Top Copywriting Programs / Home Study Course

43 replies
Yes I know we have a book selection but some people may want more. So I'd like to get a list of Copywriting Programs people have enjoyed and found useful.

Tim
#copywriting #home #programs #study #top
  • Profile picture of the author Rick Johansson
    I really got A LOT out of John Carlton's "Kick Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel"...it's by far my favorite.

    Rick
    Signature
    Rick Johansson M.S: "Expert Of Earning HONEST Long-Term Internet Income"

    Are You Committing The 5 STUPID Mistakes That Could Be ROBBING You From Earning LONG-Term Internet Income? Click Here To Find Out!.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1469633].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings.
    Brilliant.

    - Rick Duris
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1471119].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KristiDaniels
    I like everything by John Carlton, Brian Keith Voiles and Michel Fortin.

    And, of course... the late, great Sir Gary Halbert.

    My own stuff isn't bad either.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1471162].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Thomas O'Malley
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1471887].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

    Yes I know we have a book selection but some people may want more. So I'd like to get a list of Copywriting Programs people have enjoyed and found useful.

    Tim

    Tim,

    So, in other words, you're looking for a way to pay $300 to $2,000 for what you could learn in a book for $15?

    It's funny how the price multiplies by a factor of ten (or more) when the word "course" is used in place of the word "book."

    Johnny
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1472314].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Tim,

      So, in other words, you're looking for a way to pay $300 to $2,000 for what you could learn in a book for $15?

      It's funny how the price multiplies by a factor of ten (or more) when the word "course" is used in place of the word "book."

      Johnny
      No Johnny.

      What I am looking to do is get together a list of highly recommended copywriting courses for people who are interested.

      We already have a book selection thread.

      Tim
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1473259].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Matt James
        Clayton Makepeace's Ultimate Desktop Copy Coach.

        To say it's 'in-depth' would be an understatement.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1473740].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Matt James
          That's next on my list (after I have gone over Carlton's SWS
          several times)
          You'll get a lot out of it Paul, and -- contrary to popular belief -- you can't get everything from the $15 books. The Makepeace course (and the Carlton one) prove that in my very humble opinion.

          (Although Paul, if you want to really speed up your success, grab a mentor, PM if you want to chat more...)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1474144].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
      Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

      How many $300-$2,000 courses have you tried? If none, come back
      when you have an educated opinion.

      ps, I have spent more than $1k on a course and it was well worth it.

      Paul,

      How many expensive copywriting courses have I tried?

      Exactly ONE. I bought it used, on eBay. It was a very popular "course" by a well-known "guru." That's how I came to realize that a lot of those "courses" are probably like "the emperor's new clothes" -- there really isn't much there.

      I learned FAR, FAR more from Vic Schwab's $14 book than I did from that "course." Besides, where do you think the "gurus" learned about copywriting? I'll tell you -- from the classic books by Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, and Ogilvy.

      In the decades that I've been studying copywriting, the only really "new" info I've come across is in Cialdini's book, Persuasion... it's about $15.

      Johnny
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475090].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Oh my goodness--are we once again looking for the single magic, silver bullet?

        Here's how it (really) works:

        Years ago in the dark ages of computers, I was a programmer. I wanted to learn everything about a specific computer language or operating system. I ferreted out EVERYTHING that was available.

        And I would buy everything. No matter what.

        Money was not a speed bump in my quest to learn.

        It was not uncommon for me to buy 5 or 10 books at a crack on a single subject. I would not just consume them--I would inhale them.

        Now admittedly, some of the books were BS. Yes, there was tremendous overlap. But some books resonated with me at the deepest levels and I learned and applied a ton.

        You may not understand this line of learning, but I can tell you this:

        A couple of years ago, one of my associates and I bought EVERY BOOK AVAILABLE on business and marketing strategy. At the time, there were about 200+ books just on Amazon. We went way beyond.

        Then we paid college interns to summarize every book down to it's bare essence.

        The best ones we read personally.

        Stated differently, there is no BEST copywriting course or book. There is NO copywriting holy grail. To be the best, you want to immerse yourself in EVERYTHING copywriting and let it infuse every cell of your being.

        The best resource for you is the one that resonates with you, encourages you, inspires you to apply the information and makes a definitive difference in your learning and tangible results.

        Now you may say "I don't have the cash." I understand and acknowledge, but there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books on copywriting and marketing. I was in a used book store yesterday and found 3 books on copywriting I did not already own. Paid about $20.

        I was the kid in the proverbial candy shop.

        For instance, take the Robert Cialdini book "Influence." Did you know there is a VERY similar book written in 1894? Yep, it's in the public domain.

        GREAT, GREAT, GREAT books, authors and practitioners have been mentioned on this thread. The courses mentioned are great too. But there are many, many others. The majority are incredibly inspiring as well as educational.

        I own them all and review them every year, at least once. Sharpen the saw, as Stephen Covey and Abraham Lincoln advise.

        It's kinda like music--to each his own. Your favorite ones, you'll listen to over and over and over.

        Then they become a part of you and then you can't get them out of your head. And that's when you get your license to print money.

        - Rick Duris
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475301].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Johnny, I think Rick summarized the debate best of all.

          Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

          The best ones we read personally.

          Stated differently, there is no BEST copywriting course or book. There is NO copywriting holy grail. To be the best, you want to immerse yourself in EVERYTHING copywriting and let it infuse every cell of your being.

          The best resource for you is the one that resonates with you, encourages you, inspires you to apply the information and makes a definitive difference in your learning and tangible results.
          I'm a fan of both the copywriting classics and the big courses because I am a fanatical perpetual student of copywriting. One of my long-term goals is when I finish my copywriting career many, many years from now that I could be considered one of the best ever by my peers.

          So I study and write copy everyday and have done so for years. Time will tell if I ever reach that goal, but it's a goal that I believe is worth pursuing and if I don't ever reach that goal... well, I'm going to enjoy pursuing it and making a lot of money for my clients and me over the next 30 years.

          Some of what I've studied has been great. Other stuff has been weak or didn't deliver the goods for me.

          It truly is what authors or copywriting teachers you connect with when you try to study them.


          Case in point, a lot of people talk about Breakthrough Advertising being a brilliant copywriting book.

          Personally, I've been struggling to read it for over a year because I can not connect with Schwartz's teaching style.

          For me, I'm lucky if I make it through a few pages before my brain starts shutting off or I start getting sleepy. So Eugene Schwartz might be considered a copywriting legend, but so far his teaching style hasn't help me a bit.

          For me, all it takes is one great concept or technique discovered in a copywriting book or course for it to be worth every penny I paid. For some of the biggest named copywriting teaching gurus out there, they really bring their "A" game for their high-ticket products. If you're selling a $1K or more info-product, then you better bring your "A" game or else you'll get killed by the refunds.

          Case in point: John Carlton's SWS program has the best breakdown and explanation of finding a product's Unique Selling Proposition (USP) out of any marketing or copywriting course I've ever seen, including some of his other courses/programs.

          I've been doing my own marketing and copywriting since 1993 and I couldn't even have explained USP as well as Carlton did.

          Okay, reality check time on this thread.

          Johnny, not everyone wants to read 10, 20, 30 books on a subject. Not everyone wants to take the time to research and develop their own swipe file to use for brainstorming ideas. Not everyone is price sensitive about what they pay for training materials as me (I always check Ebay before buying stuff directly).

          Not everyone wants to invest the time like you have done to become a solid copywriter by studying dozens of copywriting books... or go to the level I have of studying everything copywriting-related that I can get my hands on.

          It's a matter of their personal choice.

          So if Tim wants to start a thread about what are the recommended courses, that's his personal choice.

          Rather than arguing about what route is better and derailing this thread which will frustrate the people just wanting to get some course reviews... why not start a new thread where everyone can have some fun with that topic debate?

          Anyways, that's my opinion... I could be wrong.

          Take care,

          Mike
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1484085].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            Johnny, not everyone wants to read 10, 20, 30 books on a subject. Not everyone wants to take the time to research and develop their own swipe file to use for brainstorming ideas. Not everyone is price sensitive about what they pay for training materials as me (I always check Ebay before buying stuff directly).

            Not everyone wants to invest the time like you have done to become a solid copywriter by studying dozens of copywriting books... or go to the level I have of studying everything copywriting-related that I can get my hands on.

            It's a matter of their personal choice.

            Mike,

            I agree with you, entirely. Thanks for your very rational (as always) reply.

            I certainly have no objection to people buying whatever they want. That's fine.

            I simply made an observation -- based on my own personal experience -- which was partially meant in jest. Next, I contributed a link which was, apparently, not good enough. And then they formed their little lynch mob.

            In the future, I'll try to remember not to post on Tim's threads. Problem solved.

            -Johnny
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1484253].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
        Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

        In my opinion it [Schwab's] is the best book on writing copy there is.
        It appears that we actually agree on something. Maybe all that 2012 stuff is real, after all.


        That said, please don't act like your ebay purchase defines
        courses. Maybe it is a bad one, maybe it's you- who knows.
        Umm... there's no "acting" involved. The course I bought was a VERY popular and expensive course from a big-time guru. But, as I said, I think Schwab's $14 book is FAR more valuable.

        Johnny
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475781].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
          Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

          Being that the course was "popular" maybe it's just you
          "Popular" equals "good"? So that means if you like music you must be a Brittany Spears fan.

          Johnny
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1476356].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
            Yawn.

            Wow you can't just do something simple like name courses you've enjoyed and learned from without the whole debate of books vs. courses. Look at the book thread. Tons of great and useful info without the whole debate.

            Thanks to those who have submitted useful information to this thread. If you want to do something else besides that feel free to start another thread.

            Tim
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1477525].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
              Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

              ... can't just do something simple like name courses you've enjoyed...

              Tim,

              Sure, here's a bunch of them. Just go to...

              Free Business Audio Seminars | Internet Marketing Secrets And Business Marketing Strategy | Michael Senoff Interviews The Masters Of Selling, Advertising And Internet Marketing

              You'll find over 157 hours of great, FREE interviews and courses.

              Johnny
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1478909].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
                Johnny -

                So all those interviews are for copywriting? And all of them tell you how to do it, not just a sales pitch?

                If you can't follow the question answered let me know and I'll try and simplify it for you ... if that is possible.

                Seriously disappointed that this has turned into what it has.

                Tim

                PS: Going to check out Carlton's program.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1479023].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
                  Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

                  Johnny -

                  So all those interviews are for copywriting? And all of them tell you how to do it, not just a sales pitch?

                  If you can't follow the question answered let me know and I'll try and simplify it for you ... if that is possible.

                  Seriously disappointed that this has turned into what it has.

                  Tim

                  PS: Going to check out Carlton's program.
                  Tim,

                  I followed the question -- but, apparently, you were too lazy to follow the link.

                  No... the site doesn't contain 100% "copywriting" info. And Senoff does include a brief sales pitch. However, there's a TON of outstanding, FREE, downloadable info there -- including classic stuff from Melvin Powers, Gary Halbert, H.G. Lewis, and many, many others.

                  It's a veritable gold mine!

                  I find it amazing that you would ask for recommendations, and then complain about getting them. Now I wish I hadn't even told you about it. Sheesh...

                  Johnny
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1479352].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
                    Johnny -

                    You didn't uncover the holy grail. I have known about Mikes place for a long time and listened to most of his interviews.

                    Now look at my question to you - I'll highlight the important thing I wanted you to see:

                    So ALL those interviews are for copywriting?

                    First - there are some interviews on copywriting, but not all of them. I would of at least recommended a few with direct links.

                    Second - this thread was asking for copywriting PROGRAMS and HOME STUDY COURSES, which the link you provided with the interviews aren't.

                    So who didn't follow the directions again?

                    At any rate hopefully some people will be able to find a program through the thread.

                    Tim
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1480870].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
                    Paul -

                    Thanks man. I will do. Hope all is well.

                    Tim
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1481422].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Jag82
                  Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post


                  Seriously disappointed that this has turned into what it has.
                  Dude, chill out a little bit.

                  You started a thread. And Johnny contributed.

                  Maybe not exactly right down to tee as you wanted. But at least that link he gave still offers some value.

                  Give him some credit. At least he made the effort.

                  Jag
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1481826].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
            Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

            Do you want to buy the product nobody wants?
            Frequently... yes. Because "popular" doesn't equal "good." Often the best books/products are rather obscure.

            Johnny

            P.S., And how can anyone not like The Beatles?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1478890].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
        Carlton's Simple Writing System was practical.

        Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

        Paul,

        How many expensive copywriting courses have I tried?

        Exactly ONE. I bought it used, on eBay. It was a very popular "course" by a well-known "guru." That's how I came to realize that a lot of those "courses" are probably like "the emperor's new clothes" -- there really isn't much there.
        That's interesting, by your logic then all golfers and presidents are probably adulterers.

        I learned FAR, FAR more from Vic Schwab's $14 book than I did from that "course." Besides, where do you think the "gurus" learned about copywriting? I'll tell you -- from the classic books by Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, and Ogilvy.

        In the decades that I've been studying copywriting, the only really "new" info I've come across is in Cialdini's book, Persuasion... it's about $15.

        Johnny
        No doubt Johnny there is a lot of value to be had with the classics.

        That doesn't necessarily mean more expensive courses have no value. Guys like Carlton, Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert and other top writers who have sold millions of dollars of product on their own account and for clients have clearly demonstrated they know a thing or two. In my thinking investing a little time and money to access their ideas and process is worthwhile... but to each his own.

        @Thomas - are you the same Thomas in Carlton's Sweatshop course?
        Signature
        Scary good...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1484165].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author maximus242
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Tim,

      So, in other words, you're looking for a way to pay $300 to $2,000 for what you could learn in a book for $15?

      It's funny how the price multiplies by a factor of ten (or more) when the word "course" is used in place of the word "book."

      Johnny
      I take it you havent owned some of the courses they are talking about because if you did you would know there are things covered in certain courses such as those by Makepeace which are not covered in any of the classics.

      Many modern courses presume you have already read most of the classics and know a lot about copywriting.

      Tim, why dont you edit your post at the top and just make a list of the top courses.
      Signature

      xResponsive Advertising Agency | Direct Marketing | Online Advertising | Create Breakthrough Campaigns for Your Business http://xresponsive.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1480906].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ghyphena
    Super Power Copy by Paul Hancox is a video course that, as well as teaching copywriting component by component, also features Paul constructing three sales letters "live" with narration.

    As well as Clayton Makepeace's Ultimate Desktop Copy Coach (his Quick-Start course mentioned in Alex's .doc seems to be the same material but packaged in monthly installments), there is also Clayton's $7,500 seminar. I don't own it (nor do I own UDCC), but I thought it's worth mentioning.
    Signature

    Gil-Ad Schwartz

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1474214].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      To date, I've studied and implemented things I've learned from over 40 different copywriting and marketing books/CDs/courses.

      In terms of copywriting, I've studied some really great books. John Caples' Tested Advertising Methods is hands-down my favorite copywriting book to date. You can use copywriting books to build a real good foundation... probably to the point of becoming a $2-3K level copywriter.

      Having said that, there's two copywriting courses that are in a league of their own and take you more in depth on a variety of copywriting and marketing components than any of the classic copywriting books IMHO.

      It's not the copywriting books' fault really. It's just that no book publisher is going to want to sell a 1000+ page book for $15-20. No top copywriter who can write something so extensive is going to want to settle a 5-15% royalty (typical book author's royalty) on their copywriting book or course either.

      I really liked John Carlton's Simple Writing System for it's in-depth step-by-step system for writing copy. It's helped me streamline my methods so I'm more efficient and I've picked some additional copywriting tactics that have been a big help.

      As Matt mentioned Clayton's course, now called Quick Start Guide after being redesigned and updated. It is massive (1200+ pages) and is also quite good.

      The level of detail is amazing and there isn't a copywriting-related resource that isn't included. I can give a more complete grade once I finish this course but so far it's been quite good and I'd recommend it over Clayton's $7500 Power Summit course.

      If you have the funds to do so, I still would recommend going the copy cub/copywriting mentoring route simply because it's the fastest way with the least amount of trial and error to get to becoming a real good copywriter. By my estimate, it's about 3-4x faster than self-study (the route I went).

      I don't want to derail this thread by talking about mentoring further. IF you're interested, there's some other threads in this copywriting forum where the recommended top copywriting mentors are mentioned.

      Take care,

      Mike
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1474302].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
    I have pulled something useful from nearly all of the courses I have purchased. A few of my favorites are...

    Ten Nicholas - Million Dollar Copywriting Bootcamp. Ted is a great teacher he doesn't come off angry or apathetic like Carlton or Kennedy sometimes do.

    He notices and appreciates the little everyday things that can really bring copy to life.

    Ken McCarthy - Advanced Copywriting Course. Though I have heard many of the same things in other seminars, Ken has a clear direct style of speaking that seems to emphasize important points better than some of the others.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is another copywriting course (I have heard is good) you can attend at the Portfolio Center in Atlanta. I believe it is a one year full time course.

    One I didn't like much was AWAI's Six Figure Copy course.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A course of action is probably the best home study course.
    Signature

    I write copy. Learn More.>>

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475663].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ed123
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475834].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by ed123 View Post

      Don't you just have to be a good writer to write good copy?
      Ewwwww.

      No, you do not. But you MUST be a good (perhaps great) salesman to write good copy.

      John Kennedy (no, not the President) said it best:

      "Advertising is salesmanship in print."

      - Rick Duris
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1475908].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    (Waving a white flag...)

    Tim,

    Since you and your minions have decided to gang up on me -- I give up. You win.

    In fact... I should thank you. You've helped me see the error of my ways. You're absolutely right -- I've learned that to pick up all that slick, "super-secret" copywriting stuff you MUST buy expensive courses -- and lots of them.

    Heck, it makes me wonder how anybody was ever able to write a sales letter by reading only the works of the great masters like Schwab, Caples, and Hopkins.

    How did copywriters manage to write anything but incoherent babble before the "gurus" came along to sell us slender plastic boxes filled with beautiful, shiny discs?

    Shame on me for suggesting otherwise... or trying to save you money. By all means, DO NOT go to Senoff's site to listen to great, FREE, copywriting info. Pay big dollars, instead. Help the economy.

    Go buy one of John Carlton's courses for $2,000.00 (he probably needs the money to buy another guitar or something) and keep chasing those "bright shiny objects."

    -Johnny

    (Still waving a white flag... but my arms are starting to get kinda tired.)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1481542].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author maximus242
      *Eyes Roll*

      Oh no your right, every expensive course has nothing of value and the information contained in the $15 books is the same as what is contained in the courses. You have uncovered the secret copywriting conspiracy and really are here to save us all from paying thousands of dollars to gurus for nothing in return.

      In fact we are all stupid enough to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the exact same information we already read in the books and in fact we are so dumb that we didnt even use the 30, 60 or 640 day guarantee that allowed us to get all of our money back.

      No in fact we just enjoy throwing money out the window and getting the same information we already read and we are dumb enough to be happy to pay for this. Your right, all the top copywriters in the world are just a bunch of idiots and guys like Halbert and Carlton are pushing overpriced crap which has nothing new or original.

      And in fact everything we know about copywriting is already written and everything there is to know is in the classics and there is no value whatsoever in purchasing the courses. Obviously we are all just a bunch of idiotic sheep who are here to be saved by you the messiah who tells us to read books we have already read and that the courses we bought (which you have not) do not have anything of value which you know from your mysterious psychic powers.

      Obviously the top copywriters in the world are just a bunch of imbiciles who enjoy paying out thousands of dollars for nothing. They dont learn anything new or anything that gives them an edge over the other million copywriters who only read the classics.

      Thats right, the courses are overpriced shiny objects and do not teach you things no one else teaches. They do not give you a massive edge over people who dont have the information. Stick with the books only, study 50 year old tired controls that no longer work (if they did work they would still be running) and believe you will become a good copywriter by studying ads that have been beaten into the ground by new copywriting techniques.
      Signature

      xResponsive Advertising Agency | Direct Marketing | Online Advertising | Create Breakthrough Campaigns for Your Business http://xresponsive.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1481679].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    Yeah I agree, I dont think theres anything wrong with somebody contributing something. I dont agree with some of his views on copywriting info but I dont see any reason to get mad at someone for contributing a valuable link.

    Besides, this is a public forum, people can say whatever they d*mn well please as long as its within the rules of the Warrior Forum. Nobody owns a thread. Nor do we have to do what people tell us just because they start a thread. Its called freedom of speech.
    Signature

    xResponsive Advertising Agency | Direct Marketing | Online Advertising | Create Breakthrough Campaigns for Your Business http://xresponsive.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1482225].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
    Doctor my back hurts.

    "Ok Mr Castleman go ahead and drop your pants and cough."

    But I am here about my sore back.

    "Oh I heard you, I just want to do what I want first."

    Look guys this is an open thread. If you guys want to post things that don't add value and are off topic I can't and won't do anything.

    I've got a good list. Thanks for those who contributed and followed directions.

    Tim
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1483569].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Geez... I didn't think I would set off a firestorm by merely suggesting that some of those uber-expensive copywriting (and IM) courses are over-priced.

    The truth is that I'm a recovering internet marketing junkie, too. The very first info product I bought was an expensive IM (not copywriting) course that I bought used on eBay (for one-tenth the original price). The course was made up of screen capture videos and came on five CD-ROMs.

    The thing is, when I checked the amount of data held on each disc, I found that the data on ALL of those discs would have fit on ONE disc... TWICE. They fooled me.

    So maybe I'm a bit jadded or biased because of that experience. But, these days, I try to chase fewer and less expensive "bright shiny objects."

    If you watch almost any football game, how does the losing coach commonly explain the loss? By saying that the team needs to get "back to the fundamentals." I've been studying copywriting for a couple decades. And during that time, I've come to the conclusion that studying the fundamentals (in books) will get you 99 percent of the way home.

    Why do I think that? Because, over the years, I've come across very little that's really "new" with regards to writing copy. People and their needs, wants, and desires have not changed.

    If you disagree with me, that's fine -- but please give me an example or three. Maybe I missed something.

    -Johnny
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1483914].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Tim,

    If you want to find the specific page that lists ALL the copywriting seminars on Senoff's site, just click the link below.

    That single page is filled with great, free, downloadable info -- AND it's ALL about copywriting (as you requested).

    Carlton, Bly, Powers, Halbert... they're all there. It's great stuff.

    http://www.hardtofindseminars.com/Copywriting.html

    -Johnny
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1483950].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Hi Johnny12345,

      As respectfully as I can say this--I believe you are misguided.

      Allow me to give you an example, unrelated to copywriting (or three. )

      The bicycle was invested in 1816, almost 200 years ago. The first Tour de France was held in 1903.

      In the last 15 years, Lance Armstrong and his coaches turned the Tour de France from a matter of raw endurance and athleticism into A SCIENCE. They raised the bar. They re-defined the sport.

      For instance, even with the best athlete, the best bicyclist on the face of the planet, go ahead and pull out the BEST bicycle from 20 years ago.

      I don't care who they are and what their capabilities are, they will lose.

      I could also say the same for Lance's work out regimen.

      Or Lance's nutritional habits.

      Lance's strategy, mindset, etc.

      There is a seismic shift occurring in copywriting, especially online.

      The controls are not just tired. The foundations as we know them are constantly being challenged.

      Saying you rely on a few dusty, old books in the public domain, will get you 99% of the way there today is just not accurate.

      If you want to overcome the skepticism today, establish trust and believability, create compelling reasons to buy, there are news ways, methods and strategies.

      I am sure you see them unfolding. But maybe they just haven't registered yet until someone breaks down the strategy and principle and points them out explicitly.

      Stated differently, the Internet is changing everything. And it will not stop.

      For instance, let's take Sun Tsu's book "The Art of War."

      It's timeless. It's brilliant. It's been an enduring inspiration for many a general as well as businessman.

      But in today's technological battlefield filled with smart missiles, drones and ultra-advanced devices like HAARP, it will not give you the edge you need to win the war.

      I could go on with example after example besides sports and the military. Physics. Biology. Ecology. Psychology. Even soft skills like parenting and relationships and art.

      There are people in the profession of copywriting doing groundbreaking work. Some of them frequent this forum. Some of them are generous to share their experience and findings.

      Johnny12345, I would urge you to rethink your claim. I'm not trying to "pick a fight" with you. I am sincerely trying to help you in your thinking. But I believe your premise is costing you big time.

      - Rick Duris

      PS: If you're reading this, you may wonder why I have spent so much time articulating this message.

      It's because Johnny12345 is not alone in his thinking. I've heard many aspiring copywriters say the same thing.

      We all need, including myself, new thinking. We need to, as legendary pilot Chuck Yeager said, "push the envelope."

      PPS: The dirty little secret in this business is that the ultra-successful online marketers (no, not goo-roos) know exactly what I'm talking about. And they pray to God on daily basis that people like Johnny12345 never catch on or worse--start conducting a seminar on what REALLY works today.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1484221].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
        Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

        For instance, let's take Sun Tsu's book "The Art of War."

        It's timeless. It's brilliant. It's been an enduring inspiration for many a general as well as businessman.

        But in today's technological battlefield filled with smart missiles, drones and ultra-advanced devices like HAARP, it will not give you the edge you need to win the war.

        Hi Rick,

        I think "The Art of War" is an excellent example. It may appear to be out-dated, but I think the underlying concepts remain the same. Why? Because, for the most part, people are still the same.

        Copywriting isn't rocket science. The longer I study it, the more I realize how simple it can be. It's not about learning "new" tricks or gimmicks.

        However, in the area of conversion tactics, yes, many things are new. But the the emotional appeals that cause people to pull out their wallets haven't changed to any appreciable degree. We're still just simple creatures, with highly predictable needs, wants, and desires.

        So we appear to both agree and disagree to some extent.

        -Johnny
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1484341].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    Anyway, I'm surprised no one mentioned
    Dan Kennedy's Influential Writing Workshop
    . Killer stuff.

    John Carlton's License To Steal is top-notch as well.

    Jag
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1486892].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author degcommunications
    I've always enjoyed John Carlton's stuff as well.
    Signature

    If your content with low quality crap that does nothing but make you and your products look bad, then ignore this. If your looking for exclusive, high quality content that establishes a long term relationship with your visitors, then go here to get started http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...s-say-all.html

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1502635].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    Yea, Paul.

    John Carlton's style of writing has a very magnetic
    quality to it. It just sucks you in.

    His writings are so descriptive...so vivid...so colorful...
    I feel as it they have invaded all my senses

    Very good stuff from a great copywriter.

    Needless to say, his stuff now rest nicely
    in my swipefiles.

    Jag
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1504567].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Sanchez
    ...I would like to throw my two bits in -

    Did it ever occur to anyone that books and courses aren't enemies?

    You can benefit equally from both!


    So...

    I'm with the "I'm in love and obsessed with copy!" camp so here goes:


    Best Starter courses -

    Jason Fladlien Stop Watch Copy

    Paul Hancox's Mentoring Course (it's a course slash mentorship...lovely stuff!)

    More Advanced

    Makepeace Quick Start ( I only have his first edition; waiting till his site's back in business and I can get the updated version)

    To say this course is sophisticated is an understatement.

    Scott Haines - he's making a 2nd edition so hopefully he gets cracking on that soon...all I can say is Ebay man, ebay.


    And I'm shocked that no one's mentioned him:

    Ben Settle - Evil Kenevil on the copywriting world...I think he's the next Gary Halbert of our time.


    These are the cream of the crop.

    Carlton's courses...um...not my thing. he's a Killer Mass Murderer of weak copy - The Titan Of Bullets...but for some freaking reason, I don't pick up on his teaching style...

    But his was one of the first courses I picked up so maybe it was over my head at the time. I agree with Mike though:

    Best USP explanation ever!

    Period.

    PS - Ebay is your best friend for finding courses

    PPS - Mike and Rick...when am I going to see your names on my list of "Best copywriting courses ever!"
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3599236].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author methomas
    Two things that may be considered.

    Different people learn in different ways. Some learn by a mixture of ways.

    I learn better by reading, maybe because I have read over 6,000 books in my life time or maybe that is my natrual way of learning.

    I haven't bought any of these two thousand to twenty-five thousand dollar courses, but a friend has just about every one of them and I have listened to and studied the ones he has. If I don't take a lot of notes, I forget and have to do a lot of refreshing.

    Being over-priced may not be a good complaint. One gem could be worth the price of any course. BUT, being full of filler to make a few hours turn into three days is my complaint. There is a waste of time to get to the real meat.

    At least with a book you can read with a marker and go back later and just read the marked portions.

    For the last 18 months I have studied and practiced copywriting about as much as anyone, several hours a day, every day, probably over 2,000 hours. ( I am retired with a passive income, so I have the time.) I think that 90% of what I have learned came from books or ebooks. But that is my natural way of learning.

    I have also taken Pual Hancox's copywriting course. Very good without the filler.

    M E

    P.S. Most of my reading is ebooks by many who post on this forum and the new book, "Writing Riches" by Ray Edwards.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3632373].message }}

Trending Topics