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Who can help me...

by Glimmermann
20 replies
Hey all.

I've recently started getting into copywriting, just as a skill for now. It's suprising how enjoyable it can actually be.

I've got a few books that im reading through and regularly visit a few copywriting related forums and blogs etc. However...

I have a few questions regarding copywriting as a job and exactly what projects entail and what you are responsible for as a copywriter.

If anybody can help me answer these questions I would be very grateful!

1: Example: client send you email: asks for a redesign of a flyer or banner or whatever: is the copywriter meant to actually design things in a graphical sense or just submit the actual words? Do copywriters also do the graphics?

2: Lets say you come up with a few words for a banner or even 100 words for a small ad. Once you've got those words down and your happy, what exactly do you send to show your client? A word file with a few words in them? How does this process work? What do you actually send the client when your done and in what form.

3. What form of rates are best. Hourly, day rates or project rates?

4. At what point do you start charging the client? How do you know when the project has been mutually agreed and you can start charging for your time? Do you need some kind of contract?

Sorry guys, I know these questions probably sound really stupid, but I am completely new and just want to get my head around some of the basics regarding how the whole thing works.

Thanks for any help!!
  • Profile picture of the author NickN
    Speaking from my own experience with the answers below.

    1: Example: client send you email: asks for a redesign of a flyer or banner or whatever: is the copywriter meant to actually design things in a graphical sense or just submit the actual words? Do copywriters also do the graphics?
    Copywriters don't usually do the actual design work -- just act as more of an "art director." Partnering with a good designer will go a long way.

    2: Lets say you come up with a few words for a banner or even 100 words for a small ad. Once you've got those words down and your happy, what exactly do you send to show your client? A word file with a few words in them? How does this process work? What do you actually send the client when your done and in what form.
    Depends on the situation, client, expectations, etc. I usually send the copy with the design concept/notes to the client in a Word document.

    3. What form of rates are best. Hourly, day rates or project rates?
    Flat rate with a back end is ideal.

    4. At what point do you start charging the client? How do you know when the project has been mutually agreed and you can start charging for your time? Do you need some kind of contract?
    Get money up front -- 100% up front is best, but 50% up front and 50% upon completion is fine if you trust the client. Always get something in writing. Always.

    Again, this is from my own experience, capeesh?

    -Nick
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by Glimmermann View Post

    Hey all.

    I've recently started getting into copywriting, just as a skill for now. It's suprising how enjoyable it can actually be.

    I've got a few books that im reading through and regularly visit a few copywriting related forums and blogs etc. However...

    I have a few questions regarding copywriting as a job and exactly what projects entail and what you are responsible for as a copywriter.

    If anybody can help me answer these questions I would be very grateful!

    1: Example: client send you email: asks for a redesign of a flyer or banner or whatever: is the copywriter meant to actually design things in a graphical sense or just submit the actual words? Do copywriters also do the graphics?

    2: Lets say you come up with a few words for a banner or even 100 words for a small ad. Once you've got those words down and your happy, what exactly do you send to show your client? A word file with a few words in them? How does this process work? What do you actually send the client when your done and in what form.

    3. What form of rates are best. Hourly, day rates or project rates?

    4. At what point do you start charging the client? How do you know when the project has been mutually agreed and you can start charging for your time? Do you need some kind of contract?

    Sorry guys, I know these questions probably sound really stupid, but I am completely new and just want to get my head around some of the basics regarding how the whole thing works.

    Thanks for any help!!
    No need to apologize.

    They're actually pretty good questions for someone just starting out.

    Question 1:

    That's something you'll have to decide. The advantage to only doing copy is that the jobs are less complicated and you don't have to keep switching your mental gears between writer and designer.

    The BIG advantage of doing graphics too, if you can pull it off, is that graphic designers can be a thorn in the side for copywriters. Most of them, aren't marketers, they're artists. The problem is, almost none of them realize this. They think they know better than the writer, and they massacre the copy, just to make it work with the design.

    Over the past 18 years, I don't think anyone has caused me more frustration than designers who think they're marketers. So if you can eliminate them and take charge of the entire layout AND do a great job, without losing your mind, you should consider doing both.

    Question 2:

    Just send them in a word doc.

    Question 3:

    It depends on the project. If the project looks like it could evolve as you work on it, go for a deposit and charge by the hour. Some clients are more finicky than others. Sometimes they want to add or change stuff which was agreed from the start, then you end up in the awkward spot of renegotiating fees. If the job is simple and the client doesn't seem high maintenance, a flat rate is fine.

    Question 4:

    Get 100% or 50% up front. Before you start working. If you're working on hourly rates, get a DEPOSIT up front. Never start working before you get paid. If someone asks you to, there's a damn good chance you'll either get paid reeeaalllly late, or even stiffed. And when it comes to that, it doesn't matter how good your work is. It's a matter of the client's capability and willingness to pay you on time.

    As for contracts, I don't use them. But I have had to get REALLY good at judging people's character. My experience has taught me that people who honor written contracts will almost always honor a verbal one while people who won't honor a verbal contract, probably won't honor a written one either.

    Dave Ramsey has a great chapter on this in his book "Entreleadership" on that topic. Anyone working as a freelancer should read it.

    Good luck, and welcome to Warriorforum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Glimmermann
      Really guys, thanks a lot. Some great advice here.

      Just to expand on my question regarding what I am actually meant to be sending clients after I have completed: I just get the feeling that sending a word doc with a de w lines of text looks a bit amateurish? You sure they won't look at that and think "oh look this guy hasn't done much work, I bet he did that up in half an hour"

      Is there any strategy you guys use to make the file you send over look more professional? Do you explain why you have chosen certain lines of copy/headlines etc? Include your logo?

      Just trying to get a real feel for how a finished piece of work is meant to look.

      Thank You!
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by Glimmermann View Post

        Really guys, thanks a lot. Some great advice here.

        Just to expand on my question regarding what I am actually meant to be sending clients after I have completed: I just get the feeling that sending a word doc with a de w lines of text looks a bit amateurish? You sure they won't look at that and think "oh look this guy hasn't done much work, I bet he did that up in half an hour"
        If your client thinks that, they need to be educated about what copywriting is and what it isn't.

        It's not about about putting in time or making a word count. It's about the RESULTS your ad gets when they publish it. A client who doesn't get that isn't worth writing for.

        I don't mind charging someone $250 for 15 minutes of work if my ad makes them several thousand dollars over the next 12 to 18 months.

        Make it your #1 priority to write stuff that does that. Make it your #2 priority to work only for clients who either understand that or who can be brought up to speed on it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Glimmermann
          Okay, I get that. All about the results.

          Say that a client wants you to produce a leaflet for them, am I write that the copywriter is only responsible for putting the words into a file and sending them across and that the clients graphics department or whatever is responsible for actually adding the words into a leaflet? Just checking im thinking along the right lines.

          Secondly in regards to pay...

          Let's say a project only takes you half an hour, would you charge the client for the whole hour? I guess there's a bit of a gray area here open to exploitation where a freelancer finishes a piece of work quickly and tells the client that it took him two hours for instance.

          Or for example client gives you a deadline and you finish before, do you just keep working on minute details so that you can charge for the full time?

          How do clients get around this potential problem?

          Thinking about it I guess this is why clients prefer writers who charge on a project basis versus hourly or daily.

          Again thanks a lot. Those should be my last questions before I go and digest it all!
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          • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
            Originally Posted by Glimmermann View Post

            Secondly in regards to pay...

            Let's say a project only takes you half an hour, would you charge the client for the whole hour? I guess there's a bit of a gray area here open to exploitation where a freelancer finishes a piece of work quickly and tells the client that it took him two hours for instance.
            The best advice in this department is get paid for who you are and not for what you do.

            Think about this...

            All chefs start out with access to the same ingredients....

            ...so how come one can cut up the said ingredients and just arrange them beautifully on a plate in less than 15 minutes and charge "Top Dollar"....and another can labor over the preparation of the same ingredients and couldn't gift the finished meal to a bunch of prisoners on death row?

            Time is irrelevant.
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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            Originally Posted by Glimmermann View Post

            Okay, I get that. All about the results.

            Say that a client wants you to produce a leaflet for them, am I write that the copywriter is only responsible for putting the words into a file and sending them across and that the clients graphics department or whatever is responsible for actually adding the words into a leaflet? Just checking im thinking along the right lines.

            Secondly in regards to pay...

            Let's say a project only takes you half an hour, would you charge the client for the whole hour? I guess there's a bit of a gray area here open to exploitation where a freelancer finishes a piece of work quickly and tells the client that it took him two hours for instance.

            Or for example client gives you a deadline and you finish before, do you just keep working on minute details so that you can charge for the full time?

            How do clients get around this potential problem?

            Thinking about it I guess this is why clients prefer writers who charge on a project basis versus hourly or daily.

            Again thanks a lot. Those should be my last questions before I go and digest it all!
            Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm gonna let the other members finish answering this thread. This is what clients pay me for.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    Never charge by the hour. Ever.

    Two things:

    1) You have to position yourself to reach the kind of clients you want to work with. And if you do it right, you won't have any problem charging 100% upfront fees - no matter how much you're asking. I know that sounds wacky... and yes... there's definitely some vetting...

    But charging by the hour is a great way to devalue the craft (IMO) and always have to be prospecting. (Because you're not making enough money to keep above water.)

    2) First learn #1.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      My experience has taught me that people who honor written contracts will almost always honor a verbal one while people who won't honor a verbal contract, probably won't honor a written one either.
      Seth,

      That is really interesting. On on the one hand, I agree with what you said above. Nevertheless, I've found that good clients don't balk at simple, clear, written contracts, and they help prevent honest misunderstandings down the line. So I use them for every gig that's over a certain amount.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        Seth,

        That is really interesting. On on the one hand, I agree with what you said above. Nevertheless, I've found that good clients don't balk at simple, clear, written contracts, and they help prevent honest misunderstandings down the line. So I use them for every gig that's over a certain amount.

        Marcia Yudkin
        Well, that's ^ why new copywriters should get a variety of perspectives on this stuff.

        I've only been ripped off four times since I started freelancing. Once by a programmer I hired, 3 times by writing clients. In three out of those four cases, we had a written/signed contract.

        For large projects, I agree, it's good to get the deliverable and payments clarified in an email or document. That eliminates honest misunderstandings. I'm just not convinced of how adding a signature to the bottom makes things any clearer.

        Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

        A contract that transparently breaks down deliverables, compensation, backend, deadlines, variables, etc... only helps keep communication clear. And even when you're just talking about two people, communication can break down at the speed of light - even when the relationship started out as ideally as possible.

        That's just called being human.
        Yeah, see that reasoning has always irked me a little. Why add the signature, unless you suspect the person might not honor the contract? And if you think they won't, why work with them?

        Or, suppose you DO work with them...what good is a contract except a reason to bog yourself down in a messy court battle over a lousy $10, $20 or $30k? By the time you add up the legal fees, headaches and wasted time and energy, you're probably losing money.

        Seriously, not looking for a debate. I'm curious as to how people reason this out in their heads.
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        • Profile picture of the author NickN
          True story: I haven't gotten burned by someone who hasn't honored a contract. I say ALWAYS get shit in writing because I watch way too many plaintiffs get burned on The People's Court by not having a written contract -- including copywriters.

          I need to get out more.

          -Nick
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          • Profile picture of the author Glimmermann
            Guys, I've decided to go with charging a fixed project rate versus hourly. Quick question:

            Am I right in thinking that all you guys do to arrive at the project price is to estimate how many hours you think the project will take and x that by your hourly rate?

            The problem that I will have initially is that I will have no reference points to really understand how long these projects can expect to take.
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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            Originally Posted by NickN View Post

            I watch way too many plaintiffs get burned on The People's Court by not having a written contract -- including copywriters.k
            Did they get burnt because they had no contract, or did they get burnt because they did business with someone who simply doesn't honor agreements?

            There's a huge difference.

            I think a lot of people fail to see this because they assume a contract would have solved the problem. Again, people who don't honor verbal agreements, won't honor written ones either. Sure, they're technically breaking the law...but in their minds, it only counts if they get caught and punished. Unscrupulous people count on the fact that most contract breaches just aren't worth the legal trouble for the plaintiff.

            I'm not against using contracts, but unless you've got seven figures or more on the table, they're a band-aid at best. The most important thing is to become a good judge of character.

            Robert Ringer has an excellent description of this in "To Be or Not to Be Intimidated," where he talks about the three types. Ringer used contracts of course, but he was dealing in hundreds of millions of dollars. And he STILL insisted that judging character is more important. Or again, the section on contracts in Dave Ramsey's book "Entreleadership." And read point #3 here...

            10 Business Lessons From a Snarky Entrepreneur

            Tons of other experts have chimed in on this, but I can't think of them all right now.
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              Did they get burnt because they had no contract, or did they get burnt because they did business with someone who simply doesn't honor agreements?
              Great question.

              Most get-rich-quick gurus don't put enough (or maybe any) emphasis on choosing where you get traffic from and who you are attracting as customers.

              Attract certain kinds of people and you may get money encumbered by no end of hassles and unpleasantness.

              Currently I aim to do business with nice people who have interesting challenges. Otherwise it's really not worth the money.

              Marcia Yudkin
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            • Profile picture of the author NickN
              Did they get burnt because they had no contract, or did they get burnt because they did business with someone who simply doesn't honor agreements?
              On court shows, usually both.


              I think a lot of people fail to see this because they assume a contract would have solved the problem. Again, people who don't honor verbal agreements, won't honor written ones either. Sure, they're technically breaking the law...but in their minds, it only counts if they get caught and punished. Unscrupulous people count on the fact that most contract breaches just aren't worth the legal trouble for the plaintiff.

              I'm not against using contracts, but unless you've got seven figures or more on the table, they're a band-aid at best. The most important thing is to become a good judge of character.

              Robert Ringer has an excellent description of this in "To Be or Not to Be Intimidated," where he talks about the three types. Ringer used contracts of course, but he was dealing in hundreds of millions of dollars. And he STILL insisted that judging character is more important. Or again, the section on contracts in Dave Ramsey's book "Entreleadership." And read point #3 here...

              10 Business Lessons From a Snarky Entrepreneur

              Tons of other experts have chimed in on this, but I can't think of them all right now.
              That's a fair argument. I outsource my services to a "virtual" marketing company that does everything online, and we make sure to get everything in writing. The kind of stuff we do has lots of moving parts, and we have a large amount of clients, so formal contracts are a must.

              But if you're a lone-wolf copywriter, I can see how judge of character can be more important than written contracts. Like you implied, working with good, trustworthy clients is the most important thing.

              -Nick
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              • Profile picture of the author Saimun106
                Originally Posted by NickN View Post

                On court shows, usually both.




                That's a fair argument. I outsource my services to a "virtual" marketing company that does everything online, and we make sure to get everything in writing. The kind of stuff we do has lots of moving parts, and we have a large amount of clients, so formal contracts are a must.

                But if you're a lone-wolf copywriter, I can see how judge of character can be more important than written contracts. Like you implied, working with good, trustworthy clients is the most important thing.

                -Nick
                very nice comment
                Formal agreements are a must to scale
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    For the most part... verbal contracts aren't worth the tongue they're printed on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    A contract that transparently breaks down deliverables, compensation, backend, deadlines, variables, etc... only helps keep communication clear. And even when you're just talking about two people, communication can break down at the speed of light - even when the relationship started out as ideally as possible.

    That's just called being human.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ilenia Internet Marketer
    Hello Glimmermann

    Payment for hours belittles the role of copywriter, but you can do if you are at the beginning, as soon as you realize your full potential and persuasive writing, however, 'you have to raise the bar, becoming a professional and make you pay: CASH $ $ $ !!!!

    As for contracts written or verbal I think that having a contract is much more professional and clear, but I do not write even if the head is not an amount already hardened on my account
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  • Profile picture of the author TypingPandas
    Hi there,

    I know this comes a bit late, but I hope it helps.

    1: Example: client send you email: asks for a redesign of a flyer or banner or whatever: is the copywriter meant to actually design things in a graphical sense or just submit the actual words? Do copywriters also do the graphics?
    Copywriters don't do designs. Copywriters just deal with words and the content itself. There are graphic designers, web designers, etc., who deal with the actual design of the copy.

    2: Lets say you come up with a few words for a banner or even 100 words for a small ad. Once you've got those words down and your happy, what exactly do you send to show your client? A word file with a few words in them? How does this process work? What do you actually send the client when your done and in what form.
    We send Word files to our clients. The word document includes the actual copy/piece of content and details/explanations if necessary. Some clients have their own templates and want us to use those. But they're also in Word. This mainly happens when we're writing e-books. If the client has a particular specification regarding the format, they will tell you. Or you can ask that from the beginning, to be assured.

    3. What form of rates are best. Hourly, day rates or project rates?
    We use either per project rate or per word rate. The per word rate is more common and easily to track for us (and for the clients), but it depends on each copywriter and his/her habits. If it's a bigger project, you can charge per project. If it's just one or two articles, you can charge per word. When it comes to the prices, it depends on the type of project you're dealing with. Don't charge all the same. More difficult tasks (like technical ones, for example) require more research, so they will be more expensive than simpler and shorter articles.

    4. At what point do you start charging the client? How do you know when the project has been mutually agreed and you can start charging for your time? Do you need some kind of contract?
    As other said, ALWAYS request an up front payment. It doesn't matter if the client seems nice and correct and he only requested a 500-word article. Ask him to pay for that article up front. When it comes to smaller projects like this, you should request 100% up front. If you're dealing with a much bigger project, then you can request 50% up front and 50% when the work is completed.

    Always request money in advance even if you trust the client and you've worked with him for a long time. When I first started as a copywriter, I had a client who requested and paid for about 10 batches of 10 articles each. When I got to the 11th batch and send it to him, I received no answer for days. One day he just said "Oh, sorry, I was very busy, bla, bla, bla, but I will send the money right away". Guess what? He never did, despite all my e-mails and messages and invoices etc. So, if he's an older client, it doesn't mean you can trust him...

    Good luck in your new copywriting adventure. We hope you'll enjoy it!

    Best,
    Typing Pandas
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