Do (Write) it yourself my dear client!

11 replies
After the 5th revision of a sales letter in a row, which was "unsuccessful" of course, I decided that I just had enough. So, I said, write it yourself!

Needless to say, had to say bye-bye to my money. This was a freelance project. There was a deposit/escrow/milestone protection. But, what's the use when a client has to release the money in order for me to use it? This means, I need to go through the dispute/arbitration process to get my money. Or, in other words, to wait up to 15 days, when a client will say, he failed to comply with my requirements?!

So, I decided to let it go and save my nerves for other projects. Was this a stupid thing to do? I don't negotiate the number of revisions. Why? Well, I usually provide a revision or two. You know, the "normal" stuff, change a thing here and there, polish a little bit, can you put an extra line, etc.

If you say to a client, how many revisions I may expect is for me like saying, what are we gonna do if you don't like it. So instead, I provide a list of more or less relevant examples. My point is, if you like my examples, it's very likely you like what I'm gonna write for you. Right?

What was my best option? To wait for the revision #10 and call it a day? There were no warning signs, this guy was so cool at the beginning. Then came the revisions...

I know there are SEO guys, designers, and others who can examine my point of view, just as there are warriors who were hiring as clients. My money is gone. My work too. I can't claim copyright without payment. Not to mention time and my nerves. Is this a "collateral damage" I have to accept every now and then? How I'm gonna attract new clients with a sign "don't kill me with too many revisions?" It's just like you're coming out of a relationship and you're set to ruin the next one, because you're full of negative energy and bitter feelings.

Your thoughts, please...
#business relationship #client #dear #projects #revisions #write
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    My first thought is to ask do you know how to write a sales letter?

    That doesn't directly address your question but I think indirectly it may.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      My first thought is to ask do you know how to write a sales letter?

      That doesn't directly address your question but I think indirectly it may.

      Mark
      Mark,

      I wouldn't get a job in the first place without a half dozen examples to show to this client. The referencing system among freelancers on all freelance platforms is based on reviews of similar or relevant projects. So, thank you for your response, but I expected a little bit deeper approach. Blame it on me, that's exactly what the client did.

      On the other side, if you didn't like my writing after 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time, how do you think that the 5th time would change the situation? So, I imagine you are my client telling me I don't know how to do my job. OK, then my response would be, you as a client don't know how to choose a writer/freelancer.

      Fair enough?

      Nesha
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  • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
    Nesha,

    All of us have had projects that went sour. I have certainly had my share, but it happens to me less and less. Here's why.

    What's helpful is to look back and identify where your own expectations and assumptions contributed to the dynamic, where you failed to pay attention to warning signs. These factors are always there. Then you learn how to change your way of working with clients so as to prevent the misunderstandings and conflicts.

    It's true that the other side also contributes to the problem, but that is not the part that you can control. Therefore, by not blaming them and taking all the responsibility on yourself - to begin with, only as a mental exercise - you get your work life more and more to go your way.

    You will see that there is also an element here of taking your ego out of the picture, so you can look dispassionately at the situation. It is a hard thing to do at first, but ultimately it leads to success and happiness.

    Over time, if you use this process, projects go well more and more of the time. And you feel less frustrated.

    Good luck,

    Marcia Yudkin
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

      Nesha,

      All of us have had projects that went sour. I have certainly had my share, but it happens to me less and less. Here's why.

      What's helpful is to look back and identify where your own expectations and assumptions contributed to the dynamic, where you failed to pay attention to warning signs. These factors are always there. Then you learn how to change your way of working with clients so as to prevent the misunderstandings and conflicts.

      It's true that the other side also contributes to the problem, but that is not the part that you can control. Therefore, by not blaming them and taking all the responsibility on yourself - to begin with, only as a mental exercise - you get your work life more and more to go your way.

      You will see that there is also an element here of taking your ego out of the picture, so you can look dispassionately at the situation. It is a hard thing to do at first, but ultimately it leads to success and happiness.

      Over time, if you use this process, projects go well more and more of the time. And you feel less frustrated.

      Good luck,

      Marcia Yudkin
      Marcia,

      On the second thought, there were some "warning signs," yet I was too blind to see. This ignorance costed me a lot. Your first-hand experience definitely helps me lick my wounds. It happened once, you're right, nothing I can do about it, in terms of control. But, if I post this thread a couple of weeks or months from now again, then blame it on me.

      Very constructive and thoughtful comment. I'm truly grateful.

      Nesha
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  • Profile picture of the author gingerninjas
    I'd always be VERY clear about what you expect from the client as well as what they expect from you. If you provide examples and they provide possibly an example of what they had in mind or something from their competitor it will often help the process. I have an online form which asks clients to fill in a ton of information ahead of starting on a job, if you are going through a freelance site you can share this on there or you can just had a doc you upload and ask them to fill in. It can be a challenge, however. I think if you view it from both sides it comes down to communication usually. Well, in my case that is usually what it comes down to.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by gingerninjas View Post

      I'd always be VERY clear about what you expect from the client as well as what they expect from you. If you provide examples and they provide possibly an example of what they had in mind or something from their competitor it will often help the process. I have an online form which asks clients to fill in a ton of information ahead of starting on a job, if you are going through a freelance site you can share this on there or you can just had a doc you upload and ask them to fill in. It can be a challenge, however. I think if you view it from both sides it comes down to communication usually. Well, in my case that is usually what it comes down to.
      Thx GN. You made me to think. This online form is a great idea. If you are a serious client, who wants to get the job done, then you will have nothing against filling a form, such as this. Right? On the other side, I don't want to complicate things or scare off my potential clients, but at the same time I have every right to protect my position. Why I haven't thought of it earlier? Honestly, the business was as usual. You know, sometimes clients say this is great after the first version. Sometimes they say can you do this and that. Very reasonable and very fair. So, I lowered my guard, and this is what happened. Thx again. N
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      • Profile picture of the author gingerninjas
        Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

        Thx GN. You made me to think. This online form is a great idea. If you are a serious client, who wants to get the job done, then you will have nothing against filling a form, such as this. Right? On the other side, I don't want to complicate things or scare off my potential clients, but at the same time I have every right to protect my position. Why I haven't thought of it earlier? Honestly, the business was as usual. You know, sometimes clients say this is great after the first version. Sometimes they say can you do this and that. Very reasonable and very fair. So, I lowered my guard, and this is what happened. Thx again. N
        Honestly, every few months I get a client who is so out of left field expectation wise a form and a questionnaire could never prepare me for their feedback. It's not always something I can manage and if we can't work out a resolution we part ways, the online form saves me so much time (and I have a permanent record of what they shared with me which can prove quite a bit if they change the game halfway through).
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Let's be 1000% clear here, in case any other Newbs are watching.

    Copyright DOES NOT DEPEND on payment.

    You are the creator of the work. You assign rights to the client in exchange for money (and hopefully you're retaining some of those rights, like the ability to use it as an example of your work).

    Repeat this until it's burned in: no money = no rights. No payment? NO RIGHTS.

    I'm not a lawyer, so always consult with one before taking action, as that's the best way to protect yourself.

    But, I have taken intellectual property courses to better understand and protect myself.

    Copyright protects the original expression of an idea.

    Ideas themselves are too vague to be copyrighted, hence why Hollywood can put out 2 movies at the same time with the same plot.

    Same idea, different script, actors, director, location, editing, etc...

    To get a copyright, literally all you have to do is physically create something. Put it to paper. Type it up. Record it on your cell phone cam. IP law, at least in the U.S. and other treaty counties, automatically grants copyright as soon as the work is CREATED.

    Here's where it gets tricky: to be able to file suit and get damages, you have to file for official copyright from the US Copyright Office.

    BUT...

    There is something called the Digital Millennium Takedown Notice (DMCA). If someone online uses your work without permission, you can file to have the site remove that work.

    Cumbersome to be sure. I used it once upon a time to pull down work a jerk client had used after telling me it sucked and refusing to pay.

    But here's where your approach is better:

    I couldn't let go of the anger once burned, and move on and learn the lesson. I wasted so much time, effort, and mental energy being pissed at this guy and issuing DMCA takedown notices when I could have moved on to the next client, better able to see the warnings next time.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Fantastic!!

      Right now, I'm working with a new more reasonable client, so I don't have time to play copyright game, BUT...

      Now, I know that I have plenty of evidence in my hands. And, you just gave me an idea. The next time, I will include a lovely note: please be advised that you won't be able to use this... according to... blah-blah.

      Excellent!!

      Appreciated!!

      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      Let's be 1000% clear here, in case any other Newbs are watching.

      Copyright DOES NOT DEPEND on payment.

      You are the creator of the work. You assign rights to the client in exchange for money (and hopefully you're retaining some of those rights, like the ability to use it as an example of your work).

      Repeat this until it's burned in: no money = no rights. No payment? NO RIGHTS.

      I'm not a lawyer, so always consult with one before taking action, as that's the best way to protect yourself.

      But, I have taken intellectual property courses to better understand and protect myself.

      Copyright protects the original expression of an idea.

      Ideas themselves are too vague to be copyrighted, hence why Hollywood can put out 2 movies at the same time with the same plot.

      Same idea, different script, actors, director, location, editing, etc...

      To get a copyright, literally all you have to do is physically create something. Put it to paper. Type it up. Record it on your cell phone cam. IP law, at least in the U.S. and other treaty counties, automatically grants copyright as soon as the work is CREATED.

      Here's where it gets tricky: to be able to file suit and get damages, you have to file for official copyright from the US Copyright Office.

      BUT...

      There is something called the Digital Millennium Takedown Notice (DMCA). If someone online uses your work without permission, you can file to have the site remove that work.

      Cumbersome to be sure. I used it once upon a time to pull down work a jerk client had used after telling me it sucked and refusing to pay.

      But here's where your approach is better:

      I couldn't let go of the anger once burned, and move on and learn the lesson. I wasted so much time, effort, and mental energy being pissed at this guy and issuing DMCA takedown notices when I could have moved on to the next client, better able to see the warnings next time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      To get a copyright, literally all you have to do is physically create something. Put it to paper. Type it up. Record it on your cell phone cam. IP law, at least in the U.S. and other treaty counties, automatically grants copyright as soon as the work is CREATED.

      Here's where it gets tricky: to be able to file suit and get damages, you have to file for official copyright from the US Copyright Office.
      Thanks Angie,

      I was always of the belief that any original work was automatically copyrighted to the creator.

      There seems to be various issues depending on whether you register the work and what country you are in when it comes to protecting your rights.

      Enforcing your copyright can get costly.

      For reference here is the US link for copyright info...

      ...yes I know the forum is about copywriting and not copyrights but if this helps copywriters protect their intellectual "copyrights" then the info may help...

      Frequently Asked Questions about Copyright | U.S. Copyright Office

      and for Aussies....

      copyright.org.au

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        Thanks Angie,

        I was always of the belief that any original work was automatically copyrighted to the creator.

        There seems to be various issues depending on whether you register the work and what country you are in when it comes to protecting your rights.

        Enforcing your copyright can get costly.

        For reference here is the US link for copyright info...

        ...yes I know the forum is about copywriting and not copyrights but if this helps copywriters protect their intellectual "copyrights" then the info may help...

        Frequently Asked Questions about Copyright | U.S. Copyright Office

        and for Aussies....

        copyright.org.au

        Best regards,

        Ozi
        I think it's an important discussion to have in here. I'm by no means going to give in-depth lessons to people who should get in the habit of doing research, but it does frustrate me to see so many newbs thinking that copyright is something bought and paid for.

        NO.

        CREATORS get the copyright. How far they want to go to protect themselves is on them (hint: I've never filed with USCO, except for one screenplay that had to be registered as part of a contest). I'm at the stage where if someone steals my work 1) OK, I guess I can take that as flattery, 2) they're blackballed from working with me for life, and 3) everyone in my professional circles will know about the thievery.

        I just don't have the mental bandwidth to go hunting people down and making them pay.

        By the way OP, my contract specifically states that rights to use the work are assigned to them once payment is made in full. And it details which rights are mine, which are theirs. If they want ALL rights and an NDA, they pay more. If they don't want me to put my name/stamp on it and claim that I did that, they pay more.

        Talk to a lawyer, or at least if you're going to continue to work on shitty freelancer sites, draft up clear working terms.
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