To be honest, I can't even finish reading much of Clayton Makepeace's copy. Too many logical fallacies, divisive language, etc. So, I've stayed away...though I've posted on his blog with appeals to him to relax :-)

I just finished John Carlton's SWS and am a happy camper.

If I were you... Both.

If you really had to choose one. Bencivenga. More persuasion tricks than you can shake a stick at.

Dear BT:

I love Clayton's work best, I own his stuff, the Desktop Copycoach and the Summit DVDs. If you are starting out in copywriting that is the way to go. Gary's B's. is for different markets. I do IM copywriting and Yanik Silver is a good one to follow but they all have their positives and it just depends on the market you want to write for.

Clayton is for both direct mail and web copy
Gary B is more direct mail
Yanik Silver for web copy

You can buy Yanik's Internet Marketing Copywriting Course on ebay for a couple hundred bucks. But his old course is not as good as Claytons new Desktop Copycoach.

I have invested thousands in my copywriting education, and now am listed # 7 on elance for "copywriter" and "copywriting" if you want more info then let me know.

I have completed over 40 copywriting projects this last year just on elance.

Glad to help you if you want more info.

Jennie

Clayton is really good.

But I'm going with Gary Bencivenga.

I love them both and they have their particular strengths. I make it
a habit to learn from all the best rather than trying to determine who
tops who.

But I guess when those kind of prices are involved you want to know
you are spending your money well.

-Ray Edwards

Which one of Claytons courses costs 7 grand?

I have claytons ultimate desktop course. Its very through. I would recommend it. Garys stuff is a little to expensive for me.

Hope that helps

Art P.

I'm still in the learning phase but I like Clayton the best. The easiest to learn from and start right away with producing copy. Bencivenga is my next step after I have conquered the world.

Sara

The question is like a director trying to decide on Russel Crowe or Brad Pitt for a role - you can't really go wrong with either.

Wow, I don't know how many times I've heard this question asked here. Really? Is that the question?

Seriously, of course they are both good. Why does it have to be this over that or that over this.

Look, copywriting is about salesmanship in print. Can you sell in person? How do you do it? Well, that's how you do it in print. Attention-interest-desire-action blah blah...no bull. That's what works. Counter objections etc...ask for the sale.

You can spend all your money if you want to and both of these courses would probably be money well spent. But...if you want to make money as a copywriter here's the deal.

1. If you want to write copy for other people's projects get on the phone, go to business owners, etc... and start selling your services. You'll learn front-line salesmanship and how to get clients. When you get projects sooner or later you'll learn copywriting.
2. If you want to write copy for your own projects just start writing. No demo, test BS either. Write copy for your products and put your best foot forward. After you've written something stop. Give yourself a couple of days and rewrite your project again. Do this over and over with real projects attempting each time to beat your control.

Look at classic sales letters. Be a student. Read and write classic sales letters by hand to get a feel for what works.

Study headlines, Body, Transitions, Offers, and Closes. A couple of good tactics can carry you.

There is no magic bullet. Neither Clayton or Bencivenga are going to make you a great copywriter. You are. Get writing and quit looking for the magic bullet.

Work-work-work! Write copy.

There are other ways of looking at the question. As some have pointed out, BOTH are great copywriters. You could learn a lot from both of them. "Better" is a subjective word, that depends quite a lot on opinion. (But then, that's what you asked for ... our individual unique, subjective opinions.)

There are also a lot of OTHER great copywriters, some of whom are behind the scenes, and don't "blow their trumpet" quite as loudly, as well as some that do.

You can probably learn the fundamentals of copywriting from ANY good copywriter, and you will probably pick up some new insights, tricks and techniques from EVERY good copywriter. No one copywriter "knows it all", despite their sales pitch, and whether they've been doing it for 37 years

Humans are terrified of making "the wrong choice". They choose A and then look over their shoulders to B and C and wonder... what if B and C were better? What am I missing out on? Then they look at A with different eyes and think, "This person isn't telling me everything... I've been scammed... I've wasted my time... I need B instead!"

Then they buy B, and the story repeats itself.

Pick ONE or the other for now... (don't buy both)... buy it, and study it as if it were THE ONLY copywriting product on the entire planet... gain MASTERY of it... and make money from it. Lots.

And THEN buy the other, when you can afford the other one. And add to your store of knowledge.

Don't make the mistake of worrying about the grass being greener on the other side. The other person's lawn may look a little smoother, but it's still a lawn, and it's looking "greener" is probably an optical illusion.

100 years seminar is great

Hi All,

I had a nice guy from this forum send me a quick note about this thread. (I will keep his name confidential). I am glad he had took the effort to do so. He is kind and deserves a pat on the back for being a considerate human being.

This post is to answer Bill Platt's and Jill Carpenter's comments about me...

It seems like they want to know more about my history and why I can say what I do.
(I don't like to write about my stats on elance here, as I have many Warrior and Clickbank clients too. I wish I could show Warrior income stats but I can't since we don't have a Warrior Copywriting rating system here.)

But since they ASKED I have to respond to their questions...

So here goes...

Yes, I have been writing copy for over 14 years now, building websites, creating graphic designs, writing copy for websites/sales letters and running SEO campaigns with my own successful business. I have a web programming degree and a graphic design degree as well as SEO training (at StomperNet) in addtion to studying everything I can about copywriting.

** THIS IS IMPORTANT**

Most copywriters (male or female) DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF anywhere that anyone can check their REAL STATS -- just their say so.

With that thought in mind, (and in response to the posts above) MY PROOF IS HERE.

You can go to elance.com and do a search you will find me at the top of the list of copywriters there. (Maybe the Warrior Forum should have a rating and feedback system like this too for their Work For Hire Section.)

If you click the button for "Hire" then click on the drop down for "Contractors" and type in "Copywriter" YOU CAN SEE I am # 2, out of 17,050 copywriters, TODAY, May 21, 2012.

Out of over (1 - 25 of 17,050 results) Copywriter Professionals.

Marisa and I switch back and forth as # 1 and # 2 spots as top copywriter.

I am # 1 on elance for "Direct Response Copywriter"

https://www.elance.com/r/contractors...e%20copywriter

Here are my income stats of over $39,000 NET PROOF in just last year just from elance from copywriting alone. (elance takes 8.75% off the top plus I pay a monthly membership fee to be listed in their profiles.)

https://www.elance.com/s/edit/seoexpertconsulting/

Please remember that is only 40% of my income. I am doing less projects on elance now, as I am getting many more clients outside of elance and many more from the Warrior forum than I used to. (This does not include the income from any conversion bonuses.)

If you click on lifetime link on the right in the box, it is $138,592 -- $639 Total Per Client. Which is not too bad an average per project for a freelance for hire site. (Especially where you are BIDDING for jobs!)

I have only been on elance since August 2008. So technically it is almost 4 years that I have hung out my shingle as a "professional copywriter" on elance with PROOF.
But I have been writing copy for websites, landing pages, email series, etc, since 1998.

You can see my testimimonials too. On elance you can not change any feedback so all of these fine people think I deliver great copy for the money.

I have completed 299 projects in the last 4 years on elance alone. I write all my own copy.

I HAVE 6 ELANCE PROJECTS RIGHT NOW. I am booked full for quite a while...

If you click on Job History you can see my stats.

https://www.elance.com/s/edit/seoexp...b-history/?t=1

I have to admit some of the feedback I receive from my happy and well satisfied clients amazes even me. I work hard for my clients and they really appreciate my going the extra mile and they love all the money I make for them.

Now remember these are not my high end clients, and I have received copy jobs for many high profile Warriors right from this forum.

So for those of you that say I talk big... well to be honest, yes, I do. But I have the stats to show for it.

Do you?

elance is where I get about 40% of my clients. 30% is past clients and 30% is from my website. Most of the larger launches come from my website leads. And from my Product Launch Copywriter website.

If you do a search for and Google "salesletter copywriter" you will see my website is # 1 out of over 458,000 results! I do SEO right so I don't have to pay $5.00 + a click for my leads like other copywriters do.

I have received projects and written copy for well known gurus such as: Brad Callen, Ken McCarthy and Andy Jenkins from Stompernet, and many top 20 Clickbank marketers -- all from an elance contact.

So do know you can get many high profile clients from elance. elance's new rules require you have to do projects for 2 years through elance now if they find you there. I abide by all of elance's terms of use and that is just an FYI for all of you.

I have to admit the Warriors that contact me are for the most part, nice people to work with and I write copy for them too.

THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS MIKE...

QUOTE FROM MIKE....

And... Like Mike Humphreys said "One more thing... There's a lot of people out there who say they're a professional copywriter... but don't command the types of fees or write as frequently as an in-demand professional copywriter does."

Guess that must be why I am always booked... (Mike would say I am billing way too cheap!)

Thanks to all of you who wrote nice comments, I do greatly appreciate it. All of the professional copywriters are a "pro copywriter" are one... BECAUSE of the way they TREAT people as well as write copy that converts!

Good luck with your copywriting business!

Deffinately Clayton

Hey All,

WOW!

These comments really tell me a LOT about you and your copywriting businesses....

I want to thank you all for sharing your insights and your comments. They tell me a lot about the person you are inside too and your motivations.

This has been very interesting reading indeed!

As I read the comments I received a bunch of thoughts -- some good and some not so good...

My business plan and goals for my own business are these...

The last 4 years I have written copy and created spectacular designs for many successful and money earning Clickbank launches. Before that I wrote plenty of SEO copy and landing pages.

But Clickbank is a hard nut to crack and get high conversions. As a copywriter, if you have ever written copy for a Clickbank launch you know exactly what I am talking about.

For example:

With one client who used my services for his 3 Clickbank launches last year he banked over $100,000 NET income the first day on each of them. He when on to NET over $500,000 with these 3 launches in less than 90 days. Most of the sites are taken down after the launches (usually after 90 days) but you may have heard of the highest earning launch which was "Instant Mass Money".

That's not bad, I hope to do better with the new launches I have already booked this summer.

I get residuals on these launches and if you include that residual income, that makes me a solid six figure copwriter.

My residuals on a launch are many times what I am paid to write the launch copy.

I have written launch copy for Chris X, Mo Latif and for Joe Walter and they are the TOP Clickbank sellers.

I am booked for launches - 1 a month, for the next 6 months...

Most of my launches are paid privately so there is no record of them that is easily verifiable...

Just so you know...

I do the elance work for FUN!

I get bored writing IM copy all the time. I like the variety of projects I get from elance, from weight loss, and self help to most any type of product you can think of.

To comment on what you said about building my own business, I have my OWN products that I test market and sell too.

FYI...

I HAVE OWNED AND OPERATED A FULL TIME WEB DESIGN BUSINESS SINCE 1998, and that has been my ONLY source of income.

BTW... Prospective clients READ THESE REPLIES...

So I always think about what I write and do my best to be a warm, kind and giving person first, and a copywriter second and a business builder third, because money is NOT the driving force in my business.

Loving what I DO each day and being PROUD of what I do and what clients say about me is MUCH more important than the money.

Good luck to all on your businesses and make the FORCE be with you!

Neither.

Once you go Garf, you can never go back.

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