performance related copywriting

by Barry Walls

Posted: 16 years ago 39 replies

COPY WRITING

Im curious why copywriters are so against this? Is there any specific reason?

#copywriting #performance #related

ndcole78 16 years ago

It's not just copy that goes into conversions. In fact, there are so many other things that are totally out of the control of the copywriter, such as how YOU market the product or service, site, design, ect. It's true that copy is one of the most important factors in conversions, but there's a lot more that's on the part of the client to do.

There is no guarantee that the copy will convert either. But if you hire a good writer, then your chances are a lot better. But even then, you'll never know until you test it. Good copy has failed many times for many marketers.

If you mean ONLY performance-based, then I wouldn't agree to it either--that's just like working for free and hoping that you'll get paid. Would you spend hours or weeks on a job that "might" pay you? Probably not.

Copywriting is a skill that many people wished they processed, so anyone with this skill should get paid for it. If you want to pay for performance, then that's something extra to the fees.

Simply put...A lot of times it's not the copy, it's the way the product is marketed. I've had clients pay for copy and there was no market for what they were even selling.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[117475].message }}
Kyle Tully 16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

Im curious why copywriters are so against this? Is there any specific reason?

Most good copywriters aren't against it... just not for first time projects with first time customers -- for all the reasons listed above.

If I've worked with you a few times, we've established there is a market for your product and we work well together then sure, I'll do a profit split. But by that time it's just easier (and cheaper) for you to pay me a regular 5-figure fee and be done with it.
- Thanks
Signature

Consulting Tycoon
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[117586].message }}

BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

I don't know anybody who writes copy professionally that is "against" performance based compensation.

But that's not what you're asking about, is it?

What you're asking is why more copywriters aren't willing to write on "spec"... Why more copywriters don't put their "copy where their mouth is"... Why copywriters who are "as good as they claim" don't just collect on the back end...

1) There are more deals done on spec than many will cop too in a forum like this. It's not something that is often discussed publicly and not something that is usually done without significant enthusiasm for the offer on the part of the copywriter. If it doesn't excite the copywriter, why should they "buy into it" with their valuable time and expertise?

2) Clients can and do screw things up royally.

3) For every winning client that walks in, there are 10 dreamers and schemers banging on the door with expectations to the moon and poor strategy here on earth.

Want to attract a serious copywriter or marketer to help you take your project to the next level? BE A BETTER CLIENT.

I know, that sounds arrogant... but hear me out.

The marketers most likely to seek a "spec" deal from a copywriter are usually the least likely to actually be in a position to execute the campaign properly.

No money for design, postage, traffic, testing, domains, hosting, infrastructure, customer service, etc.

No experience. Reactive and desperate. Not good qualities to have in a "partner" from the perspective of the copywriter who does all the work and assumes all the risk in a spec deal.

So, be a better client. Reverse the risk. Sweeten the deal. Be ready.

Best,

Brian

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Brian McLeod

Direct Response Copywriting

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[117597].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Ok...so you do deals....just not with passengers on the special bus.

Fair enough. Makes sense.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118259].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Just to clarify. Ive never asked for a deal from a copywriter, but Ive picked up that copywriters prefer ready cash rather than being paid on a performance basis...and that makes sense...from the copywriters point of view, not necessarily from the point of view of the webmaster...as LoudMac has pointed out

"Good copy has failed many times".

So I shouldnt I trust a copywriter with $10,000 who doesn't do a performance deal because he might think Im a dreamer? The fact that he does a deal means that he thinks his copy and other variables can work?

Have I got that right?

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118277].message }}

icjackson

16 years ago

I don't think you have it quite right, bigjock...not yet.

You will probably never, ever in a million years get a copywriter worth their weight to agree to a performance deal if you have not had success with them before. It's too risky. Any copywriter who has no idea about you and your ability to successfully market what they produce who is willing to work on the basis of performance incentives is a novice who is probably desperate for work and who is trying to build their portfolio by any means necessary.

That's not good.

The only client that I will entertain on profit splitting is my very best client, whom I have worked with on multiple projects, and whom I know can move books. He sells in volume and he sells often, so I worked on one project for less upfront than I normally charge because I also receive residual payments based on sales. I would never enter into that kind of agreement with someone that I did not know well already.

If you're on a budget, your best bet is to shop around and find someone who will work within your budget and get writing samples to determine if you think their style is effective. You can sell more with mediocre copy and great marketing than you can with great copy and mediocre marketing, so the burden of performance lies with you more so than anyone else anyway.

I hope I was able to add something valuable to the conversation :-)

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

~ I.C. JACKSON ~
Outsource Your Squidoo Marketing | How To Drastically Improve Your Writing | Earn More $$ With Squidoo

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118326].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

icjackson...you seem to contradict what others are saying. They say that deals are possible, if they think the other variables could work.

"not something that is usually done without significant enthusiasm for the offer on the part of the copywriter."...LoudMac.

So a newbie should go for a performance deal first, and then if there is no "significant enthusiasm", any half sensible newbie would see than a lack of uptake would mean that there are issues with the offer from the point of view of the copywriter...and most copywriters arent stupid and should be listened to!

In that position, any newbie would be crazy to pay a copywriter a fee and hope for the best since the copywriters have already basically told you that it wont work by their reticence to accept a back end deal...so any newbie would be pretty silly to not listen to this advice and THEN pay $10,0000 when "Good copy has failed many times for many marketers."

The optimal strategy would be to tweak their offer until it is mouth watering to the copywriter. This vastly increases their chances of success since the copywriters will know much better than they will what will work. To refuse to listen to this valuable feedback is simply stupid.

Therefore, the feedback from a requested deal to do a performance based sales page should be used until such time as a copywriter is happy to work for a back end....ie....they believe in the product and the offering.

This ensures that you aren't simply throwing money at an offer which the copywriter himself thinks has no chance....shown by the fact that they wont waste their time on for a back end deal, but who will gladly take a wage for it. Good for them, bad for you.

Does this make sense to you?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118443].message }}

Kyle Tully

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

"not something that is usually done without significant enthusiasm for the offer on the part of the copywriter."...LoudMac.

So a newbie should go for a performance deal first, and then if there is no "significant enthusiasm", any half sensible newbie would see than a lack of uptake would mean that there are issues with the offer from the point of view of the copywriter...and most copywriters arent stupid and should be listened to!

We're not just talking about significant enthusiasm for the offer you have for the market, it's just as much (if not more) about the offer you have for the copywriter.

For example, you might have a killer new product and a rabid market. I know I can write a letter that can make a million bucks. Sounds like a good offer, right? Maybe not...

What if you don't have any money to market the product? What if you have a really bad reputation? What if you've got 3 projects on your plate and mid-project another one takes your attention?

Then it doesn't matter how good the product, offer, or copy is. The copywriter loses.

That's the offer the copywriter is more concerned about.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Consulting Tycoon

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118484].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

But the opposite is true as well Kyle.

You win where the offer is good.
You win where the project is the only one going.
You win where the cash is available for proper marketing.
You win where the reputation is untarnished.

In that situation, if the copywriter wont do a deal, shouldnt you automatically assume that theres something wrong with the offer?

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118513].message }}

Bruce Wedding

16 years ago

There are a lot of reasons why a copywriter won't write for performance.

First, despite what many believe, copy is only part of the equation to a successful business. The equation looks like this:

Great Copy * Great Offer * Great Product * Targeted Traffic = Sales

Notice that these things multiply and not add. That means if any one of them is a zero, the result is zero. Now this formula isn't perfect, but it's close.

So why would I, the copywriter, work for performance if I don't have control of ALL the remaining variables in the equation? I may be able to influence your offer (maybe!) but I have zero control over the product or the traffic.

The formula is also the reason why a marketer you have a relationship with might get a performance deal. I will have a good idea whether or not he can deliver the 3 other variables.

Unfortunately, the guys that can deliver the other variables don't want to do performance deals. $3-10,000 for copy is cheap for them and they've not about to share profits that could be much higher.

See, the deal is, all the guys wanting performance deals don't have any money and they don't have any money because they can't deliver the rest of the equation. It's a catch-22. I realize that but that's life.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

$2,300 in a Week With Teespring

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118545].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

See, the deal is, all the guys wanting performance deals don't have any money and they don't have any money because they can't deliver the rest of the equation. It's a catch-22. I realize that but that's life.

This is simply not true in all cases. Sorry.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118651].message }}

Bruce Wedding 16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

This is simply not true in all cases. Sorry.

I agree. Just about 99% of them.
- Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature

$2,300 in a Week With Teespring
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118659].message }}
- Barry Walls 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding
  
  I agree. Just about 99% of them.
  
  And the fact that its even that high says not very favorable things about the people who hire copywriters.
  
  The feedback from trying to get a copywriter to agree to a deal is invaluable. I think its crazy not to use this feedback to your advantage...but maybe thats just the poker player in me coming out.
  
  Id also like to clarify that Im not looking for a deal and haven't been turned down for one and am not trying to find out why.
  
  Its pretty clear that some people have that incorrect impression. Assumptions eh...they make asses of us all!
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118697].message }}

BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

In that case, I'd look a little closer than the offer.

Brian

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Brian McLeod

Direct Response Copywriting

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118553].message }}

Barry Walls 16 years ago

Originally Posted by LoudMac

In that case, I'd look a little closer than the offer.

Brian

I don't understand what you mean. Your already looking at the offer. Here are your conclusions:

Its the only project being worked on
It is well funded for marketing (what sort of a person spends all their budget on copywriting anyway? Is this a common problem???)
The offer is good in your opinion
The reputation is good from the online chatter and other sources

Deal or no deal?

If no deal, what other factor would you be looking for?

Barry
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118647].message }}

MikeHumphreys

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

Clients paying cash keeps things simple. As a copywriter, I don't have to chase after clients to get paid what I'm owed. You'd be surprised how many clients will drag their heels in paying their bills, even when they have the money.

A straight fee is a one-time investment in your own business with no ongoing royalties to pay out -- ever. That can save you thousands of dollars in payouts over time.

Keep in mind, it's rarely a straight percentage. Many times, the marketer is still putting up some cash upfront. Remember, the copywriter has to pay their bills and it's quite easy for a big project to take 1-2 months to complete with AR series, squeeze pages, main sales letters, upsells, etc. to write AFTER doing market research.

Every copywriter I know who charges $10K or more does some consulting for the client along the way. Many of the $4K and up copywriters do as well.

It makes sense because a copywriter's reputation is on the line with every project. Have a project that converts great and you can name your own price on future projects. Have one (or more) bomb and you'll be lucky to get hired for any future project.

It's not just the copy!

If the product is sub-par or even flat-out stinks, you'll get a bad conversion rate.

If the offer stinks, you'll get a bad conversion rate.

If your traffic you are sending to the sales letter is untargeted or poorly targeted (i.e. sending freebie seekers to go read a sales letter for a $2K home study course), then your conversion rate will tank.

If the client thinks they know better than the copywriter and starts "tweaking" the copy, then your conversion rate can tank. Doing a split-test or multi-variate test is great way to make a client happy: you can test their "tweaked" piece against the copywriter's work and see which one converts better.

That's just a few of the variables that affect conversion rates besides the copy. And most of that is out of the copywriters hands.

It's been my experience that 99% of the straight comission offers I get are from potential clients who have no money. The remaining 1% are from clients I've worked with before and we have established a solid working relationship.

Think about it: If a complete stranger asked you to do a straight comission deal... and you knew you had no control over product quality, the price point, the offer to be made, or the traffic sources being used... would you do the deal? I highly doubt it.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Thanks

Signature

Kickstart Your Copywriting Business: How To Get Loads of New Clients FAST!

Kick-A$$ Eight-Figure Producing Copywriting Gun For Hire | Marketing & Copywriting Blog

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118418].message }}

Jason Dolman

16 years ago

As Bruce mentioned, the problem with a performance related deal is you're basically asking the copywriter to become a partner in the project without the benefit of any input in the project beyond the copy.

In situations like this, the person looking for a performance related deal would be better off looking for a partner who is strong in copywriting and able to handle that portion of the project, in addition to others like product creation, marketing, traffic generation (or at least allowing for input in those areas).

Jason

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118739].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Dolman

I probably haven't made myself clear...thats not what Im asking at all.

I am trying to say that the intput of/feedback from the copywriter into other areas of the project is the key reason to ask for a deal....to ensure you're right track with the formula. If a deal isn't forthcoming, then you know you're on the wrong track.

Does that make sense?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[118752].message }}

icjackson

16 years ago

bigjock, maybe what you really want is a business partner who can write.

It doesn't sound like you agree on the value of a copywriter as a professional because you really can't see why we would want to be paid upfront just like anyone else.

Most professionals do not work on a performance incentive. Do you only pay your doctor if you stay healthy? Do you only pay your lawyer if you stay out of jail?

I hope you see what I am saying. If money is not the problem, it is your perspective on the value of our work that is keeping you from understanding why we don't normally do that.

I hope you find what you're looking for :-)

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

~ I.C. JACKSON ~
Outsource Your Squidoo Marketing | How To Drastically Improve Your Writing | Earn More $$ With Squidoo

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119044].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

"bigjock, maybe what you really want is a business partner who can write."

I dont want anything...I was just considering the reasons why copywriters are SO against performance pay. You say most professionals dont work on performance related pay????

I dont know what professions you have experience of...but I almost TOTALLY disagree with that statement...most of Wall Street works on performance pay, so do most CEOs, anyone involved in production, sales or marketing, accountants (high end ones) investment advisers, mortgage brokers, sales people, real estate agents, many lawyers, business people...I could go on and on. In the UK, doctors, schools, universities, dentists, hospitals are ALL measured, ranked and remunerated according to performance.

I get the feeling Ive hit a real nerve here with copywriters. My intention was just to get a quick answer to a quick question...but the more this goes on, the more I get a feeling that something is being hidden/not disclosed. You guys seem SOOOOOOO against it! Alarm bells are ringing.

It seems to me that you will write for anybody for a fee, even if you have made a personal prejudgement that the project will fail. there is something unsavory in my mind about taking someones money when you have a good idea that your copy wont succeed, which you admit it often wont.

An oncologist who sends someone for $1500 a pop Chemotherapy when they know that the patient will die anyway or a lawyer who takes a case for a chunky fee but knows theres no hope is also unsavory.

Do these things happen? Yes, they do...every day.

The logical "optimal game theory" defense against this possibility for someone hiring a doctor is to remove the possiblity that you are going to die of cancer anyway, regardless of how much chemo you have. Tell the doc you'll pay him when you get better (figuratively, not literally). When he says no, whats the point in having the treatment....none! If he says OK, pay him there and then. Everyones happy and the expert hasnt pulled the wool over your eyes, as they are prone to do where 5 figure sums are involved.

The fact that a lawyer will take a no win, no fee case (since they are very confident) should instill confidence in the same way that having a deal with a copywriter instills confidence.

If I had a legal case and I couldnt find a lawyer to take it on a "no win no fee" basis...that in itself tells me a lot. There is a great deal of valuable information in that feedback. Don't you agree?

I believe that the same feedback is available when a copywriter wont take a back end deal.

So if I was to hire a copywriter tomorrow who I didn't know from Joe Bloggs, I would say this. I will pay you 30% of your 10k fee upfront, and put the rest in escrow and give you X% of the back end and release it when the backend pays it...deal? In addition, I will compensate you for your risk, so instead of 10, you will get 13 + x%. If he says no...I know that someone with more experience has refused to take a better deal for themselves and will settle for less. its a bit like a doctor telling you he needs the payment now, not when you get better (figuratively....you kno what I mean).

Once again...Im not looking for a copywriter, or anything else...other than to understand the business model/motivations/weakspots/strategic methods of a group of professional who I might use someday soon.

In addition, I believe that you guys can provide valuable feedback...and I cant speak for anyone else, but I'm not one to miss an opportunity to get expert analysis on anything I do.

We all know that you guys have taken work when you KNOW its doomed...no one can blame you, you've got to earn....it just seems smarter in my position to try to get you eat some of what you kill in the long run...then Im confident before I part with my cash.

Or is it smarter in my position to just hand over teh 10k, know most copywriters will take it no matter what the chances of success are, even if my offer sucks...and then just cross my fingers?

Is that smarter?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119167].message }}

Bruce Wedding

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

I get the feeling Ive hit a real nerve here with copywriters. My intention was just to get a quick answer to a quick question...but the more this goes on, the more I get a feeling that something is being hidden/not disclosed. You guys seem SOOOOOOO against it! Alarm bells are ringing.

Actually, I'm all for it, for the right clients. If Brad Callen wants me to write a letter for 3% of the gross, I'll drop what I'm working on and get started today.

But if Joe Newbie wants the same thing, I wouldn't do it for 50% because he's going to flop. Would I take his $4,000? Sure. And with it, I will give him all the advice I can about how to succeed. If his price is too high, I'll let him know. If his product sucks, I'll ask him to beef it up. I'll even help him recruit JVs but that's about all I can do for traffic.

Guess how many have listened to my advice in th past? Practically ZERO. I've NEVER been able to get a marketer to lower a price or improve a product. I have been able to get them to add bonuses, but that's about it.

This is business and if you're going into it, you should know what you're doing. I'm not culpable for your failings in the areas outside what you hire me for.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

$2,300 in a Week With Teespring

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119294].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

But if Joe Newbie wants the same thing, I wouldn't do it for 50% because he's going to flop

You love your sweeping statements...

So all your Joe newbies flop...I'll let you know if I need your services.

Thanks
3 replies

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119366].message }}

Kyle Tully

16 years ago

Hey bigjock, I see where you're coming from. I really do. But I'm not sure you're seeing the big picture nor making the right assumptions.

Most copywriters I know (including myself) won't take a project (for cash or otherwise) they think has little chance of success.

After all, all we have is our results. If we keep writing letters that don't make money then no matter if it was our copy or something else that was the problem, in the back of peoples minds there will always be that doubt.

I've refused many more clients than I've accepted for this reason.

Bruce's claim of "99% of all the guys wanting performance deals don't have any money and they don't have any money because they can't deliver the rest of the equation" is spot on in my experience.

That's just the way the market is.

As a copywriter there is MUCH more work available than any of us could possibly handle. We don't have to take risks on these guys because it's just not necessary.

And if we do take them as clients, it's not just about writing a letter, it's about consulting with them on how to make it a success. And again in my experience, 99% won't do what you tell them.

So, given that there is more than enough cash up front work available, and 99% of the back-end deals have little chance of success -- despite what the marketer will claim/promise -- why would a copywriter take a performance deal?

Because of all this you can't take a copywriters refusal of your performance deal as a sign that you're not ready to go to market yet. You might very well be, but most copywriters will refuse you without even looking at all the factors involved because we know 99% aren't worth it, and it's not worth the time & risk to weed out the 1% that will make a killing.

So if I was to hire a copywriter tomorrow who I didn't know from Joe Bloggs, I would say this. I will pay you 30% of your 10k fee upfront, and put the rest in escrow and give you X% of the back end and release it when the backend pays it...deal? In addition, I will compensate you for your risk, so instead of 10, you will get 13 + x%.

That's all well and good, but your offer doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I might have 3 other leads wanting me to write for them with $10k cash up front. And I might have another client, someone I've worked with many times before, with a 5% of the gross on a million dollar launch offer.

My refusal of your offer doesn't mean anything, other than I have better offers on the table.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Consulting Tycoon

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119511].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

and 99% of the back-end deals have little chance of success --

So what is the chance of success if someone thought of making it a back end deal, but decided to make it a flat fee? Does that percentage change?

The chosen method or mode of payment has 0% impact of the outcome...all other things being equal.

What you are saying is that if I toss a coin outside in the wind, it has a 99% chance of being tails, not heads, where as if I toss it in space, its 50-50.

Do you see why that makes NO sense?

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119573].message }}

Kyle Tully

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

You're assuming the guys offering the back-end deals also have the money to offer a flat fee.

That's NOT the case.

The majority of people offering performance deals DO NOT have the money to offer, that's why they're asking for the performance deal.

The guys that DO have the money are much more likely to make the project a success for the simple fact that they were able to get $10k (or whatever) together in the first place.

Yeah there are exceptions to the rule, but in the majority of cases this is how it is.

Thanks

Signature

Consulting Tycoon

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119579].message }}

MikeHumphreys

16 years ago

So far you've had several experienced copywriters tell you that the majority of commission only offers come from people with no money. This isn't some industry heresay... it's been my professional experience as well as a number of other copywriters I know.

Keep in mind: It's a sellers market. There is more demand for copywriting services than the supply of copywriters have ever been able to fulfill.

There's an even higher demand for copywriters who write very good to great copy with consistency. That's why I have the luxury of turning down 70% of the project offers that come my way: because I have developed the ability to write great copy because of writing copy.

What Bruce and Kyle said was spot on: Most clients ignore the consultative advice they get from copywriters, graphic designers, etc. because they believe they "know better". It's been my experience that it's rarely the case. Where I'm able to, I'll advise strongly against their proposed action and give my reasons why... but at the end of the day, it's their product not mine.

Even famous copywriters like Clayton Makepeace have documented this type of experience and he's being paid $75K plus royalties for his help.

Ignoring your hired professional's advice -- in any field -- is rarely a good idea.

To use a poker analogy -- since you like poker so much -- it's like going all in on the first hand with nothing but a pair of two's. You might get lucky but the odds aren't good that you'll beat the other 7 players at the table and win the pot.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Originally Posted by bigjock

Thanks

Signature

Kickstart Your Copywriting Business: How To Get Loads of New Clients FAST!

Kick-A$$ Eight-Figure Producing Copywriting Gun For Hire | Marketing & Copywriting Blog

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119612].message }}

Hakim 16 years ago

Truly top copywriters get their fee AND a percentage of the gross.

One of the top copywriter teams of all time was Bill Jayme (writer) and Heikki Ratalahti (graphic designer) -- they achieved an average gross pull of 7% with their best campaigns. Bill Jayme passed away at 75 years old in May, 2001.

They created the campaign for "The Doctor's Book of Home Remedies", a direct mail package for Rodale Books, in 1990 as I recall. (aside: it was a three page sales letter of about 900 total words --- and we all know "short copy" doesn't sell).

The book promoted via Jayme's direct mail package sold about 8 million copies, at $29.95 per copy. Jayme only considered to do a few campaigns a year. He usually received an upfront fee of $250,000 plus 10% of the gross. Nobody at Rodale complained.

Writing on spec is like selling on consignment ... no top pro should (or would) do it.

This has been the way at Rodale, Reader's Digest, and today with Boardroom, Agora and others.

Hakim Chishti, Director
Advanced Marketing Institute
"Home of World's Most Popular
& Still FREE Headline Analyzer"
"31,957 Headlines Analyzed September 2008"
Advanced Marketing Institute - Marketing Education & Research
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119518].message }}

Bruce Wedding

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

You love your sweeping statements...

So all your Joe newbies flop...

Do all my joe newbies flop? I don't write for newbies.

Originally Posted by bigjock

I'll let you know if I need your services.

2 Things:

1. I'm not for hire.
2. You couldn't afford me if I was.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

$2,300 in a Week With Teespring

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[119708].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Do all my joe newbies flop? I don't write for newbies.

2 Things:

1. I'm not for hire.
2. You couldn't afford me if I was.

More incorrect assumptions...tisk tisk. Monkeys in labs learn faster.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120205].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

We're going round in circles, no matter how many different ways I frame the question for you...we're trapped in a circular argument.

It seems that you have all the risk shifted onto someone else as a matter or course...with a strong inbuilt desire not to take on any risk yourselves...and thats OK. Id already come to this conclusion.

All I wanted to know was why this was the case. Yes, yes, money, but we've already established that even if teh money is there, you still wont do it...so its not the real reason.

It seems that there are no guarantees in copywriting...so people like me, if we want to hire copywriters, just have to pay our money and take our chances...even if we don't know the copywriter.

It just looks very, very risky...but then I think you already knew that....

you know, I think you guys could do some more "case study" type threads here....where you take a failing offer and turn it around. This would boost trust no end and reduce others risk quite a bit...but I am not offering my site for this...pick someone elses site and take them from zero to hero and let us all look...then more newbies might be prepared to take the chance on you, even though you wont take the risk yourselves...because all your current customers will be dead some day...so some of you guys need to write for newbies as well. Im sure the smart ones among you have already figured this out.

But Im pretty sure you're all much too busy/highly paid to do something of such "low" value to yourselves...(at least in the short term, but in the short term, it could be golden for you all...but Ive a feeling you wont see this).

Why don't 3 or 4 of you get together and let us look over your shoulder as you rebuild a failing offer?

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120244].message }}

Jason Dolman

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

I'll tell you what...

I need an ebook written. How about I hire you to write it and I'll pay you 1% of the net profits for life (my life, not yours)?

You spend the next 3 weeks researching and writing the ebook and when you're done... wait until I start making money with it before you get paid.

Sound like a good deal?

How about this... let's make it some articles instead... but again, I'm only going to pay you AFTER they hit page one in Google.

I mean... you stand behind your work don't you?

Forget the fact that the article is useless unless I actually promote it... your perfectly written article should stand on it's own and suck in traffic like a Hoover even if it's still sitting on my hard drive, right?

Jason

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120320].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Dolman

Your solution to reduce the amount of risk you're exposed to is to put it all on the copywriter and you're surprised there is apprehension to that?

You seem to be under the impression the copywriter doesn't take on any risk in the normal "pay my fee up front" arrangement, choosing only to see the client side of things, and assuming the "real reason" is something more than meets the eye... especially when the "money is there."

You're asking the person bringing real value and skill to the project to take on all of the risk... all on the "promise" of earning money.

It's not okay for you to pay your money and take your chances on an unknown copywriter, but you expect the copywriter to do just that by taking a flier on some unknown client?

Look... if the money really was there... you (or anyone else) wouldn't want a performance related deal because it would end up costing more money in the long run (excellent examples of this given earlier by another poster).

I'll tell you what...

I need an ebook written. How about I hire you to write it and I'll pay you 1% of the net profits for life (my life, not yours)?

You spend the next 3 weeks researching and writing the ebook and when you're done... wait until I start making money with it before you get paid.

Sound like a good deal?

How about this... let's make it some articles instead... but again, I'm only going to pay you AFTER they hit page one in Google.

I mean... you stand behind your work don't you?

Forget the fact that the article is useless unless I actually promote it... your perfectly written article should stand on it's own and suck in traffic like a Hoover even if it's still sitting on my hard drive, right?

Jason

Go back and read again what I said... I never said ALL risk.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120373].message }}

Barry Walls 16 years ago

Seriously Jason...I don't know where you're getting your ideas from, but it isn't from anything Ive said.
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120375].message }}

BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

We're going round in circles, no matter how many different ways I frame the question for you.

Ya think?

You've made expressly clear several times that you are not looking for a copywriter, but continue to proffer deal criterion and dictate hypothetical terms that would be acceptable to you, the self-described NON CLIENT.

You've attacked those that gave you honest answers to your bait/questions.

You can make any judgments you like about the business of copywriting - it's your mind after all. You may even rally some support from the noobs not crusty and cynical enough yet to see your point for what it is and who it's really about.

And it ain't copywriters.

Good luck.

/thread

Brian

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Brian McLeod

Direct Response Copywriting

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120660].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

what is it?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120674].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Here’s the way I see it now...
Initially, the position was...oh yes, we do these deals....not often, but they are done more than you might imagine.
Then the position was, well...we won’t do them because the people who want them probably won’t succeed because they have no money.
Then it became...even if they have the money, we still wouldn’t do them because...(insert favourite reason here)
Then it became we won’t do them because we have no control over the other parts of the process.
Then it became, even when we have some input IMers never listen...its s total waste of our time...thats why we don’t do them
Then...I’m not working for 1%, or whatever Jason said.
Then it became...BigJock...you’re a total retard for asking such questions and you are probably some sort of master criminal/dead beat/sexual deviant as well and you have a hidden agenda that newbies are too stupid to see, but which us more worldly wise copywriters see clearly...you’re a snake in the grass with the agenda of .............................................(fill in your own paranoid answer)
OK...I think the honest answer is that you like cash upfront because copy regularly fails to deliver what is expected from it....often through no fault of the copywriter. It isn’t the universal solution that many newbies think and you want to decrease your risk of non paying customers in this scenario.
Does that sound about right? If it is...thats fair enough! Anyone would understand that position.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[120693].message }}

Collette

16 years ago

If you're not in the market for a copywriter, why do you seem to care so much how copywriters structure their payment terms?

The truth is, everybody has their own preference. I've worked on a flat fee basis, for a monthly retainer, retainer + commission, and for several non-profits for free.

However, like most experienced copywriters, I always work with a flat rate for clients with whom I do not have a proven, established relationship. I've also have clients, who adamantly refused to work with a commission-based structure. These clients ONLY want to pay a flat fee, up-front. Ironically (and contrary to what you seem to believe) these clients are experienced marketers, and are happy to pay $4,000 and up for a single sales letter.

Also contrary to what you seem to believe, an ethical copywriter (and yes, there ARE lots of us out here!) will NOT take on a project they believe has NO chance of succeeding. In fact, most of us will bend over backwards to explain to a prospect why we believe their project is fatally flawed.

I have gone so far as to flat out tell a prospect that, if they want to waste their money by having me write the copy for them, then I'm happy to do so - as long as they understand that they're wasting their money. If they want to take my advice - fine. If not; fine.

Also, it's only fair to point out that I, and EVERY OTHER COPYWRITER I KNOW, has been burnt - sometimes badly - by at least one deadbeat client.

I have no doubt that when I was an unproven copywriter, I had prospects visit my web site and decide I wasn't worth the risk. Fair enough.

But you seem to be chastising copywriters for doing the same thing - deciding not to take the risk with unproven prospects - and allocating all sorts of unsavory moral attributes to us, in toto. When, really, it's just a business decision not to work with an unproven entity. And both sides are free to make that choice for themselves. No hard feelings.

A successful marketing plan is one that has been properly planned, integrated, timed, and executed. Copywriting is only a part of that mix. EVERY copywriter, including the biggest of them, has had bombs. There are all kinds of reasons why copy can bomb, and sometimes the reasons are out of the control of both the copywriter AND the marketer.

Experienced copywriters and experienced marketers understand that there is no 'magic bullet'.

P.S. If you find a software designer, web site designer, graphic artist, email provider, or web host who is willing to hold off on being paid until I make money from a new site - let me know. I'd love to send some business their way!

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[121293].message }}

Barry Walls

16 years ago

Im not tin the market right now...but I soon will be. I wanted to get a handle on the issues regarding recruiting/payment/motivation.

I understand the position perfectly...copy writers copy doesn't always work for various reasons and copywriters want their money before the results come in from the copy, offer, bonus package, marketing etc so that they wont get shafted if not all up to spec, as many of you have been shafted in the past....fine. (which is curious...how do you get shafted if you dont do deals??....ah forget it...Im not really interested anymore)

I get it. I understand it. I would do the same in your shoes.

I asked for a reason and I got one.

PS - i didn't question anyones morals...but don't try to make me believe that I couldnt hire any number of copywriters for a doomed project...its insulting to us both.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[121410].message }}

Collette

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bigjock

PS - i didn't question anyones morals...but don't try to make me believe that I couldnt hire any number of copywriters for a doomed project...its insulting to us both.

Please don't insult me. Unless you were responding, specifically, to an unspecified poster, you wrote:

"I get the feeling Ive hit a real nerve here with copywriters. My intention was just to get a quick answer to a quick question...but the more this goes on, the more I get a feeling that something is being hidden/not disclosed. You guys seem SOOOOOOO against it! Alarm bells are ringing.

It seems to me that you will write for anybody for a fee, even if you have made a personal prejudgement that the project will fail. there is something unsavory in my mind about taking someones money when you have a good idea that your copy wont succeed, which you admit it often wont.

... Everyones happy and the expert hasnt pulled the wool over your eyes, as they are prone to do where 5 figure sums are involved.

...An oncologist who sends someone for $1500 a pop Chemotherapy when they know that the patient will die anyway or a lawyer who takes a case for a chunky fee but knows theres no hope is also unsavory.

...I believe that the same feedback is available when a copywriter wont take a back end deal..."

And incidently, in this same post, you answered your own question above:

Originally Posted by bigjock

"(...how do you get shafted if you dont do deals??....)"

with this:

Originally Posted by bigjock

"So if I was to hire a copywriter tomorrow who I didn't know from Joe Bloggs, I would say this. I will pay you 30% of your 10k fee upfront, and put the rest in escrow and give you X% of the back end and release it when the backend pays it...deal? In addition, I will compensate you for your risk, so instead of 10, you will get 13 + x%. ...If he says no...I know that someone with more experience has refused to take a better deal for themselves and will settle for less"

Actually, this copywriter would be "settling" for MORE, since he/she doesn't know YOU from Joe Bloggs.

Originally Posted by bigjock

... its a bit like a doctor telling you he needs the payment now, not when you get better (figuratively....you kno what I mean)."

How does the copywriter have ANY guarantee that you will honor your end of the bargain? What "proof" of YOUR honesty are you offering? Will the copywriter be able to make withdrawals from the escrow account? What proof will the writer have that there even IS such an account? How does the copywriter get access to the account and the sales records? How does the writer know the sales records aren't altered in your favor? What if YOU, for whatever reason (wife leaves, kid gets arrested, dog dies) fail to live up to your obligations - what then?

Why not offer to cut the copywriter a deal where they will refund you 70% of their fee if you tell them your marketing didn't cut it?

How does a copywriter make sure he/she doesn't get screwed by a client? By not making "deals" such as the one you described.

In all of this, however, I thank you for enlightening me: I had no idea that doctors and lawyers in Ireland worked on results-based fees. That's one hell of a medical plan y'all got. And cheap lawyers. *Where's my passport?*

In the end, I have to agree with Brian Mac. Why not simply start a post or run a classified asking for copywriters who would be willing to write for you for free, up front?

If you had done so, you might have gotten the response you were looking for.

(Heck, there's a guy somewhere in this section who recently offered his services for free, and someone mentioned someone else who writes 500 words for $1.)

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[122773].message }}

performance related copywriting

Trending Topics

Should i Index Author pages?

best high quality crypto traffic.

Some interesting stats about brand comms

What's the Best IM-Related Skill to Learn Today That Can Help in the Future?

Fixing a massive traffic drop after rebranding