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Question about branding

by Loren Woirhaye
25 replies
Ok. I know what branding is in terms of our common definition
in marketing. Personally I have yet to figure out a tactful way to
tell clients and prospects that most of their "branding" ideas
are akin to flushing money down the toilet.

I'm a direct-response guy. Branding should be co-incidental
to making sales with advertising and websites.

Here's my problem - I'd actually like to IMPROVE my understanding
of how to sell marketing services to prospects who are (stupidly, IMO)
fixated on "branding".

This may seem kind of arrogant of me, but some of you will understand
where I'm coming from. Clients often have an inner-war inside
themselves.... entrepreneurs are often control freaks and they
want to control perception of their business and latch onto the
idea of "branding" as a way to do it.

Then they come and want a marketing person to invent and
implement a "brand" for them... and along with it come all sorts
of bizzarre ideas about the efficacy of Twitter, SEO, you name
it...

Here's my issue:

-> I know for a fact most "professional" or "corporate" branding
websites SUCK at increasing sales and in many cases the owners
of such sites are not tracking or testing... they basically have
a brochure.

-> Prospects WANT these sorts of sites... and they don't believe
it when I tell the direct response marketing is way more bang for
their buck.... because they tend to associate it with get-rich-quick
schemes.

SO - we have this objection to direct-response marketing based
on erroneous assumptions about what it is effective for.

AND - we have the client/prospect wanting the kind of site that
is gonna be a waste of money... but it's the image he wants of
his business.

###

I'm kind of venting here, but I would like to add more corporate-style
branding to my skills - and sneak-in the stuff (direct response) that
really works.

I never worked in the corporate world so to say I don't really
understand that mentality is an understatement.

Since "entrepreneurs" coming out of the corporate world to start
their own companies will increase in number, they will, many of them,
want to do what they THINK will work for marketing their businesses,
which means a variation on the same marketing that has American
corporations in shambles.

Yesterday I basically told a prospect who "wanted" a corporate
site to go waste his money getting one and then call me later
to come and fix it. If I had more skill in this area I would have been
able to offer a package that met his emotional need for the
familiarity of a corporate-style approach with the stuff that
I know actually works to bring-in customers.


Any suggested reading for how to do this?
#branding #question
  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Loren, this guy lives a couple cities over and is pretty well run into the same thing you are speaking. Can maybe look at his blog/site/newsletters/videos.

    Brand Corral

    You have to look a bit for the jems but they are their.

    I would actually love to meet the guy as he seems knowledgable in marketing. He has worked to brand the city (don't ask), some businesses I know of here, and businesses all over the world.

    I am on your side about branding. Unless you are coke, home depot, etc. do you really think you need branding?

    I did work in the corporate world. The only ones concerned about branding were the people who's job it was to market the business. The thing is, they had no idea how their customers perceived them, never whould think to ask them and based billions of dollars in websites, software, document look everything off of what employees thought. It was truly a Dilbert comic corporation.

    You have to think from their perspective. They have hired people to do what they are hiring you to fix. You have to "brand" yourself as being different (but not competing) with their own expensive employees. How I did this (and tripled my salary overnight) was I promised to show their employees how to do what they were paying me to do. I taught them but also learned what they knew about corporations at the same time making it worth the "knowledge exchange".
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Loren,

    This is something that Drew Whitman likes to rant about. Get his book Cashvertising and read pages 182-185. He gives you the transcript of a typical conversation with a clueless client. For about $10 bucks at Amazon, it's a great read. (Buy it now, you can thank me later.)

    Branding is simple. It's about being first in mind when a given NEED arises. Most marketing people never figure that out. They think it's about being CLEVER. It's not. When my basement flooded, I called Roto-Rooter. I thought of them first. I could have called any of fifty other plumbers, but I didn't. Why? Because they weren't "top of mind." They didn't understand branding.

    Having worked in the corporate world for many years, I've come across a lot of clueless individuals. The truth is, when it comes to marketing, MOST managers and business owners are clueless. That's just a given.

    The important thing is whether they know that they're clueless. In the business world -- both small and corporate -- there's a huge amount of ego involved in the decision-making process.

    The people that know they are clueless are easy to help. The ones that represent the problem are those that are clueless, but either don't know it or won't admit it because of their ego.

    However, rather than just give up on the egomaniacs, you can sometimes turn them around by hitting them with a dose of reality. The tactic? Overwhelm them with what they don't know. If they get that dazed look in their eyes, you've got'em on the ropes. If not, move on... some people can't (or won't) be helped. You can't save everybody.

    Johnny
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Send them to zombo.com

    Branding is a long-term strategy. It's good to brand yourself; it's good to keep a branding message in mind. But it's important to understand that branding, in the short term, will hurt your sales - because it's taking focus away from your immediate goals.

    You need to balance your branding efforts. If you put all your effort into branding, you get zombo.com; if you put none of your effort into branding, you get heartlandamerica.com - and most people don't want to be either one of those. Extremity is easy. Balance is hard.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Collette
    Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

    ...Clients often have an inner-war inside
    themselves.... entrepreneurs are often control freaks and they
    want to control perception of their business and latch onto the
    idea of "branding" as a way to do it.

    Then they come and want a marketing person to invent and
    implement a "brand" for them...
    Loren - I find that most clients (including "corporate" ones) have a very vague understanding about what branding really is andwhat branding can, or should, achieve.

    You've probably already discovered that most clients afflicted with "Brand Fever" are going to fight you tooth and nail if you point out that most "branding" (possibly including theirs) is little more than navel-gazing of the most self-indulgent kind.

    And that their prospects really don't give a passing pig fart about their precious "brand".

    So, the first thing I would do is explain to the client that branding should be a part of his marketing and advertising plan. All three should work together to achieve his marketing goals.

    Then, I would ask the client what his marketing goals are.

    Next, I would ask the client to articulate his brand proposition for me.

    I follow this up with, "How is your brand proposition going to help you achieve your marketing goals?"

    *cue the crickets*

    This is usually the "Massive-Thump-Upside-The-Head-moment for these clients.

    Because they simply haven't considered their branding program from that perspective. And this is usually the moment they realize that their "brand" is, or is about to be, an expensive, time-sucking mistake.

    Note: after each of the above questions, say nothing, unless it is to clarify an answer. No "education" no judgement, no hint that you think the answers you just heard are the lilting babbles of a clueless wonder. The whole point is to let the client come to the revelation himself.

    Once the lightbulb goes on, you can explain that "branding" is developing a value-specific identity in the minds of the target market.

    How EVERYTHING they do, say, or show, has to "demonstrate" The Brand.

    And that branding - true Branding - always starts at the point of the sale. And how if they don't know why their customers buy, they have no "brand" in the mind of the customer.

    No matter how slick and shiny their web site, brochure, office space, or company t-shirt is. Or how much it cost them for any or all of the above.

    No value in the mind of the market = No Brand.

    Now, as you've probably already noticed, most prospects/clients have no clue about why people buy their stuff. They often think they do, but very few of them have connected the dots to begin the process where it matters most: At the point of The Sale.

    Worse, most businesses have little to no understanding of why their prospects don't buy. Which is the kind of crucial information good brands know. And use to their advantage.

    At this point, you're making a LOT of sense to this client. Assuming they have a lick of business brains (and if they don't - Oops! Wrong client!).

    Better yet, they're beginning to see how direct response concepts and expertise (that you offer) can HELP them build a brand.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
      Originally Posted by Collette View Post

      Once the lightbulb goes on, you can explain that "branding" is developing a value-specific identity in the minds of the target market.

      How EVERYTHING they do, say, or show, has to "demonstrate" The Brand.
      I agree. Very true -- everything you do is marketing.


      And that branding - true Branding - always starts at the point of the sale.
      I disagree... strongly. True branding starts long before the sale is made -- that's the whole point of it.


      No value in the mind of the market = No Brand.
      Exactly. Value is the key. That's why being cute or clever doesn't work. The problem, of course, is that clients think advertising IS about being clever. It's isn't.

      And that brings us full circle. Again, read Drew Whitman's book for a great example.

      Johnny
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

        ...I disagree... strongly. True branding starts long before the sale is made -- that's the whole point of it.

        ...Exactly. Value is the key. That's why being cute or clever doesn't work. The problem, of course, is that clients think advertising IS about being clever. It's isn't.

        And that brings us full circle. Again, read Drew Whitman's book for a great example.

        Johnny
        If you don't know why your customers buy - i.e. what your value proposition is in their minds - how can you possibly create your brand? How do you 'create' value to your prospects - if you don't know what your prospects consider valuable?

        You MUST begin with the customer.

        First, you have to know what your customers believe you represent to them. Then you can decide if that's what you want to mean to them (your brand).

        Without that 'customer-centric' knowledge you have no true brand. It means nothing to the customer.

        If you want to know what your brand should be - you have to talk to the people who buy your product or service. You have to know what THEY care about.

        You can not build a brand without that information.

        A brand should be created from the outside-in. Not the inside-out. Because A Brand is not something you believe you are. It's what your customers believe you are. And what they believe, is what drives them to buy.

        For example, a bank may believe its brand is "Your Neighborhood Bank".

        But, when they talk to their customers, they discover that the majority of their customers bank with them because they get the best interest rate on their savings account. And that their customers would go to a different bank if the savings rate there was better.

        So, instead of being "Your Neighborhood Bank" (which their customers don't care about), the bank needs to be "Where Your Savings Grow Faster Than Anywhere Else".

        The only way you can get this information is to know why your customers buy. You cannot 'force' a sale by 'creating' a brand.

        So the process of creating a brand begins with knowing why your customers buy. Then you create a brand that reinforces the belief of the marketplace.

        (If you don't like the existing belief of the marketplace about your product or service, then you have to face the fact that you're not meeting their needs. If you want to create a value proposition in that marketplace - something is going to have to change. Hint: it 'ain't the marketplace.)

        Branding is not advertising. Branding is not marketing. Branding is not PR. Branding is not sales.

        Your Brand should support your efforts in all of the above. And all instances of the above should support Your Brand.

        A brand is how the consumer experiences your value. It's about what they see, hear, feel, think, and most importantly, believe.

        For example: Let's say Comfort Plus Sofa Company's has decided that its brand identity is 'We do whatever it takes to help you find a sofa you'll love for life' (weak, I know, but hang with me here).

        The company uses this statement as a tag line in its ads (advertising), flyers (marketing), and in a press release for the Grand Opening of its new store.

        Intrigued by this 'brand promise', you dutifully head on down to your nearest Comfort Plus Sofa Company store.

        You step through the door, and the two clerks behind the sales desk barely register your entrance with the slightest of glances. They do not speak.

        As you browse, another salesperson comes towards you from the back of the store, carrying a lamp. He places the lamp on a display side table and, without catching your eye or acknowledging your presence in any way, pivots and returns to the back of the store.

        Fifteen minutes later, you see the sales person again. Placing yourself directly in his path, you ask about purchasing the red sofa.

        "Oh, we're out of that model." he replies flatly.

        "Is there something similar?" you ask.

        "I don't think so, but you can look around and see if you find anything." he replies.

        ...

        Does this sales experience live up to the promise of The Brand - 'We do whatever it takes to help you find a sofa you'll love for life'? More importantly, does this brand mean diddly-squat to you now?

        Absolutely not.

        And yet, this is a far too common experience. And a classic example of how businesses don't understand what 'branding' is.

        Now, maybe this business doesn't pay their salespeople on commission. Maybe they're barely trained. Maybe,... well maybe there are lots of reasons why these salespeople don't care whether or not you find "a sofa you'll love for life".

        That's not the issue. The issue is that - at the point of sale - there is NO brand.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jay Truman
          Whats the definition of branding? Doesn't every business brand?

          What about positioning? Doesnt your brand evolve out of the positioning of your business/ product?
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          • Profile picture of the author Collette
            Branding and positioning are inextricably linked. Ideally, your brand should articulate your positioning, and your positioning should reflect the core strength of your brand value proposition.

            Branding can be invaluable for clarifying what you offer, who you want to serve, and how you want to serve them.

            Positioning gives your prospect a definitive reason to choose you.

            And they come together in all sorts of small ways.

            For example, if I say my company provides you with elegant catering fit for a King (brand), the only one used for Princess Grace's coronation (positioning), I would be crazy to use a drab grey-brown as my 'brand' signature logo and company color. Or to have my servers show up in their own random jeans and t-shirts instead of a neatly pressed uniform.

            Totally inconsistent.

            Every business, no matter how small, should brand. And here's why:

            A brand articulates your set of core beliefs. It sets you apart and gives your business 'a face'.

            Many businesses think they have a brand, but in fact, they don't. For example, think about the umpteen businesses that say, "We Give Quality Customer Service", but then they can't articulate how they do that, or if 'quality customer service" is what their customers want.

            For example, RyanAir, a super-low-cost European airlines is so no-frills that its now charging passengers to use the rest room. It's extremely unlikely that RyanAir will lose sales as a result. Because RyanAir knows that its passengers care most about flying for the price of a bus ticket.

            (How do they know this? They asked their passengers why they chose to fly RyanAir.)

            On the most basic and personal level, most people have a 'personal brand'. We hold a certain set of core beliefs about ourselves ("I'm fashionable.", "I'm successful.", "I'm a good friend.", etc.). We then try to live our lives in a way that is consistent with "our brand".

            So, if a friend needs a ride home because his car blew up 100 miles away, we'll drive the 100 miles at 2 a.m. on freezing January night to get them out of a bind (wouldn't think of rolling over and going back to sleep!).

            Or, we wouldn't dream of leaving the house in grubby sweats and no makeup (in fact, we don't even own grubby sweats. Only form-fitting designer sweats!).

            Or, when we purchase our new car, we would never choose the sky-blue Dodge over the gun-metal grey Lexus.

            In the end, we want other people to think of us as, "The best friend a guy could have.", or "The most fashionable, well-put-together woman I know."

            Positioning is how we plan to occupy that particular niche of 'mind-space' in the minds of others.

            So, let's say I believe that I am fashionable. I want others to believe that I am the most fashionable woman they know, and that I am, therefore, the coolest person to hang out with. I'm going to do several things to try to occupy that particular 'mind-space' in your consciousness.

            If we use the online marketing model, it would roughly correlate like this:

            - I'm going to say, "Yes, I am fashionable." (landing page)
            - I'm going to wear this season's fashions. Maybe even next season's fashions.(credentials)
            - I am going to make an effort to meet other fashionable people and exchange phone numbers (extend an offer and build a list)
            - I'm going to subscribe to fashion magazines. Visitors to my home will see my magazines and know that I am interested in fashion (forum posts)
            - I'm going to attend fashion shows (marketing seminars for networking),
            - I'm going to go to chic restaurants and bars where other 'fashionable' people are known to go (testimonials)

            And so on.

            But that's not all. I want you to know that I am a fashionable person - who is an expert in shoes.

            So I make sure you know that I own the largest collection of shoes outside of Imelda Marco's closet. And that Manolo has personally asked me for design advice.

            My brand is that I am a fashionable person. Possibly the most fashionable person you know. And therefore the coolest person you can be seen with.

            My positioning is that if you are in the market for a cool, fashion expert who is can give impeccable shoe advice, then - for the reasons I have given you - I'm your obvious choice.

            And my branding is to make sure that everything I do, say, or wear, is consistent with what I tell you I am (i.e. fashionable), and what I tell you I can do for you (i.e. make you cool and give you impeccable shoe advice).

            At its best, good branding is not about stroking your ego. It's about defining, articulating, and providing an authentic experience of the finest qualities and strengths of what you offer.

            When you offer your market that kind of authentic experience, you will make sales.

            This is why someone with an understanding of direct response copywriting can often be very helpful with creating, defining, and articulating a brand.

            And branding doesn't have to be an expensive experience. The family-owned corner deli can brand just as effectively as Coca-Cola.

            It's a matter of defining who you want to reach, and how. The deli wants to reach everyone who wants to eat good food within, say, a 10-block radius. Coca-Cola wants to reach everyone in the known world anywhere they can deliver Coca-Cola.

            It will cost the deli a lot less to create an 'authentic' experience, than it will cost Coke.

            But if the deli has no idea who they're trying to reach, why, how they intend to do it, and what their desired (defined) goal is - they're gonna wind up throwing huge amounts of cash at their so-called 'branding' efforts.
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            • Profile picture of the author John_S
              I'm going to modify what has gone before. I like where Collette is on this topic and agree with the basic gist.

              Gary Bencivenga touches on this with A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen.

              Understand the genius of that phrase and you'll know how Apple can walk into market after market, each saturated with competition, then eat everyone's lunch.

              And, selling it to clients like that (the disease of market vulnerability), you have the chance of turning a copy gig into a marketing strategy stream of income. Other companies brand a design. (inside out) Apple brands through design (outside in).

              What you can do is...

              ....Develop invoices that shrink receivables and get customers to pay on time.
              ....Create a closer message-to-market match which produces more sales.
              ....Multiply word-of-mouth and lifetime customer value to skyrocket profits.
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              • Profile picture of the author Collette
                Exactly!

                Apple goes to people who already buy computers (buyers) and finds out what THEY consider important.

                Then Apple goes off and 'creates' it.

                Result: Apple has a killer 'brand' and an extremely loyal fan base.

                Microsoft? Not so much. Their engineers create what they think people should want.

                The result? Windows Vista. And no XP any more. And a new Windows that is "Vista-but-better". In spite of the fact that their users tell them differently.

                Lots of people are using Windows because they feel they have to, or because it came pre-loaded. Not because they necessarily want to.

                That is NOT a good brand image.

                And Gary Bencivenga is 100% right. A good product is created for the people who will use it.

                Which means that, if you know what people want (because they've demonstrated their desire by buying), and you can provide that thing (through what you offer and how you offer it), building a brand around bringing those two together is a snap.

                P.S. Just consider - for a moment - how much money Microsoft has spent trying to change people's perception of (the brand) Windows Vista. How much easier would their life have been if they had developed from the outside-in?
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                • Profile picture of the author John_S
                  Apple is the "good" or effective kind of branding. The other kind of branding is the stuff direct response types make fun of as ineffective.

                  They're right. But also very wrong.

                  A missing piece of the puzzle is a certain kind of designer who can do this sort of thing. Essentially, I sell copywriting here. But my site is about just this kind of design support of marketing/copywriting.

                  Read How Direct Marketing and User Experience Are the Same Perhaps not the same, but not antithetical as traditional graphic artistry and direct response.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Collette View Post

                  The result? Windows Vista. And no XP any more. And a new Windows that is "Vista-but-better". In spite of the fact that their users tell them differently.
                  I was on the Vista team.

                  That's my product you're insulting.

                  Let me assure you, Microsoft spend five billion dollars a year on product usability research. We didn't make stuff up and pretend people wanted it. We knew they wanted it.

                  Just like when users say "I hate pop-ups," we still put them on sales pages, because the numbers don't lie: pop-ups convert. You can bitch all you want about how much you hate pop-ups, but as long as you keep filling them in, you're going to keep getting them.

                  Likewise, all the things we did to make Vista what it is were things you wanted. Not things you said you wanted, but things you really wanted. Things that save you five minutes here, and ten minutes there, and make your applications run just a little bit faster and more reliably. You might bitch and whinge and complain about how Vista isn't as good as XP, but in the end, you get your job done faster and easier.

                  We didn't care what you said, any more than you care when people say they hate pop-ups. The proof is in the numbers. Pop-ups convert, and Vista gets the job done. The simple reality is that people do not know what the hell they want, and you can't ask them. It's not about words - actions speak louder than, and we really knew what people really did on Windows.

                  Which is really the only thing that matters.
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                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author Collette
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    I was on the Vista team.

                    That's my product you're insulting...
                    Sorry that you took it personally. It wasn't meant that way.

                    But as John_S pointed out, useability doesn't guarantee desireability.

                    The end result - unfortunately for Microsoft - is the consumer perception that Microsoft isn't listening. That Microsoft is 'ramming' systems they want to sell down the throats of consumers.

                    That perception may not be accurate. It may be unfortunate. But it's a 'brand' perception that exists.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    These are all such intelligent, well-reasoned responses. This
    is helping me think more clearly about this issue.

    Thank you all.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Go Collette!

    That was beautifully articulated. Far better job than I could possibly do trying to say the same thing.

    +1
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by Collette View Post

    And that branding - true Branding - always starts at the point of the sale.
    I agree with the bulk of what you wrote. But I still disagree (and just as strongly) with the statement you made (see above).

    As I said, branding is simple. It's about being "first in mind" when a given need, want, or desire arises. The Apple iPod is a fine example. People don't buy it because of a decision made "at the point of sale." Properly done, branding starts long before that time.

    The goal of all branding is to build brand preference so that the iPod, for example, becomes not only the best choice -- but the only choice in the prospect's mind.

    However, I admit that I'm very impressed by your voluminous posts.

    Johnny
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    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      It's about being "first in mind" when a given need, want, or desire arises.
      Easily said, yes. Easy to do? Well, take a look of the dead and buried iWhatever killers.

      Whenever you define your product or service by the other guy's brand, you take a big risk, mindshare-wise. iPhone killers and iPod killers give Apple the high ground, they aren't doing what Apple did in establishing a new high ground.

      And this also flies in the face of what a lot of IMers do, which is knock off a product and look to the copywriter to sprinkle magic NLP Hypnotic Fairy Dust on the letter to make people buy their product.

      The lesson of this is: If it ain't in the product, the copywriter ain't puttin' it in the letter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      I agree with the bulk of what you wrote. But I still disagree (and just as strongly) with the statement you made (see above).

      As I said, branding is simple. It's about being "first in mind" when a given need, want, or desire arises. The Apple iPod is a fine example. People don't buy it because of a decision made "at the point of sale." Properly done, branding starts long before that time.

      Johnny
      Let me rephrase the 'POS' concept: The only way you know what people will buy is to know what they already bought (the previous POS).

      Apple did not 'create' an iPod brand out of thin air. They did NOT make the product first, and then try to create a desire for it.

      That way lies madness. And bankruptcy.

      First they figured out what the market wanted. They looked at people who were already using portable playback devices (i.e. buyers of portable playback devices). They looked at what desires these devices were NOT meeting. They listened when users said, "I wish my (device) could do ..."

      And then they created the iPod.

      The desire for the iPod existed before the iPod existed.

      The buyers of iPods did not make their decision at the moment they bought the iPod. They already wanted the iPod. All they were waiting for was someone to make it.

      And Apple was happy to oblige.

      Apple made sure, based on the buying decisions these buyers had already made in the past - the previous POS - that the buying decision for the iPod was a done deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Many customers do not understand the difference between a cute web site and a money generating web site.... I have had this conversation with a web site designer in my area... he told me that my web sites suck because they don't look slick.. and I told him how much money they make and he said that he could never believe that the kind of ugly websites I have make soooo much money
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    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      Likewise, all the things we did to make Vista what it is were things you wanted. Not things you said you wanted, but things you really wanted.
      Formal usability tests in a lab setting are an excellent tool to evaluate whether users can complete tasks; however, the technique has not been as effective for measuring intangible aspects of the user experience such as "fun," "enjoyment," or whether the product is desirable enough to purchase.

      --Measuring Desirability: New methods for evaluating desirability in a usability lab setting Joey Benedek and Trish Miner; Microsoft
      I'm familiar with desirability design. First rule: Don't listen to what users say, watch what they do. This too is where branding often fails -- few know how to test.

      More than a few prefer branding be untestable; most notable among them branders.

      Usability isn't enough for branding. You need other methodologies like what Joey Benedek is doing at Microsoft.

      Users are notoriously bad at telling developers what they would buy. But there are ways to get that information out of them. Usability doesn't offer those techniques.

      Usability is a hygienic factor; you get demerits for not being usable but no marketing bonus points when hygienic factors are there. As Chris Rock might say: "Products are supposed to be usable."

      Developers, like the Chris Rock bit on people looking for a pat on the back for not being on drugs, should wake up. Usability is a given. Desirability isn't.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hugh Thyer
        A lot has been said about branding in large businesses.

        But we're talking about small to medium sized businesses here. They're our target market generally (although not exclusively).

        And I agree with some of the earlier posters that you're wasting your time trying to 'educate' people who are hell bent on branding. They're only going to delete your headline, put their logo on top and bitch and moan to you when they dont make any sales.

        Its far easier to work with people who understand direct response marketing. The goal for copywriters should be to get established with big clients who understand what we do and why it works. Teaching direct response to the 'brand-obsessed' is like feeding caviar to pigs.

        If you end up getting into a branding versus direct response argument, odds are this person is not the client for you.

        BUT! I will say this. Branding IS important in all businesses. But its not branding the way we often think about it. Its the reason people come back. Think about the regular posters on this forum. Some are polite. Some are knowledgeable. Some frequently post great advise. Our personalities are our own personal brand. The way we deal with clients, and the way they react is our own person brand.

        Some businesses are built on fun, or great service or value. These things stick in people's minds, and while they're not a fancy logo or a clever slogan, still represent their brand. And this brand is worth developing and protecting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Truman
    Wow, alot has been said on branding.

    Would it be correct in saying branding creates associations in ones mind? Coke-a-Cola and soda. Kraft and cheese. Xerox and photo-copies. Ipod and MP3 player.

    I've heard people say "Hey can you xerox that for me". Xerox is a brand/trademark and they effectively "replaced" the word photo-copy with xerox, there brand/trademark.

    A while ago I was reading up on branding and they recommended using archetypes when creating a brand. They also recommend the book "The Hero and the Outlaw: building Extraordinary Brands Through the Power of Archetypes".

    In Harley Davidson case they would represent the "outlaw".

    Frank Kern talks about this. He recommends "the hero", "us vs. them" (could be considered the outlaws?), and "home town boy makes good" would be the "regular guy/gal".

    Would Frank Kern/Mass Control be considered his own brand?

    any thoughts?
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by Jay Truman View Post

      ...Would Frank Kern/Mass Control be considered his own brand?

      any thoughts?
      Kern is an excellent example of how, no matter the size of your business, you can create a brand that resonates to your market.

      People associate a certain kind of service, product, and image with Kern. Because his branding is consistent. For example, when did you ever see a Frank Kern video where he was wearing a suit and tie? Not part of his 'brand'.

      If you look at all the big IMers, they ALL have a brand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Most direct marketers hit branding because of the lack of accountability
    of the advertisement. There's no way of measuring success from such
    ads. Ad agencies can get away by creating ads that don't give any
    results because no one can really measure the results.

    On another level every businesses is being branded whether they like
    it or not. Your brand is like your reputation and we all have one. One of
    the options I have for my form at my website to; 'What do you want to
    accomplish?" is 'branding' and no one ever selected that option. Maybe I
    just need to remove this option.

    As far as most small businesses are concerned, you can't eat 'brand'.

    -Ray Edwards
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