"AIDA is it still a viable way of structuring a pieceof writing or are there better one's to use?"

W.I.I.F.M is only part of the beginning of A in AIDA. Just getting prospects' attention in a noisy and crowded environment where they are continuously bombarded with often confusing or meaningless advertising is the first step.

Once you have their attention, and show why they should listen to you, I use PAS: Problem + Agitation + Solution to pique their interest.

The next step - Desire goes into the features with massaged benefits worked into emotional outcomes or results from using the product.

The Action step seamlessly brings up the incentivized offer to urgently order the product and includes "proof", testimonials, guarantee, etc.

I also include an ongoing step - customer Retention and followup.

This is very simplified, and may look easy. But going from A to A in AIDA is a process, not one single event. It can take as little as a few minutes or many years for me to close some of my deals.

Totally they overlap, be crazy if they didn't. The starting point of getting the attention is one that is pretty hard to move though. Do you agree?
It could be argued, and quite successfully, that the structure is there purely as a guide,and not a rigid pattern that has to be followed.
Build value, yes, yes, yes.

In a few posts (23 and 24 for example) it's obvious that you are addressing a previous post. It makes it a little easier to follow if the post you are responding to is in quotes before you answer.

If there isn't a quote, it's assumed you aren't replying to a post.

Uh, who are you talking to? As long as it is not the dirty 6 letter word.. its all good. <-- Note that my reply to you includes an emoticon meaning.. in this context.. its all good.


BTW, Welcome to the forum.

I enjoy your posts, but I would disagree with the part I highlighted in bold.

Clayton Makepeace, the highest-paid copywriter in history...or at least one of the top depending on who you ask...and if you ask other top copywriters they'll tell you he is and is responsible for making his clients more money than anyone else...

used to do a ton of teaching. He not only taught but is responsible for some of the best copywriters in the business. Some post here from time to time.

But anyways, I was sad to see his sight was no longer active. I would guess it had something to do with his passing. Then I remembered something...

the Wayback Machine.

If you want to learn from one of the greatest you can still visit his site using the Wayback Machine. It is loaded with teaching...some of the best you'll ever find, and it's all free.

But then there's Bencivenga, Schwab, Ogilvy, Kennedy, Schwartz (and the list goes on)...all worth millions have taught.

I think there's something about someone who has achieved great success...they want to pass on what they've discovered.

So, just a little disagreement there...

Edit: Should have also added there are a lot of people that post on here that are successful and still give tips and advice.

Copy writers are sales people, they simply use a different medium. One is the spoken word and one is the written word. Both sales.

By which I reckon you mean get the thread back on track?

If a sales person is selling drill bits then they are in the wrong job. Selling the hole is the job or any sales person, copy writers included.

Love your brilliance on a lot of things, but I disagree on this.

First, I did drive my Lambo to the grocery store a few times. Don't have it anymore because I got tired of it and moved on to better vehicles, but still did it.

Second, some of the biggest fortunes in the world have been made through copywriting. Not sure what you mean when you say it's wasting a lot of potential.

I can tell you for a fact that there have been companies that started at zero and made 14 million within two weeks from the power of copywriting. I was there and can attest to the fact that copywriting works.

I have no doubt you're great at what you do, but I'm not quite sure you completely understand copywriting

Back in the day, sometimes a client would ask me if I can "fix" some code in a software product they had created by a different software developer that disappeared soon after they collected their payment.

Every once in a while the "fix" was very simple, but the full research of the code is very time consuming, i,e, little to no time to apply the "fix" and a very long time to do the "discovery".

Long story short, I would fix it and send the client the working product. The client would say something like "Oh, I just wanted to know if you could fix it. What do I owe you?"

The client was right. We never agreed on a price to fix it, so what would be a fair price? That was easy enough for my simple-minded way of treating my client with respect and I simply said something like "Whatever you think is fair."

To my surprise the client overpaid. Seriously overpaid. They added a zero to what I personally thought would be a fair price. I respectfully and immediately contacted the client and said as much with a offer to refund most of the money.

That client put it to me this way. What they considered a fair price and what I considered a fair price differed because they had previously contacted two different developers that said they could not fix the product, yet required a fee. The client explained, at that point the client needed a working product and three developers could not deliver.

The client said.. I was the long shot.I was the rogue one. I was the guy from the trenches. I had no polish. I had no sizzle. What I did have that meant everything to the client was two fold.. the technical experience to make it work and respect for people.

Again, to my surprise the client revealed their true identity. The client was the original software developer. The client had an agenda. The client intentionally handed me some code that would not work, so the end-product would not work as advertised. They simply wanted someone with the knowledge to "fix" it and more importantly secure my services (someone that could provide the fix) for the life of the product.

Claude, was that a win-win? I think not. More of a learn-learn (to my way of thinking). The client learned something from me and I learned something from the client.

Later, I got into sales of my own products. I am not even close to your caliber Claude. There were times that I felt, at the end of the sale the customer received the short end of the stick. That is when I also learned to "pay it forward".

When I feel that the customer received the short end of the stick I would follow-up with the customer and make it right for my own piece of mind. In terms of over delivery. Long story short.. I treated them as I would like to be treated myself.

We are not perfect, but we can find it in ourselves to at least do the perfect thing by the customer. Maybe we should add a "C" to AIDA.. Conscious?

And that is what makes me sleep better at night.

Zzzzzz

Sorry, I'm not a copywriter. I read too much "Claude" to be of help in that regard.

You kind of are..or at least touching on moral philosophy. In general we all tend to assume the morals of the society and culture in which we live and were raised. Even if we later rationalize this morality, it can still leave us with feelings of right and wrong we can't shake off. No doubt it's beneficial for society that morality seems to work in that way.

I may consider astrology to be ridiculous while at the same time recognizing that it speaks to a fundamental human need within some people. If satisfying that need harms nobody else, how is it that different to using (for example) Cialdini's techniques of manipulating other cognitive biases while knowing that some of the buyers I sell to will get themselves further into avoidable debt because of what I'm selling? Or cause them to eat more sugar?

If we're honest, I think the things we end up feeling comfortable selling (or not selling) are the things that gel with our own world view, more than any feelings we might have for the sentiments or good of our buyers.

Be forewarned, I may get a little long winded, if it loses your attention along the way, lots of other WF threads to read today, fair enough?

Copywriters like the tales of two men, so, here is a true story.

The salesman and the scientist.

After 5 years of failure, the scientist was ready to throw in the towel on his side hustle of a mail order business. His latest failure was a book of money tables that no one bought, He had a 1000 copies printed because he was sure everyone needed this book. Not one single copy sold.

That could have been the straw that broke his back, crushed his spirit and with resignation he would hold on to his job as a nuclear engineer, a job he hated because of the inept management.

Enter the salesman.

The salesman basically said, "who are you and I to tell people what they need to spend THEIR money on? Get off that high horse and sell what people want to buy". This libertarian attitude was the salesman's hallmark, one which was adopted by several of his contemporaries.

The salesman told the scientist the hot selling product of the day had to do with Astrology.

The scientist, with his traditional Catholic upbringing, and his degrees in engineering, thought and felt that astrology was truly RIDICULOUS and wanted nothing to do with it. But, desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures and in this story the scientist was desperate enough to give it a try.

I'm sure a few of you are familiar with how Gary Halbert, the salesman, got Ben Suarez into selling horoscopes (being dragged kicking and screaming to it)...and his full page ad which ran on the back of the Sunday comics section, known as ASTROLOGY TODAY, is considered Breakthough.

And Ben went on to build a 150 million dollar a year business, and has probably written more controls (well over a verified BILLION DOLLARS worth) than any other living copy writer, albeit, he is seldom mentioned in copywriter circles.

He built his business, SCI, by selling what people wanted to buy.

He apparently dismounted that white knight big horse he was riding and traded it in on some Shetland ponies that people paid to have their kids ride at the local fair.

Some day, maybe, I'll tell the "page two, Paul Harvey, rest of the story" about the astrology biz.

You will find that the great Gary Halbert would write for just about anything, as long as there was a starving crowd of ready buyers and money was to be made.

One of his proteges, Dan Kennedy, would later say, "if I don't take their money, they'll give it to someone else". This Ayn Rand, Libertarian view sez, "stay out of my life and what I do, and I'll stay out of yours"...or another way of thinking is, one man's morality is another man's floor mat.

I'm going to use astrology as a metaphor in this part, but before I get into the Annie Hershey story, consider this...from my childhood.

The Cleveland Indians traded Rocky Colavito, that day I put his baseball card on my bike, in my spokes to make a motor like noise. I thought collecting cards and comic books was ridiculous. Although two of my neighbors, Jim and John, had huge collections. Jim had over 6,000 baseball cards, his father being a minor league player in the 30's and a collector too.

John had every issue of Superman and Batman and several other titles, neatly wrapped in cellophane.

I might have thrown him the first X Men comic, I just thought is was a stupid hobby. As I thought that stamp and coin collecting were too, the irony being years later I was paid a ton of money to write for these markets, HA!

In 1970 I took a class at the U of Hawaii on Celestial Navigation. On the first day, the teacher asked why we were there. One person said, and I swear this is true, "I want to learn how to find the constellations of the Zodiac". I thought the teacher was going to throw chalk at her.

Annie Hershey was a gifted astrologer, she operated a shop in West Akron, near Summit Mall for years and years. She taught astrology at local schools, she was very popular and colorful. I took her classes, and this long after I had made my own little tons of moolah selling astrology and good luck charm types of products.

I found, and find, the study of astrology to be ridiculous, although there was a time in my youth it was the de facto go to pickup line in the college bars. No matter their sign, I was the exact same one, and off we'd go. Anyhoo...

Writing copy for things I find ridiculous. Yes, I'll do it. For things I find morally reprehensible, NO.

Never wrote for alcohol, tobacco, or firearms. And today, would include supplements, although I would be very much a hypocrite, cause that too was bread and butter for a very long time.

I know a couple of writers who have made big bux selling guns. To collectors. I'm not anti gun, I grew up hunting and field dressing what I shot (and had to eat, or get my butt whipped). But I'm not going to write copy for that, so I agree with Frank, there is a moral component to it.

I can not recall anything I've ever sold that cost me sleep, and maybe because as a young teen I was exposed to the concept of giving people what they want, it is their money, and don't try to butt into people's lives and tell them what they need.

You want to buy cigars, cigarettes, tiparillos? Go ahead, just don't blow your smoke in my direction.

You want Vodka, Rum, Whiskey? Guns, knives, weapons of all sorts?

BUT, and this is the big but... my copy may have had hope, but it never had nonsensical promises, maybe a lot of thin line, weasel words as a work around...not sure...and even with good luck charms and such, it was never a promise, but more of a possibility. I was not going to become the arbiter of your good fortune. IF you thought a money tree would be good luck for you, who was I to tell you otherwise?

And an even bigger BUT...I did know writers who would say anything, promise anything, make outrageous and ridiculous statements just to make the sale. And they believe, as some copywriters are taught, that if people buy into these things, they get what they deserve. There are the Bernie Madoffs of our world too, some sit behind bars, and some should be there.

Thank you for your time and attention...now I've got some old pieces of the Brooklyn Bridge to sell along with some coal from the Titanic.

GordonJ

Cums a point when pashwaahn smoochies on reason.

"For sure prolly I could promo this schwango ... but Satan gonna have my soul, plus also mebbe even my TV."

Tellya, enthoosiasm is an eternally combustible incendary.

Which is why stuff nevah works out too good when your heart ain't on fire.

Dunno, but for Moi, when people bein' weasely 'bout stuff, the thrill of desirable horizons bein' lofted into view takes second place to a weird kinda hiss through teeth unveiled real rictusy.

max5ty I am not going to quote any of your post as it is all awesome. Not wanting to tire anyone out when reading it all as well is another reason. I was quite relaxed when mentioning keeping things on track as I have seen threads decay into chaos and be far away from where they started. I am all for a bit of banter and fun, but let us stay at least a little close to the point of origin.

Then hat tip to Ip Man.

Dude, think 'License Plate'...


COUGAR
WANTED

In print, one way on a forum is to create a "fill-in-the-blank" post (FIB post). We seem them on occasion here in the forum. I see them on Facebook all the time.

The FIB post has a purpose.. create engagement.

The FIB posts here on the forum can range from simple to sly. When I see them I typically quote the post and replace the keywords with a blank line, e.g. _____. Then I comment that the post is a FIB post. The Original Poster is caught red handed and the thread is usually closed.

Facebook is another story. The caliber of the majority of the Mods (if any) usually miss it and people get caught up in what I call a scam. By the time a Mod does take action it is usually too late - the damage is done.

If I had a email list I would send emails in the morning, I'd send emails in the afternoon, I'd send emails in the evening, all over the internet...
vs.
If I had a _____ I would _____ in the morning, I'd ______ in the afternoon, I'd _____ in the evening, all over the _____...
vs.
If I had a hammer I would hemmer in the morning, I'd hammer in the afternoon, I'd hammer in the evening, all over this land.

I may be wrong.

Hmmm, this all sounds familiar, now I think I know who one of their good copywriters is.

So one other thing...

I've also signed up for several T.V. Evangelists newsletters. SOME of the emails and letters I get closely resemble the stuff from the psychics.

There's a breakthrough coming. Money is headed my way. Miracles soon to be...

Now, having said that...don't think I don't believe there are some good ones. But, there obviously are some real doozies out there also that know how to make a buck.

Anyways, the last post I was going to include this link about the Barnum Effect and forgot to, so here it is if anyone is interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. people come in my store to buy a certain brand of vacuum cleaner, or a certain model. Usually in the $600-$1.200 price range.

I always ask why they are interested in that specific model (or brand).

Their reasons are almost never rational. They are either emotional (My Mom had one, made in the US) or based on a bias (buying a vacuum not suited for what they want).

Even if they have read extensive reviews, and done research, their reasons are really based on criteria having little to do with the actual product.

On the other hand, when I was selling $2,000 vacuum cleaners in people's homes, I had to build a desire to buy out of nothing. It required giving real reasons to buy, creating real value. Little of it was emotional. The closest thing was that I would tie this purchase to previous purchases they made...establishing a habit in their mind.

I would create openings in the presentation, where they could let emotions enter, creating their own emotional response.

When I sold to people that had never considered buying what I was selling before I got there, They had to justify their purchase with logic. But they had to do that before they bought, as well as after.

That's the difference between how I sold and how you sell. (And how I sell now). You are selling to people who already want what you have (or at least have an emotional itch), And I sell that way now as well. But I used to have to create all that myself, within a short visit.

The AIDA model works. Until he was arrested back in 2011 on 41 counts of fraud, the Don Lapre money making system was considered by the governement to pay down the $4.8 trillion federal budget deficit.

According to reputable sources, the Lapre system - which enabled ordinary federal legislators to make extraordinary sums of money right from their own Congressional chambers in less than 30 days using tiny classified ads--was initially proposed to Congress on Aug. 8, 1997 by U.S. Rep. John Kasich (R-OH).

Congress Erases Federal Deficit Using Don Lapre 'Making Money' System

that's an interesting insight.

I've made lots (and lots and lots and lots) of sales to people who had no real pain. They had no real need for what I sold. They had no urgent problem that needed solved. They simply wanted it when I was done.

There are some products that require pain or fear to sell (Fire alarms and burglar alarms come to mind), but even sales training doesn't really need to be sold by agitating their pain. They simply want to sell more, and sell more efficiently.

On the other hand, if you take the PAS route, I think you could use it to sell almost anything. I just don't know that it's necessary for every offer.