"Who else wants to"...skip this product?

37 replies
I was just looking for affiliate products for a new site and realized I was skipping every single product on CB where the pitch page began with "who else wants to..."

I wasn't reading the pitch page but just moving on immediately when I saw that "who else" headline. When I realized I was doing that, I stopped to think why I would ignore those products.

Simple - it's so overused by marketers that when I see the headline on a CB product, I simply assume the product is not by an expert in the field. Instead, I'm more likely to think "outsourced an ebook".

When everyone jumps on one bandwagon, the axle may break. I don't know if the general public would have the same reaction I did...but they may not be far behind. On ONE CB page of results over 2/3 of the pitch pages had exactly the SAME "who else wants to" as the beginning of their headline. (and these niches were not in IM or anywhere close to it)

kay
#product #who else wants toskip
  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    Kay,

    As copywriters and affiliate marketers, we're exposed to the "who else wants..."
    headline way too often, and hence it's natural that we'd be bored/tired of it.

    But when you look at it from a general person's view, I don't think they'd notice
    it much.

    In fact, to an ordinary reader, the who else headline could be right on the button
    and could convert better than any other headline.

    That's what we're all looking for eventually, isn't it? -- bigger conversions and
    more sales!


    - Dean
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Long after the average internet user had developed "banner blindness" marketers were still advising others to put banners on their sites.

      Knowing when a catchy phrase may be overused (if that's the case) means you stay ahead of the crowd.

      When 3 of 5 products in a very narrow niche that is non-IM have the same wording in the headline, that tells me to write something different

      I know many posted quite some time ago that the "who else" worked well - but has anyone tested it lately? I'd be interested to know that.

      kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli View Post

      As copywriters and affiliate marketers, we're exposed to the "who else wants..." headline way too often, and hence it's natural that we'd be bored/tired of it.

      But when you look at it from a general person's view, I don't think they'd notice it much.
      Actually...

      I wrote the sales page for an offline client who does custom woodwork in March of this year and used the headline:"Who Else Wants to Own One of the Finest Blah Blah Blah"...

      I looked at the website a week later and it was changed to "You Also Can Own One of the Finest Blah Blah Blah..."

      I called him and asked why he changed the headline, and he told me the one I wrote was too 'in-your-face' salesy and it made him uncomfortable.

      He had never seen or noticed that headline anywhere else and I had to explain to him the subliminal social proof that headline taps into. He changed it back.

      KJ
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      • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
        The two "Who Else" headlines cited by Schwab in his list of 100 great
        headlines are both targeted at American housewives or single girls
        from the 1930s or so: the "Who Else" appeal is a very real pushing
        of a social program button: keeping up with the Joneses.

        In the case of the "Whiter Wash - Without the Hard Work" headline
        also embedded within the appeal of a whiter wash, because
        in those days laundry was hung out and neighbors actually
        DID see one another's laundry, is the further appeal that not
        only could you have the whitest wash in the neighborhood,
        you could have it without the ass-busting labor you were
        used to.

        That's a truly potent appeal to a marketplace which, as
        a frozen moment in time, was ripe for such innovation.

        Few products these days launched with a "Who Else..."
        headline has such potent real appeal.

        The other "...Wants a Screen-Star Figure" taps into women's
        desire to fit into current notions of beauty. A powerful
        appeal.

        Both headlines are undoubtedly obsolete.

        In their time they were potent selling messages tapping
        into social anxiety, cleverly layered with other appeals
        as well.

        Today social anxietyies are considerably more spread-out:
        nobody sees the same movies so the potent influence of
        the screen star figure is diffused. You could argue that
        the term still means something, but in the 60 years or so
        since the headline was used for a reducing product (girdle?)
        the market for weight-loss products has been sliced and
        diced every which way. We live in more jaundiced times
        and that simple appeal probably won't work anymore.

        That's just my view. Markets mature and the verbiage
        that worked in the old days simply isn't socially relevant
        anymore.

        "Who Else Wants A Cash-Sucking Headline - Without All The Hard Work?"

        Despite my opinion that it's a real hackneyed opener, it
        is still in use in some successful salesletters and it's also true
        that most people don't memorize or particularly notice headlines;
        they just read stuff that offers them a selfish advantage -
        the headline that grabs he reader's attention and gets him
        to look at the offer accomplishes that goal, no matter
        if it's cliched or awkward.

        The large part of the problem with the "Who Else", and for that
        matter "How To" openers is that a lot of writers try to sell
        the product in the headline, which often leads to verbosity
        and clunkiness in the headline itself.
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  • Kay;

    In IM, this has a definite impact... Sales copy that follows the typical formulas, and rehashes the same old swipes aren't pulling like they used to. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happening in other niches as consumers become more "IM Aware".

    It doesn't necessarily mean the product is bad... And in some cases it doesn't mean the copywriter was bad either.

    Great example of the mantra I like to repeat to my clients - just because it doesn't look like what "everyone else" is doing, doesn't mean it won't work. If we don't do anything different, we can't do anything BETTER! Change breeds innovation

    - Cherilyn
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Kay,

    It's purely and simply due to the glut of cookie cutter writing infoproducts that "train" marketers to become "kick ass" copywriters by joining a copywriting sweatshop, following a simple writing system and stealing the secrets and swipe files of lesser men than those that preceded them.

    They even advocate becoming a marketing rebel via the nonsensical practice of advising aspiring artists to work to prescripted heuristics.

    Then the "genius" of these "best copywriters in the world" is handed down via IM gurus (for a commission) to the grasping masses and relayed through a process akin to Chinese whispers on web forums and held up as gospel.

    Finally, this third or more hand garbled information is rehashed, ripped off and trotted out into the market as a revolutionary writing system and the whole sorry cycle continues...

    rant over.



    Tom

    P.S. the problem with the web, to paraphrase Seth Godin, is that everyone thinks they're an expert when, frankly, they're not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      It's purely and simply due to the glut of cookie cutter writing infoproducts that "train" marketers to become "kick ass" copywriters by joining a copywriting sweatshop, following a simple writing system and stealing the secrets and swipe files of lesser men than those that preceded them.
      The birth of the Kiss Ass copywriters...

      "Who Else Wants to be a Kiss Ass Copywriter?"


      I'm sorry Tom, I couldn't resist.

      Your statement holds a lot of truth. It's a downward spiral when the copiers are copying the copiers who copied the copiers.

      This never worked very well with faxes, and it doesn't hold a lot of promise for writers, either.


      KJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      It's purely and simply due to the glut of cookie cutter writing infoproducts that "train" marketers to become "kick ass" copywriters by joining a copywriting sweatshop, following a simple writing system and stealing the secrets and swipe files of lesser men than those that preceded them.

      They even advocate becoming a marketing rebel via the nonsensical practice of advising aspiring artists to work to prescripted heuristics.

      Then the "genius" of these "best copywriters in the world" is handed down via IM gurus (for a commission) to the grasping masses and relayed through a process akin to Chinese whispers on web forums and held up as gospel.

      Finally, this third or more hand garbled information is rehashed, ripped off and trotted out into the market as a revolutionary writing system and the whole sorry cycle continues...

      rant over.



      Tom
      I can't be sure, but... am I sensing a teeny, tiny, bit of negativity toward a certain copy guru?

      Johnny
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

        I can't be sure, but... am I sensing a teeny, tiny, bit of negativity toward a certain copy guru?

        Johnny
        Hi Johnny,

        Well spotted, but not really. The names of some of Carlton's products just lent themselves to the prose. There's a dash of Clayton in there too.



        Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author EaglePiServ
    One word pops to mind - "test". I have no need for a "Who else wants to..." lead-in, but if I did, I'd test it against something else and see which becomes the control. Dean makes a good point in that we're saturated with these kinds of lines, so they impact us negatively. The average punter may not be nearly as exposed to these phrases.

    Test, test, then test again :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      I try to avoid it. Even though I don't think Joe Public cares either way. It is a great way to infer a bandwagon is rolling, but there are other less "pat" ways to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by EaglePiServ View Post

      One word pops to mind - "test". I have no need for a "Who else wants to..." lead-in, but if I did, I'd test it against something else and see which becomes the control. Dean makes a good point in that we're saturated with these kinds of lines, so they impact us negatively. The average punter may not be nearly as exposed to these phrases.

      Test, test, then test again :-)
      Finally...the voice of reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    You'll find that a marketer will get fed up of his marketing
    a lot quicker than the prospect does. Don't abandon
    something simply because you are tired of seeing it.
    Make sure that it doesn't work anymore.

    Do you know how long "How to ... " headlines have been
    working. And marketers won't stop using those two magic
    words simply because "everybody" else is doing it.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I'm with you Kay. I think it's way too over-used. I use it very rarely - only if it has real impact. Like this one I used some time ago in a WSO -

    "Who Else Wants a Frontal Lobotomy?"


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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

      I'm with you Kay. I think it's way too over-used. I use it very rarely - only if it has real impact. Like this one I used some time ago in a WSO -

      "Who Else Wants a Frontal Lobotomy?"


      This makes little sense to me. You want your cake and still eat it? :confused:

      Are we to assume that all those letters in CB were written by
      the same copywriter? So if you use it RARELY, so could all the
      hundreds of copywriters in CB as well.

      If you think that it is overused then you shouldn't use it.
      So you are not with Kay. If you were, you wouldn't use
      it.

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

        Why are we focusing on "who else" headline starters? Why not toss
        in "how to" as being overused?

        As I made my transition from marketing to direct response marketing
        I realized I am not to assume or act on my feelings. Test = truth

        How many of us could go on and on about tired-ass cliche methods
        that date back to stone carvings... we hate them all.

        Why is it "who else" and friends survive the times? If we are all so
        sick of it and they are not working, why are they still here?

        Are there any ads that are producing well using them?

        I think the important piece of the headline comes after the "who else".


        "Who Else Wants 57 Cutting Edge Headline Openers Guaranteed to Get People Reading Your Ad"

        Well said, Paul!

        All of it.

        But especially the part about the important piece being after the "who else".

        You're promoting an offer to a prospect. Not yourself. The headline is there simply to grab your prospect's attention.

        A.I.D.A, right?

        It's the prospects opinion of the headline that matters. Let them vote with their wallet.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        This makes little sense to me. You want your cake and still eat it? :confused:

        Are we to assume that all those letters in CB were written by
        the same copywriter? So if you use it RARELY, so could all the
        hundreds of copywriters in CB as well.

        If you think that it is overused then you shouldn't use it.
        So you are not with Kay. If you were, you wouldn't use
        it.

        -Ray Edwards
        What doesn't make sense? As I said, I've used that head rarely - twice in fact - including once in a WSO. Which means exactly what I said - I "rarely" use it. I think it over-used, trite, cheesy, off-the-pace, old-fashioned, corny and annoying. And in that respect - I'm with Kay. That clear enough for you or do you want to argue the toss over nothing?

        You desperately need to read "Knots" by R.D. Laing.

        - Metronicity - "copywriter to the gentry".

        BTW: 10 of the 18 links to your sales pages on your Portfolio page are Dead Links - including one which is listed as an "attack site".
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        • Profile picture of the author tomw
          Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

          You desperately need to read "Knots" by R.D. Laing.
          I just noticed this. Maybe harsh. Definitely amusing. Probably appropriate.



          Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    Interesting discussion ...no. wait. I meant to say boring.

    I, for one, think the trashing of the "who else" headline has now become the who else of thread topics.

    Testing is fine, but how about an alternative which is roughly equivalent, but better? What is the crux of who else? Why does it work, and how do you go past it?

    138,000 Members of Your Profession Receive a Check From Us Every Month Even Though They Once Threw This Letter Into the Wastebasket

    The who else mechanism is you are not alone. Fine - prove it.

    What's better than being part of a group? Inner circle status. And that headline exists as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      I, for one, think the trashing of the "who else" headline has now become the who else of thread topics.
      I'm with you John.
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      • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
        This is the headline for the winner that Allen picked for the War Room contest...

        Who Else Wants To Discover The Amazing Money-Making Secrets Of Undercover Internet Marketing Legend Allen Says And Other Top Marketers And How They Will Take You By The Hand And Show You How To Easily Punch Your Ticket To The Fast Track To Wealth?


        What's that tell you...

        KJ
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        • Profile picture of the author tomw
          Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

          What's that tell you...

          KJ
          That there's a massive difference between writing for the IM niche and writing in the wider marketing world.



          Also that you're a very wise, loyal, lovely guy, Bill...and genuinely inspiring.

          Tom
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          • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
            Originally Posted by tomw View Post

            Also that you're a very wise, loyal, lovely guy, Bill...and genuinely inspiring.

            Tom
            Well shucks...don't stop now...


            KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    I wasn't reading the pitch page but just moving on immediately when I saw that "who else" headline. When I realized I was doing that, I stopped to think why I would ignore those products.

    I do exactly the same thing. As soon as I see "Who Else," I automatically assume I'm being sold three dollars worth of crappy PLR. So my instant reaction is always... "Not me."

    But it's probably just us marketers and copywriters. The world, at large, may not react the same way.

    Johnny
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  • Profile picture of the author Ronak Shah
    Stick to the basics:

    Does it really matter if you write stuff that is used by everyone else or ...

    what matters to you is the "RESULT" of using the same old technique in different manners?

    Look, what matters is money in the bank..

    It's true that creativity is a pre-requisite for any sales copy but what is the use of a sales copy on your sales letter that is very creative but does not convert?

    Why most people are using the same technique is because it converts visitors into active buyers...

    I am very creative indeed and believe those who copy cannot be as creative as an individual who thinks original.. being original is definitely the best choice while writing copy but using the same old technique (read "medicine") that is being recommended by 100 other copywriters isn't bad either.

    It's like your family doctor recommending you the same recommended medicine for the same problem. Yes indeed.. copying other people's stuff or even stealing the stuff is boring.. however, what matters is whether the technique works or not at the end of the day to get you the desired amount of money in your bank a/c.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    .
    "Who else wants to become a 'copywriter'
    by simply owning an infoproduct
    and picking up tips on web forums?"


    I'm not trying to insult anyone here but...

    So much of the reasoning in this thread is just mind-boggling. What you're basically saying is that because you have a generic, sector (even product!) independent control outline/template on your desk, there's no reason to do much to it other than insert some keywords and no point bothering to create a better solution because the control has been proven to get (some) results.

    There are always controls. But the whole point of hiring a creative professional, or indeed being one, is to better them. Working with a great copywriter, in my experience, blows the control away because we create something bespoke, something original.

    Simply changing some of the keywords in the control and testing it is ridiculous and the results are worthless in comparison to testing the control against something completely different.

    Dare I say something creative...innovative?

    The problem with many "copywriters" here is simply the fact that they are not copywriters at all. They call themselves this because they make some money from writing.

    There is a massive difference.

    I know countless people who can draw and they could probably make a few bucks selling their work. Others can use Photoshop and do the same. This doesn't mean they are artists, art directors or even designers - regardess of what they decide to call themselves.

    Many would call these people artisans not artists or maybe just amateurs.

    But those who actually believe they are true creative professionals by virtue of slapping some keywords in a cookie cutter control and getting paid for it, either by a client or through conversions on their own websites, are merely deluded dilettantes.

    Oh...and if you currently bill yourself as a copywriter and need to look up the word "dilettante" you're most likely one of them.

    Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    But it's probably just us marketers and copywriters. The world, at large, may not react the same way.
    You're not selling to the world at large. While it is true you will get tired of an ad before your target market does, that does not mean they won't eventually get tired.

    Essentially the reason for the test is to find out what exposure to trite, mindless, formulaic headlines has done to response. It is tempting to fantasize the IM buyer hasn't already seen 3, or 5, or 13 other "who else" headlines.

    While fantasizing about customers is tempting, you have to develop some realistic understanding of the likely potential buyer. Unfortunately, based on the ads they run, people must imagine the target prospect goes to exactly one site, and is completely and virginally unexposed to any advertisements for what you're selling.

    That is just as big a fallacy as reasoning if you're bored with a site or ad, potential customers must be too.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

    I am not sure you know what a copywriter is.
    After twenty award winning years in the real advertising world, as an owner of three advertising and marketing agencies (amongst other related companies) that work directly with blue chip brands selling everything from airlines to whisky and as an employer of over 30 full-time copywriters and lots of freelancers (right now, today) I beg to differ.

    I'm not a copywriter. I was an art director. Then a creative director. Then a strategic planner. Now a hands off company owner that only turns up for board meetings and parties.

    I think you need to find out what a real copywriter is, what they do and how they do it instead of concentrating on one of the dilettante's "arts" of well-rehearsed faux writers' sardonicsm.

    Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Nothing magnificent about it. Just the product of applying knowledge, talent, productivity and entrepreneurship. Anyone can do the same and much much more.

    I'd be delighted to return here one day and read that you did something similar.

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Tom,

      This could be a case of comparing apples and oranges.

      You've seen some of the offers by people in the WSO Forum.

      "Want A Money-Sucking, Kick Ass Sales Page For An Incredible Never-To-Be-Repeated (unless I bump this thread) Low, One Time Only, Giveaway Price of $97?"

      If you pay $97 for a sales page you'll more than likely get a cookie cutter headline from a less experienced copywriter.

      You're talking about top level copywriters on 6 figure salaries whereas Kay is perhaps seeing results from the lower end of the spectrum.

      You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

      The people here responding to you seem to be the more professional copywriters to whom testing is a given, which could be why they are responding in the way they are.

      I actually rewrote one of those cookie cutter sales pages for someone. I felt the original was super hypey plus it didn't suit the marketer's already established persona. They put my sales page up, then put the original back up with just a few of my changes. Maybe tests showed that people in IM respond better to those kind of pages.

      It could also be a British/American thing. When I first saw a lot of IM sales pages I used to laugh because I couldn't believe that people would read them without barfing. One of the reasons I gave up the idea of being a copywriter in this niche - I can't write like that. I feel like I'm taking the piss.

      Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Hi Martin,

    I guess today is a UK-time day.



    My first response in this thread outlined one pretty accurate, albeit tongue in cheek, reason why there is a saturation of "who else..." type headlines as a result of internet marketers and their "learning" activities.

    The second, was in response to the phrases trotted out by internet marketers and "copywriters" that follow along the old line of "well, I get some results so I'm obviously right." Obviously, there are other ways or every time we turn on a tv, open a newspaper, walk past a billboard or view a webpage, things would be pretty familiar and very dull.

    As for apples and oranges. You're in the right area but missed my point.

    So many here claim to be selling the finest apples money can buy when in fact they're selling oranges - rotten ones.

    Although, of course, I'm all for someone paying their way through their education by offering services at levels consistent with their experience, my contempt stems from the fact that some are simply pulling the wool over their "clients" eyes - to put it very euphemistically.

    I've been in this business a long time and I can spot it a mile away.

    The reality is that many hardworking people here genuinely and often desperately need the services of a good copywriter. Their businesses, finances, welfare and well-being are at stake. As are those of their families.

    I work with many Warriors and see the results of some of these writers' ludicrously expensive, yet excremental, "expertise." Frankly, it's despicable.

    I'm not going to name any names but I see it a lot. Many, armed with an infoproduct and a rehearsed swagger, set up a website and immediately offer their writing services in WSO's or puff out their chest posting on the forum with a sensational sig line.

    I know there isn't a lot anybody can do about it, but if I had my way they'd be flogged. Publicly. Maybe one day soon I'll get one of the guys to create a website to that effect and link to it from my sig and some other SEO shenanigans...

    Tom

    P.S. There are a lot of unhappy copywriting customers floating around the forum, but too intimidated by rules and reputations to do or say anything about it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      As for apples and oranges. You're in the right area but missed my point.

      So many here claim to be selling the finest apples money can buy when in fact they're selling oranges - rotten ones.
      WYSIWYG

      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Although, of course, I'm all for someone paying their way through their education by offering services at levels consistent with their experience, my contempt stems from the fact that some are simply pulling the wool over their "clients" eyes - to put it very euphemistically.

      The reality is that many hardworking people here genuinely and often desperately need the services of a good copywriter. Their businesses, finances, welfare and well-being are at stake. As are those of their families.

      I'm not going to name any names but I see it a lot. Many, armed with an infoproduct and a rehearsed swagger, set up a website and immediately offer their writing services in WSO's or puff out their chest posting on the forum with a sensational sig line.
      Tom, that's not just with copywriting. The offline gold niche is full of clueless wannabes and 'experts' advocating fake it till you make it.


      P.S. There are a lot of unhappy copywriting customers floating around the forum, but too intimidated by rules and reputations to do or say anything about it.
      I think this is one of the reasons you are seeing an exodus (or reduction in posting) of more responsible people from the WF.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        WYSIWYG
        You should know better.

        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Tom, that's not just with copywriting. The offline gold niche is full of clueless wannabes and 'experts' advocating fake it till you make it.
        True...but this is the copywriting forum. I thought it appropriate to only address the issue from that perspective.

        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        I think this is one of the reasons you are seeing an exodus (or reduction in posting) of more responsible people from the WF.
        Perhaps. I sure miss some of them and many certainly wouldn't have put up with a lot of the nonsense that goes on here now or the crap being passed off as gospel.



        Tom
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