What new freelance copywriters must do to land high-paying projects right away?

21 replies
How new freelance copywriters can sail against the winds and land high-paying projects, when they are just starting out?

With such a competitive market (and flooded too), there is a "Copywriter's marathon" going on all the time. Big names are sucking in all the major giant projects, leaving behind low budget trash for new starters.

Let's accept a bitter truth here. High budget clients won't fill your lap with 100 dollar bills unless you have a proven track record...unless you have a living example of a successful sales page that you can point out and say loudly "This is my creation. My words made this client earn tens of thousands of dollars."

So your hourly rate depends on this one thing: Creating a living success story. If you manage to create one, boom! Rest will be history. But the million dollar question is: HOW WILL YOU CREATE A SUCCESS STORY WHEN YOU ARE ONLY HIRED BY LOW-BUDGET STARTUPS THAT HAVE NEAR-TO-ZERO MARKETING BUDGET (and so they seldom succeed)?

There is a secret to that. And all big names in copywriting are recommending it. Here is how it goes:

1st step: Get all your guns ready. Get familiar with every headline-writing formula, stuff your head inside persuasion psychology and make sure your copywriting knowledge is good enough to craft a kick-ass sales page (So, when you get a chance, you ace it at first shot!).

2nd step: Here comes the trick - stop looking for fixed or hourly budget copywriting projects (because you won't be getting a highly paid one). Instead, negotiate with your client to agree at working on commission basis i.e a fixed percentage on each sale your copy will make. Make your client an offer he can't refuse..... Something like this "I won't be receiving a single penny from you until your product sells. This means your product is as dearer to me as it is to yourself. I will craft an entire campaign strategy, including sales page copy, social media ads, emails, and everything that would be necessary to make your product an overnight hit. In return, I would like you to listen to my advises/instructions precisely and act upon them accordingly (this is crucial). PS my compensation will only be a small percentage on each sale and a permission to use your sales copy as a case study later on."

This is a win-win for both parties.

Your takeaways:
• If you manage to score a conversion rate ranging between 5-10%, PARTY BEGINS! You have a ready-to-go-genuinely-truly yours case study all set to impress high paying clients.
• The small compensation you are receiving over each sale has multiplied enough to make this a high paying job too!
• You have a success story to talk about, to negotiate about with your next clients.

Your client's takeaways:

• He never invested anything in copywriting. The product is generating money itself for all its expenses.
• By not paying anything to copy writer initially, he minimized his risks and achieved peace of mind. When money starts rolling in, giving a small percentage to copywriter is not a pain.

What it takes to do this?
A leap of faith in your abilities.

Do you have any other tips and tricks that can help new freelance copywriters get better wages - wages they deserve? Please do let me know by sharing your thoughts below. Thanks.
#copywriters #freelance #highpaying #land #projects
  • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
    Big names are sucking in all the major giant projects, leaving behind low budget trash for new starters.
    There are some significant holes in your argument.

    First, copywriting opportunities are not divided into two categories only - major giant projects and low budget trash.

    Second, there are many copywriting markets. Many of them are completely invisible to those who look up to the "big names." And many of them would not even hire your "big names." They are looking for different qualities in their copywriters.

    And third, the compensation proposal you suggest is NOT always a win for copywriters. That's why Dan Kennedy and many other veterans in the business get paid a fee plus royalties, not royalties only. There are just too many ways the client can screw up the business so that the copywriter gets nothing, through no fault of their own and despite doing excellent work.

    Sure, what you are proposing can work. But it is much riskier for the copywriter - and for the client as well - than you have portrayed it to be. You're also making it seem like there are no other options for newer copywriters, which is quite untrue.

    Marcia Yudkin
    Signature
    Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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    • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
      Hi Marcia,
      Thanks for your insight. I really appreciate that.

      Yes I agree that there are many other options for new freelance copywriters and surely they can find one. The strategy I have described above is one-of-the-three strategies suggested by Joanna Wiebe for new Freelance copywriters. Here is how she describes it on her own blog:

      "What about when you’re just starting to build your client base?

      In that case, the following has worked for me and my friends:

      -Charge a commission/royalty only, where you do the work and they promise to implement the test as you design it (i.e., using the right tool, using it the right way, following your creative direction)… and then you earn X% on Y sales

      -Set a fixed rate you’ll be happy with, stand your ground on it… and give them peace of mind by guaranteeing your services will pay for themselves (i.e., with test results) in 2 months or you’ll give them their money back

      -Set a fixed rate they’ll be happy with, and ask for a commission/royalty on every sale from the winning recipe"

      I found her first point to be more applicable and so, have expanded on it.
      Hope this backs up my argument well.
      Thanks
      Junaid Khawaja
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  • Profile picture of the author neshaword
    I like what you wrote, but honestly, I don't believe that you can shine as a copywriting start RIGHT AWAY. OK, maybe I've had a different path. I'm still working and fighting to break on through to the other side (Doors), lol. I both admire and envy those right-away guys. Yet, this right away thing isn't the right way for me. I'm more of a step-by-step guy (NKOTB), lol. It took me a while to build my portfolio and find some more or less reliable clients. I think this is a process. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you definitely can't become a "big name" in the industry overnight. From my personal experience, I can tell you that the "major league" can be a dangerous and frustrating place. I'm working with "leftovers" of these so-called major league players and big names. Every now and then, especially when I work on "preferred" projects, I can see what's going on there. You get more money, but at the same time you get more revisions and the pressure is sometimes unbearable. So, what you want is what you get. Be careful what you wish for. Thanks for sharing this one. Cheers! You certainly deserve my upvote!!
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    • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
      Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

      I like what you wrote, but honestly, I don't believe that you can shine as a copywriting start RIGHT AWAY. OK, maybe I've had a different path. I'm still working and fighting to break on through to the other side (Doors), lol. I both admire and envy those right-away guys. Yet, this right away thing isn't the right way for me. I'm more of a step-by-step guy (NKOTB), lol. It took me a while to build my portfolio and find some more or less reliable clients. I think this is a process. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you definitely can't become a "big name" in the industry overnight. From my personal experience, I can tell you that the "major league" can be a dangerous and frustrating place. I'm working with "leftovers" of these so-called major league players and big names. Every now and then, especially when I work on "preferred" projects, I can see what's going on there. You get more money, but at the same time you get more revisions and the pressure is sometimes unbearable. So, what you want is what you get. Be careful what you wish for. Thanks for sharing this one. Cheers! You certainly deserve my upvote!!
      Hi Neshaword, thanks for your upvote. I agree with the fact that success is a turtle walk and usually what we call "an overnight success" has hundreds of failures and endless behind the scene hardwork. But what I do believe is 'frog leaps' towards success. We all should surely look for these frog leaps.
      Thanks for your great insight! Cheers!
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author neshaword
        Frog leaps. I'm gonna remember that. So, here's our strategy, for you and me Junaid. We should fight like turtles, but we should jump like frogs, lol. I wanna progress, it's in our nature. So, let's fight. And, let's take an advantage of those rare opportunities.

        Gotta jump, lol. Very positive thx.

        N

        Originally Posted by Junaid khawaja View Post

        Hi Neshaword, thanks for your upvote. I agree with the fact that success is a turtle walk and usually what we call "an overnight success" has hundreds of failures and endless behind the scene hardwork. But what I do believe is 'frog leaps' towards success. We all should surely look for these frog leaps.
        Thanks for your great insight! Cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
    WOW. Recent rash of "I have no choice" and this BS regurgitated (admittedly so) Pablam from someone who doesn't have a high paying client.

    Writers write. They study, learn and write.

    As has been pointed out, you all do have a choice. It isn't about confidence, if you lack confidence in your writing, QUIT offering your services.

    Copywriters write, and deliver copy on time.

    They don't always hit the mark, part and parcel of the game, and with so many variables in the hands of the client, it may not be the copy which isn't working.

    As for high paying clients, I have no idea what that means. Tell me, this is my last contract...

    $6,950.00 per month paid for 9 months, backend royalties for about 10 hours a week of my time. Do you consider that a high paying gig?

    I don't. It is typical for how I structure deals.

    YOU DO get to choose your clients, you do have control of your work time and there is a huge demand from established businesses for a copywriter who delivers on time, and can generate sales.

    TOO many of you have brought into the hype of copywriting as a Biz-Op with expectations of 6 figures because you can string a few sentences together...and you think it is easy. Just write like we teach you, and here is the result.

    Writers who BELIEVE their own lies about not having any choice, or lack of control, or feel put upon by low hanging (on the ground) fruit from sheety clients should...

    try an adult approach.

    Take responsibility. Choose your target clients who can afford to pay the piper and then deliver the jig, instead of the dirge.

    GordonJ



    Originally Posted by Junaid khawaja View Post

    How new freelance copywriters can sail against. the winds and land high-paying projects, when they are just starting out?

    With such a competitive market (and flooded too), there is a “Copywriter’s marathon” going on all the time. Big names are sucking in all the major giant projects, leaving behind low budget trash for new starters.

    Let’s accept a bitter truth here. High budget clients won’t fill your lap with 100 dollar bills unless you have a proven track record…unless you have a living example of a successful sales page that you can point out and say loudly “This is my creation. My words made this client earn tens of thousands of dollars.

    So your hourly rate depends on this one thing: Creating a living success story. If you manage to create one, boom! Rest will be history. But the million dollar question is: HOW WILL YOU CREATE A SUCCESS STORY WHEN YOU ARE ONLY HIRED BY LOW-BUDGET STARTUPS THAT HAVE NEAR-TO-ZERO MARKETING BUDGET (and so they seldom succeed)?

    There is a secret to that. And all big names in copywriting are recommending it. Here is how it goes:

    1st step: Get all your guns ready. Get familiar with every headline-writing formula, stuff your head inside persuasion psychology and make sure your copywriting knowledge is good enough to craft a kick-ass sales page (So, when you get a chance, you ace it at first shot!).

    2nd step: Here comes the trick – stop looking for fixed or hourly budget copywriting projects (because you won’t be getting a highly paid one). Instead, negotiate with your client to agree at working on commission basis i.e a fixed percentage on each sale your copy will make. Make your client an offer he can’t refuse….. Something like this “I won’t be receiving a single penny from you until your product sells. This means your product is as dearer to me as it is to yourself. I will craft an entire campaign strategy, including sales page copy, social media ads, emails, and everything that would be necessary to make your product an overnight hit. In return, I would like you to listen to my advises/instructions precisely and act upon them accordingly (this is crucial). PS my compensation will only be a small percentage on each sale and a permission to use your sales copy as a case study later on.

    This is a win-win for both parties.

    Your takeaways:
    • If you manage to score a conversion rate ranging between 5-10%, PARTY BEGINS! You have a ready-to-go-genuinely-truly yours case study all set to impress high paying clients.
    • The small compensation you are receiving over each sale has multiplied enough to make this a high paying job too!
    • You have a success story to talk about, to negotiate about with your next clients.

    Your client’s takeaways:

    • He never invested anything in copywriting. The product is generating money itself for all its expenses.
    • By not paying anything to copy writer initially, he minimized his risks and achieved peace of mind. When money starts rolling in, giving a small percentage to copywriter is not a pain.

    What it takes to do this?
    A leap of faith in your abilities.

    Do you have any other tips and tricks that can help new freelance copywriters get better wages – wages they deserve? Please do let me know by sharing your thoughts below. Thanks.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10757776].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author 1Bryan
      Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


      Writers write. They study, learn and write.

      GordonJ
      Don't forget ...

      Sellers sell.

      And this OP doesn't sound like someone who sells. More concerned with upvotes. Oh boy. This is what happens when bloggers call themselves copywriters.

      They can start a post on a forum.

      Just like a numbers nerd can start a post about sabermetrics on a baseball forum.

      But they can't sell.

      Just like the numbers nerd can't swing a bat.



      (I get that the Main Discussion's become about having folks post "articles" as threads. But this is where the sales folk used to hang out and now ...

      It's folks either bragging about how many Likes they got or posting generic garbage like this.

      Give me someone who can sell over someone who blogs any day of the week ...

      If money's what I'm after. And it usually is ...

      Copywriting ain't about 99% of the crap folks on this board are posting about. You sell or you don't.

      It's that simple.

      And if you can't sell ...

      How the hell can you post some crap about being a copywriter???

      It's like a virgin talking about their sex life.

      )
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    • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
      Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


      try an adult approach.


      GordonJ
      Gordon, thanks for disagreeing and giving your point of view on this.
      You have totally missed the point. Try an adult approach? And how many years does it really took you to achieve your "adult" approach? You have bragged a lot about the results you have achieved over the years...but do you have any better advise for newbies to cut down the competition and achieve your level of excellence in a shorter time than you took? I have a bunch of great copywriters as my students and despite all their expertise and knowledge, they were failing to increase their hourly rate. Why? Because they always worked with low-budget folks who never invest in ads to bring traffic to the copies they were writing. And once they convinced high-budget clients to trust in their abilities and give them a try, things finally turned out for them. Why? Because these copywriters produce a great case study all set to impress their future clients, leading to a drastic increase in their hourly rate from $10 to $150 and even more.

      There are two approaches for everything in life: (1). Try Try and try again until you succeed. I agree with this(your approach). (2). Take risks and go for the big shot every once in a while. I agree with this too (this thread revolved around this approach). Our life should be a mixture of both!

      There is a reason the Goddess of copywriting Jonna Wiebe has recommended this approach for newbies.

      Nothing personal. I respect your opinion, but would like to stick with mine.Cheers!
      Thanks
      Junaid
      Signature

      I am conducting 5 FREE copy consultations till New Year...Jump onto my bandwagon while you still can..

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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Perhaps, I totally missed your point. I know nothing about a 10 dollar an hour rate. Good for your students, they are lucky to have you mentoring them.
        If the guru instructs you to do this, then by all means, carry on.

        As for the "adult approach", probably not the best thing to have written. If you have seen me bragging, I have to think that was more inference than implication.

        So, here is advice, take it or leave it:

        Find the companies you would like to write for, do a wish list. What interests you?

        What do you love to talk about or how do you spend your leisure time? Now, google those things and go 3 to 4 pages deep (50 or more) and look at websites. You will probably find a couple with weak copy. Offer to rewrite it. If it is a sales page, offer it on spec against an A/B split test for X number of visitors.

        It doesn't matter how many sites you need to contact, you just need ONE.

        If you do have any confidence in your writing, draft an outline of how you could improve the page, and ask for a meeting, on Skype or how ever, and see what sort of skepticism you run into.

        By picking a topic you have passion about, you'll be able to communicate in the "lingo" of the topic, be a part of the market they are speaking to.

        Also, you could very cheaply (or your students, who now have a few extra bucks to spend) can purchase some PLR and write your own sales letter and include it in your sig file here at WF. Very little cost involved, and with PLR today, you can find stuff very very cheap. Add StatCounter or other free tracking device, and get a 100 eyeballs on it. You'll learn something.

        It is possible you could actually make a sale or two.

        Especially if you have YOUR #1 under your belt. Which apparently you do. And instead of "getting a chance", you create your own chance to demonstrate your "kick ass sales page", and by doing so, you will ACE it your first shot.

        As for the second step, the "trick", if you find a web site from your google research on a topic you know about and can get excited about, you now can make them the same offer as you outline in the "trick"...

        ****************
        “I won’t be receiving a single penny from you until your product sells. This means your product is as dearer to me as it is to yourself. I will craft an entire campaign strategy, including sales page copy, social media ads, emails, and everything that would be necessary to make your product an overnight hit. In return, I would like you to listen to my advises/instructions precisely and act upon them accordingly (this is crucial). PS my compensation will only be a small percentage on each sale and a permission to use your sales copy as a case study later on.”

        This is a win-win for both parties.


        ************************

        So, the additional trick is now, once you find a site which could use your copy help, you go buy PLR or have it created on a similar or closely related topic, say you found a golf site which sucks eggs, and you are an avid golfer, you can find tons of plr on golf, spiff it up and when you get that 5 to 10% conversion, then YOU can negotiate for them to buy your plr or add it to theirs as an affiliate and convert your income into a 50% affiliate buy.

        As for years involved, I guess I misunderstood due to the subject header of the thread you originally posted:

        What new freelance copywriters must do to land high-paying projects right away?

        So now, I have given you a step by step approach you and your students can use, advice you can put to use today, to cut down the competition and achieve your level of excellence in a shorter time. I took about 90 days, by the way, no brag, just fact.

        I guarantee you Junaid if you choose to follow your guru's suggestion and contact 100 potential clients with your offer, spec work for a %...

        you will have zero competition, except from your students.

        GordonJ


        Originally Posted by Junaid khawaja View Post

        Gordon, thanks for disagreeing and giving your point of view on this.
        You have totally missed the point. Try an adult approach? And how many years does it really took you to achieve your "adult" approach? You have bragged a lot about the results you have achieved over the years...but do you have any better advise for newbies to cut down the competition and achieve your level of excellence in a shorter time than you took? I have a bunch of great copywriters as my students and despite all their expertise and knowledge, they were failing to increase their hourly rate. Why? Because they always worked with low-budget folks who never invest in ads to bring traffic to the copies they were writing. And once they convinced high-budget clients to trust in their abilities and give them a try, things finally turned out for them. Why? Because these copywriters produce a great case study all set to impress their future clients, leading to a drastic increase in their hourly rate from $10 to $150 and even more.

        There are two approaches for everything in life: (1). Try Try and try again until you succeed. I agree with this(your approach). (2). Take risks and go for the big shot every once in a while. I agree with this too (this thread revolved around this approach). Our life should be a mixture of both!

        There is a reason the Goddess of copywriting Jonna Wiebe has recommended this approach for newbies.

        Nothing personal. I respect your opinion, but would like to stick with mine.Cheers!
        Thanks
        Junaid
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        • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          Perhaps, I totally missed your point. I know nothing about a 10 dollar an hour rate. Good for your students, they are lucky to have you mentoring them.
          If the guru instructs you to do this, then by all means, carry on.

          As for the "adult approach", probably not the best thing to have written. If you have seen me bragging, I have to think that was more inference than implication.

          So, here is advice, take it or leave it:

          Find the companies you would like to write for, do a wish list. What interests you?

          What do you love to talk about or how do you spend your leisure time? Now, google those things and go 3 to 4 pages deep (50 or more) and look at websites. You will probably find a couple with weak copy. Offer to rewrite it. If it is a sales page, offer it on spec against an A/B split test for X number of visitors.

          It doesn't matter how many sites you need to contact, you just need ONE.

          If you do have any confidence in your writing, draft an outline of how you could improve the page, and ask for a meeting, on Skype or how ever, and see what sort of skepticism you run into.

          By picking a topic you have passion about, you'll be able to communicate in the "lingo" of the topic, be a part of the market they are speaking to.

          Also, you could very cheaply (or your students, who now have a few extra bucks to spend) can purchase some PLR and write your own sales letter and include it in your sig file here at WF. Very little cost involved, and with PLR today, you can find stuff very very cheap. Add StatCounter or other free tracking device, and get a 100 eyeballs on it. You'll learn something.

          It is possible you could actually make a sale or two.

          Especially if you have YOUR #1 under your belt. Which apparently you do. And instead of "getting a chance", you create your own chance to demonstrate your "kick ass sales page", and by doing so, you will ACE it your first shot.

          As for the second step, the "trick", if you find a web site from your google research on a topic you know about and can get excited about, you now can make them the same offer as you outline in the "trick"...

          ****************
          "I won't be receiving a single penny from you until your product sells. This means your product is as dearer to me as it is to yourself. I will craft an entire campaign strategy, including sales page copy, social media ads, emails, and everything that would be necessary to make your product an overnight hit. In return, I would like you to listen to my advises/instructions precisely and act upon them accordingly (this is crucial). PS my compensation will only be a small percentage on each sale and a permission to use your sales copy as a case study later on."

          This is a win-win for both parties.


          ************************

          So, the additional trick is now, once you find a site which could use your copy help, you go buy PLR or have it created on a similar or closely related topic, say you found a golf site which sucks eggs, and you are an avid golfer, you can find tons of plr on golf, spiff it up and when you get that 5 to 10% conversion, then YOU can negotiate for them to buy your plr or add it to theirs as an affiliate and convert your income into a 50% affiliate buy.

          As for years involved, I guess I misunderstood due to the subject header of the thread you originally posted:

          What new freelance copywriters must do to land high-paying projects right away?

          So now, I have given you a step by step approach you and your students can use, advice you can put to use today, to cut down the competition and achieve your level of excellence in a shorter time. I took about 90 days, by the way, no brag, just fact.

          I guarantee you Junaid if you choose to follow your guru's suggestion and contact 100 potential clients with your offer, spec work for a %...

          you will have zero competition, except from your students.

          GordonJ
          GordonJ, as one of the WF member has mentioned your experience of over 50 years(in copywriting) - this makes me your student lol. Dear, i bow my head. Your strategy above has also added great value into this thread. Thanks for sharing your insights.
          Junaid.
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          I am conducting 5 FREE copy consultations till New Year...Jump onto my bandwagon while you still can..

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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    If you approach a business and offer to do their copywriting for free
    and based on commission only, then that business would know that you
    are new and not want to take a risk with you. You see, a free service
    cost in time and money because the business will have to pay to drive
    traffic to your copy. All that time and money lost (if the copy doesn't
    convert) could be better used with a paid expert copywriter.

    There is nothing wrong in climbing the ladder and charging more as
    your skills improve.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author DABK
    So, you're going to write me copy that converts better than what I have?

    What I have produces something. I'd like it to produce more. But it does produce.

    What you propose to write, how do I know it will produce any results, let alone results better than what I already have?

    I ask because if I take you up on your offer, I have to either replace what I have with what you'll write or pour some money into getting what you will write in front of prospects.

    Either way, it's risky for me. Riskier for me than for you.

    If you're good at what you do, why not do it for yourself? Why not send me copy you wrote that convinces me to take you on and pay you upfront?

    You don't have testimonials, right? And how will you get testimonials if I don't hire you?

    Well, I suggest you find yourself some non-for profit and do some volunteer work. You'll get your testimonial and, on top of that, you'll score karma points, set your soul a step closer to your maker, meet a bunch of cook people and so on and on.

    Why would a shelter for battered women, for instance, take you on when I would not? (In my area, most don't have anything written by a copywriter, so even a beginning copywriter is one step ahead of what they have.)
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    • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

      So, you're going to write me copy that converts better than what I have?

      What I have produces something. I'd like it to produce more. But it does produce.

      What you propose to write, how do I know it will produce any results, let alone results better than what I already have?

      I ask because if I take you up on your offer, I have to either replace what I have with what you'll write or pour some money into getting what you will write in front of prospects.

      Either way, it's risky for me. Riskier for me than for you.

      If you're good at what you do, why not do it for yourself? Why not send me copy you wrote that convinces me to take you on and pay you upfront?

      You don't have testimonials, right? And how will you get testimonials if I don't hire you?

      Well, I suggest you find yourself some non-for profit and do some volunteer work. You'll get your testimonial and, on top of that, you'll score karma points, set your soul a step closer to your maker, meet a bunch of cook people and so on and on.

      Why would a shelter for battered women, for instance, take you on when I would not? (In my area, most don't have anything written by a copywriter, so even a beginning copywriter is one step ahead of what they have.)
      Hi DABK,
      If your copy is working already and producing results, I agree, you won't be taking risk with someone showing up with such an offer. But what about copies who are producing near-to-zero results? Or those start-ups who are just rolling in and needs a copy? In such cases, a product owner might consider this offer lucrative (since he is not paying thousands on copy writing and save $$$ for marketing instead). Another pushing factor (for such a product owner) would be the fact that copy writer's fees depend on the product's success. And so, it is equally important for copy writer to deliver the best of the best.
      Thanks
      Junaid
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  • Junaid & Neshaword,

    Take the lessons and the talk you hear from Gordon seriously and learn from him.

    If you knew who he was, you'd be quick to listen and slow to speak.

    Gordon is one of the last great copy writers who has sat at the feet of some of the old timers you read about.

    Names like Harvey Brody, Ron Ruiz, Bill Myers, Ben Suarez & so on...

    Remember Gordon is a retired professional copy writer, meaning he's got maybe 30, 40 or is it 50 years of copy writing experience behind him.

    Be respectful. You have a life long practicing copy writing teacher in the house, who was blazing trails long before the Internet existed for the average person.
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    • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
      Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

      Junaid & Neshaword,

      Take the lessons and the talk you hear from Gordon seriously and learn from him.

      If you knew who he was, you'd be quick to listen and slow to speak.

      Gordon is one of the last great copy writers who has sat at the feet of some of the old timers you read about.

      Names like Harvey Brody, Ron Ruiz, Bill Myers, Ben Suarez & so on...

      Remember Gordon is a retired professional copy writer, meaning he's got maybe 30, 40 or is it 50 years of copy writing experience behind him.

      Be respectful. You have a life long practicing copy writing teacher in the house, who was blazing trails long before the Internet existed for the average person.
      Hi dear, I strongly believe in giving a good hearing ear to all those having greater experience than myself, As you have said,"Gordon has 50 years of copywriting experience behind him". 50 years is a whooping achievement - 40 years ahead of me! I agree with the strategy he has just posted. It really has added great value into this thread. Cheers!
      Thanks
      Junaid
      Signature

      I am conducting 5 FREE copy consultations till New Year...Jump onto my bandwagon while you still can..

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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by Junaid khawaja View Post

        Hi dear, I strongly believe in giving a good hearing ear to all those having greater experience than myself, As you have said,"Gordon has 50 years of copywriting experience behind him". 50 years is a whooping achievement - 40 years ahead of me! I agree with the strategy he has just posted. It really has added great value into this thread. Cheers!
        Thanks
        Junaid
        Junaid,

        I have been around a long time. And in the remote direct marketing business for over 50 years, and have written a lot of copy...but, and this is my main "issue" today:

        ALL of the greats, ALL of them, had failure. A lot of it. And some of them just got damn lucky. Right place...right time. It happens.

        There were many good and even great copywriters most of you have never heard of, either freelancers or agency people who produced millions in sales. Many women wrote, as seen on MadMen the TV show, no doubt it was a man's game, but there were some great women copywriters going back to the 19th century.

        I'm a historian, sort of, of advertising, having spent a summer copying ads from publications and collecting mail pieces from before the American Civil War.

        Modern mail order, or the first MASS remote direct marketing was made possible because of two things:

        US POSTAL SERVICE
        Railroads from coast to coast.

        Magazines could be delivered almost anywhere, and when Sears and Wards started sending out thousands, then millions of catalogs there was a huge boom in this industry. Today Amazon is the Sears/Wards of yesteryear.

        OK, copy was written early on in newspapers of colonial America.

        The position of copywriter took hold in the 1880's, when Quaker Oats began offering premiums, and used direct mail offers.

        Blah blah blah for the history lesson.

        What happened, and my issue is...

        in the 1980's, it became a Biz-Op. Separated from marketing by a few shrewd and colorful men who seized the opportunity and started mass marketing courses on the ONE part of remote direct marketing, and that is what copywriting is, a PART, albeit a big and an important part of an industry.

        Currently, I've counted over 123 courses on copywriting (before I got tired and quit),,,and most of them make a similar promise:
        ********
        Write copy, every business needs it, wants it and will pay you handsomely for it. Make 100 grand a year while sipping a cool one on the beach of your choice with nothing but a yellow pad (or laptop)...send me 49 (or 9,995) dollars and I'll teach you how.

        ********
        That's pretty much the pitch.

        As a MARKETER, who recognizes the importance of copy writing, I see today, there is a lot of how to write copy and get paid, but very little how to write copy which MAKES SALES.

        And as another Warrior has pointed out, this is the bottom line of the craft. And to understand the craft and art is based much more on understanding human behavior and motivation and persuasion, but not on persuasion gimmicks alone, as many are offering.

        I'm happy to offer advice, and considering it is free here, please feel free to take it or leave it. It is hard for me to let stand some of the nonsense I read and I (now, being a fresh approach to WF) try to offer useful advice.

        The recent rash of posting articles, most of them have been cut and pasted in, which have erroneous information is an issue.

        I get and respect that Freelance makes its dough from being a toll booth between the consumer of content and the creator of content and they built their business on pushing content, it just would be nice to see them have SOME concern with the quality of the content.

        And recently they have shown an effort, which is why I came back to make an equal effort to help and advise when I can. So I'm glad to offer what insights I might have into the marketing arena, but when I see misguided info, I sometimes might respond.

        My BEST advice for new copy writers is, from DAY ONE, write something which tries to sell something and get as many eyeballs (preferably targeted) on your writing as you can. The fastest way to learn is to get your critiques from the wallets of your readers.

        GordonJ
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        • Profile picture of the author Junaid khawaja
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          Junaid,

          I have been around a long time. And in the remote direct marketing business for over 50 years, and have written a lot of copy...but, and this is my main "issue" today:

          My BEST advice for new copy writers is, from DAY ONE, write something which tries to sell something and get as many eyeballs (preferably targeted) on your writing as you can. The fastest way to learn is to get your critiques from the wallets of your readers.

          GordonJ
          Gordon,

          Your views and advises are mere gems. I respect your seniority here and as long as our approaches and strategies are working for us- its a win win. Thank you again for sharing your experience and wisdom.
          Junaid
          Signature

          I am conducting 5 FREE copy consultations till New Year...Jump onto my bandwagon while you still can..

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  • I figure there is a Crass Ceilin' someplace.

    Below it, copywriters thrash in a swamp, eyes trained solely on the Word Count Chalice dangled by chains from above.

    Taglines, sentences, paragraphs flow like unexotic garments from a sweatshop.

    You ain't even got no choice here over when to mop your brow.

    Above the Crass Ceilin' is where the value lies — for you, and for your work.

    Alla the best advice I seen on WF tips you in this direction — toward people who understand the value quality writin' brings.

    An' I figure that leavesya with option of a changea heart.

    There is only so much negotiatin' you can do with people who undervalue writin'.

    Insteada viewin their brief as a platform, they pull it tight round your neck like a garotte.

    But there is always the door.

    It is poised, right there at the backa the sweatshop, invitin' all who have the wit to find it to turn the handle an' walk out.

    Beyond it lies uncertainty, an' if you leave, you could be walkin' to your doom.

    I figure that is the moment the real negotiatin' begins — a real quiet conversation someplace in your head.
    Signature

    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
    Gordon,

    You've given some excellent advice.....

    The one vital aspect I would add is when you're "improving" copy and marketing materials for a website.....

    You need to have a contract in place as to exactly who owns what and the specific terms.... With the Client "in control," it is way too easy for them to skate off with all of your hard work... and pocket all the profits. You'll find yourself in court with no executed contract. That's not a position you ever want to put yourself in.

    If you're being paid on an increase in sales, I'd also include the ability to audit both their corporate financial records and tax returns in the contract. Since you're really entering into a partnership with this business, they should have no issue with complete transparency.

    I really like what some of the service providers do here on WF. They buy and control a "general" domain name related to the market, content, email marketing accounts, etc. They simply setup "affiliate links" on the web site. They get paid the same time as their Client. If the Client ever bails or flakes out, they simply find another Client in that market. This turns all your hard work into an asset. If I were pursuing "improving" copy and marketing materials, this is the approach I'd be tempted to take.
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Best is to have your own attorney to draft these, however, beginners can use a template. Just 2 of many examples:

      FastDue.com - FREELANCE WRITER AGREEMENT

      https://www.rocketlawyer.com/documen...agreement.rl#/

      Be aware and careful how the indemnity clause is written, could cost you dearly. Thanks Rich, good advice.

      GordonJ



      QUOTE=RichBeck;10759083]Gordon,

      You've given some excellent advice.....

      The one vital aspect I would add is when you're "improving" copy and marketing materials for a website.....

      You need to have a contract in place as to exactly who owns what and the specific terms.... With the Client "in control," it is way too easy for them to skate off with all of your hard work... and pocket all the profits. You'll find yourself in court with no executed contract. That's not a position you ever want to put yourself in.

      If you're being paid on an increase in sales, I'd also include the ability to audit both their corporate financial records and tax returns in the contract. Since you're really entering into a partnership with this business, they should have no issue with complete transparency.

      I really like what some of the service providers do here on WF. They buy and control a "general" domain name related to the market, content, email marketing accounts, etc. They simply setup "affiliate links" on the web site. They get paid the same time as their Client. If the Client ever bails or flakes out, they simply find another Client in that market. This turns all your hard work into an asset. If I were pursuing "improving" copy and marketing materials, this is the approach I'd be tempted to take.[/QUOTE]
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  • Profile picture of the author gurutard
    I don't agree with any of this. Not even remotely.

    If you want high paying writing projects straight out of the gate, work for magazines. They always take new writers as long as you know what you're doing.

    As far as doing commercial writing, that is an entirely different beast. The big names do not suck up all the writing projects. They're so bogged down that they're wishing that more people were in their field to take on the writing projects they leave on the table. They need help. That's why they keep telling you their market is open, and they will teach you what you need to know to get into their field.

    They aren't lying. I just finished a course on writing white pages and I've gotten 4 offers already. At $1500 a project, my course paid for itself about 10 times over. And there's plenty more to go around.

    If you want high paying jobs right out of the gate, improve your skills and figure out where to look.
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