State of the Art: Copywriting a D.

by gjabiz
40 replies
I could be wrong with this opinion.

I think those people who really want to become copywriters, do so. In less than 3 years, much faster for the motivated.

But, from what I've seen, this may be only 1 in 10 who state they want to become a freelance copywriter.

Which is why I give the State of the Art, an overall grade of D, for Dismal.

There are a few dozen A list copywriters, a few score of B's, a few hundred C's (which could be all one needs to make a decent living) and a whole ton, a boatload, a crap pile of thousands of D(ismal) copywriters.

There are no governors on how good you can become, no one is denying your talent, if you demonstrate it.

But finding good, even mediocre copywriters has become harder and harder, in spite of the sheer number rising like the full moon tide.

I got a call from an Old Boss, asking me to find him a few copywriters. I gave him the name of 3 Warriors I thought might fit his bill.

The problem is, they are pretty booked up, from what they say. In fact, most of the better copywriters here are unavailable for quick or fast work.

But, I could be wrong. Maybe those mills like AWAI are grinding out copywriters like pop stars.

Maybe, the Freelance Copywriters, which can actually sell something, number into the thousands and I just haven't been exposed to them yet.

Even here, where we at least we had some skilled contributors in the not too distant past, has fallen a grade or two....

probably because they are busy writing copy and have very little time for the Chinese Water Drip torture this forum has become.

But, maybe the world, the Internet, the state of everything has fallen too, but, it sure would be nice to find some actual copywriters buried in the hay stack mixed with the horse manure.

Anyhow, my opinion is, NOT everyone who thinks they can become a copywriter...CAN.

But, I do like to watch the talent shows, like AGT, BGT, and even the soon to be defunct Amercan Idol...my favs are the delusioned folks who just know they have what it takes.

This girl, Rachel, is now a copywriter.

https://youtu.be/a3jo-QP9AKM

gjabiz
#art #copywriting #state
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  • Ha!

    That is the last time I look in a mirror an' behold the world's most arrogant harpy.
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff together.

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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Nice post Gordon.

      I think the industry has seen a flood of new copywriters (thanks to AWAI and other home-study courses) entering at the same time as a lot of top-talent are retiring. Retiring from freelance work to focus on their own info-product business. Or retiring completely.

      Only time will tell us what percentage of the new(er) copywriters will rise to the upper ranks. If it's like any of the other industries I've been part of (personal training, physical therapy, massage therapy) in the past, it will be a very small percentage. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to rise to the upper ranks of any field and stay there. Not everyone is willing to make that level of commitment to success.
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      • Profile picture of the author mrjackpowers
        Amen. In every industry, there are those who win BIG, and those who struggle. The difference seems to be in HOW they go about it. How hungry they are. How hard they're willing to work. Whether they can negotiate the fees they're worth. I think a lot of people get into copywriting thinking it'll be easy if they just know how to write.
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Ha!

      That is the last time I look in a mirror an' behold the world's most arrogant harpy.
      Whilst perusing a yard sale, behind the castle walls, I saw the mirror, used, by an Evil Queen, and the mirror spoke to my heart, I guess, in the same way a
      prophet might hear the voice of his god...

      And it said, I was the fairest of them all.

      This, before I put on my pink Tutu and danced with the sugar plum fairies of my mind.

      So, I'm believing my mirror, you believe yours, fair enough?

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author jakedenver
    You lost me at "I could be wrong."
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by jakedenver View Post

      You lost me at "I could be wrong."
      the sight of my WF handle. So, you made it further than most. THANKS.

      gjabiz
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  • Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

    Whilst perusing a yard sale, behind the castle walls, I saw the mirror, used, by an Evil Queen, and the mirror spoke to my heart, I guess, in the same way a
    prophet might hear the voice of his god...

    And it said, I was the fairest of them all.

    This, before I put on my pink Tutu and danced with the sugar plum fairies of my mind.

    So, I'm believing my mirror, you believe yours, fair enough?

    gjabiz
    Worst kinda nightmare happens when two people hold up their mirrors face to face an' their reflections strike up a secret pact.

    Thing is, the internet has produced a demand for media types of all persuasions an' freed workers to work remotely, an' this process is really ridin' on an exponential right now.

    Gotta figure there is gonna be a massive increase in demand for words, images & narrative, jus' so we don't all get sucked into a vacuum.

    That is when a Tutu comes in handy.

    If you gotta breaststroke through the swill, it pays to don aerodynamic clothing suffused with a glitzy aura.
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Worst kinda nightmare happens when two people hold up their mirrors face to face an' their reflections strike up a secret pact.

      Thing is, the internet has produced a demand for media types of all persuasions an' freed workers to work remotely, an' this process is really ridin' on an exponential right now.

      Gotta figure there is gonna be a massive increase in demand for words, images & narrative, jus' so we don't all get sucked into a vacuum.

      That is when a Tutu comes in handy.

      If you gotta breaststroke through the swill, it pays to don aerodynamic clothing suffused with a glitzy aura.
      If the market is paying, then who am I to say anything. Glad I'm finishing and not starting.

      Go forth. Sell thy words, today, a sucker is born every nano second...and a minute later he finds the WF.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author DABK
    It's not despite the great numbers but because of it.

    And like Princess B said, the barrier to entry into many fields is lower, so the ones needing copywriters, there's more of them, and not all of them really know or care to know good copywriting: it (whatever it is they sell) sells enough with poor copy for them to make more than what they made when they had a 9-5 job, so they're so happy they can't even dream that a good copywriter can double or quadruple their income.

    It went from something like this:

    5 women in the middle of a football field; 20 men in the benches and you, looking for the most beautiful woman in the football field

    to

    20k women in a football field, one on top on another; 30k men looking for an ok-ish or better woman. You're still looking for the most beautiful one... (Hint... She's the 274th from the left, burried 3 down.)



    Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

    I could be wrong with this opinion.

    I think those people who really want to become copywriters, do so. In less than 3 years, much faster for the motivated.

    But, from what I've seen, this may be only 1 in 10 who state they want to become a freelance copywriter.

    Which is why I give the State of the Art, an overall grade of D, for Dismal.

    There are a few dozen A list copywriters, a few score of B's, a few hundred C's (which could be all one needs to make a decent living) and a whole ton, a boatload, a crap pile of thousands of D(ismal) copywriters.

    There are no governors on how good you can become, no one is denying your talent, if you demonstrate it.

    But finding good, even mediocre copywriters has become harder and harder, in spite of the sheer number rising like the full moon tide.

    I got a call from an Old Boss, asking me to find him a few copywriters. I gave him the name of 3 Warriors I thought might fit his bill.

    The problem is, they are pretty booked up, from what they say. In fact, most of the better copywriters here are unavailable for quick or fast work.

    But, I could be wrong. Maybe those mills like AWAI are grinding out copywriters like pop stars.

    Maybe, the Freelance Copywriters, which can actually sell something, number into the thousands and I just haven't been exposed to them yet.

    Even here, where we at least we had some skilled contributors in the not too distant past, has fallen a grade or two....

    probably because they are busy writing copy and have very little time for the Chinese Water Drip torture this forum has become.

    But, maybe the world, the Internet, the state of everything has fallen too, but, it sure would be nice to find some actual copywriters buried in the hay stack mixed with the horse manure.

    Anyhow, my opinion is, NOT everyone who thinks they can become a copywriter...CAN.

    But, I do like to watch the talent shows, like AGT, BGT, and even the soon to be defunct Amercan Idol...my favs are the delusioned folks who just know they have what it takes.

    This girl, Rachel, is now a copywriter.

    https://youtu.be/a3jo-QP9AKM

    gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Meh. I don't care about the Ds.

    I'm over here working my ass off to get to A.
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      I reject one of the premises of this discussion - that there is one roster of who is best and all the rest are obviously pretenders and losers.

      There are tons and tons of successful and very skilled freelance copywriters who would never appear on the radar of the folks who make judgments here - because they ply their trade in different circles.

      And make no mistake, there are different circles of success in the copywriting business. It is delusional to believe that there is just one hierarchy where the As you know of are on top and everyone else is below.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        I reject one of the premises of this discussion - that there is one roster of who is best and all the rest are obviously pretenders and losers.

        There are tons and tons of successful and very skilled freelance copywriters who would never appear on the radar of the folks who make judgments here - because they ply their trade in different circles.

        And make no mistake, there are different circles of success in the copywriting business. It is delusional to believe that there is just one hierarchy where the As you know of are on top and everyone else is below.

        Marcia Yudkin
        Yes, indeed. And most of them are unknown, and they prefer it that way, as far as the general public goes. What is more important is they are known within their circles.

        In my "WF Funk" (for some reason, normally I don't care)... I was careless with my slinging. More of a rant than anything.
        Thanks for keeping it real.

        gjabiz
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      Meh. I don't care about the Ds.

      I'm over here working my ass off to get to A.
      ...KNOW you are going to make it. You are probably closer than you imagine.

      Keep up the good work and thanks for your contributions to this forum.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author TrickyDick
    Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

    But, I could be wrong. Maybe those mills like AWAI are grinding out copywriters like pop stars.
    I think you are missing a vital component.....

    There are probably hundreds of people each year who enroll in the AWAI Copywriting program...

    Out of that group, only a fraction go through the entire course, complete all the exercises and submit all the assignments.

    Being generous, AWAI enrolls 800 people per year..... 3% complete everything..... They "graduate" 24 Copywriters a year. Given the demand for quality Copywriters, that is a drop in the ocean.
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by TrickyDick View Post

      I think you are missing a vital component.....

      There are probably hundreds of people each year who enroll in the AWAI Copywriting program...

      Out of that group, only a fraction go through the entire course, complete all the exercises and submit all the assignments.

      Being generous, AWAI enrolls 800 people per year..... 3% complete everything..... They "graduate" 24 Copywriters a year. Given the demand for quality Copywriters, that is a drop in the ocean.
      TD, first, you are not a crook, right?

      Truth is, anyone can call themselves a copywriter. And that is huge truth here at the WF. My holiday from copywriting forum, wasn't long enough.

      Probably, I need a cleanse.

      And, it shouldn't matter. If you can get people to pay you thousands to teach them copywriting, good on you. I'd just prefer your students quit contacting me for help once you have abandon them (not you, as in Tricky Dick, but you as in, if the shoe fits).

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author Bear Huggins
    Quick question, Gordon, to satisfy the skeptic in me and to address the bigger skeptic when I introduce something like this to my better half:

    After 30 weeks, all the money the students paid in will be given back if they've done assignments. How are you making money on the transaction? Is that fair to ask?

    Incidentally, since the fee is considerable (albeit returned weekly upon assignment completion), it's not something that some can/would hand over lightly without thought as to the expense and commitment.

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Bear Huggins View Post

      Quick question, Gordon, to satisfy the skeptic in me and to address the bigger skeptic when I introduce something like this to my better half:

      After 30 weeks, all the money the students paid in will be given back if they've done assignments. How are you making money on the transaction? Is that fair to ask?

      Incidentally, since the fee is considerable (albeit returned weekly upon assignment completion), it's not something that some can/would hand over lightly without thought as to the expense and commitment.

      Thanks.
      First. It is not a make money project, it is a "find some hen's teeth", we are looking for people to join in a multi channel marketing concern, people who can be "partners", in a new direct response start-up.

      We think a great copywriter also brings more than just copy, they bring an education and understanding of how a real direct response company works.

      What they don't know, we teach them.
      So, everyone enters at different skill levels. All the copy courses I know about have set lessons. But, why waste time if a person has been doing and/or studying (as many here claim) for the last couple of years, no need to introduce them to basic concepts is there?

      We selected that figure to instantly sift, to winnow the wheat from the chaff.

      It is about the average price of the copy writing courses we looked at.

      As someone noted, a student of AWAI, for example, may not complete the lessons, even though they paid a big chunk of change. The weekly rebates, hopefully, will be enough of an inducement to complete assignments.

      IF you can't complete weekly assignments, what will happen when you come under deadline? If we want a test done on a certain date, and the copywriter misses deadline, we all lose money and time. The rebates get the habit of writing with deadlines securely anchored in the copy writer's mind.

      And as to "handing over the fee", NOT that simple. Since it isn't a vending product, like most copywriting courses (put your money in, out comes the course) you need to be vetted first, most probably won't qualify.

      There is no way anyone has the ability to bypass me, which is part of my agreement, and there are certain personalities I can't or won't work with.

      Also, we prefer PRODUCERS and CREATORS, so one of the divisions will also be a "portal" (in a manner of speaking) to all the products, and if the copywriter creates, well, of course, their piece of the pie gets bigger.

      Thanks for your questions.

      gjabiz
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      • Profile picture of the author Bear Huggins
        Thanks for those answers.

        I knew that the price would be a natural barrier, sifting wheat from the chaff so to speak The weekly lessons are also a huge inducement. It's a case of the classic "earn while you learn." There is certainly a win-win for the right people.

        Gordon, I was merely responding to the spirit of the thread of "no one's quite stepped up to the plate" for this proposal. As I read back through it, it was only in my hasty reading of the posts that led me to that interpretation. My bad.

        Good luck in finding the right people for the tasks. It seems like a generous proposal. They'll certainly have a great mentor, Gordon.
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        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
          Originally Posted by Bear Huggins View Post


          I knew that the price would be a natural barrier,

          Good luck in finding the right people for the tasks.
          I got started in Real Estate, got my GRI, went to work and quickly found out it was not for me. But, there were valuable lessons.

          Asking (listing) price and final price are seldom a match.

          In Real Estate and Car Buying, it is seldom the sticker price which is paid.

          It is where the NEGOTIATION begins.

          Joe Karbo mentored me because of my enthusiasm and it is safe to say it was worth thousands of dollars of his time and knowledge. My cost was a sincere effort.

          In USA we are trained to respect retail prices, but in most of the world's marketplaces, the asking price is the beginning of the NEGOTIATION.

          As the day goes on, the fishmonger lowers his price as the fresh catch of the day, gets less and less fresh.

          The lesson? It costs nothing to ask, to make a counter offer. I've amazed myself over the years with this policy of offer-counter offer.

          In my case, the person is more important by far, than the "hurt" we put on them to insure participation. So, part of this process is to also find people who want to do it, as well as can.

          What if I reversed it, and made prospects pay by the week? I doubt any would be interested, and I do have some people to talk to this coming week.

          So, my gift to the action takers is this simple advice:

          "The sale begins when the prospect says NO."
          OR,
          almost anything can be negotiated (if price is a barrier), and if not, drop pursuit and move on.

          gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    If ever there was a better time than right now to stoop to a whole new level of humiliation, I know it not... for if I had $3k Gordon, I'd respectfully accept your challenge, though I know not; if my desired outcome (and the ignorance it carries) qualifies?

    Whilst I have no formal training, and my mind's a blur as to the future writing offers - should I be so privileged to entertain, it would be measured greater then the financial reward, for without a purpose to which to write for, I remain lost, as do my skills...bound only by the gift, I remain cursed to this wretched escape.

    Seriously, that my friend is one hell of an enticing offer, and, an "intimidating offer" at that! - It's no wonder most cannot meet the grade, it's a tall order to fill.

    Sadly, money and I have been at odds for years now, not because I am unaware "How to make money" - rather in a state of denial that I can do so with the "gifts" I've been given, respectfully.

    A fool's pride, indeed.

    [Buries head in shame, goes back to writing... "We're all in search of....]
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      If ever there was a better time than right now to stoop to a whole new level of humiliation, I know it not... for if I had $3k Gordon, I'd respectfully accept your challenge, though I know not; if my desired outcome (and the ignorance it carries) qualifies?

      Whilst I have no formal training, and my mind's a blur as to the future writing offers - should I be so privileged to entertain, it would be measured greater then the financial reward, for without a purpose to which to write for, I remain lost, as do my skills...bound only by the gift, I remain cursed to this wretched escape.

      Seriously, that my friend is one hell of an enticing offer, and, an "intimidating offer" at that! - It's no wonder most cannot meet the grade, it's a tall order to fill.

      Sadly, money and I have been at odds for years now, not because I am unaware "How to make money" - rather in a state of denial that I can do so with the "gifts" I've been given, respectfully.

      A fool's pride, indeed.

      [Buries head in shame, goes back to writing... "We're all in search of....]
      The fee is more motivation for y'all and I'll tell you why in a minute.

      First, the question everyone gets is, "Where do you see yourself in 2 years from today?" Then I go silent. And listen.

      With some follow up, where will you be living? What does a typical day look like? WHY are you interested in this offer?

      What project or activity have you done which tells yourself you have the stick with it thing? Could be sports, hobby, or anything.

      NOW then, I could name 10 Warriors off the top of my head, all of whom contacted me when I offered a few "stored value" products which they could write on and keep 100% of whatever their copy sold. I provide a host, some initial traffic, but don't touch the copy.

      Because I believe you have to see your copy in the market and let the BUYERS (or lack of them) give you your critiques.

      Of the 10, one has given it a sort of effort, after weeks of delay, he wrote something. If he wants, I'll test it as it is.

      Over the course of the last 50 years, I've seen hundreds, maybe thousands of people START a business, or a money making effort, or a biz-op, or Writing, Copywriting, Mail Order, etc. etc. And KNOW

      the majority of people can't do it, whatever the IT is.

      Copywriting is easy. Until you take it to the market and ask for money. THEY will tell you if you can write copy or not.

      In the companies I've worked with, most copywriters have the complete package, including the graphic skills. I wrote full page ads, complicated and simple front end and back end mail pieces, phone scripts, TV (infomercial scripts), sweeps, involvement, and most of the people I worked with were multi channel writers, or multi-media if you prefer.

      Underneath it all, is a simple skill.

      Can you sell me or not?

      Even true in our current project, I'd rather someone try to sell their way into the course, if they can't put up the dough...and in my mind, it is what a copywriter should be able to do.

      USE YOUR WORDS TO SELL ME on YOU.

      Or pay the dough. Either way, it is difficult to find people who can
      stick with a project

      meet the deadlines

      understand the dynamics of a multi channel multi division slew of products

      company and write promotions which sell stuff. I stand by my original assertion, they are, EVEN TODAY, with so many copywriters out there...
      as hard to find
      as hen's teeth.

      I always get a tad sad when a wordsmith or wannabe doesn't use his/her command of the language to persuade me, or anyone else.

      gjabiz

      PS. That goes especially for copywriters seeking work, why aren't you using your words to find your work? Sigh.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    My ears are 'ringing"...

    Have you ever written out a powerful message, and "go advanced" only to have that message be erased due to a drop in connection?

    For whatever might that reason be - it just now happened, woe is me!

    While I intend to further research your proposal Gordon, and feel your frustration towards the grade you've given the overall responses you've received thus far, I believe; they are commensurate to the need in which you seek.

    I'll just say this; the only 'chip' I have in the race is a similar "distaste" for what I experienced in my offline industry some years ago.

    Something has definitely gone dim among men (and women alike) whereby, the principles from which business was once conducted may not have changed, albeit, the players have.

    As such, despite my willingness to serve a greater purpose, I cannot do so based upon a measuring stick comprised of some superficial scales (create by man) which in any light does paint a D(ismal) rendition upon the canvas of my mind, and leave me to question; "To whom am I to be in service to, if not the greater good of the whole?"

    Clearly, my discipline affords me many talents, yet my integrity has never been at greater risk, than right now. I've (silently) studied under some brilliant minds, and yet what intimidates me the most is not making the grade, it's whether or not I can surpass the knowledge I was privileged to attain?

    Servitude requires empathy, which most do not possess... just look around. If this forum doesn't paint a clear and concise image upon the canvas of one's mind regarding the conclusion you've drawn (or opinion, as you called it) to wit, most are unwilling to relentlessly pursue their desired outcome- thus, what hope for the student remains?

    In my sincerest rebuttal to "be that difference" - what measure would money bring, if not to supply temporary sustainment to a much deeper internal hunger?

    A hunger that cannot be quenched, without a thirst for new knowledge. Too many times, we encounter the "close-minded" who cannot see the real privilege we share stock in, and if I were a gambling man (which I am to a degree) - my current fear rests not with the intelligent means in which you are offering... rather How would I benefit others with it, should I be privileged to acquire this knowledge?

    In removing money from the equation (momentarily) in a sabbatical of sort (despite having no formal education) I've awakened to believe; "You sir are aware, we deserve to pass our knowledge to those most likely to succeed us, and your frustration grows (as does my own) - for the 'content' refuse to moved by seeking new challenges... Hence, I refer to my original closing argument; "we are all in search of...."

    For though I thought to have entered what appeared a "locked" door to an opportunity beyond my reach, I clearly have possessed the key, a key to which legends are formed, and to mark the path upon which "they" seek, words may seem a familiar whisper... for those who create the maps do so with a "purposeful intent in mind!"

    If nothing less, I respect your purpose Gordon, and not by measure of flattery, rather for the manner in which you put to use... your words.

    Despite my first reply (the one that got erased) being more "simplified" - I do sincerely hope "it" can be considered "if" we can be of benefit each other, whatever the "it" you seek is, which remains a bit vague, considering I cannot measure what "training" you intend to include?

    The proposition is certainly viable, as I am aware you possess expertise, the question that arises in my mind; "can your expectations be found?"

    All the Best,

    Art Moran

    [crushed out his cigarette, and faded off to sleep...]
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    • Gordon,

      In all fairness, when a copywriter takes his/her craft serious, we don't have time to play. We are removed from the lime light and stay busy. Forums become a luxury not a necessity. I rarely get to post here like I use to.

      For me I'm writing for Hardware Manufacturers and Distributors on a daily. Not just sales material but all Marcom. (Who knew a handed clutch assembly on a L1000 was sexy and technicians salivated over the spec sheet I wrote when reading how to perform a bypass in the field)

      Another game changer that's hitting my emails - Headhunters asking if I'd consider moving near their client and be an onsite freelancer on a 12-18 month contract.

      They find my website woodyquinones.com and see my specialty. Regardless that I'm targeting a specific market segment, which I know quite a bit about, they still want me to work for their client which takes me away from my niche.

      Just last week I had to turn down BASF the chemical company because I didn't want to move to Sparks, Georgia for a contract gig. I even told them I didn't know anything about FMEA techniques (failure modes and effects analysis).

      They didn't care. They offered to train me so I could write about it, but would I please move there and be on site 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the duration of the contract.

      Sorry - that last part was a little ranty.
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

        Gordon,

        In all fairness, when a copywriter takes his/her craft serious, we don't have time to play. We are removed from the lime light and stay busy. Forums become a luxury not a necessity. I rarely get to post here like I use to.

        For me I'm writing for Hardware Manufacturers and Distributors on a daily. Not just sales material but all Marcom. (Who knew a handed clutch assembly on a L1000 was sexy and technicians salivated over the spec sheet I wrote when reading how to perform a bypass in the field)

        Another game changer that's hitting my emails - Headhunters asking if I'd consider moving near their client and be an onsite freelancer on a 12-18 month contract.

        They find my website woodyquinones.com and see my specialty. Regardless that I'm targeting a specific market segment, which I know quite a bit about, they still want me to work for their client which takes me away from my niche.

        Just last week I had to turn down BASF the chemical company because I didn't want to move to Sparks, Georgia for a contract gig. I even told them I didn't know anything about FMEA techniques (failure modes and effects analysis).

        They didn't care. They offered to train me so I could write about it, but would I please move there and be on site 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for the duration of the contract.

        Sorry - that last part was a little ranty.
        You're PROOF Woody of my assertion, good copywriters, especially specialists, are busy writing. AND, they get offered work out of their wheel house too.

        See, some of these Warriors have paid thousands to learn how to position themselves as higher paid copywriters, which is a good idea.

        But in the last few months I've had two of them contact me needing help finding work...and of course, I sent them back to their guru who got their thousands of dollars, only fair right?

        Yes, I know good and even great copywriters are worth their money, it is often a scheduling conflict, and our thinking is if we find motivated students, we can train them and HAVE THEM AVAILABLE for when the products are ready to roll out.

        You took your craft seriously and are reaping the rewards. It's just some have paid 3 to 5 thousand for a mentor and apparently they feel that if you ask for bigger money, the so-called positioning, you become a client magnet.

        YOU, as a working copywriter with results are a magnet to even those outside your specialty.

        It isn't about who your mentor/guru was/is...or how much you paid...it is, as always, about results.

        A good copywriter glows like the metal of a sharpened knife, some gurus are turning out dull "couldn't cut warm butter" copy writin' knives.

        gjabiz
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      • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
        Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

        In all fairness, when a copywriter takes his/her craft serious, we don't have time to play. We are removed from the lime light and stay busy. Forums become a luxury not a necessity. I rarely get to post here like I use to.
        It's a bit like the Chamber of Commerces or Leads Clubs.

        When times are tough their numbers swell.

        When business is good the numbers decline to leave the remaining Lawyers, Accountants, Bankers, local wannabe politicians and other predatory types to talk amongst themselves whilst they wait for the next glut of prospects.

        I had the conversation back when I dipped out of my local group after I'd been VP and then got dropped into run things when the president's wife became ill.

        In those days there were 220 people every month at breakfast.

        Now 20 years later they are flat out getting 20 to 30.

        Last time I checked them out I felt like the only virgin amongst a room of vampires.

        I think you can judge how busy people are by their attendance here. That is of course unless they are here for another larger purpose.

        Best regards,

        Ozi
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        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post


          I think you can judge how busy people are by their attendance here. That is of course unless they are here for another larger purpose.

          Best regards,

          Ozi
          I take a different view. I DON'T think we can judge how busy people are by their attendance here, and here is my reason.

          I have a .58 per day post count.
          You have a 1.03 post per day count.
          Claude Whitacre has a 1.73 per day post count with over 4,000 posts.

          We all operate off line businesses, you and Claude with brick and mortar retail places, it must keep you busy, yet, in my opinion three of the better advice givers on WF. Because of their real life experience.

          And this includes the play time spent in the off topic anything goes sandbox too.

          My old friend Jim Straw typed over 125 words a minute, meaning he could write a post like this in a few seconds of his time.

          I can't discern how busy anyone is from their participation at this or any other forum. Some of us are busy people who have good time management skills and/or have set our business up to not be dependent on our presence or without much of our attention.

          So we are free to play or sit on a park bench and feed the squirrels.

          gjabiz
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      My ears are 'ringing"...

      Have you ever written out a powerful message, and "go advanced" only to have that message be erased due to a drop in connection?

      For whatever might that reason be - it just now happened, woe is me!

      While I intend to further research your proposal Gordon, and feel your frustration towards the grade you've given the overall responses you've received thus far, I believe; they are commensurate to the need in which you seek.

      I'll just say this; the only 'chip' I have in the race is a similar "distaste" for what I experienced in my offline industry some years ago.

      Something has definitely gone dim among men (and women alike) whereby, the principles from which business was once conducted may not have changed, albeit, the players have.

      As such, despite my willingness to serve a greater purpose, I cannot do so based upon a measuring stick comprised of some superficial scales (create by man) which in any light does paint a D(ismal) rendition upon the canvas of my mind, and leave me to question; "To whom am I to be in service to, if not the greater good of the whole?"

      Clearly, my discipline affords me many talents, yet my integrity has never been at greater risk, than right now. I've (silently) studied under some brilliant minds, and yet what intimidates me the most is not making the grade, it's whether or not I can surpass the knowledge I was privileged to attain?

      Servitude requires empathy, which most do not possess... just look around. If this forum doesn't paint a clear and concise image upon the canvas of one's mind regarding the conclusion you've drawn (or opinion, as you called it) to wit, most are unwilling to relentlessly pursue their desired outcome- thus, what hope for the student remains?

      In my sincerest rebuttal to "be that difference" - what measure would money bring, if not to supply temporary sustainment to a much deeper internal hunger?

      A hunger that cannot be quenched, without a thirst for new knowledge. Too many times, we encounter the "close-minded" who cannot see the real privilege we share stock in, and if I were a gambling man (which I am to a degree) - my current fear rests not with the intelligent means in which you are offering... rather How would I benefit others with it, should I be privileged to acquire this knowledge?

      In removing money from the equation (momentarily) in a sabbatical of sort (despite having no formal education) I've awakened to believe; "You sir are aware, we deserve to pass our knowledge to those most likely to succeed us, and your frustration grows (as does my own) - for the 'content' refuse to moved by seeking new challenges... Hence, I refer to my original closing argument; "we are all in search of...."

      For though I thought to have entered what appeared a "locked" door to an opportunity beyond my reach, I clearly have possessed the key, a key to which legends are formed, and to mark the path upon which "they" seek, words may seem a familiar whisper... for those who create the maps do so with a "purposeful intent in mind!"

      If nothing less, I respect your purpose Gordon, and not by measure of flattery, rather for the manner in which you put to use... your words.

      Despite my first reply (the one that got erased) being more "simplified" - I do sincerely hope "it" can be considered "if" we can be of benefit each other, whatever the "it" you seek is, which remains a bit vague, considering I cannot measure what "training" you intend to include?

      The proposition is certainly viable, as I am aware you possess expertise, the question that arises in my mind; "can your expectations be found?"

      All the Best,

      Art Moran

      [crushed out his cigarette, and faded off to sleep...]
      If you had a post deleted, I didn't see it. I think the WF mods are a fickle, and at times, just like to exert their power because they can, arbitrarily. I have had many posts deleted which (in my mind) didn't violate any WF rules, I don't like to waste time, but it is their place, their rules.

      As for the rest of your comment, I have no response.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author AlanCarr
    fun fact - any real copywriter, even if just starting out, is just too busy to dedicate a year to weekly assignments.

    I've been a copywriter more years than I care to remember, at least 10 years, and still consider myself learning. But pay $3k to get my own money back again, over the course of a year, whilst sucking up all my time?

    Strangely, I don't find that entirely enticing?

    The real killer for me though is the talk of deadlines. I'm allergic to deadlines. They make me giggle.

    The only time I'll accept a deadline is for a print publication, and even then I'll bully the client for not arranging things earlier.





    AC
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by AlanCarr View Post

      fun fact - any real copywriter, even if just starting out, is just too busy to dedicate a year to weekly assignments.

      I've been a copywriter more years than I care to remember, at least 10 years, and still consider myself learning. But pay $3k to get my own money back again, over the course of a year, whilst sucking up all my time?

      Strangely, I don't find that entirely enticing?

      The real killer for me though is the talk of deadlines. I'm allergic to deadlines. They make me giggle.

      The only time I'll accept a deadline is for a print publication, and even then I'll bully the client for not arranging things earlier.

      AC
      More FUN facts. There are 52 weeks in a year. We ask for 30. And, for 5 hours a week per assignment.

      Another FUN fact, several here have already paid $3.000.00 for copywriting courses, some offered here already, and some of them haven't yet earned their investment back.

      Yes, in the REAL WORLD of copywriting, we often have deadlines, and so, like to hire those who are allergy free of them, and can meet them. Newspapers, magazines, TV, radio, and even online promotions have to be scheduled and if a roll out time is known, there has to be deadlines.

      So keep giggling. No problems, no worries.

      Any new copywriter who wouldn't commit 5 hours a week to his craft, would not be someone we would be interested in. Thanks for your perspective.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author AlanCarr
    5 hours for 30 weeks?

    Well you failed at communicating that, didn't you?

    I have to say though, if your copywriters are completing entire assignments in 5 hours or less, then... how can I put this delicately...? They're &%$#.

    A serious sales writer will spend a full day, week or even more on just the headline - and that's AFTER the basics of researching, persona development etc.

    I'm not peeing on your parade; I'm just curious as to what exactly you're trying to do here or whom you're trying to appeal to? Obviously not an experienced writer like me but who, exactly? Maybe I need more coffee but it's not making much sense.



    AC
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by AlanCarr View Post

      5 hours for 30 weeks?

      Well you failed at communicating that, didn't you?

      I have to say though, if your copywriters are completing entire assignments in 5 hours or less, then... how can I put this delicately...? They're &%$#.

      A serious sales writer will spend a full day, week or even more on just the headline - and that's AFTER the basics of researching, persona development etc.

      I'm not peeing on your parade; I'm just curious as to what exactly you're trying to do here or whom you're trying to appeal to? Obviously not an experienced writer like me but who, exactly? Maybe I need more coffee but it's not making much sense.

      AC
      First, I didn't start the thread to troll for prospects, rather, more of a rant about my opinion of the state of copywriting. Since the OP, I have responded.

      Also, I dont need to make sense to you, in fact, you've clearly stated you hate deadlines and are far too experienced, with 10 years under your belt and all.

      And since you have absolutely NO IDEA of what a typical assignment would be like, you have no way of knowing how much time it would take, do you? NO, you don't.

      I know mid six figure copywriters who spend an hour on their headlines, you are speaking from your experience, right? I don't accept that kind of thinking, I've been around too long.

      Also, have no need, desire or inclination to satisfy your curiosity. Means nothing to me.

      But I would like to point a few more FUN facts out to you. You've been a copywriter for at least 10 years, at what point did you hire Vin Montello as your mentor, 10 years ago? I think Vin is great. In fact, I''d love to pick his brain on his TV experience, since I'm "trying" to write a sit-com.

      But I notice that he has a one to one mentorship, and that he is very selective about who he works with, and it is six months PAID IN ADVANCE training, which is about 25 weeks of time, assuming you are mentored for the 6 months.

      You said originally,
      - any real copywriter, even if just starting out, is just too busy to dedicate a year to weekly assignments.

      To which I responded; a year is 52 weeks, our deal is 30 weeks. And yet, did you not study with your mentors for a period of time, or were you just too busy writing? Maybe I need more coffee to get your point?

      It would be great if we could find some new copywriters with a desire to learn how to write copy, and to have assignments for products when the time to launch comes, but there are plenty of you experienced guys we could turn too, well, at least the ones who aren't allergic to deadlines.

      You are making a lot of assumptions about something you know nothing about, is that how you write your copy, or do you at least do a little homework first and get your facts straight?

      gjabiz


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    • Profile picture of the author StarkContrast
      Originally Posted by AlanCarr View Post

      5 hours for 30 weeks?

      Well you failed at communicating that, didn't you?

      I have to say though, if your copywriters are completing entire assignments in 5 hours or less, then... how can I put this delicately...? They're &%$#.

      A serious sales writer will spend a full day, week or even more on just the headline - and that's AFTER the basics of researching, persona development etc.

      I'm not peeing on your parade;
      AC
      You just did.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I'm kinda sick of "pro copywriters" being lumped into some sort of end-all, be-all group. And like everyone outside this set list of criteria is somehow less. I'm echoing Marcia, for sure.

    It's this kind of bullshit posturing that had me convinced for years that was somehow a failure as a copywriter, a sham, not an expert at what I do...

    ...all because I'm not full-time freelance.

    You know what I AM though?

    A multi-million dollar seller, several times over.

    An experienced multi-channel marketer.

    A mentor to junior writers.

    A mentee to a VERY experienced copywriter who's taught me a lot about the work, reaching people, taking chances, and aiming VERY high.

    I just happen to do it from a cube in an office for a company you may or may not recognize if you heard it.

    This dick-slinging and trying to tier copywriters is pure and utter garbage.

    I'm not better than someone sitting at home on his couch on his last night in his apartment, wondering where his next meal will come from and where he's gonna sleep tomorrow. I've been that guy.

    I'm not better than the freelance consultant helping companies attract and retain more loyal, high-paying clients. I've been that guy.

    I'm not better than someone sitting in a cube banging away their best words for "the man". I've been that guy too.

    I'm simply at a different stage in my journey. Tomorrow I could be full-time freelance. Tomorrow I could be the guy losing his home.

    This is not one checklist. This is a spectrum. Money is not the only gauge, the only rule we're playing this game by, guys.

    So put it back in your pants and stop pretending like attacking your peers makes you look like a ******* rockstar.

    Hint: it doesn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    ^^^ My sentiments exactly^^^
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  • I think theres a whole new wave of people who believe they can make a living freelance copwriting, i mean you can but you have to build up a reputation and that takes time, it isn't just instant money
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by PremiumWebResearch View Post

      I think there's a whole new wave of people who believe they can make a living freelance copwriting, i mean you can but you have to build up a reputation and that takes time, it isn't just instant money
      An therein lies the problem. Despite this being a response to a one-off poster, I sincerely remain "torn" between my selfish desire to make my own name, under my own influence, with "no gate keeper" as Alan Weiss suggests...

      or...

      Finding a solid mentor who is both willing and capable of providing direction for both the student, and their own growth.

      Sadly, many in this field "act' as if they have become fat, lazy, content, complacent, and have accomplished all they've set out to do and more... Yet, how hard is it for the student to "read between the lines" and realize; "There's just as few good teachers as there are good students.

      It is not an easy study. One I've chosen to walk alone, for fear such bias may affect my end goals, or subjectively attach my (reputation) upon the coat tails of another... which comes back to what Alan says; "NO GATEKEEPER NEEDED".

      IMHO writing is just one little piece that comprises the "end goal" many "copy" writers set out to accomplish, and jumping in this pool is liken to cutting yourself, diving into the ocean, and waiting to see "How many sharks are swimming about?"

      Of which, what seemed a valiant offer upon first read, almost seems more befitting to a warrior version of "Shark Tank" under closer observation.

      "I too could be wrong with this opinion"

      ["but in his final words I found an ace that I could keep..."]
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  • Profile picture of the author FemaleAddadotcom
    there is no definite criteria on what makes a content better, same goes for a content writer.. your idea should be new, should be correct, should be all inclusive, should be entertaining, should be for the readers of all classess.. and should be BRIEF.. lets make the sense of it...
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  • Profile picture of the author TrickyDick
    Here's another AWAI trained Copywriter...

    You may have heard of him...

    Anik Singal...

    I attended a Copywriting Workshop in Del Ray Beach, Florida put on by Michael Masterson (Mark Ford)
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  • Profile picture of the author TrickyDick
    Chris Haddad is also an AWAI trained Copywriter....
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by TrickyDick View Post

      Chris Haddad is also an AWAI trained Copywriter....
      And he was smart enough to be coached by one of the top coaches (some say the top coach) in the industry early in his career.

      Alex
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