$15,000.00 a seat seminars. Secret societies of persuasion AND

by gjabiz
21 replies
...CopyWriting too!

Glenn Osborn is a WF member, not much of a visitor/poster, but master COPYWRITER none the less. He recently told the story of how he BARTERED for a 15k seminar. The barter part is significant only because it reinforces the premise...

money is a vehicle of exchange, but not the only one. Trading copywriting for things has been around forever. I bartered for a new computer system and a library in exchange for some writing projects. BUT, the barter part is just a bonus.

Glenn is a successful copywriter and marketer with his unIqUe style and unuSuaL presentations, and one of the most skilled in using NLP in his copy.

To that end, he spends thousands a year on KNOWLEDGE and attending 15k dollar seminars. Contrast that with some of the recent posters here whom want it all for FREE. Maybe Knowledge pays? And the good stuff, real life from the trenches and presented privately behind closed doors is what gives the top 1% it's massive success.

What IS discussed at such meetings? Well, one thing is the size of the pupil and the limbal ring, which is easily photoshopped.

The gist of advanced persuasion technique is the search for the Holy Grail keys of AUTO RESPONSE. But anyhow...

for Copywriters:

When you sit down to write your copy, you should have a person in a group (some call it an avatar, a customer profile, target, etc., etc.) in mind and understand a few basics.

They are NOT sitting around waiting for you to sell them something.

You and your promotion, in whatever form, are an INTERRUPTION in their day, you have briefly broken through their PREOCCUPATION.

When you have the KNOWLEDGE, which some pay 15k, and others have PAID up to 250,000 dollars to obtain, you understand what these preoccupations are and you construct your promotion to resonate with these top of the mind or easily accessed sub-conscious desires, some say enter the conversation taking place in their head.

Although I think of a promotion like a phone call, which if answered, gives you a few short seconds to alter their conversation to match your whatever, it goes better for you.

Magic words only work if you know why.

And this has become a very apparent lack here and across the Internet when it comes to copywriting, a seemingly unwillingness to learn the foundation, the building blocks of persuasion and influence as evidenced weekly here by some "copywriter" asking HOW to get clients.

I guess they haven't figured out HOW to create copy for their services, or whom to get it in front of. Why?

Why do they call themselves copywriters?

Now, those of you secret society membership, give me the high sign, ok?

gjabiz

PS. NO, the other finger.
#$15 #persuasion #seat #secret #seminars #societies
  • Profile picture of the author ajwalton99
    Yes, barter is always better.

    And thanks for this, I'm glad
    people like you still post
    on this board.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10215985].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Memetics
      Interesting stuff, I would argue that the fruit at the very top of the persuasion tree is not for sale at any price. Knowledge becomes more valuable the fewer amount of other people possess the same information.

      Some methods do indeed trickle down to us plebs but the best stuff is kept strictly under wraps which means you have to reverse engineer different methods you do come across to break into the top 0.001% of the persuasion community.

      There are "auto response" methods out there but they need very strong emotions and beliefs in the target to work properly, and even then they can backfire and do the opposite to what you intended.
      Signature

      First we believe.....then we consider.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216025].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        The "fruit" at the top is forbidden, but we can be aware of it's existence and aware the upper echelons are using it on us.

        I want to sell bags of salted peanuts at the ball game and have my associate follow a few minutes later with ice cold beer. More peanuts=more cold drinks, sugar or of a hops variety, just as long as I'm in the right park.

        This election year will teach us "plebes" a thing or two about the twisting, turning and manipulations of technique and methodology of persuasion ATTEMPTS.

        Getting a client for your "good/great copywriting skills" should be as simple as writing a letter, one might think anyhow.

        I prefer on the ground fruit, ripe and ready without the exertion of picking.

        gjabiz


        Originally Posted by Memetics View Post

        Interesting stuff, I would argue that the fruit at the very top of the persuasion tree is not for sale at any price. Knowledge becomes more valuable the fewer amount of other people possess the same information.

        Some methods do indeed trickle down to us plebs but the best stuff is kept strictly under wraps which means you have to reverse engineer different methods you do come across to break into the top 0.001% of the persuasion community.

        There are "auto response" methods out there but they need very strong emotions and beliefs in the target to work properly, and even then they can backfire and do the opposite to what you intended.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216133].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Memetics
          Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

          This election year will teach us "plebes" a thing or two about the twisting, turning and manipulations of technique and methodology of persuasion ATTEMPTS.
          Very true, even the most sanguine of us get a buzz of excitement to what's coming. There's a lot of talk and conjecture but nothing concrete at the moment.
          Signature

          First we believe.....then we consider.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216263].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 1fisherman
    Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

    ...CopyWriting too!

    And this has become a very apparent lack here and across the Internet when it comes to copywriting, a seemingly unwillingness to learn the foundation, the building blocks of persuasion and influence as evidenced weekly here by some "copywriter" asking HOW to get clients.
    For those of us with the willingness to learn... what are the BEST resources to start learning the foundation and building blocks?

    Thanks in advance,
    Gregg

    As a side note: I woke up today wondering how I was going to learn more about persuasion. Thanks for the post.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216294].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by 1fisherman View Post

      For those of us with the willingness to learn... what are the BEST resources to start learning the foundation and building blocks?

      Thanks in advance,
      Gregg

      As a side note: I woke up today wondering how I was going to learn more about persuasion. Thanks for the post.
      Ah Cool.

      I would encourage you to start with daily bouts of Conscious Awareness, and to keep track on a small notebook you carry around of the day's events.

      What is your daily routine? Let's say most people have a job.

      They often forget they raised their hand and were chosen. AND accepted the conditions of time, place and activity in exchange for a paycheck. In the USA, about 50 hours+ a week is given to the earning of that paycheck, which means 50+ hours of time was WILLINGLY traded.

      So, the time you get up, where you go, who you are around is decided for you.

      When it comes to persuasion and influence, you need to see the big picture. During the next week, make little notes throughout the day, play a game. Can you read a person's mind? If you have a boss, can you predict his/her behavior, tone, activities? How do people express their joy or happiness or good news?

      Does your Barista smile or is she grumpy today? Can you give her a big smile tomorrow like a long lost friend, and say, "I was thinking about trying something new today", and then order the exact same drink, with a smile on your face. Can you PERSUADE her to return your mischievous twinkle?

      You are ON your way to mastering this stuff.

      Here are your first lessons. Using a Maslow Pyramid from Google Images, one with five areas, can you guess what is any given person thinking?

      Knowing that throughout your day, everyone is preoccupied on two levels, their immediate task, and/or a subconscious thought or exterior thought unrelated to the task. Example, if a co-worker has a sick kid at home, or there has been a death in the family, that is going to be heavy on their mind.

      So, it begins by KNOWING and understanding, WHAT is on your mind...what are YOU preoccupied with NOW...then via Maslow for a beginner, what are the Primary preoccupations on all of our minds, and then have a clear idea of how and why you want to influence a person, and then you begin to get inside her mind, with the so called resonating emotion, or as you join her in her inner conversation, you can begin to construct your

      Attention Preoccupation breaking device
      Interest because she is NOW thinking that
      Perhaps desire, or curiosity aroused
      A conclusion she would
      LIKE to have
      An exchange of value if called for
      Satisfaction with the exchange.

      Start with giving away a smile, a friendly ear, non judgmental understanding and sympathy.

      All with the purpose of learning how to become a better person...so you persuade and influence with mutual benefit...and you'll be there in no time...

      in my opinion.

      Awareness of what is going on around you, in the media, who is pulling the strings...coupled with a clear vision of what you want
      the other person to do
      Why? And to the benefit of you both (her benefit first) is a good starting point.

      gjabiz

      PS. If you need more copy oriented "advice", will be glad to go that direction. Good copywriters are good salesman because they instinctively get or have studied human behavior.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216357].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author 1fisherman
        Thanks Gordon,

        Yes, I would like more copy oriented "advice" as my goal is to first become a GOOD copywriter.

        That aside, I appreciate the information and exercises. I'm sure I'll learn a lot and have a lot of fun with it.

        I have to say, I'm much more aware of who is pulling the strings since I have begun studying copywriting, although I'm not always sure what their desired outcome is.

        I am also more aware of my own emotional response in a variety of different situations. I believe that awareness will go a long way toward improving my skill.

        I view developing the skill of persuasion as a process and you have given me a good base to start from.

        Thanks again,

        Gregg
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216412].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
          Surveys over the last few years show more and more Americans are hating their jobs, and most of those, it is about their boss.

          Trapped in the rat race. 40 years ago, these headlines created fortunes:

          Out of the Rat Race and Into the Chips by Hubert Simon
          Ohio Man Discovers the Secret of How to Escape the American Rat Race by Ben Suarez
          The Lazy Man's Way to Riches by Joe Karbo
          $100,00.00 in 90 Days by Dean F.V. DuVall

          40 years ago only a third hated their jobs, but many were seeking more money.

          These were headlines in newspapers and magazines.

          Today, the WF banner ad reads:
          Make 153.50 Per Sale on autopilot learn how

          40 years ago ads ran...How to Pick Up Girls. Seen anything like that lately?

          Money. Bottom of Maslow's pyramid. Low fruit for those in Biz-Op.
          Self fulfillment, top of Maslow. Pay 10 grand to go to a sweat lodge and if you don't die, you'll find the authentic self.

          The appeals are basic. Know human needs and wants and address the HOW.

          NO, you don't need advanced techniques, you could just make a big promise, take their money and hope they don't catch you. Bernie Madoff lived high off the hog for years, as did Kevin Trudeau, Don LaPre, et al.

          Getting people to give you money is as easy as a piece of cardboard, a marker and a street corner.

          Want to see big promises? Visit WSO section, although greatly tamed down these days.

          Have a product people want? Not much selling involved. Visit your local 7-11 any Friday afternoon to see the beer, booze and tobacco flying off the shelves. Local pill pushers and dope dealers have a supply problem, not a demand problem.

          If you have a "great list and a target market" plus you "make it worth their while", what you say to them is probably take it or leave it.

          Lacking either or both of those, top copywriters never stop learning, and pursue knowledge their whole life, whereas as a WSO specialist is probably doing just fine BECAUSE he knows his market.

          Open your swipe file, open a Maslow pyramid and try to identify the primary needs/wants the copy writer is talking to. Maybe you'll have a light bulb moment.

          Targeted eyeballs for good product made "irresistible" and BAM, you've done it, made a buck. Rather make a fortune? Study and apply, perfect and scale.

          gjabiz

          Originally Posted by 1fisherman View Post

          Thanks Gordon,

          Yes, I would like more copy oriented "advice" as my goal is to first become a GOOD copywriter.

          That aside, I appreciate the information and exercises. I'm sure I'll learn a lot and have a lot of fun with it.

          I have to say, I'm much more aware of who is pulling the strings since I have begun studying copywriting, although I'm not always sure what their desired outcome is.

          I am also more aware of my own emotional response in a variety of different situations. I believe that awareness will go a long way toward improving my skill.

          I view developing the skill of persuasion as a process and you have given me a good base to start from.

          Thanks again,

          Gregg
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216721].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Eh -- I'm a skeptic when it comes to all this "forbidden fruit" "secrets of persuasion" stuff that makes it sound like the effect is automatic, and people can be almost mechanically manipulated.

    If it were true, there would be a runaway effect by now... and it wouldn't be easy to keep these secrets "forbidden" for long.

    The biggest "secret" of persuasion is having a great list & target market. (That's why even lawyers like to pick the jury...)

    Even then, only a fraction of your list is likely to respond. Your job as a marketer is to make sure that fraction of the response is enough to profit you.

    And the copywriter's job? Well, if 2% response is enough to make you a profit, great copy might double that 2% to 4%... Doubling your profit. That's the copywriter's job.

    There are no dark, hidden secrets of persuasion that turn humans into automatons. There may be some humans that are almost automatons, but that's not everyone.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216316].message }}
  • This might be simple but I've found it to be true.

    If you want to ethically "persuade" anybody here's what you have to do.

    MAKE it worth their WHILE.

    In other words the "action" you want them to take is SO irresistible.

    They HAVE to do it.


    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216326].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      This might be simple but I've found it to be true.

      If you want to ethically "persuade" anybody here's what you have to do.

      MAKE it worth their WHILE.

      In other words the "action" you want them to take is SO irresistible.

      They HAVE to do it.

      Steve
      Well said Steve... and you only used 47 words to do it!

      A surprising dearth of persuasion tactics are needed when the offer is clear, irresistible, and easy to buy.

      Alex
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216905].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

    You and your promotion, in whatever form, are an INTERRUPTION in their day, you have briefly broken through their PREOCCUPATION.
    Not always.

    Maybe when marketers are trying to sell crap that nobody wants unless they're tricked into buying it.

    But a significant percentage of buyers are actively looking for a real solution to their very pressing problem.

    Alex
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10216893].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Crap is ?????

      Significant % of buyers of WHAT, everything?

      A real solution to a pressing problem probably needs little to NO copy whatsoever, but not always.

      Not Always Alex, not always.


      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Not always.

      Maybe when marketers are trying to sell crap that nobody wants unless they're tricked into buying it.

      But a significant percentage of buyers are actively looking for a real solution to their very pressing problem.

      Alex
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10217039].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Shelles
    I wonder what 'jedi ninja tricks' he learnt at a 15k seminar!

    Magic words only work if you know why.

    And this has become a very apparent lack here and across the Internet when it comes to copywriting, a seemingly unwillingness to learn the foundation, the building blocks of persuasion and influence as evidenced weekly here by some "copywriter" asking HOW to get clients.
    NLP is such a fascinating subject and I agree, there doesn't seem to be many copywriters who are actually using it (to it's full potential), or understand why 'the magic' works.

    Are you a copywriter? NLP practitioner?

    I studied NLP a few years ago, it was focused on spoken techniques/strategies and I was wondering how you approach NLP in sales copy? Is there a particular structure?

    (Actually, I started a thread asking this question earlier this morning: Success Using NLP Hypnotic Writing?.

    I'm keen to hear about your experience with persuasion.

    Shelle
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10220599].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Glenn Osborn's enchantednlp is fun and it works for his target market.

      Harlan does have the academic background.

      My opinion, most copywriters who sell NLP copy services really don't offer the "success" you seek from the NLP secrets.

      Great copywriters are good story tellers, have an innate understanding of people, many have cut their teeth on face to face selling...

      Knowing your target, understanding the market, good products, good offers and good intersections are more practical ways to get better results than the often haphazard application of NLP (or any psychological) methodologies and techniques.

      NLP has been a questioned study since it's beginning.

      I would prefer a copywriter start with something like the Blair Warren report, Forbidden Keys, and build off of that.

      In the Bonjour post, I stated that selling Instant Relief to a person with constipation does not require much copy, bright red letters on yellow background which screams "buy me" from the shelf is all that is needed.

      Knowing your customer, or your prospect...and delivering what they are seeking is a good place to start.

      IF your target is the "vicarian" or "librarian", who buys as much for entertainment as for application...then a name brand works as well as the copy.

      There are people here, who have spent thousands of dollars on marketing and/or copywriting courses who grasp the idea, the KNOWLEDGE, without having done anything.

      The college professor who teaches marketing, who has never sold a thing in his life, is an example of a "librarian" type.

      Fortunes are made selling to these people.

      And my opinion on NLP copywriting courses is... these are vicarian buyers, few have the skill to apply what they learn.

      But, I could be wrong.

      I think your clients are better served when you have a full grasp of what their product does for their target market, and you get that across quickly at the intersection of your copy and the target's search.

      gjabiz

      PS. As for 15k seminars, they don't even come close to some of the closed door, invitational seminars held in mountain retreats. Even 100,000 dollar seminars may be useless due to the attendee's lack of application. But, they have great libraries.


      Originally Posted by Shelles View Post

      I wonder what 'jedi ninja tricks' he learnt at a 15k seminar!



      NLP is such a fascinating subject and I agree, there doesn't seem to be many copywriters who are actually using it (to it's full potential), or understand why 'the magic' works.

      Are you a copywriter? NLP practitioner?

      I studied NLP a few years ago, it was focused on spoken techniques/strategies and I was wondering how you approach NLP in sales copy? Is there a particular structure?

      (Actually, I started a thread asking this question earlier this morning: Success Using NLP Hypnotic Writing?.

      I'm keen to hear about your experience with persuasion.

      Shelle
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221217].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Shelles
        Thanks for your opinion gjabiz, you make some some thought provoking points and I will look into enchantednlp and Forbidden Keys.

        I haven't done any NLP copywriting courses so I also can't comment on how good they (or any of them,) are... Although I have listened to a few IM courses where the hosts have tried to include NLP language, however it was clear they were reading from a piece of paper in front of them so the prestige was lost.. for me anyway.

        I think your clients are better served when you have a full grasp of what their product does for their target market, and you get that across quickly at the intersection of your copy and the target's search.
        Yes, I completely agree, NLP or not, at the core, you need to understand your market in order to sell to them!

        Shelle

        P.S, do tell! I can't say I've ever even heard of a 100k seminar!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221370].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Memetics
          Originally Posted by Shelles View Post

          Thanks for your opinion gjabiz, you make some some thought provoking points and I will look into enchantednlp and Forbidden Keys.

          I haven't done any NLP copywriting courses so I also can't comment on how good they (or any of them,) are... Although I have listened to a few IM courses where the hosts have tried to include NLP language, however it was clear they were reading from a piece of paper in front of them so the prestige was lost.. for me anyway.



          Yes, I completely agree, NLP or not, at the core, you need to understand your market in order to sell to them!

          Shelle

          P.S, do tell! I can't say I've ever even heard of a 100k seminar!

          Buy a good book on evolutionary psychology and another on introductory neuroscience.

          Once you have read and understood why people act the way they do, then you can apply NLP, hypnotic writing to the equation. The knowledge is out there if you can put the pieces together.
          Signature

          First we believe.....then we consider.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221545].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Shelles
            Buy a good book on evolutionary psychology and another on introductory neuroscience.

            Once you have read and understood why people act the way they do, then you can apply NLP, hypnotic writing to the equation. The knowledge is out there if you can put the pieces together.
            Thanks Memetics.

            I have studied NLP before but conversational... when you are face to face with somebody you can use body language, tonality as well as being able to see theirs.

            I'm sure there are techniques that would work particularly well for NLP in the written form that may not be as effective when spoken or vice-versa.

            There is definitely more info out there on NLP copy these days, I am surprised it isn't that popular in the IM world, but it is on the rise.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221787].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
          Originally Posted by Shelles View Post


          P.S, do tell! I can't say I've ever even heard of a 100k seminar!
          A- Investors, Stock
          B- Lobbyists
          C- International Trade
          D- Venture Capital
          E- Trade secrets
          F- Multiple Franchise Investors

          They are not intended for the general public, so, unless you are in the target market, it would be rare for anyone to know about them.

          Although, I believe it was Joe Sugarman who operated a 25 k retreat, and Jay Abraham had a fairly high ticket program too.

          Donald Trump allegedly had one for RE Investors, but I wasn't invited to that one.

          gjabiz

          PS. Buying political influence is a big business, which makes Trump so unique in politics, he's used to buying politicians, not being one.

          Also, business consultants for Asia, routinely can get 100k from a business wanting to hook up with a production or manufacturing company, and they regard it as a cheap investment too.

          AND, if you'd like to attend one, I'll set up one just for you...for 100k, I'll even include air fare and hotel and a couple of meals at McDonalds too...it will be one of a kind...HA!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221585].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Shelles
            AND, if you'd like to attend one, I'll set up one just for you...for 100k, I'll even include air fare and hotel and a couple of meals at McDonalds too...it will be one of a kind...HA!
            Oooh so tempting, haha

            Interesting stuff.

            I've seen a few things in the news recently talking about a rise in the 'super wealthy' in particular locations around the world (London and India) and their extravagant spending habits ie. $300 a cup for that 'poo' coffee... I'm sure you know the one. One woman spoke of her chef singing to her salmon and how it makes it taste better... lol.. I wonder if marketing 'super' high ticket products/services will be the next trend!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221762].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author aigbehi1
    are you going to be putting money into peoples paypal account? just asking.
    Signature
    the easy way to make money online is here now. it will cost you an initial investment of $670 and $500 monthly maintanence. pm me if interested.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10221375].message }}

Trending Topics