surround them without negative judgement until a negative attitude is shown or revealed.

                          It would pay to study how this could work for anyone reading this.

                          This comment is not directed at the OP or anyone else for that matter but just an observation that people who show respect also gain the respect of others and then miraculously their life improves and society moves forward.
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                          • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
                            Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

                            Respect is something more readers and contributors to this forum should have for each other.

                            There is a reason there are people with multiple posts and thanks to their names and that is because they showed respect to the people asking questions and getting genuine help from their responses.

                            The copywriters on this forum and the many great contributors to many of the sub-forums really don't care much about people who chose to disrespect them from "arms-length" as they are totally respected by their peers, families, loved one's and clients alike.

                            They respect everyone until disrespect is shown because they have an inner power that allows them to give fully to the people that surround them without negative judgement until a negative attitude is shown or revealed.

                            It would pay to study how this could work for anyone reading this.

                            This comment is not directed at the OP or anyone else for that matter but just an observation that people who show respect also gain the respect of others and then miraculously their life improves and society moves forward.
                            Amen my friend...Amen!

                            God Bless,

                            Elmo
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                    • Profile picture of the author DABK
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
    I don't know why you bother debating this guy. Obviously has no idea and is not prepared to listen and learn. Just wants a blue*.


    * "blue" - Australian slang for "fight" or "argument".

    p.s. his so-called "detailed critique" was laughable.
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    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Actually, I was going to point out that this thread seemed a little "trollish," but held my tongue...

      O.P. may have started out legit, but began enjoying the attention too much...

      Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with critiquing the greats, even for a noob... Studies like that can be a learning experience and reveal interesting insights and perspectives. Problem comes when the critique has nothing to do with copywriting principles...

      (Disclaimer: I didn't read the critique. No way I'm gonna download something to my precious hard drive that could've been simply pasted into this thread... But still I bet the critique was more about "English Lit" stuff -- grammar and composition -- than copywriting principles... )
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

    No doubt it converted. But come on...it's not like he was asking for anything in return.
    Excuse me, but you get your bottle of olive oil by signing up to his quarterly automatic-bill olive oil club at $139 or $99 a quarter.

    There's no obligation because you have 90 days to cancel before you're billed.

    But rest assured: more often than not, he gets that first payment. Because it works the same way as the porn industry always worked: you make your money primarily by getting people to subscribe, and then FORGET THEY HAVE SUBSCRIBED.

    So you're sitting there and you see your card was charged. You call and want a refund. "No problem," they say. "Just send it back when you get the shipment. We'll cancel your subscription and refund your payment."

    Are you sending it back? Almost certainly not. They get to keep that payment. And if you don't call back to cancel, they'll do it again in three months.

    Now, that said - this is not Bencivenga's strongest copy.

    I would recommend you look at http://marketingbullets.com/ for something that might resonate more with you. After all, we're marketers, right? We respond to marketing discussion, and probably not so much to olive oil.

    Message to market match is one of Gary's strongest suits. The numbers don't lie - he can get in the prospect's head and convince him to buy into your story and your product.

    But if you're not the prospect, it probably doesn't work for you.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author perryny
      So awesome to see Jason, Mal and Caliban posting.

      So absolutely sucky that it's in this god awful thread that just won't die.

      Please let this stupid thread die. Please?
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      • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
        First, not sure why everybody is getting upset when somebody doesn't like somebody's style of writing. Who really cares if one guy doesn't like Gary's style.

        I'm sure Gary could care less (as he's counting his millions of dollars on his plantation style estate).

        Plus, why get upset at a poster with little reputation?

        It's like getting upset at a 2 year for wetting the bed. It's what they do.

        It's okay to criticize Gary's copy. Although, it would be helpful if the criticism was grounded.

        I find most people can't tell the difference between good and great in any field, let alone olive oil continuity sales.

        Hardly anybody can tell great from world class. It's hard to discern that subtle of a difference. Like tasting a 18 vs 25 year old scotch. Few can describe the difference.

        Because we don't have the experience or data behind the thing

        Lastly, and I tell everybody who will listen, your copy needs only to be as good as the market needs it to be. More competition, higher CPC, well... you need better copy (or a killer backend).

        Weight loss, Dating, golf, etc... you need great copy.

        For olive oil?

        From people I know who know Gary, Gary would only put out quality copy because his standard of copy is really high. His personal integrity wouldn't allow himself to put out "good enough".

        Adam
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        The Most Bad-Ass Tax Reduction Strategist for Internet Marketers who HATE paying taxes. See my happy clients

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  • Profile picture of the author TakenAction
    I thought it was pretty funny, I received an email from Ben Settle this morning who used this thread as a way to promote the "Titans of Direct Response".

    here was his email:

    Recently someone wrote the above thread title in that powerhouse of
    direct response marketing knowledge and experience:

    The Warrior Forum.

    The guy said basically this:

    He's been pouring over swipes from all the great direct response
    copywriters. But, that Gary Bencivenga (universally considered the
    world's greatest living copywriter, with the 40+year track record
    of controls to prove it) ads are long-winded, don't flow well, and
    have no salesmanship.

    He's certainly entitled to his opinion.

    And, he's probably a decent fellow.

    (It's not illegal for him to be wrong, after all.)

    I only bring this up to warn you that if you're thinking about
    checking out the "Legends of Direct Response" DVD's I've been
    yapping about all day... and you share the above warrior forum
    guy's opinion on Gary Bencivenga's ads, don't bother.

    Gary's talk is business-changing in so many ways.

    (His red shirt teaching is especially profitable.)

    But, people wandering the goo-roo casino won't get it... Will think
    it long-winded... And, will say it teaches no real salesmanship.
    (Just like the warrior forum guy thought of Gary's ads.)

    So anyway, if that's you, don't buy.

    I'm dead serious about this, too.

    Just leave it alone.

    Save your money.

    And, go ye back to the warrior forum.

    For everyone else?

    I highly suggest checking it out here:

    XXXXXXXXXX

    Yes, that is an affiliate link.

    No, it's not cheap.

    And, there's nothing "ninja" in it.

    (The word is even mocked during the event.)

    But if you go through the product, apply the various lessons,
    stories, and experiences to your emails and ads... I think you'll
    find it makes you tens, if not hundreds, of times your investment
    back over time.

    More:

    I've created a little "carrot" to get you to buy today.

    (And not put it off until it's even more expensive.)

    And, that carrot is over $5,000 worth of bonuses (true retail
    value, not phony made-up value) I'll send you if you use my link.
    These bonuses are also yours to keep even if you decide to return
    the Titans DVD's.

    These bonuses include:

    1. Crypto Marketing Secrets book
    2. The Agora tapes downloads
    3. 10 Copyright-free emails you can use however you want
    4. Gary Halbert Secrets From Beyond The Grave interview
    5. Free back issue of any "Email Players" issue you want
    6. Bullet Points template (same one I use)

    This offer ends Sunday at midnight.

    (Pacific time)

    Use my affiliate link below to get it and all the bonuses:

    XXXXXXXXXXXX

    Ben Settle
    Signature

    The best thing you can do is put yourself out there.

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  • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
    Aaaaaand this is why I normally avoid the copywriting forum like the plague. Nothing but an ego circle-jerk of epic proportions.

    So the guy doesn't like one of the greats. Perhaps some of the things he said were even a bit ignorant. Who gives two shits, honestly? It's not like he insulted anyone here's writing.

    Besides, he obviously isn't going to get whatever super-intelligent "I-sure-showed-you" responses any of you are wasting your time serving up. It's a lose-lose.

    I understand feeling the urge to educate someone in a condescending manner when they're being a complete asshole, but this guy was beyond polite about his opinion. Which was merely that – an opinion.
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Microniche
      Well...well...well.

      I'm delighted that someone's profiting off my insights.

      The blow back from this thread took me by surprise honestly.

      As good man Ben Settle pointed out, I broke no law.

      But apparently, some fragile egos in these parts couldn't handle the notion that one of their copy gods was *gasp* actually a man.

      Anyhow, I take the hate in good stride. You know what they say --- any publicity is good publicity.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

        Well...well...well.

        I'm delighted that someone's profiting off my insights.

        The blow back from this thread took me by surprise honestly.

        As good man Bet Settle pointed out, I broke no law.

        But apparently, some fragile egos in these parts couldn't handle the notion that one of their copy gods was *gasp* actually a man.

        Anyhow, I take the hate in good stride. You know what they say --- any publicity is good publicity.
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        • Profile picture of the author Microniche
          Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

          Apparently, my sarcasm went over yours.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

        As good man Ben Settle pointed out, I broke no law.
        He also said, in no uncertain terms, you're wrong.

        Anyhow, I take the hate in good stride. You know what they say --- any publicity is good publicity.
        How does a person posting from behind the cloak of anonymity get publicity?

        Alex
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        • Profile picture of the author Microniche
          Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

          How does a person posting from behind the cloak of anonymity get publicity?

          Alex
          A lot of famous writers have written under pseudonyms, bud.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
            Originally Posted by Microniche View Post

            A lot of famous writers have written under pseudonyms, bud.
            Well there you go. "Microniche" has gotten good publicity. LOL

            Alex
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