Why UPWORK is NOT an IDEAL choice for FREELANCE (COPY)WRITERS?

37 replies
First things first. I need to stress out a couple of points so this thread does not move into the unwanted direction of pointless discussions.

1) Initially, I planned to comment on one of the threads discussing possibilities for freelance copywriters to promote themselves and find work. Among other things this warrior mentioned Upwork. While writing my comment, after a few minutes, I realized that it is going to be much longer than I planned. I am not sure that you can actually "hijack" the thread, but I did not want to find out. So, an independent thread seemed like a better solution.

2) I am not endorsing or criticizing any particular platform for freelancers. I am merely presenting my personal experiences and findings based on simple numbers and facts that can be checked at any given moment in a few seconds.

3) I do not represent any organization of freelance copywriters nor do I claim that my troubles are unavoidable for all people trying to work on Upwork as writers. Actually, I would like to hear how it is possible to overcome these problems. So, let me begin.

Problem #1 - The number of bids/connections.

The overwhelming majority of my clients/projects are "one-timers." I deliver the content for a website, and I am done with the work. I submit a series of 10 or 20 blogs. Done again. A script for a marketing video, etc. After five years and a thousand projects, give it or take, less than a handful of clients stick around for a couple of months. And, I think, only two or three, for a period of few years. That was the nature of my work. So, I do not complain. On the other side, I think that the developers are in a much better position. This is not a rule, but I have witnessed some cases first-hand, which convinced me that is sometimes better to be a developer rather than a writer. There is a guy who introduced me the world of freelancing. I believe that he still works with the client from South Africa. Some development and maintenance a year after a year. He gave up freelancing and now he owns his independent company.

Upwork welcomes you with 60 bids or connections. Having in mind that you need 2 bids per project, you can bid only per one project over a single month. Right? 30 projects for 30 days. Now, if you find a long-term client, you do not have to worry. Obviously, it is much better to be a developer on Upwork, than a writer. Rest assured that I have submitted a dozen emails to Upwork support. I also attended, I do not know how many Upwork events. All the same. We cannot give more bids because we want to prevent spam bids. OK. I get it. So, I asked what I can do to change my situation and improve my chances of winning project? The answer was, pay for a $10 membership fee. Great. What can I get in return. Ten more bids, that was the answer. By the way, you can buy as many bids as you like on Upwork as long as you are willing to pay a dollar per bid/connection. So, you need to pay $2 to bid on a single project, once you run out of your initial free bids package.

Now, let me do the math. Let us say, I want to bid on 10 projects daily. That is like $20 per day. Right? That is $600 per month. Here is a good news. I already have 60 free bids. So, I only need to pay $540. So, how much I need to earn to make this investment be worth it, in the first place? That is my point. If I find a long term client who needs blogs for the indefinite period of time, then I have nothing to worry about. But, let us be real about this one. What are the chances that you will find enough clients to survive as a full-time professional freelancer copywriter on Upwork? I am not even going to mention other freelance platforms. See for yourself. This thread is only about Upwork and my personal experiences and numbers you can easily check, as I promised at the very beginning. There are much better options for me to invest $540 than to see them gone with the wind on Upwork.

Problem #2 - Project prices.

I know this is an individual thing. In addition, when you work as a freelancer you expect the low prices. Yet, what I saw on Upwork was extremely questionable, not to use some other word. Before the famous merging, Elance could be qualified as bearable and acceptable working place in this sense. It seems to me that oDesk brought all the negative rock-bottom-prices with it into the new marriage with Elance. You really need to cry your eyes out to find a project with a decent price expectation. This can actually serve as an introduction to the next problem.

Problem #3 - Closed and privileged circles.

I believe in freelancing as much as I believe in meritocracy. More experienced, dedicated, and eventually affordable freelancers should be given an advantage. Even when they are favored, I am pretty much sure this is something they had to earn with their hard work. There are several promising categories on Upwork for freelancers. You can be a "rising talent" or a "top rated" freelancer. Both categories are perfectly reasonable and justifiable for any freelance platform. Yet, it takes some time for you to get there. I cannot prove it, but I strongly believe that the top clients and projects are out of the reach for the "general population." I was a "rising talent." Then, I got my "top rated" status. Yet, I got nothing special in return. I had to do a lot of sacrifice in both work and unfavorable prices just to get there. All I got was a shiny badge. So, I wrote an open letter to Upwork support. I asked if there were projects you can only bid with an invitation. It turns out that this was true. So, even if you have this "sheriff" badge, there are no guarantees that you will have access to the top paying customers and top quality projects. It is in Upwork's discretion to decide whether or not you are going to be invited. That is OK because Upwork "owns" these clients and projects. It can do with them whatever it likes. Yet, what happened with the principle of transparency and meritocracy? All projects should be open, and then clients should be left with a free choice to choose the most suitable freelancers to work on them. Right?

And the moral of my story is?

You should definitely give Upwork a try. Actually, you should give any freelancer platform a try. Do you know what is the name of the best platform in the world? Well, it is the one with your username on it. It is the one that allows you to make money with fair and decent chances. I gave you 3 reasons why Upwork let me down. Yet, I am still there fighting and trying to find long term working opportunities. Why? Because it is my personal choice, just like it is my right to present figures and facts that prevents Upwork of becoming my ideal place for work.

If you have different experiences, but as a (copy)writer on Upwork, then share it. If you have found a way to overcome these obstacles, then please let me know. Until then, you should think twice before recommending Upwork as an ideal place for writers. I am not saying Upwork is bad, I am just saying it is far from ideal.
#choice #copywriters #copywriting #freelance #freelancers #ideal #upwork
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    You are talking about "copywriting" but your contributions here are "content writing". Not the same thing.

    The overwhelming majority of my clients/projects are "one-timers."
    I was a five star writer on elance before it went to 'upwork' - and the majority of my cleints were not "one time". Within 6 months of beginning to write for a freelance site....75+% of my clients were repeated customers. You need to figure out WHY your clients aren't coming back to you again.

    So, I asked what I can do to change my situation and improve my chances of winning project? The answer was, pay for a $10 membership fee.
    Right - you are paying for access to jobs. Why would you be unwilling to do that? Trick is to have a portfolio and write a bid that gets attention...and gets the job. They are asking you to become a MEMBER for best access to the jobs they are providing for you to bid on.

    What are the chances that you will find enough clients to survive as a full-time professional freelancer copywriter on Upwork?
    Pretty good if you have the skill and are willing to submit many bids daily. The question isn't "would you spend $$$ to pay for more bids" - but "would spending $$$ on bids monthly result in a 4 figure income?"


    I cannot prove it, but I strongly believe that the top clients and projects are out of the reach for the "general population.
    Don't have to prove it - it's true. Top buyers want the best rated providers - what's wrong with that? It's not only having "top rating" but the comments buyers make about your work and the experience of working with you.

    All projects should be open, and then clients should be left with a free choice to choose the most suitable freelancers to work on them. Right?
    Nope - it should be however the owners of the freelance site decide to do it.

    Would not be surprised to learn "free" providers (as opposed to paying $10 membership fee) are not included in the "invitation only" list.
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  • Profile picture of the author neshaword
    KK,

    For ten bucks I get 10 additional bids I can spent on 5 projects. The support was like, but you can see the average, top and low bids of other freelancers, and I was like great. Just the thing I desperately need.

    You have to give something to get something. I get it. I am ready to pay not the miserable $10, but $50 or $100. I am ready to accept the shameless 20% fee. Yet, Upwork plays its stubborn like is the only place for writers in the world.

    Don't know if you know, but there is a notorious Section 7 of their Terms. They literally own you for two years. The client you begin to work with on Upwork is to be treated as Upwork's "property" in terms of fees. That is another crazy story.

    You know KK, I may not be your league, but I deserve a better and a fair treatment, we all do, on Upwork. You were like, I deserve it because I am not a paying member. Once I was. I was and I think still am the Top Rated Upworker with the score of above 90. Have to check.

    But I am not gonna pay $2 to bid on a single project. That's insane.

    Thx.
    N
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Don't know if you know, but there is a notorious Section 7 of their Terms. They literally own you for two years. The client you begin to work with on Upwork is to be treated as Upwork's "property" in terms of fees. That is another crazy story.
    It used to be one year (when it was elance) and I don't see it as "notorious:". They don't own YOU - the provider. They own your CONTACT with buyers and are owed a commission on the work you do THROUGH THE BUYERS THEY PROVIDE TO YOU.

    I don't understand when people want to use a service but resent paying for it. Where else can you find the pool of buyers provided by the freelance sites? If you could do that - you wouldn't be using those sites.

    I took buyers outside the elance site after they'd been sending me work for a year....no problem with elance, buyers were fine with it, more money for me.

    It's not about being in a "league" of writers at all It's about planning and managing your service business. Be careful what jobs you bid on so you aren't wasting $2 on a bid. Make sure you are easy to work with, agreeable with buyers, meet deadlines, etc so buyers WANT to come back to you.

    If you have a good rating for the work you've done - you should pay the $10 to be a member and buy enough 'points' or whatever they call them now to bid on good jobs posted. If you want to work as a writer - you have to go for the jobs. They aren't going to come looking for you.

    I'm not posting this to put you down - you have the skills to do content writing - you've done a lot of it on this forum. There are so many 'providers' who can't spell, can't write, can't use the language that someone who CAN write stands out....but only if you put yourself out there and bid bid bid.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


      It's not about being in a "league" of writers at all It's about planning and managing your service business. Be careful what jobs you bid on so you aren't wasting $2 on a bid. Make sure you are easy to work with, agreeable with buyers, meet deadlines, etc so buyers WANT to come back to you.

      If you have a good rating for the work you've done - you should pay the $10 to be a member and buy enough 'points' or whatever they call them now to bid on good jobs posted. If you want to work as a writer - you have to go for the jobs. They aren't going to come looking for you.
      After two weeks into the month I usually run out of free connections/bids. For what is worth, I write highly personalized texts for my bids. You know, it's not like copy/paste thing. Just can't catch my breath to earn a little bit extra I can invest in bids. I'm not like this, give, give, with nothing to offer in return. See these people all around me. My neighbor. I could/should/would have done it. What's stopping you? Hundred bucks. No comment.

      If only you knew how much money I invested on freelance platforms. Not gonna mention some of them for obvious reasons. I like a situation you pay for a membership and you get X bids and Y fee to pay. And that low blow with a 20% fee. Oh boy, I was among thousands and thousands of freelancers who cried their ears on Upwork official FB page. Sometimes, when I'm on the edge, I like to say that the Great Wizard of Oz will eventually buy Upwork (you know how it is). The trouble, when there's only one superpower in the world, then this isn't a good news because you can do whatever you like.

      I can change because there's no point in running a website that won't get me a single client. All the best seats are already taken. So, I'm grateful. Without these freelance platforms I'm done. I'm a fair player. Upwork gets me a client, I work on Upwork. Why should I risk a situation of being blackmailed by a client who can report me for working outside?

      I'm ready to pay my fees Upwork. I'm ready to change and adapt. Why is it so hard for you Upwork to do the same? Attended dozens of oDesk/Elance/Upwork workshops/conferences/team buildings blah blah.

      Thank you for your time. I really mean it.

      Cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author xx 8c
    I agree with you, I have a fair share of experience with Upwork. I just started a few months back until I get to my Top Rated status. You are correct that having 60 bids a month and 2 bids used per proposal is a great risk especially if you are just a beginner. I share the same sentiment but I choose to stick with the platform since this is the most comfortable platform for me to use plus I already built relationships with my previous clients so there are times that I don't bid and they invite me instead. Great for just a part-time work. I have not tried doing it for long term projects, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by xx 8c View Post

      I agree with you, I have a fair share of experience with Upwork. I just started a few months back until I get to my Top Rated status. You are correct that having 60 bids a month and 2 bids used per proposal is a great risk especially if you are just a beginner. I share the same sentiment but I choose to stick with the platform since this is the most comfortable platform for me to use plus I already built relationships with my previous clients so there are times that I don't bid and they invite me instead. Great for just a part-time work. I have not tried doing it for long term projects, though.
      I am also not giving up on Upwork. Actually, I am thinking about becoming a paying member again. This is a great platform, with a respectable tradition, but it should be better. They are obviously favoring whales, meaning long term paying clients, where people work together for years. I mean, you need to get into the zone of $10K to get the 5% fee. Right now, it is 20%. That's insane. I even asked, are you gonna refund me retroactively when I reach the $10K milestone with one of my clients? No answer. My point, if I can find a client, with whom, I can make $10K, then I don't need Upwork. I can run my own independent business. Do you know how many clients I have that pay me $10K per year? Zero!
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  • Profile picture of the author Digitallabz
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Thx B. Maybe, this torture I have been going through is actually the sign I need to follow. I already have a writer full-time. That's me. I have been dying to make my truly first independent step. What's gonna be? Working on an eBook for a change. Otherwise, I have become aware, I will grow old on one of these freelance platforms, working almost the same like 9-5, including the earnings as well. Spend almost a decade in sales. Until I lost my nerves and health. Selling yourself. Never thought of it this way. Really.

      You don't have to tell yourself you are successful or you are THE writer. Other people are supposed to say so. The numbers should back you up. This way it is like my neighborhood is full of football and movie superstars. They are great, but the system is against them. They just need that something and they will get what they deserve. The last thing my street needs is one more so-called and self-proclaimed artist.

      Thx.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Everything Bryan said.

    I make high four figures per project for e-commerce listings that sell. Guess what it cost me to bid on that?

    Nothing.

    At least, nothing in terms of dollars.

    Instead, I took time to build relationships. Find people that are buying what I'm selling.

    And I damn sure don't have to give a friggin' middle man a cut of what I've earned.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      The game of numbers, as B said. Four figures per project. That's something you ain't gonna see in the freelance world, unless you are working on some mega development or design project for I don't know what.

      The lovely middlemen you are referring to. You know those movies. A guy gets into a prison. There is a "welcome committee." He has to go through tough guys standing on both sides saying him hello with a punch or two. This is how I feel. Pay a project fee. Pay a transaction fee. Pay a conversion fee from USD to EUR. Pay the bank fee. Pay this. Pay that. And then comes a client on the platform you are working and says can we do something about the price.

      I did great in school. My IQ is above average. Maybe I should be a developer. This "creativity game" costs me a lot. At the end of the endless freelance day, my girls at home don't care what I do, they are waiting to see some food on the table and paid bills.

      Appreciated,
      N
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

        The game of numbers, as B said. Four figures per project. That's something you ain't gonna see in the freelance world, unless you are working on some mega development or design project for I don't know what.

        The lovely middlemen you are referring to. You know those movies. A guy gets into a prison. There is a "welcome committee." He has to go through tough guys standing on both sides saying him hello with a punch or two. This is how I feel. Pay a project fee. Pay a transaction fee. Pay a conversion fee from USD to EUR. Pay the bank fee. Pay this. Pay that. And then comes a client on the platform you are working and says can we do something about the price.

        I did great in school. My IQ is above average. Maybe I should be a developer. This "creativity game" costs me a lot. At the end of the endless freelance day, my girls at home don't care what I do, they are waiting to see some food on the table and paid bills.

        Appreciated,
        N
        You know what's really costing you? Not a bidding platform. Not cheapskate clients. Not "creativity".

        It's your own attitude and beliefs.

        You don't believe 4 figs is possible for a project, so you're not even bothering to find out who has those projects.

        Man, there are SO MANY clients out there looking for GOOD, RELIABLE copywriters that most of the writers I know regularly turn away work - they're booked solid.

        Your belief that this is the only place to get clients and your stubborn insistence on refusing to try something else is what's holding you back. That and nothing else.
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  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    15,000 Pounds on Monday

    4,000 Pounds yesterday

    7,000 Pounds today.

    That's how much ad revenue Scott brought in
    by picking up the phone and speaking to buyers in another country.

    Last week it was 25,000 Pounds worth of advertising he sold.

    No prior relationship, no referrals.

    The time to sell them was 30 minutes to signed contract for
    the 15 k deal and 40 minutes for the 7 k deal.

    Just knowing how to package, pitch and find the right people to talk
    to on the phone...plus have a relentless thirst on how it's done,
    is all it takes.

    Scott comes with that internal drive, he comes to me for the rest.

    That's an example of going to buyers and finding the money.

    Today Puma said no to his first pitch. He got them to find the money,
    like I taught him.

    Best,
    Ewen

    P.S. He's selling something that's supposedly dead in the Internet marketing community,
    print advertising.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      First Angie, now you. When I see these numbers, I'm not feeling well. It is just like I am in some other dimension, which is probably true. A game-changing approach is desperately needed.
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  • Hi Neshaword why not market yourself via LinkedIn? As a copywriter you can showcase your skill and attract decision-makers by taking advantage of LinkedIn publishing. Many businesses are also publishing newsletters or doing e-mail marketing. What if aside from bidding in Upwork you also source jobs via LinkedIn?
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Tried that one already. What a huge disappointment, at least for me. Do you remember when LN literally exploded after Upwork brilliantly decided to double its fees? We thought, ho ho this is the moment. LN will change the game. There were lot of disappointed and angry Upworkers looking for alternatives. What happened? Much about LinkedIn nothing. Local stuff. We are hiring a NYC based copywriter.

      I cried my eyes out to find something usable. Even if it says freelancer, it doesn't mean it is for all freelancers all over the world. I ahd to put the magic word "remote" in my search box. And yes, they were so kind to ask thirty bucks or something for the Premium account. For what exactly? Wrote them a letter. Lot of blah blah. Then you go back to your Upwork start page and you say to yourself, you know what, this isn't so bad, not bad at all. So sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author domain finder
    Wow, that was a pretty deep criticism of the Upwork platform and yet, we all agree that we are still there because it has an established base of clients we need. It is true that the fees got a little higher, but given the good relationship with the proper clients you will be able to get over this easily.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by domain finder View Post

      Wow, that was a pretty deep criticism of the Upwork platform and yet, we all agree that we are still there because it has an established base of clients we need. It is true that the fees got a little higher, but given the good relationship with the proper clients you will be able to get over this easily.
      Can we agree that this was a constructive criticism? I was able to go so deep because I have spent a lot of time working there. I'm not satisfied, but I'm not giving up.

      For the sake of all of us, hope Upwork will be able to change some things. Otherwise, Freelancer will acquire it too. I have nothing against the high fees. Allow me to find clients and do some work and charge me how much you think it's fair.

      Again, I have nothing against the fee system, but the bid system isn't good at all. That's killing the business.

      Thank you for your reply.
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  • The thing is, there is something that Upwork is providing you and that is an guarantee that you are going to be paid. Think about it, it is risky to enter into a freelance contract if you are unsure of how you are going to be paid and Upwork mitigates that risk, they have improved immensely in the way they guarantee payments for freelancers and that's the reason why we still trust and use their services.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Yes, the best thing from the merging with Elance is the protection for the fixed price projects. Remember? Great. Now, how about some changes of the bid policy, membership and all associated with it?!
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  • Profile picture of the author themodernworld
    I'm new to this and it's clear to me that Upwork is not a place you need to be in the long haul.

    You need to find your own clients and do the research.

    Most of the rates are lower than minimum wage in the US. Some copywriters might be able to make it work for a while, but the question they have to ask is, could they be doing better if they found their own clients?

    The more competition you have when applying, the better position it is for the client.

    It is much better to start developing relationships with people who value your work and your time. Coming from a different position where I've hired freelancers, a reliable freelancer who can meet deadlines and produce quality work is worth their weight in gold.

    If you're able to be that person for a business, you won't need Upwork. You can cut out the middle man.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by themodernworld View Post

      I'm new to this and it's clear to me that Upwork is not a place you need to be in the long haul.

      You need to find your own clients and do the research.

      Most of the rates are lower than minimum wage in the US. Some copywriters might be able to make it work for a while, but the question they have to ask is, could they be doing better if they found their own clients?

      The more competition you have when applying, the better position it is for the client.

      It is much better to start developing relationships with people who value your work and your time. Coming from a different position where I've hired freelancers, a reliable freelancer who can meet deadlines and produce quality work is worth their weight in gold.

      If you're able to be that person for a business, you won't need Upwork. You can cut out the middle man.
      Right. If you can find the clients on your own, then you don't need middlemen. How to do it? That's an art.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        Beef up your self-confidence and you'll see them too. I don't mean to be flip, but when you're looking for clients with 10k a month in revenue, you're going to notice a lot of those, think a lot about those, at the expense of the 10 million a month, for instance.

        Look through the clients you had through Upwork. What do they have in common. Make yourself a nice list of all the features you can think of. Especially the ones that hired you more than once.

        Now, approach similar companies on your own. You know you can satisfy them.

        Then, find yourself companies that are bigger (in terms of revenue or advertising dollars spent), up your game, approach them... Worst thing that can happen, they tell you No and you're in the same place as when you started.

        Who would you work with, ideally? Do you have a list of such companies?

        If not, why not?

        If yes, find ways to talk to whoever hires copywriters.

        It's not an art. It's a series of planned actions. Not thoughts, criticisms, whining. And the belief that you deserve to be paid whatever it is you are asking for (backed, of course, by the ability to deliver).

        Identify 100 ideal clients.
        Study ideal clients.
        Identify who makes the decision to hire a copywriter.
        Prepare something that convinces them you're worth hiring.
        Present that something to the person(s) who decide which copywriter(s) will be working on their next project.

        Hint: there's a direct correlation between how much you can get from a client and how much that client stands to make from your efforts.

        Put another way, if you help someone that makes $1k a month in revenue make 25% more; he doesn't have much to give you. If you help someone who's making $10,000,000 a month make 1% more, he/she/it has some real money to give you for your help.

        Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

        First Angie, now you. When I see these numbers, I'm not feeling well. It is just like I am in some other dimension, which is probably true. A game-changing approach is desperately needed.
        Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

        Right. If you can find the clients on your own, then you don't need middlemen. How to do it? That's an art.
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  • Profile picture of the author ocomok
    Like it or not, at the end of the day, Upwork is still a business. It mediates between clients and freelancers in the most effective manner, you can set your compensation, choose projects to work on, and establish your freelancing career. Contrary to your point, I believe that Upwork is a great site for freelance copywriters especially the ones who are just starting, it creates an avenue for them to learn the ropes and as mentioned establish themselves in their chosen career.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Whether it's Upwork, freelancer or any of the other bidding sites, there are both positives and negatives.
    Starting with the positives, I have been writing for 7 years and my first client was off Odesk (now included in Upwork). I still retain that client to this day.
    In the first couple of years 95% of my work came from bidding sites or this forum.
    Then things started to change a bit. I became better known and was sent referrals. Some work came simply from people Googling keywords. I have various other sources as well.

    The positives mean that you CAN make money but in some cases, your income per job may be low, especially in the beginning.

    As for negatives. I see two main points.
    1. There are lots of jobs and a LOT more bidders willing to accept peanuts to do those jobs.

    2. A lot of advertisers don't give enough information for a freelancer to decide if he can do the job or not. The system is set in such a way that you have to place a bid just to ask questions, which I find ridiculous.

    Anyway, that's all my 3 cents worth.
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    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Neshaword, your problem is NOT Upwork.

    Your problem is client retention. In other words, keeping quality clients.

    In your situation, spending so much time and money bidding is indicative.

    So the question becomes "Why? Why are you not retaining clients?"
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  • Profile picture of the author esta tedch
    I have been working in Upwork for several years now, while it is true that their rates have increased there are still a lot of benefits in choosing this platform. I personally like the fact that the jobs are diverse, you could easily run from one profession to the other given the proper training and support. True, that it could be difficult but that is because there is competition and you have to up your game to be part of the top.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Things have definitely changed a lot. That's my first-hand experience talking. I'm just saying that Upwork could and should run the things much better. My thread is more of an appeal than a critic with no ground and easy to verify arguments. It takes years and I think almost a decade to build such a platform. Yet, it only takes a couple of wrong moves, including the unreasonable 20% fee to ruin it (completely). Thx. N
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  • Profile picture of the author EDWARD COLLEY
    As a long time freelancer in Upwork, having a good long term client is beneficial. I have just reached the 10% mark with one of my clients and having the 20% fee down to 10% is really awesome. I think the way they have reorganized the platform is great in such a way that it promotes long term client - contractor relationship. Plus the fact that your earnings are secure, I would still say, it is one if not the best platforms for freelancers out there (not only with copywriters). The key is always being open to change, flexible and adapt accordingly.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by EDWARD COLLEY View Post

      As a long time freelancer in Upwork, having a good long term client is beneficial. I have just reached the 10% mark with one of my clients and having the 20% fee down to 10% is really awesome. I think the way they have reorganized the platform is great in such a way that it promotes long term client - contractor relationship. Plus the fact that your earnings are secure, I would still say, it is one if not the best platforms for freelancers out there (not only with copywriters). The key is always being open to change, flexible and adapt accordingly.
      Edward,

      You're on the right way to reach even the most important point and that's 5%, if I'm not mistaken. You are one of the few that I have heard to be able to hit this generous Upwork "reward." I always wanted to ask. Does it work retroactively? Meaning what's happening with the fees you paid in the amount of 20%, and now you're paying "only" 10%?

      Good luck and thanks,
      N
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  • I use Upwork quite frequently. I've met some great clients through it, and my retention rate for clients on-site is pretty high. Something like 27%. The number is kind of skewed, as I've had a number of people move off the site and contact me privately later. Most of those who didn't continue to use me were single jobs.

    Now, I don't only pick up clients on Upwork but I do usually start there when things slow down and I make ~10 bids per month on average, I was exclusive on the site for the first five months of my career. Having thirty is a luxury, and I've never actually used all of them.

    When I first began, finding that first couple of jobs took me a couple of weeks. Which is normal, I had no idea what I was doing when it came to proposals. I now have to be careful when things slow down, even cherry picking jobs where I can tell the client knows what they're doing and is willing to pay I can rapidly end up in a bind with too much work.

    I have a bit of a portfolio and some testimonials now. I quickly caught on to the fact that I should start picking up more work as soon as things start to slow down rather than when I've got nothing on my plate, but since I'm never starved for work my proposals are basically "I'm good at what I do. I'm professional. Let me take care of this for you. Here're some samples."

    The 20% fee is pretty ridiculous, but honestly looking over my list right now I basically have no one who's not going to be back to the old rate in a couple of weeks and the few who are just shoot me some work on occasion that I can complete in an hour or two.

    I haven't been in this game this long, but I've had basically NONE of the issues people complain about on Upwork except for clients expecting the moon for 1c/word, in which case I complete their first milestone and get out of there. I rarely touch anything under 2c/word unless I have a strong personal interest in the subject anyways.

    If you're good at what you do and interested in a job despite the low rate, a lot of times you can just make a proposal going, "Look, I like the project. I want to be involved. I'm good. Here're samples. I charge X, if you're serious then let's do this." You'd be surprised how often this works.

    The fee restructure is actually what got me looking into doing other things, coming up with plans and crawling forums like this. The platform itself is pretty solid.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by TheLiterateJester View Post

      Something like 27%.

      10 bids per month on average. Having thirty is a luxury, and I've never actually used all of them.

      I haven't been in this game this long, but I've had basically NONE of the issues people complain about on Upwork except for clients expecting the moon for 1c/word, in which case I complete their first milestone and get out of there. I rarely touch anything under 2c/word unless I have a strong personal interest in the subject anyways.

      If you're good at what you do and interested in a job despite the low rate, a lot of times you can just make a proposal going, "Look, I like the project. I want to be involved. I'm good. Here're samples. I charge X, if you're serious then let's do this." You'd be surprised how often this works.

      The fee restructure is actually what got me looking into doing other things, coming up with plans and crawling forums like this. The platform itself is pretty solid.
      1) 27% is pretty much accurate. When you combine the 20% fee with the money transfer rates and stuff, you really end up with a number such as this, although I didn't want to bother to see how much it is actually.
      2) If you can find a job with only 10 bids per month that's really great. Either you hit the right projects, which provide you with enough work, or you are not so much dependent on these platforms as I am.
      3) I don't know what you do, but this price indication of 2c/word tells me that you write. Now, if understand correctly, math is definitely not my strong side, when I translate this into more understandable 100 words zone, this is like $2/100 words. Right?
      4) I would definitely give your direct approach a try. Very often, at least for me, the price as I see in the project description is the price I eventually get. The clients weren't willing to negotiate it.
      5) I'm also looking for alternatives. Would be interesting to hear about your plans, if they aren't treated as a business know-how secret. I'm not a forum crawler. This one is associated directly with Freelancer, this is how it attracted my attention to be honest. I have never treated as a source of clients and new jobs. I also agree that Upwork is more than a solid platform, but it really could have been better, that's all.
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      • Originally Posted by neshaword View Post

        1) 27% is pretty much accurate. When you combine the 20% fee with the money transfer rates and stuff, you really end up with a number such as this, although I didn't want to bother to see how much it is actually.
        2) If you can find a job with only 10 bids per month that's really great. Either you hit the right projects, which provide you with enough work, or you are not so much dependent on these platforms as I am.
        3) I don't know what you do, but this price indication of 2c/word tells me that you write. Now, if understand correctly, math is definitely not my strong side, when I translate this into more understandable 100 words zone, this is like $2/100 words. Right?
        4) I would definitely give your direct approach a try. Very often, at least for me, the price as I see in the project description is the price I eventually get. The clients weren't willing to negotiate it.
        5) I'm also looking for alternatives. Would be interesting to hear about your plans, if they aren't treated as a business know-how secret. I'm not a forum crawler. This one is associated directly with Freelancer, this is how it attracted my attention to be honest. I have never treated as a source of clients and new jobs. I also agree that Upwork is more than a solid platform, but it really could have been better, that's all.
        The 27% was my on-site client retention rate for jobs lasting over three months, not related to the fees. Considering I quite often pick up jobs I know are one offs but I'm interested in on an intellectual level(say rock collecting or nootropics), I'd say that I probably end up keeping 75% of the clients I attempt to engage for long term work.

        I don't forum crawl. I don't even bug people on social media. I work with my clients. Some of them I become friendly with. I ask them for referrals when their project slows down. I have some testimonials for when I launch a website offering my services, but right now I've got no need to since I'm pretty much slammed all the time.

        I mean, this is all basic stuff, dude. Do good work, get on good terms with clients, network, find more clients, stay on good terms with them. Networking that way has worked exceptionally well for me.

        I'm not super experienced, I published a couple short stories a decade ago in high school and I ran a column for a political rag for awhile. I got serious about freelancing in February of this year and didn't even know how to write a proposal since everything else I'd been paid for I'd just kind of fallen on.

        Now it's pretty rare that I can even get off of a shift at my "day job" without someone needing something.

        I mean that literally. I just got contacted by a client I haven't spoken to in months while typing this post up. Small job, but at a decent rate. Slot it in tomorrow to make sure I maintain trust with the client. Bam, done. I might even do it tonight.

        I might be a lot better than I think I am as a writer, but mostly I think it's just the fact that I'm professional, work hard and understand what I'm expected to deliver. The fact that people who are monetizing my work continually approach me for new work is a good indication that I'm making them money, which means I've upheld my end of the bargain.

        It's not about platforms, I don't think there's any kind of "trade secret" going on, I just do my job well. I'm a solid writer. I have good research skills. I'm fast. I'm confident in my abilities but know I'm not the best writer on the internet so I make up for that lack by making sure I ALWAYS deliver and ALWAYS act professionally.

        You just have to put the work in, there's no "secret" out there that'll turn you into a constantly booked writer overnight.

        As far as plans: I'll likely be starting a website marketing my services soon. I'm kind of new to marketing myself beyond shooting out proposals, so I'm trying to make some decisions regarding branding, etc. I'll promote on social media, charge more than I currently do, and keep upping the prices until I hit a ceiling. I mean, basic "offering services" stuff.

        After that, I have a roughly sketched out idea that IS a secret as I haven't seen anyone else doing it thus far and I've been looking for a couple of weeks.
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  • Profile picture of the author teresarothaar
    I generally apply to only three to five jobs a month on Upwork. Most of the ads there are garbage, people wanting articles for a penny a word or less and other such nonsense. If you're using up all of your connects, you are likely bidding on lots of garbage ads. I don't go for garbage ads. I go for the "whales," the people who look like they're willing to pay $50.00/hour or more for specialty content. As I mentioned in the other thread, I've carved out a little niche in the cyber security sector. Those people are willing to pay more for writers with at least some IT knowledge.

    Also, since I have an excellent feedback rating on Upwork, I get a lot of invites. Most of them are garbage, too, but I just finished up a short press release job for a company who was more than happy to pay my rates. Like Bryan said, this guy was looking to expand his [big data-related] business and land new contracts worth tens of thousands of dollars. He wasn't hoping to get another buck a day off his Amazon affiliate site. =)

    I have one low-dollar client, but it's not a writing client. It's a proofreading client, and it's more like a part-time job than a freelance gig, as I work defined "shifts" four hours a day, five days a week. This job doesn't pay much, but the work isn't that hard -- we proofread spelling, grammar, and punctuation, and that's it -- it gives me some money during slow times, and I don't have to leave my house to get it. (I have managed to cut back on this job over the past year, and I'd like to ultimately cut it out completely. It's hard to let go of this nice "security blanket.")
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by teresarothaar View Post

      I generally apply to only three to five jobs a month on Upwork. Most of the ads there are garbage, people wanting articles for a penny a word or less and other such nonsense. If you're using up all of your connects, you are likely bidding on lots of garbage ads. I don't go for garbage ads. I go for the "whales," the people who look like they're willing to pay $50.00/hour or more for specialty content. As I mentioned in the other thread, I've carved out a little niche in the cyber security sector. Those people are willing to pay more for writers with at least some IT knowledge.

      Also, since I have an excellent feedback rating on Upwork, I get a lot of invites. Most of them are garbage, too, but I just finished up a short press release job for a company who was more than happy to pay my rates. Like Bryan said, this guy was looking to expand his [big data-related] business and land new contracts worth tens of thousands of dollars. He wasn't hoping to get another buck a day off his Amazon affiliate site. =)

      I have one low-dollar client, but it's not a writing client. It's a proofreading client, and it's more like a part-time job than a freelance gig, as I work defined "shifts" four hours a day, five days a week. This job doesn't pay much, but the work isn't that hard -- we proofread spelling, grammar, and punctuation, and that's it -- it gives me some money during slow times, and I don't have to leave my house to get it. (I have managed to cut back on this job over the past year, and I'd like to ultimately cut it out completely. It's hard to let go of this nice "security blanket.")
      A fellow "whale" catcher, that's good to hear, lol.

      Now, the main problem is, I know what to do when I catch a whale, but what to do when you wait for one to award you the project? I see you are a patient and self-confident catcher. I have to admit that I lack courage or whatever that could be. Instead of saving my energy and waiting for the right client and project to arrive, I fly around from project to project, small in size and very unrewarding in price. The worst part is, sometimes I'm totally exhausted when the whale finally arrives.

      That's the problem with the bad clients. They kill you twice. First time when they take away the energy you invested in your current project. Second time when they send you to the next client in the bad mood. Will try to learn some of your patience lessons, that's for sure.

      Thx,
      N
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  • Profile picture of the author Cloudsair
    Banned
    Great informative news, I also gave Truelance.com a try and now I write blog posts, they also have me writing on another blog. It's volunteer work tho.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by Cloudsair View Post

      Great informative news, I also gave Truelance.com a try and now I write blog posts, they also have me writing on another blog. It's volunteer work tho.
      Haven't heard of it, to be honest, but I will have a look. Thx for your suggest.
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    Look, from a statistical point of view, UpWork sucks. So does every other board. There are over 500.000 freelancers in the "writing category". The fact that they push the price down is real. I lived in London and I've lived in Malaysia for three weeks and I understand how $100 can be two or three times more valuable in one place than in another.

    However, from a practical point of view, this is hardly relevant. There are million dollar marketers looking for services on Fiverr. If they like you and you can sell yourself, you can jump from $5 to $500 or $5000 within one project. The same can be said about any other freelancing board. Some people can't afford paying more than $100 or so but others can pay $10.000 without a problem.

    It is your job to establish a relationship with that person so you can be paid up to your true worth. Most copywriters are broke because they forget about this part. They prefer on writing copy and they forget that you can be brilliant - but if nobody knows you, that won't help you a lot.

    I suggest that you read "How To Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. In an ideal world, your income is a direct representation of your skill level. In our world, brilliant copywriters go months without work because they can't sell themselves and mediocre ones have huge waiting lists because they've invested the time in building a network. The ideal distribution would be 50% to get to know the right people and 50% to write copy. When this happens, you don't need to use freelancing boards anymore.
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    • Profile picture of the author neshaword
      Originally Posted by RogozRazvan View Post

      It is your job to establish a relationship with that person so you can be paid up to your true worth. Most copywriters are broke because they forget about this part. They prefer on writing copy and they forget that you can be brilliant - but if nobody knows you, that won't help you a lot.

      I suggest that you read "How To Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. In an ideal world, your income is a direct representation of your skill level. In our world, brilliant copywriters go months without work because they can't sell themselves and mediocre ones have huge waiting lists because they've invested the time in building a network. The ideal distribution would be 50% to get to know the right people and 50% to write copy. When this happens, you don't need to use freelancing boards anymore.
      Great points Rogoz, my kudos to you for that. Especially the part when you saw for yourself first-hand how hundred bucks can mean a lot in the different parts of the world. Yet, this shouldn't be an excuse for some of mine or our colleague writers to kill the decent prices over and over again. I will definitely check out the book you just recommended. I have tried to do something in terms of self-promotion on LinkedIn, but obviously I made the wrong turn somewhere. Will give it another try. Hopefully a better one this time. Thx.
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