Is this Plain Lying or Is Using Fiction Considered Acceptable?

15 replies
I am looking through the Marketplace for Clickbank products in the relationship advice for women niche.

There are a number of products that are selling well in this space looking at the gravity score.

My question is are they lying in the video sales letters or is this type of fiction considered acceptable in copywriting? And of course there is a slim possibility it happened but looking at so many similar stories you would guess that's not the case.

Take a look at a few of these

http://obsessionphrases.com
http://lovetraction.com
http://dramamethod.com

While this type of copywriting seems effective in generating sales, what are the ethical/legal implications of using such copy?

I would be interested in your responses.
#acceptable #considered #fiction #lying #plain
  • Profile picture of the author DABK
    Well, if the first one, obsessive phrases, actually delivers the phrases that chemically alter the brain of the man the woman speaks them to, ain't nothing wrong with it. If they do not, they is lying!

    By the way, any woman out there who wants DABK to love her for who she is, thin or fat, beautiful or ugly: here are the phrases:

    1. DABK, you're amazing.
    2. DABK, you're awesome.
    3. DABK, you're amazingly awesome.
    4. DABK, you're awesomely amazing.

    Bonus phrase for those who purchased before 10-03-16:
    DABK, you have such big hands.

    There, I just save you $49.95 (I think. I didn't have the heart to subject myself to the whole thing).

    Fiction is acceptable if the claim the fiction makes can be backed up... Otherwise, it's not fiction but lying and Google can show you quite a few people who crossed from fiction into lying who ended up paying big fines, or in prison. (And people who've learned from those, so they add fine print: something to the effect that the fiction is actually a lie (in more elegant words). (Like: for entertainment purposes only; not meant as financial advice, even though they're selling financial advice; which always gets my goat.)

    Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

    I am looking through the Marketplace for Clickbank products in the relationship advice for women niche.

    There are a number of products that are selling well in this space looking at the gravity score.

    My question is are they lying in the video sales letters or is this type of fiction considered acceptable in copywriting? And of course there is a slim possibility it happened but looking at so many similar stories you would guess that's not the case.

    Take a look at a few of these

    Secret Words Which Make Him Fall In Love...
    Secret Love Spell...
    Secret Words Which Make Him Fall In Love...

    While this type of copywriting seems effective in generating sales, what are the ethical/legal implications of using such copy?

    I would be interested in your responses.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871344].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
      Thanks for the reply.

      You mention as long as the phrases do the job, it's fine. In essence what I hear you saying is that if the product is solid and the phrases do help women to enchant the men, the sales copy is fine.

      My question is shouldn't the story of what supposedly happened also be true? Then you have mentions of how other women who have supposedly used the phrases to get the results- these are almost like testimonials but they don't have the actual customer quotes.

      Where do you draw the line- I can understand dramatizing an event but what about coming up with a something that never happened. While you did talk a bit about using fiction in your post, I would be interested in hearing if others have used something similar.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871366].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        If you have proof that the phrases do help women, you're good to go. Problem is, how do you prove they do? You make up a story about a situation where the phrases can be used? Why not use a story from a woman who's already bought and used the phrases and swears they helped her?

        The question to ask: is there a legitimate reason to make something up?

        In many years on earth, I've only come across two legitimate reasons to make something up:
        you're protecting the innocent (so you make up names and different cities for them to live in)

        you're writing fiction that you represent as fiction written for the purpose of entertaining.

        If none of the above, the way to go is to say: this happened to one person, who might be totally different from you, so what happened to this person won't happen to you even if you do exactly what I say.

        How do you prove that men that hear a particular phrase have a chemical change in their brain? (Only way I can think of involves killing said man and taking his brain apart. Conclusion: some claims should not be made?)

        Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

        Thanks for the reply.

        You mention as long as the phrases do the job, it's fine. In essence what I hear you saying is that if the product is solid and the phrases do help women to enchant the men, the sales copy is fine.

        My question is shouldn't the story of what supposedly happened also be true? Then you have mentions of how other women who have supposedly used the phrases to get the results- these are almost like testimonials but they don't have the actual customer quotes.

        Where do you draw the line- I can understand dramatizing an event but what about coming up with a something that never happened. While you did talk a bit about using fiction in your post, I would be interested in hearing if others have used something similar.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871421].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
          I guess one reason they push the envelope is unlike the health or weight loss market which is probably better regulated, the relationship market hardly gets that level of scrutiny. Probably that's why they engage in such sales copy? Think about it, if you are selling a weight loss product and claim the product can make you lose 30 lbs in 10 days, you are probably going to be more heavily scrutinized than someone claiming you can get your man addicted to you by typing a few texts or saying a few words.

          Protecting a customer's identity and dramatizing the event is understandable but as I mentioned I doubt this is the case for any of these products.



          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          If you have proof that the phrases do help women, you're good to go. Problem is, how do you prove they do? You make up a story about a situation where the phrases can be used? Why not use a story from a woman who's already bought and used the phrases and swears they helped her?

          The question to ask: is there a legitimate reason to make something up?

          In many years on earth, I've only come across two legitimate reasons to make something up:
          you're protecting the innocent (so you make up names and different cities for them to live in)

          you're writing fiction that you represent as fiction written for the purpose of entertaining.

          If none of the above, the way to go is to say: this happened to one person, who might be totally different from you, so what happened to this person won't happen to you even if you do exactly what I say.

          How do you prove that men that hear a particular phrase have a chemical change in their brain? (Only way I can think of involves killing said man and taking his brain apart. Conclusion: some claims should not be made?)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871447].message }}
  • The Drama Method?

    Yeah, that is so frickin' typical.

    Seems a gal can't expect nuthin' without makin' a scene.

    Tellya, I wanna read fiction, prolly I will dig out sum Stephenie Meyer or Tolstoy.

    I do not require method, an' I do not appreciate my feelings bein' confused with no drama.

    That is why I am angry as hell right now.

    Drama Method?

    Drah Mah Meth Odd?

    Way I feel, I would not be surprised if I woke tomorrow surrounded by the corpsesa dozensa dogs — their heads bitten clean off, their fur pulled tight as floss between my teeth.

    What in hell is the "Drama Method" anyhow?

    Huh?

    Huh?

    Huh?

    Huh?

    Huh?

    Drama Method, my ass!

    An' sum other unsavory parts also.

    Hell — I am gonna go stomp around in the street a while.

    That way, I get to scream Drama Method, my ass! an' ramp up my rage to Drama Method, alla these other people's collective ass! also.

    There is a real stinky guy goes in the liquor store, with the fattest ass on the planet, so yeah, when I pal up with him, things're gonna get real serious, "Drama Method"...
    Signature

    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871403].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      The Drama Method?

      Yeah, that is so frickin' typical.

      Seems a gal can't expect nuthin' without makin' a scene.

      Tellya, I wanna read fiction, prolly I will dig out sum Stephenie Meyer or Tolstoy.

      I do not require method, an' I do not appreciate my feelings bein' confused with no drama.

      That is why I am angry as hell right now.

      Drama Method?

      Drah Mah Meth Odd?

      Way I feel, I would not be surprised if I woke tomorrow surrounded by the corpsesa dozensa dogs -- their heads bitten clean off, their fur pulled tight as floss between my teeth.

      What in hell is the "Drama Method" anyhow?

      Huh?

      Huh?

      Huh?

      Huh?

      Huh?

      Drama Method, my ass!

      An' sum other unsavory parts also.

      Hell -- I am gonna go stomp around in the street a while.

      That way, I get to scream Drama Method, my ass! an' ramp up my rage to Drama Method, alla these other people's collective ass! also.

      There is a real stinky guy goes in the liquor store, with the fattest ass on the planet, so yeah, when I pal up with him, things're gonna get real serious, "Drama Method"...
      I know some of these products and their sales copy raises eyebrows but they are absolutely crushing it on Clickbank and laughing all the way to the bank.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871442].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

        I know some of these products and their sales copy raises eyebrows but they are absolutely crushing it on Clickbank and laughing all the way to the bank.
        Just my opinion. Except for USA (sort of, not really) where "protection" is in place, for the rest of the world, (and real USA)...it is

        Caveat Emptor and "a fool and his money are soon parted".

        Bernie Madoff was crushing it all the way to the bank (until he wasn't)
        So was Kevin Trudeau
        A n d
        Don LaPre
        Sanford Wallace, Shawn Hogan, Brian Dunning, Gary Shawkey,

        let alone the several Warriors who were fined, went bankrupt, had their homes sold at auction.

        Why lie? There are more people crushing it and being truthful than going down that dark alley.

        GordonJ
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871462].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          Just my opinion. Except for USA (sort of, not really) where "protection" is in place, for the rest of the world, (and real USA)...it is

          Caveat Emptor and "a fool and his money are soon parted".

          Bernie Madoff was crushing it all the way to the bank (until he wasn't)
          So was Kevin Trudeau
          A n d
          Don LaPre
          Sanford Wallace, Shawn Hogan, Brian Dunning, Gary Shawkey,

          let alone the several Warriors who were fined, went bankrupt, had their homes sold at auction.

          Why lie? There are more people crushing it and being truthful than going down that dark alley.

          GordonJ
          Gordon,

          I am with you on this and I am not saying what they are doing is right even though they are successful.

          While you would think these type of video sales letters would flop, it's fascinating to see how well they do with the target audience which is all that matters.

          I am helping my client who is in this space and as I was doing research, I shared my observations with him. While he was shocked to find how well they were converting, he also mentioned something interesting- "Well, I guess I know why they come up with such sales copy. As ridiculous as they are for the common reader, it really works because in my pratctice that's the kind of results women say they want. Even when I tell them he is not the right man or just that not into you, they continue to live in their world of denial and these products are perfect fodder for those desperate women."
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871485].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

            Gordon,

            I am with you on this and I am not saying what they are doing is right even though they are successful.

            While you would think these type of video sales letters would flop, it's fascinating to see how well they do with the target audience which is all that matters.

            I am helping my client who is in this space and as I was doing research, I shared my observations with him. While he was shocked to find how well they were converting, he also mentioned something interesting- "Well, I guess I know why they come up with such sales copy. As ridiculous as they are for the common reader, it really works because in my pratctice that's the kind of results women say they want. Even when I tell them he is not the right man or just that not into you, they continue to live in their world of denial and these products are perfect fodder for those desperate women."
            There is the flip side of my opinion, don't prejudice yourself against what your market wants.

            Many people have gotten rich off of the fodder of denial and desperation, I may have to stand corrected on this one. You might want to get some real life examples from his practice, and use those as the fodder for your copy. IF that is what they want, we may be helping our clients by giving it to them.

            Thanks that's a good insight into this market.

            GordonJ
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871705].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

              There is the flip side of my opinion, don't prejudice yourself against what your market wants.

              Many people have gotten rich off of the fodder of denial and desperation, I may have to stand corrected on this one. You might want to get some real life examples from his practice, and use those as the fodder for your copy. IF that is what they want, we may be helping our clients by giving it to them.

              Thanks that's a good insight into this market.

              GordonJ
              What you say is true and it does work for many markets- men desperate to date women, folks desperate to lose weight before their wedding, people desperate to get their ex back etc. As Travis calls these hair on fire niches do work very well partly because they are desperate and that desperation makes them throw logic out of their minds.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10871722].message }}
              • Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

                What you say is true and it does work for many markets- men desperate to date women, folks desperate to lose weight before their wedding, people desperate to get their ex back etc. As Travis calls these hair on fire niches do work very well partly because they are desperate and that desperation makes them throw logic out of their minds.
                Throwin' logic?

                That an Olympic event now?

                Cos I would wanna see sum champs, that place, tellya.

                Javelins, shot putt, archers' pinpoint arrows -- what wayward missiles are these compared to logic's everstrikin' bolts?

                Got logic, you cast from mind to devil-may-care in orderta divide oblivion into functional cogsa spunky.

                Dory kinda hunky.

                Tellya, I "throw logic" any time soon, I am crankin' on Full Ditzo.
                Signature

                Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10872117].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      [QUOTE=Princess Balestra;10871403]
      Drah Mah Meth Odd?

      Yep . . . made me call my nearly octogenarian mom and ask her "Mum youse on the ice again?"

      Oh and while I got you, "How much does that Full Ditzo cost?"

      "Can you get any from your mates?"

      For the OP.

      As for selling to desperate people doesn't mean you need to be so desperate yourself.

      There are plenty of methods to leverage the power of influence without slipping into habits which may ultimately lead to self-destruction.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10872210].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
        [QUOTE=Oziboomer;10872210]
        Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

        Drah Mah Meth Odd?

        Yep . . . made me call my nearly octogenarian mom and ask her "Mum youse on the ice again?"

        Oh and while I got you, "How much does that Full Ditzo cost?"

        "Can you get any from your mates?"

        For the OP.

        As for selling to desperate people doesn't mean you need to be so desperate yourself.

        There are plenty of methods to leverage the power of influence without slipping into habits which may ultimately lead to self-destruction.

        Best regards,

        Ozi
        Thanks Ozi.

        It's been an interesting discussion.

        I would be interested in learning some ethical ways to use stories to sell.

        Would you recommend a story line that has a character going through the typical struggles of what women face in their relationships and then tie it to something like "If this story resonates with you, know you are not alone...."?

        Any other ideas?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10872226].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
          [quote=yourreviewer;10872226]
          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post


          Thanks Ozi.

          It's been an interesting discussion.

          I would be interested in learning some ethical ways to use stories to sell.

          Would you recommend a story line that has a character going through the typical struggles of what women face in their relationships and then tie it to something like "If this story resonates with you, know you are not alone...."?

          Any other ideas?
          I know Russell Brunson always talks of the "attractive character"

          Despite the ability to construct stories based on fictional events you create to match the brief the real power comes when you do blend real life experience or at least draw on other people's real life experience when working on creatives.

          Some of the best stories come about by having a focus on driving a specific idea.

          The key is to include the truth.

          Truth about the product or brand you are promoting.

          The human truth in the story.

          The cultural belief or truth.

          A story that blends all the truths and beliefs together is going to resonate well with the receiver.

          There is a real art in story telling.

          The best way is if you are aware and conscious of the moment you are in where you maybe sharing a story or donating some of your time to listening to others tell you stories and paying attention to what you can use from them.

          For example I had a client the other day who everyone else in my business would prefer NOT to deal with yet I endure the sometimes OCD type approach they have.

          They have shared some excellent stories of discovery personal to their family.

          I won't tell you the story but I will tell you a snippet that I have committed to memory to pull out when needed.

          One relation two generations back posed nude for some famous sculptor who used their study to produce a public mural.

          The man was only a boy at the time...well 16 anyway.

          He was a boxer.

          The family when they passed the public statue - bas relief in sandstone - would say...

          "They saw 'toe-ta' today."

          As in he was always going "toe to toe"

          Now this is in my memory bank for a time when I have to talk about something that might be head to head.

          I'll pull out the "Toe-ta" story and weave it into the conversation.

          It's hard to be adversarial when talking about someone who is innocent and naked and their family would not even look up to their sculpture because of their meekness.

          That may not be a great example but we all hold the ability to remember and recall stories.

          How we use those stories to influence others is the secret.

          As for ethical ways to use stories to sell I would say tell a story that is truthful and congruent to the situation presenting itself then you build more rapport and the selling part becomes more seamless.

          If you are a little psychopathic or can control access to that split personality or multiple personalities you may have an advantage ( just ask Claude)

          Best regards,

          Ozi
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10873303].message }}
      • [quote=Oziboomer;10872210]
        Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post


        Oh and while I got you, "How much does that Full Ditzo cost?"

        Ozi
        Hey -- I am Spuriosity's angel here.

        Burnin' all fuel from my heart.

        Ditzo is firecrackers evryplace

        for sumthin' gonna bust out an' start.
        Signature

        Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10872231].message }}

Trending Topics