"AIDA is it still a viable way of structuring a pieceof writing or are there better one's to use?"

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Hi all, Looking to see peoples opinions on AIDA and if they think there are any better structures to use out there?
AIDA is very popular and I use a 5 step system that marries perfectly to AIDA.

This is is...
Introduction - headline and opener - Attention

Short story - who you are, what you are doing and why you are doing it - Interest

Presentation - biggest features after the headline and to strengthen
the benefit in the headline - Desire

Close - ask for the reader to take the desired action - Action

REHASH - this is used to consolidate the sale and reduce refunds

Yeah I know there is an extra bit but it does marry to AIDA.
Still, do you use AIDA or something else that you prefer?
Ian
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  • Profile picture of the author oppyeaunome
    AIDA is time tested and will be around long after we're all gone. I still use it and I know many people who still teach it.

    In fact, some of the copywriting courses I took over the last few months speak about AIDA. I mean if you follow it you can go wrong and that's why it's still powerful until this day.
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  • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

    Hi all, Looking to see peoples opinions on AIDA and if they think there are any better structures to use out there?
    AIDA is very popular and I use a 5 step system that marries perfectly to AIDA.

    This is is...
    Introduction - headline and opener - Attention

    Short story - who you are, what you are doing and why you are doing it - Interest

    Presentation - biggest features after the headline and to strengthen
    the benefit in the headline - Desire

    Close - ask for the reader to take the desired action - Action

    REHASH - this is used to consolidate the sale and reduce refunds

    Yeah I know there is an extra bit but it does marry to AIDA.
    Still, do you use AIDA or something else that you prefer?
    Ian
    AIDA is always going to be viable for one reason...it's so general that it can be interpreted in any way needed that works. It's almost as general as "Plan your work, and work your plan".

    Your opener better make the reader think "This is about me. This is something I need". It has to be far more specific than "grabbing attention". A two headed cow will grab attention, but it won't sell anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      Benefit laden and tell the reader W.I.I.F.M. Best radio station ever.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

        Benefit laden and tell the reader W.I.I.F.M. Best radio station ever.
        W.I.I.F.M is only part of the beginning of A in AIDA. Just getting prospects' attention in a noisy and crowded environment where they are continuously bombarded with often confusing or meaningless advertising is the first step.

        Once you have their attention, and show why they should listen to you, I use PAS: Problem + Agitation + Solution to pique their interest.

        The next step - Desire goes into the features with massaged benefits worked into emotional outcomes or results from using the product.

        The Action step seamlessly brings up the incentivized offer to urgently order the product and includes "proof", testimonials, guarantee, etc.

        I also include an ongoing step - customer Retention and followup.

        This is very simplified, and may look easy. But going from A to A in AIDA is a process, not one single event. It can take as little as a few minutes or many years for me to close some of my deals.
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        • Profile picture of the author ibramster
          Whilst I can agree that A is for Attention surely PAS would come in after the attention has been gained due to the meaning of the acronym as in Problem, etc.
          As for features massaged with benefits, why are copy writers and indeed salesmen of any type always taught to sell the sizzle (benefits) never the steak (features)?
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

            As for features massaged with benefits, why are copy writers and indeed salesmen of any type always taught to sell the sizzle (benefits) never the steak (features)?
            They are being taught wrong. People buy emotionally (through benefits), but justify the purchase logically by the features and specs. The sizzle alone without substance (the steak) is hype.
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            • Originally Posted by myob View Post

              The sizzle alone without substance (the steak) is hype.

              Jus' to fill the OP in, this ideah also uses sausage as a reference, cos they kinda sizzle also.


              (Euphonics fans will see how these simple statements have additional value, an' tbh my preference is always for the sausage bcs they are easiah to eat without a knife an' fork, an' when they bein' tossed at a barbie, they sumtimes sizzlin' so hard they spit.)
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post


                Jus' to fill the OP in, this ideah also uses sausage as a reference, cos they kinda sizzle also.
                Well, I came up with my own phrase that doesn't involve meat...

                "Sell The Buzz, Not The Beer"

                This could be the whole new standard in copywriting.
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            • Profile picture of the author ibramster
              I know that features are needed to help the sale process and benefits to drive it as it is benefits that create the emotion. It is benefits that create the emotion, benefits remove the pain. Features do not remove the pain the customer wants solving for them. Put simply a business has both benefits and features. Benefit could be that you are earning more, and a feature would be that it may involve longer hours as you do more than one job in the business. You couldn't sell a business on working longer hours, but you can sell it on earning you more.
              The buying decision is an emotional decision, it originates in the subconscious mind. This then has to be backed up by a decision by the conscious mind also called a logical decision. This usually comes down but is by no means limited to the risk negating done by the conscious mind on the guarantee or the potential or the value of the offer or all three or more.
              The conscious mind looks for ways to justify the decision made by the subconscious. The features of a brand new car like fuel efficiency or braking distance at speed and passenger safety rarely amount to as much as the feeling you get from driving it.
              Whilst I do agree that features are important,they do rank a close second to benefits in creating the initial buying decision.
              Tell people two things 1. what you are going to remove them from and 2. how you are going to do it, inspire them to do and be better.
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

                Put simply a business has both benefits and features. Benefit could be that you are earning more, and a feature would be that it may involve longer hours as you do more than one job in the business. You couldn't sell a business on working longer hours, but you can sell it on earning you more.
                In your business example, I'd suggest that earning more is still mostly a feature. The real benefits are what earning more means in practice e.g. self esteem, status, freedom.

                The other consideration when talking about any structured sales system is to understand where the prospects are in the buying process. If most of them are already sold on the features of a product, just associating one of their heroes with it might be the only benefit (or sales point) you need.
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                • Profile picture of the author DABK
                  Self-esteem? Status? Freedom?

                  You forget the good one: show that dumbass brother-in-law that yours is bigger than his.

                  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                  In your business example, I'd suggest that earning more is still mostly a feature. The real benefits are what earning more means in practice e.g. self esteem, status, freedom.

                  The other consideration when talking about any structured sales system is to understand where the prospects are in the buying process. If most of them are already sold on the features of a product, just associating one of their heroes with it might be the only benefit (or sales point) you need.
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          • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

            As for features massaged with benefits, why are copy writers and indeed salesmen of any type always taught to sell the sizzle (benefits) never the steak (features)?
            I agree with MYOB. This "Sell the sizzle, not the steak" is useful, but it gets passed around like gospel, because it's pithy.

            Sure you sell the sizzle....and the steak...but first you need to sell the idea that they really...really...want a steak. That a steak is the only thing that will solve their hunger problem.

            I think "sell the sizzle" really means to sell the steak (a commodity) by selling the restaurant, it's reputation, reviews from patrons, who else eats there, how it's rated online, the atmosphere, who they cater to (how fancy is the place)...and more.

            I think that most salespeople see "Sell the sizzle and not the steak" and get it wrong. People want steak. "Selling the sizzle" may make them want your steak instead of someone else's.

            As far as Features and benefits.....Here's my idea.

            I list every feature, and for every feature, I list every conceivable benefit. In my case, it's typically about 100 features and 300 benefits.

            The feature stays the same. But the benefits is always the one benefit that applies to them specifically. It makes the feature more valuable to them. But it can't be an either/or thing. Features and benefits go together.

            It's just my approach.
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            • Profile picture of the author ibramster
              I see your point, in a way, but a steak is a lump of meat and that is all. A carrot will solve your hunger as easily as a steak. To sell crap hotdogs just find a starving crowd.
              The sizzle is all the emotional attachment that comes with the steak. The feeling of the texture, the juices gliding over your tongue and tantilising your taste buds. The joy of feeling your belly fill up and all in the friendly, warm and inviting opulent restaurant. They would all be benefits and not features. Features are it is a lump of food that will stop your hunger. McD does that but not in the sale style. However their benefit could be - hungry? Get food now, no waiting. No finese but the same problem solved in a different manner.
              Yes everyone has one benefit that applies to them and that is why when selling anything in any format you do not limit yourself to using just one benefit. You use as many as it takes to get your message across and make the best shot of get the person to take the next action. If you don't, have you really done your job as a salesman and let's get real a copy writer is a salesman.
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              • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

                The sizzle is all the emotional attachment that comes with the steak. The feeling of the texture, the juices gliding over your tongue and tantalizing your taste buds. The joy of feeling your belly fill up and all in the friendly, warm and inviting opulent restaurant. They would all be benefits and not features. Features are it is a lump of food that will stop your hunger. .
                First, damn fine copy written right there.

                I think we interpret features differently. If I were going to list features of a steak , I might include:

                Hot
                juicy
                Sizzling when served
                cooked to order
                12 ounces
                choice of side dish

                To me, anything that describes what you are selling is a feature. The benefits are how that applies to you. What you get out of that feature.

                Your post illustrated though the difference between just listing a benefit, and making that benefit visceral. . Strong copy.

                It also has occurred to me that some of these visceral benefits may be easier to put in print, because they go directly to the brain, while hearing someone say "the juices gliding over your tongue and tantalizing your taste buds" may sound a tad odd.

                It may be a chief difference between language when selling in person, and language when writing sales copy.

                Anyway, I tend to talk in declarative sentences. This post is just how I think. I could be wrong.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  First, damn fine copy written right there.

                  I think we interpret features differently. If I were going to list features of a steak , I might include:

                  Hot
                  juicy
                  Sizzling when served
                  cooked to order
                  12 ounces
                  choice of side dish

                  To me, anything that describes what you are selling is a feature. The benefits are how that applies to you. What you get out of that feature.

                  Your post illustrated though the difference between just listing a benefit, and making that benefit visceral. . Strong copy.

                  It also has occurred to me that some of these visceral benefits may be easier to put in print, because they go directly to the brain, while hearing someone say "the juices gliding over your tongue and tantalizing your taste buds" may sound a tad odd.

                  If Princess replies to this she'll show us how it is really done.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  It may be a chief difference between language when selling in person, and language when writing sales copy.

                  Anyway, I tend to talk in declarative sentences. This post is just how I think. I could be wrong.

                  Period.
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                  • Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

                    If Princess replies to this she'll show us how it is really done.

                    Period.

                    Aaaaawkay.

                    What 2 things do we know 'bout time travel so far?

                    Could be ... you mebbe reset the dials sumhow an' revisit stuff as all kindsa observah.

                    ... Weird times you never felt.

                    .. Lost friends & fam.

                    . How the frickin' Egyptians actshwlly built all that shit.

                    But how we all seein' the fyootyure?

                    Any time machine flyin' us that place gotta be careful or there gonna be chaos.

                    Big dream I have rn is gowin' my regulah hair place an' gettin' fixed up so I don't look like no kinda tramp.

                    So I would wanna fly forward, style up, an' step out in the mall all swanky.

                    Secret I learned from yogah, where you chillin' out sweet in the moment, is no mattah how superperceptible your clarity 'bout WHAT IS ... you can't nevah touch the fyooture same.

                    An' yet, all the stuff you value rn ... how you almost wanna clutch it close like a baby, see what happens if'n you care right ... invites you to step forward an' see what may be.

                    Which means the fyooture gotta be touch close sumhow.

                    No mystery.

                    You can walk there, pick it up, use it, feel it -- whatevah.

                    Point is, you gotta feel some interactive catalyctic stuffs ain't jus' sum stoopid ideah.

                    Worst thing evah to happen to nowan is when the fyootyure got nuthin' in it.

                    All avenues exhausted.

                    He gone forevah.

                    I ain't musical so I dun for.

                    So how we gonna step out anyplace?

                    Fuse heart an' head till we don't jus' drop dead?

                    Ansa lies in bananas.

                    Either they stuff grows in trees -- like SQUIRREL CORPSES.

                    An' yeah -- you go lookin' for banana trees, you might end up with SQUIRREL GUTS all ovah your FACE bcs sumtimes them critters AIN'T QUITE DEAD an' WANNA FIGHT BACK WHEN YOU SQUISH 'EM.

                    Or ...

                    Kick Back. Peel Slow. Munch Good.
                    Here's health in the palm of your hand.

                    Where is Jooly 2020 rn?

                    Ain't nowan here couldn't sketch out sum kinda scenario pullin' on a weirdsy interaction between fact & dreamo.

                    So imagine for a sec sniffin' on a rose.

                    Deep red, crisp, scrunchin' your lips up close to your nose like you wanna kiss sumthin'.

                    (Less'n you got Corona, in which case you can't smell nuthin' -- which could mebbe pick up value as a desirable if'n it still here for the inevitable Thanksgivin' Family Fart Fest.)

                    Point is, we always attendin' to SUMTHIN'

                    (Less'n we zaaahmbies.)

                    So how may this immediately visible landscape flow out an' constructively bypass the shrill shriek of innumerable voids?

                    Depends whethah you want a fyooture fulla roses or farts, I guess.

                    Set your visceral barometers to the WANNA you actschwlly WANNA ...
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  • Profile picture of the author myob
    AIDA is a proven model and has been used for nearly a hundred of years. I learned from an early mentor more than 20 years ago about AIDAR - Attention Interest Desire Action Retention. The sales process includes ongoing promotions for customer followup and retention.

    There are many other models, but this seems to be elegantly simple, easy to train new copywriters, and every stage in this process can be checked, measured and optimized.
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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      Absolutely and I believe that is why it is so well liked. The 5 steps I use is as easy and helps to bolster AIDA and it would help with AIDAR to I believe. Simply because they can be set against each other; as friends so to speak. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author ibramster
    Thank you all, I find AIDA useful as it is simple. Coupled with the 5 steps I talk about really helps to shore up AIDA explaining it in a way that I can understand easier and quicker. Thank you for your comments, much appreciated. Hope I get more.
    May be some other things like AIDA could be offered?
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  • In print advertising (not exactly copywriting) my framework was always.

    Identify a problem that they want to solve right now. That's the headline. It helps if it sounds specific to them but really applies to a wide section of the readership.

    Offer an obvious solution to the problem, and build the value so that the price appears ridiculously low.

    Structure the offer so it will be difficult to comparison shop. I bundle my products so it's a single price for several items/benefits.

    Give them a reason to buy now. It may be an impending event, a price increase, a limited supply, almost any reason will work. It just needs to sound outside of your control. It can't be "I want you to buy now because I want your money".

    And then...lastly, how they buy, who you are, and where you are located. Nobody cares about you until they see that you have what they want. You can be introduced in a story, if it builds anticipation...or justifies buying now.

    In personal selling, my structure was almost always;
    Identify that they are likely to buy what I have. (A list of previous buyers, a demographic that usually buys what you sell, referrals from buyers, a business where your offer is repeatedly bought)

    Qualify them to determine that they have the ability to decide to buy and pay for what you have. Make sure they are the right prospect.

    Ask questions to make sure your offer can be presented as a perfect fit for them.

    Ask questions to clarify and amplify the problem(s) you are there to solve.

    Offer optional solutions to eliminate any competition, or the idea of shopping around.

    Ask questions to build value in what you offer, so the price will be a pleasant surprise. (give them the price as soon as it makes sense. The earlier, the better.

    Ask questions to create urgency, the cost of waiting.

    Offer options to move forward buying.

    Answer any lingering questions and solidify the sale in any way possible.

    I hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author ibramster
    All very good points and taken on board. They are all very closely related to what I teach my direct marketing students. Thank you again Claude. Appreciate your support.
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    • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

      All very good points and taken on board. They are all very closely related to what I teach my direct marketing students. Thank you again Claude. Appreciate your support.
      Another thing about AIDA or any sales framework is that the steps are not defined and sequential (First you do A. Then you do B) They overlap.

      For example, the entire presentation (or ad, or sales letter) can build value, magnify a problem, create scarcity (or at least urgency).

      Just another thought. Yes...yes, I love hearing myself talk.
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      • Profile picture of the author ibramster
        Totally they overlap, be crazy if they didn't. The starting point of getting the attention is one that is pretty hard to move though. Do you agree?
        It could be argued, and quite successfully, that the structure is there purely as a guide,and not a rigid pattern that has to be followed.
        Build value, yes, yes, yes.
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        • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

          Totally they overlap, be crazy if they didn't. The starting point of getting the attention is one that is pretty hard to move though. Do you agree?
          It could be argued, and quite successfully, that the structure is there purely as a guide,and not a rigid pattern that has to be followed.
          Build value, yes, yes, yes.
          Yes. Attention is the first thing always. But "Attention" can also mean identifying them as a high quality prospect. For example, if you advertise to airline pilots, a headline (maybe a pre-headline) could be "For Airline Pilots Only!".

          It grabs their attention, but pre-selects who the ad is for. and by narrowing the appeal it immediately sounds more selective, like nobody else can get this. The ad/letter could even be sent to a list of airline pilots...or the ad placed in Airline Pilots Monthly. It sounds selective, even though it will apply to just about everyone reading it.
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  • Ohh yes I'm a Euphonics fan so I am.

    But I'm about 97.8% vegeterian (chicken soup is the last barrier to blast).

    So, looks like it's sizzling, spitting, shooting sprouts for me.

    Yea - it's ok - I can do that.

    Just.


    Steve


    P.S. Can someone pass me some more olive oil?
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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      Love it; chicken soup the last barrier lol
      Not joining you on the sprout thing though.
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  • Profile picture of the author myob
    Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

    Totally they overlap, be crazy if they didn't. The starting point of getting the attention is one that is pretty hard to move though. Do you agree?
    Nearly all of my promotions (perhaps 90%) is spent getting attention and keeping it. For example, in the AIDA model, these are not steps in copywriting, but rather basic essential elements that need to be addressed throughout the entire sales process. Attention is difficult to get, but even more difficult to maintain. It overlaps everything.

    Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

    It could be argued, and quite successfully, that the structure is there purely as a guide,and not a rigid pattern that has to be followed.
    Build value, yes, yes, yes.
    AIDA is the framework for progressively building value leading to culmination of the sale. Yes, Value attracts attention. Yes, Value draws interest. Yes, Value builds desire. And yes, Value accumulates into action.
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  • When writing an attention grabbing headline.

    I often adapt with great care.

    Probably the best headline ever written - by the late great Jim Rutz.

    "Read This Or Die"


    Steve


    P.S. You get the idea - how this can work.

    First - as Claude mentioned earlier - select your audience.

    Subhead - For ______ Only

    Main Headline - MASSIVE Emotional Benefit or Loss - steeped in Curiosity.

    Sub Headline - A timeframe - why the good people must "do what you want them to do" immediately.
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  • Profile picture of the author ibramster
    Please allow me to, they are statements of facts. One issue does arise from this. If I or you was new to the copy writing/sales empire then what we have written may be confusing. Hell I reckon we confuse ourselves at times, I know I do. We all know that when we do get confused that we go back to basics (why? Because they are the foundations of everything we do). Why then when someone asks for help and they are a beginner do we seem to make things (like above) complicated for them? Should we not, if we are helping them, give them a super strong foundation in the basics from which they can emerge?
    Thoughts please.
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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    ibramster please use the quote feature in the Classic View. It makes it hard for members to see who you are talking too. Just highlight your name in the Black Header and scroll down and click on Classic View once.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jenny Gagnon
    As the world of advertising becomes more and more competitive, advertising becomes more and more sophisticated. Yet the basic principles behind advertising copy remain - that it must attract attention and persuade someone to take action. And this idea remains true simply because human nature doesn't really change. Sure, we become increasingly discerning, but to persuade people to do something, you still need to grab their attention, interest them in how your product or service can help them, and then persuade them to take the action you want them to take, such as buying your product or visiting your website.


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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      Yes Jenny you are right. Telling a story is a good way to get the narrative across as we as animals, as for sure we are, relate to stories. Especially if we see our self in that story, meaning that we relate to said story.
      Human nature doesn't change but the way we work with it can be made very complicated as we try to understand something that is essence is simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    "Sell The Sizzle, Not The Steak" started by Elmer Wheeler...who was a door to door vacuum salesman at 15. Reminds me of Claude.

    Quick tip: When you're describing something like someone described a steak above...try and use each of the five senses. Taste, smell, hearing, seeing, and touch. It's a simple guide to make sure you cover the bases and hits home better.

    Also remember, you can't create emotion, but you can trigger the emotions a person has. That's where really knowing your audience is important. You can try to create emotion...but that's when copywriting bombs. Good copy plays on the emotions a person already has concerning the problem you're trying to solve.

    Anyways, if you're in the mood to read an article on Mr. Wheeler, this is an interesting read:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1.../16/the-sizzle
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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      max5ty
      Good copy plays on the emotions a person already has concerning the problem you're trying to solve.
      Any good sales (as that is what copy writing is, sales in print) relies on the above. Take a person's emotions and use them to address the issue they face. Then solve it in a manner they connect with. Not every person will be a sale, in fact most will not be sales and should never be expected to be even from a hot lead. Unless that lead is asking to be sold to.
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  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    Benefits have their limitations if the ad writer
    hasn't taken into account what the reader
    has read, heard or experienced from

    direct competitors
    indirect competitors

    Indirect competitors are the sneakiest ones
    because they are totally of the radar to most.

    Let's give an example.

    In the home services sector,
    there are...

    plumbers,
    hvac
    roofers
    electricians,
    aborists
    lawncare
    new driveways
    new pools
    maintenance of pools
    new siding
    new windows
    garage doors
    painting
    new kitchens
    new kitchen benchtops
    deck builders
    sun shades
    landscapers


    and on and on.

    Once a home owner has called a few
    of them she will recognize a pattern.

    That pattern will be they turn up late,
    don't do what they said they will do
    don't clean up after them.

    Now the plumber who doesn't fit into those three
    is still going to get tainted by anyone or more
    of the others she has called
    to her home.

    If a plumber is not like those three and doesn't address
    her distrust for ANY tradesman that turns up on her property
    then he is doing a disservice to himself and potential customers that will
    never get the experience of a painless
    experience it could of been.

    What advertisers think are benefits and what the audience think are,
    can be in most cases two worlds apart.

    You bridge that gap by understanding what bad experiences
    the potential buyer has had within your industry and the broader sector.

    Don't call it out in your ad then say "we aren't like that".

    .

    You just took the power of making their own mind away.

    Here's how to fix it...

    Start by naming the problem
    then your solution so it will never happen again.

    Now this is more suited to products and services that the majority of the population
    understands.

    Sticking with tradespeople or in my case lawncare,
    I used the problem solution in the headline.

    It's worked for plumbers and electricians,
    Print and digital media. 5 years apart.

    My classified newspaper headline was...

    "I Will Turn Up On Time, Will Do What I Say,
    Clean Up After Me...If Not, I Will Pay You $1,000.
    You Are The Sole Judge."

    Here's the plumber ad YP headline..

    OLD HEADLINE: Need A Plumber
    A local master plumber!

    NEW HEADLINE: On Time... Every time...& we clean up...guaranteed!
    Or we Pay YOU $39

    Difference?

    $183,203
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    • Profile picture of the author ibramster
      ewenmack not going to quote here as it is not needed. Every person that is looking for a solution wants only one thing, their issue solved. In short what is in it for me is what they are asking. They want the best value deal they can get. That doesn't mean cheapest, it means best value. By them looking for the best value they are by nature looking at benefits over features.
      The benefits will get their attention and the sale this then must be backed u by a logical decision. Needing a plumber is pretty crucial when they are needed, as are most trades, but to have one say they will tidy up when finished or pay you is a huge benefit that differentiates them from the others. Yes they would definitely get my trade.
      I am not saying that features do not have their place, they do, just that sales are driven by emotions (at least in the first part) and features do not elicit or support or play on emotions. They (features) are excellent at backing up and supporting benefits. That is my opinion. Your opinion was an excellent point as well. I enjoyed reading it. Loved the spin on the ad copy as well, very good. Can I pinch the idea? Oh go on, be a sport.
      Signature
      fastbusinessgrowth4u.com Direct marketing coach and guest writer. Always looking to network with site/blog and list owners. PM me.
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    • Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post


      What advertisers think are benefits and what the audience think are,
      can be in most cases two worlds apart.
      Ewen; THAT...That right there is one of the top advertising/selling secrets. And it's a mistake I see over and over again in sales........

      Salespeople thinking that it's the customer's job to see the benefits, and refusing to ask the questions that will fit the benefits to the individual customer.
      A salesperson saying "That guy's an idiot because he didn't see the benefit in...." is evidence of a rep that tried to force his own list of "benefits" onto the customer.

      And there are some salespeople, maybe most, that will do that their entire lives, and never see their mistake.
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  • I am trying to figure out how the Misinformers of the Internet gain so much attention...they can not be reading books on this stuff.


    Feels great to visit the Copy Writing Section after a while away.

    Alot of Copy Warriors seem to be M.I.A.?
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Profit Traveler View Post

      I am trying to figure out how the Misinformers of the Internet gain so much attention...they can not be reading books on this stuff.


      Feels great to visit the Copy Writing Section after a while away.

      Alot of Copy Warriors seem to be M.I.A.?
      Nearly all of the most successful copywriters actually are too busy using their skills for promoting their own programs to pay any attention to self-styled goo-roos! Those who can just do it, but those who can't just teach it.
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        Nearly all of the most successful copywriters actually are too busy using their skills for promoting their own programs to pay any attention to self-styled goo-roos! Those who can just do it, but those who can't just teach it.
        I enjoy your posts, but I would disagree with the part I highlighted in bold.

        Clayton Makepeace, the highest-paid copywriter in history...or at least one of the top depending on who you ask...and if you ask other top copywriters they'll tell you he is and is responsible for making his clients more money than anyone else...

        used to do a ton of teaching. He not only taught but is responsible for some of the best copywriters in the business. Some post here from time to time.

        But anyways, I was sad to see his sight was no longer active. I would guess it had something to do with his passing. Then I remembered something...

        the Wayback Machine.

        If you want to learn from one of the greatest you can still visit his site using the Wayback Machine. It is loaded with teaching...some of the best you'll ever find, and it's all free.

        But then there's Bencivenga, Schwab, Ogilvy, Kennedy, Schwartz (and the list goes on)...all worth millions have taught.

        I think there's something about someone who has achieved great success...they want to pass on what they've discovered.

        So, just a little disagreement there...

        Edit: Should have also added there are a lot of people that post on here that are successful and still give tips and advice.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          I enjoy your posts, but I would disagree with the part I highlighted in bold.
          You didn't highlight "Nearly all". In my experience, the exceptions are rare, mainly because it takes exceptional patience and effort (and a significant pay cut) by professional high earners in copywriting to teach.
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        • Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          I enjoy your posts, but I would disagree with the part I highlighted in bold.

          Clayton Makepeace, the highest-paid copywriter in history...or at least one of the top depending on who you ask...and if you ask other top copywriters they'll tell you he is and is responsible for making his clients more money than anyone else...

          used to do a ton of teaching. He not only taught but is responsible for some of the best copywriters in the business. Some post here from time to time.

          But anyways, I was sad to see his sight was no longer active. I would guess it had something to do with his passing. Then I remembered something...

          the Wayback Machine.

          If you want to learn from one of the greatest you can still visit his site using the Wayback Machine. It is loaded with teaching...some of the best you'll ever find, and it's all free.

          But then there's Bencivenga, Schwab, Ogilvy, Kennedy, Schwartz (and the list goes on)...all worth millions have taught.

          I think there's something about someone who has achieved great success...they want to pass on what they've discovered.

          So, just a little disagreement there...

          Edit: Should have also added there are a lot of people that post on here that are successful and still give tips and advice.

          You used a hell of an example my friend. The Tributes for Clayton from other Copy Writers alone are awe-inspiring.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          I think there's something about someone who has achieved great success...they want to pass on what they've discovered..
          I agree. Not in every case.....but after you have had success in a field for decades, and you start seeing your own mortality....it seems like such a waste to let all this accumulated wisdom just disappear.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Those who say copywriting and sales are the same do not understand copywriting nor sales.
          I agree. Selling in print is different than selling in person. The language is different.Selling is two way, rather than one way communication. There are other differences.

          I'm a salesman who has studied copywriting/marketing/advertising. And I can tell you that the biggest gains I made in income were after I became a serious student of selling in print.

          And the idea of studying marketing/copywriting to multiply your sales efficiency is so foreign to salespeople, that I have to avoid the word "marketing" when teaching salespeople. To them, it's a whole different thing. I teach it as highly advanced selling, which it is.

          If I were going to explain it to a salesperson, I would say...

          "Imagine you are sitting in front of a prospect. And you are going to try to make a sale.
          All you know about this person is that they can read, and that they broadly fit into a category of people that have bought your offer in the past.

          But...you cannot ask them any questions, and they cannot answer you. Their face never changes expression. You will never know what they are thinking, because you cannot ask. You don't know their level of interest, level of understanding, what competitors they have talked to. You are almost completely blind going in.

          And now...you have to attempt to give them every benefit that they could possibly want, answer every question they could reasonably ask, and completely solve every objection they could reasonably raise. You have to predict their train of thinking as you talk, without any feedback. At the end, they either give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down, with no explanation as to why they decided that way. Go"

          Writing sales copy isn't the same as selling. It's harder.

          It reminds me of the story of The Great Gama. The Undefeated Indian wrestler. His prowess was mythic. One day a young man (who would become The Mighty Atom) asked Gama how he trained.

          Gama told the young man "I'll tell you one thing I do. Every day I go outside and find a strong tree. And for three hours a day, I try to uproot the tree and throw it on the ground."

          The young man asked "Did you ever uproot the tree?" Gama said "No. That's impossible". And the young man asked "Then why do you do it?"

          And The Great Gama said "Because after a tree, a man is easy"

          I study copywriting because it's harder than selling.
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          • Profile picture of the author socialentry
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            And the idea of studying marketing/copywriting to multiply your sales efficiency is so foreign to salespeople, that I have to avoid the word "marketing" when teaching salespeople. To them, it's a whole different thing. I teach it as highly advanced selling, which it is.

            If I were going to explain it to a salesperson, I would say...

            "Imagine you are sitting in front of a prospect. And you are going to try to make a sale.
            All you know about this person is that they can read, and that they broadly fit into a category of people that have bought your offer in the past.

            But...you cannot ask them any questions, and they cannot answer you. Their face never changes expression. You will never know what they are thinking, because you cannot ask. You don't know their level of interest, level of understanding, what competitors they have talked to. You are almost completely blind going in.

            And now...you have to attempt to give them every benefit that they could possibly want, answer every question they could reasonably ask, and completely solve every objection they could reasonably raise. You have to predict their train of thinking as you talk, without any feedback. At the end, they either give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down, with no explanation as to why they decided that way. Go" .

            If the only feedback you have is go/no-go, how do you know if the X or Y rule is bunk or not?


            Even if you're doing A/B testing, it's at best an approximation: there are far more factors that aren't under the control of the copywriter.

            In visual arts,there's something called composition (e.g. in a painting, it's meant to draw the viewers' eye to certain specific elements).It wasn't until scientists actually did eye tracking on random viewers that we now know certain rules aren't actually true. So how do we know that this isn't what is happening here? Or is it just another case of "we don't know, but it's better then nothing"


            Also, if you're selling to a broader range of people, does the idea of "selling something that doesn't apply to them" also turn them off?
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          • Profile picture of the author SARubin
            Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

            AIDA is it still a viable way of structuring a piece of writing or are there better one's to use
            Of course it's viable, Ian. As long as we take AIDA for what it is. It's a guide post (one of many), not a magic formula.

            Rather than give a long drawn out answer here, I'll just point you to this other thread that shares my opinion of AIDA...

            https://www.warriorforum.com/main-in...l#post11550930




            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            "Imagine you are sitting in front of a prospect. And you are going to try to make a sale.
            All you know about this person is that they can read, and that they broadly fit into a category of people that have bought your offer in the past.

            But...you cannot ask them any questions, and they cannot answer you. Their face never changes expression. You will never know what they are thinking, because you cannot ask. You don't know their level of interest, level of understanding, what competitors they have talked to. You are almost completely blind going in.

            And now...you have to attempt to give them every benefit that they could possibly want, answer every question they could reasonably ask, and completely solve every objection they could reasonably raise. You have to predict their train of thinking as you talk, without any feedback. At the end, they either give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down, with no explanation as to why they decided that way. Go"

            Writing sales copy isn't the same as selling. It's harder.

            Wonderful analogy, Claude. I do believe you nailed it with that one.

            They are different and they have different requirements.

            And they also have different numbers attached to them.

            My face-to-face closing rate averages north of 70%, but I'm happy as a dog wagging two tails if a sales page even gets close to double digits.

            The flip side of that is I can sell to 1,000,000 people at a time with the written word. So the response rates don't need to be as big, to get the same bottom line.


            .
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Great sales people use AIDA to sell a drill bit.

      Great copywriters use AIDA as complete solutions to people wanting to make holes.
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      • Profile picture of the author ibramster
        Great sales people use AIDA to sell a drill bit.

        Great copywriters use AIDA as complete solutions to people wanting to make holes.
        Copy writers are sales people, they simply use a different medium. One is the spoken word and one is the written word. Both sales.

        And that too!
        By which I reckon you mean get the thread back on track?

        If a sales person is selling drill bits then they are in the wrong job. Selling the hole is the job or any sales person, copy writers included.
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        fastbusinessgrowth4u.com Direct marketing coach and guest writer. Always looking to network with site/blog and list owners. PM me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Profit Traveler
          Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

          Copy writers are sales people, they simply use a different medium. One is the spoken word and one is the written word. Both sales.

          By which I reckon you mean get the thread back on track?

          If a sales person is selling drill bits then they are in the wrong job. Selling the hole is the job or any sales person, copy writers included.

          Roger that. You are the O.P. and I like good follow up with no abandonment.

          I have a thread myself that was going around the world on discussions I had to modify the Title so I feel you.
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      • Profile picture of the author ibramster
        If a sales person is selling drill bits then they are in the wrong job. Selling the hole is the job or any sales person, copy writers included.
        Signature
        fastbusinessgrowth4u.com Direct marketing coach and guest writer. Always looking to network with site/blog and list owners. PM me.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Great marketers use AIDA with copywriting and multi-channel sales in a continuous loop of customer engagement. We call this branding.

      Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

      Copy writers are sales people, they simply use a different medium. One is the spoken word and one is the written word. Both sales.
      Those who say copywriting and sales are the same do not understand copywriting nor sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author ibramster
    Everyone that has contributed, thank you for your input. I started this thread to see if people still see any relevance in AIDA. It has raised some other interesting points along the way and I would not like to see the thread degrade into conversations about pro copy writers do this or that and not the other. Please can we try and have the thread discuss whether AIDA and other such tools are useful tocopy writers of all standards please?
    Signature
    fastbusinessgrowth4u.com Direct marketing coach and guest writer. Always looking to network with site/blog and list owners. PM me.
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    • Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

      Everyone that has contributed, thank you for your input. I started this thread to see if people still see any relevance in AIDA. It has raised some other interesting points along the way and I would not like to see the thread degrade into conversations about pro copy writers do this or that and not the other. Please can we try and have the thread discuss whether AIDA and other such tools are useful tocopy writers of all standards please?

      And that too!
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      • Profile picture of the author ibramster
        And that too!
        By which I reckon you mean get the thread back on track?
        Signature
        fastbusinessgrowth4u.com Direct marketing coach and guest writer. Always looking to network with site/blog and list owners. PM me.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by ibramster View Post

      I would not like to see the thread degrade into conversations about pro copy writers do this or that and not the other. Please can we try and have the thread discuss whether AIDA and other such tools are useful tocopy writers of all standards please?
      After about 40 years in the business, and having worked with some of the biggest companies and names in the world, I would just say this...

      it's ok to lighten up and have fun with discussions sometimes.

      My mastermind group of friends (which I've talked about before) have gotten together for a few years. We laugh and joke and have fun...but we've came up with ideas that have created millions of dollars.

      So having said all that...

      AIDA has been around since the early 1900's. The concept was started by Elias St. Elmo Lewis over several years.

      If you're a copywriter/marketer and don't use AIDA you're probably not very knowledgeable about what you're doing.

      You grab their attention and hold their interest long enough to build the desire for them to take action.

      However, there are several variations you can incorporate into the principle.

      You can use the problem, agitate, solution...you can use AIDCA, ACCA...the list goes on. But whatever variation you use, it should always follow the AIDA principle.

      What some don't understand is that it's possible to use the AIDA principle in one photograph, or one picture and a headline...there are a ton of ways to use it without writing long sales pages.

      Some successful companies will use a portion of it over several ads and cultivate the principle over time.

      Everyone that is anyone uses the principle even if it has variations added to it.

      So since I mentioned different formulas, here's an interesting article:

      https://copyhackers.com/2015/10/copywriting-formula/

      Credit was first given to Elias St. Elmo Lewis in the 1925 book, "The psychology of selling and advertising," by Edward Strong.

      The good news is the University of Michigan has digitized it and you can read it for free. It's an interesting read and I'd recommend it.

      https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000475708
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  • Profile picture of the author Teright03
    I've been using AIDA in the posts I write for my niche site, and I've got great numbers on "session duration" and "bounce rate".

    It does a great job of retaining readers and selling the next click at the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    I do not fear the copywriter who has mastered 10,000 formulas. I fear the copywriter who has practiced one 10,000 times.

    For me, that formula is AIDA.

    Great to see this group is still alive and kickin'!

    P.S. Hat tip to Bruce Lee.
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