One-Night-Stand Copywriters, and Moving the "Cheap" Line.

14 years ago

You should charge what you're worth. I don't know anyone anywhere who is dumb enough to pay high fees for someone without a track record. And if someone has a track record you can bet your ass they want to maintain it. Therefore they'll aim higher with the work they deliver. That's why they're worth it.

IMO this isn't even an issue. If you don't have a rep... charge very little and bust your ass. That's how you get a rep. And that's how you raise your prices.

Prices don't go up over time... they go up over results.

Any copywriter who says "You know I've been doing this for 2 years now... therefore I need a raise..." probably doesn't deserve it.

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BrianMcLeod 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Prices don't go up over time... they go up over results.

Genius...

Swiped.

Best,

Brian
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- Ronak Shah 14 years ago
  
  2. Charge as little as you can for the first job, then over time increase your rates.
  
  I think you must prove what you're worth. Once you prove what you're worth people will pay the price you deserve after proving what you really can do for them.
  
  It's called market positioning. Most copywriters don't know to do just that, which is exactly why they screw up.
  
  First, don't take many clients. Take one or two. Deliver excellent results. Doesn't matter what you charge, what matters is "proven results".
  
  Over-deliver over and above what you've promised and you'll be where you want to be. Just do it.
  
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  Now, Here's The REAL DEAL:
  Either I make YOU at least 10 times of what I charge YOU OR
  I'll Write YOUR Sales Copy AGAIN Till YOU Make MUCH MORE Than THAT. Guaranteed*.
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travlinguy

14 years ago

What makes you think it's one or the other? You say:

2. Charge as little as you can for the first job, then over time increase your rates.

Why not change that to charge as much as you can and then increase your rates...

I guess it comes down to the scenario that when a writer starts out he feels he has to sell his skills for chump change just to get a reputation. But that's not necessarily so.

If you have talent why not start out by writing for your own project? That's right, create a marketable product and then write a successful sales letter to sell it.

You have nothing on the line but time. To me that beats schlepping around begging for the crumbs someone might throw you just to get a start.

And if you're good, and get a decent conversion rate that you can later prove, you've then got the credentials to enter the market with some clout. And if it doesn't work out the first time, assess what you've done, learn from it and try it again.

To me this is a better use of your time and in the long run will put you in a better position to get paid for what you're worth.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 14 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I'm not convinced.

I seriously suspect that if you can get clients at all, the first will probably bring you in more money than the second. The second is going to be a mistake for aspiring/beginning copywriters just like it's a mistake for aspiring/beginning article-writers, aspiring/beginning autoresponder writers and many others.

The model of starting out by charging as little as you can and then increasing your rates is a fundamentally flawed one. Clients who are attracted to you when you're charging "as little as you can" are extremely unlikely to stay with you when the prices go up, because the fact that you were charging "as little as you can" is usually what attracted them to your services in the first place. When you put your prices up, having gained some more experience, you're likely to lose them and effectively be competing in a different market (perhaps the one in which you should have started in the first place?).

From your own perspective, you also quite possibly get "less useful work" that way, because the reality is that if you're charging "as little as you can", you're pretty likely to attract a range of clients who can't afford to pay for the services of a more experienced copywriter. This leaves you open to the risks that (a) their projects may, overall, be a little less well conceived and planned, and (b) because you can vouch only for your copy and not their traffic, follow-up and so on, even the outcomes may be somewhat disappointing.

As probably the forum's "newest copywriter" (I'm just working on my first Clickbank sales page now), my worry isn't, as you've suggested, "What if I get burned? What if someone uses my cheap services and then runs off to some other copywriter?" (because I'm not offering any cheap services anyway): it's "How do I get the 'better, more successful clients' I want right from the start without having to work for what works out at less than a decent/fair hourly rate?" (In my case the answer was "By being very patient and not compromising").

I do see your point that your first option kind of speaks of a "hit and run" and was perhaps even meant with a derogatory connotation. My contention is that whereas neither, in fact, is an altogether viable business model, it's probably the first one that would be better paid, in the long run, if you could get away with it!

:rolleyes:

Alexa, I really like your view on this.

And I like your new avatar too.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Here's my experience.

When I charged low prices for sales pages, the clients messed with them and screwed everything up. Now I don't get to track results, because they're not the results of my sales pages anymore.

On top of that, the amount of time and energy it took me to make those sales pages meant I couldn't do other work, so I lost money. For nothing. I never got results. I never built a track record. All I ever got was a little short-term cash... the operative word being little.

So while I agree in principle with your general thought process... it doesn't work in this field. Many fields are counterintuitive. Copywriting is one of them.

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marciayudkin

14 years ago

1. Charge as much as you can for one job, then leave and find another client.

2. Charge as little as you can for the first job, then over time increase your rates.

This is a false dichotomy.

You can charge as much as you can for the first time, do a great job and then keep writing for that client over and over again.

It's easy to overlook the savings involved in having long-term clients to whom you no longer need to market or spend money to find.

Some of my clients stick with me for 8-10 years.

Marcia Yudkin

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Greg guitar

14 years ago

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

This is a false dichotomy.

You can charge as much as you can for the first time, do a great job and then keep writing for that client over and over again.

It's easy to overlook the savings involved in having long-term clients to whom you no longer need to market or spend money to find.

Some of my clients stick with me for 8-10 years.

Marcia Yudkin

This is an excellent point. Anybody who's spent any time learning marketing knows that the overwhelming majority of profit is in the backend, and there are innumerable examples of highly profitable businesses that nearly always lose money on the first sale, because they understand the gold mine in the concept of lifetime value.

I doubt I'd even want to hire a copywriter that doesn't understand lifetime value-it's so basic to marketing, that I would wonder what else s/he doesn't understand, and how professional could s/he possibly be to miss something that basic.

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David Merriman

14 years ago

A false dichotomy, generalities, and a sexual reference -- glad you guys took the bait and gave me great responses!

Really...excellent advice all around. I haven't been on the Warrior forum long, but I know that if I talk rates with you guys, it's going to get impassioned.

My actual rates have been fairly boring, since I've been working for a single client for the last two years. But recently I've been trying to think outside the box....

This brings us to a more general point, which is How Much Is Your Copy Worth?

- Is it worth as much as the last person who was happy with your services paid you?

- Is it worth a certain percentage of what was earned?

- Is it worth X dollars, X being a number you insist upon?

We can say it depends on the "conversion rate", but what number are we talking here?

We can talk about differences in conversion rates between two pieces of copy via split testing, but we cannot objectively speak about conversion rates, since some traffic will be of better quality and better targeted.

My personal opinion... well, I don't think it's worth anything. I make all my money with a Forex bot. ;-)

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by David Merriman

This brings us to a more general point, which is How Much Is Your Copy Worth?

Whatever a client will pay.

Hey, complain all you want, it's true.
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Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David Merriman

This brings us to a more general point, which is How Much Is Your Copy Worth?

- Is it worth as much as the last person who was happy with your services paid you?

- Is it worth a certain percentage of what was earned?

- Is it worth X dollars, X being a number you insist upon?

It is worth whatever I decide my time is worth. I decide how much money I want to earn in a given year, how much time I am willing to work for that money and then I have the golden figure.

When I bid a piece I either bid by the job (guessing at the number of hours) or I bid by the hour.

Any man's work is worth whatever he is willing to take for it. I value my work highly.

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Fred_Acker 14 years ago

I'm gonna take this advice and run with it!

IMO this isn't even an issue. If you don't have a rep... charge very little and bust your ass. That's how you get a rep. And that's how you raise your prices.
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John_S

14 years ago

We can talk about differences in conversion rates between two pieces of copy via split testing, but we cannot objectively speak about conversion rates, since some traffic will be of better quality and better targeted.

Just the change of a headline will produce a different response curve. Some will spike early, and die off quick. Others don't go nearly as high, but pull, and pull and pull over time -- beating the others which looked to be more successful initially.

I can't see any tell-tale indicator at the early part of the curve which indicates a winner. A winner only becomes apparent with time. How many split-runs are given the proper amount of time to run?

As for the silly question, it's the same with letter offers. Online. Offline.

Few have the marketing savvy to understand the segments who buy. At least two kinds buy, consumers and customers. A lot of people thinking their lowball offers get them customers find the consumers don't value them, and won't later convert to the upsell.

Your copy and offer determines whether you appeal primarily to consumers or customers. It's not the first, hardest sale at lowest profit any decent copywriter is after, it's the stream of sales after.

Even aside from price, most offers don't fit into a marketing plan of upselling and cross selling. Neither are products produced to prepare the customer for the next sale.

No wonder forced stealth continuity is so popular.

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Scott Murdaugh

14 years ago

A lot of great insights and advice in this thread, I like it.

IMO this isn't even an issue. If you don't have a rep... charge very little and bust your ass. That's how you get a rep. And that's how you raise your prices.

Amen. I built up a rep starting with $500 sales letters... And then $1,500 sales letters, and then, well, what I charge now.

And I agree with Alexa's post (and avatar

), you may as well start off in the market that you want to be in.

When I started out it was a confidence thing. I was writing for new niches. I wasn't as good as I am now, although I did produce results for clients that actually used the copy.

I figured the only way to get immediate work and experience was to offer low prices, I even had a 100% satisfaction money back guarantee (which I don't do now for copy).

It worked for me, but I didn't stay in the budget copy bracket for long. And I got lucky, because a lot of those clients didn't blink an eye when they approached me for the next project and I quoted them 3-6 times or more for their next project.

So for most writers, I'd agree with Alexa, don't write for cheap. It will usually hurt you.

This brings us to a more general point, which is How Much Is Your Copy Worth?

This is a huge qualifier for me with clients. My copy has to be worth what I want to charge. More importantly, to get repeat business, my copy has to be worth much more than I charge to my client...

So they have to have a great offer, and a budget or experience with driving traffic so I can be fairly confident that they'll promote my copy and make much more than the fee I was charging...

I'm moving into more JV types of deals with past clients now, so I can get a cut of the action on everything we do.

Great thread, love it.

-Scott

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marciayudkin

14 years ago

I figured the only way to get immediate work and experience was to offer low prices, I even had a 100% satisfaction money back guarantee (which I don't do now for copy).

It worked for me, but I didn't stay in the budget copy bracket for long. And I got lucky, because a lot of those clients didn't blink an eye when they approached me for the next project and I quoted them 3-6 times or more for their next project.

I actually started my copywriting career prior to the Internet, working for clients in the "opportunity seeking" market. I wanted to write a marketing column, and at first the only magazine that would take it was Spare Time magazine.

They agreed, in exchange for running my column, to also run a small display ad whenever they had the space.

This got me a steady stream of clients, some of whom were surprisingly well-heeled, doing interesting projects and able to pay decent fees. Once I realized that, and felt confident about my track record, I quickly raised my fees.

It was great experience, and brought me some clients who stuck with me for 5-8 years, and in one case I think as long as 12 years.

I also still meet people who remember my articles in that magazine!

I don't see many people pursuing this kind of strategy nowadays, but it can definitely still work.

Marcia Yudkin

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

There is a tiered system. Most of it based on the clients we are
after, but just as much on our skill-set.

We can fake till we break it (screw it up), but then what? I am
amazed how many unproven copywriters bellow out how they
should be making .xx per letter. Or if we charge little, we are
screwing ourselves.

Is anybody else aware how many copywriters are struggling? Most
of us do not know where to get ideal clients (hint: not through WSO)

I personally know of many gasping for air as they are swimming
through rough waters. Most of these people are pretty good too.

I am finally busy and without doing a $197 WSO. I have 9 projects
to get done right now. Some are 'easy' ebook sales letters and
a couple are sorta big launches expected to do $100,000+.

One day I want to join $5,000-$10,000 per letter copywriters,
sadly there will be those now saying "only $5,000 a letter? You should
be charging $10,000" (with no basis on why)

I came on this forum and could not get $1.00 to write a Xmas card,
now I am booked. My WSO's had very little interest, so I figured
out how to create more interest.

In the near future I will have less projects and more money. I can
justify and not regret one thing I have done to get me there.

Bust your balls and do whatever it takes as long as you are
moving up the food chain.

Paul, you should write an ebook on how you got from where you were
to where you are now.

I can think of at least one person who will buy it.

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MikeHumphreys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

Is anybody else aware how many copywriters are struggling? Most
of us do not know where to get ideal clients (hint: not through WSO)

I personally know of many gasping for air as they are swimming
through rough waters. Most of these people are pretty good too.

Based on the number of PMs and emails I get each week, I have a pretty good idea. Obviously, I'm not naming names because we're talking about private conversations here.

It's often a marketing problem, meaning they aren't marketing themselves effectively or consistently.

The other thing I see in this forum waaayyy too often is copywriters ripping prospective clients who have small budgets. Their budget is either all they can afford right now or they don't know what "typical" rates for copywriters might be. Neither reason is justification to publicly shred someone IMHO.

Other people read those rips and decide those copywriters aren't people that they want to do business with. Then those copywriters wonder why they aren't getting new leads.

Same thing with mud wrestling forum trolls. It hasn't ever gotten anyone I know any additional business... so why do it? It only feeds the trolls and lowers you into the mud where you shouldn't want to be.

I am finally busy and without doing a $197 WSO. I have 9 projects
to get done right now. Some are 'easy' ebook sales letters and
a couple are sorta big launches expected to do $100,000+.

Congrats! Keep doing what you've been doing so your marketing funnel stays full.

Take care,

Mike

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angdeer

14 years ago

Ask a reasonable price, do good work and stick with it.

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Raydal

14 years ago

It's hard to think of a time when I charged less than what my work
is worth and the client showed appreciation in more work or I felt
good about 'giving away' my talents for nothing.

I charge what the job is worth and let the chips fall where they
may. You can't afford my fees, then you keep your money and
I'll keep my time and skills.

We are BOTH happier that way. And I'm all for the happiness
of my clients and myself.

-Ray Edwards

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Kevin Lam

14 years ago

To some copywriters here, $800 for a re-write isn't a whole lot. However, for my first gig... it was a hefty chunk of change... especially if it only took a day to do. My prices went up from there, not just from experience, but also results. So I like what Montello said. Too bad I won't be doing too much copywriting starting next year, hehe.

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HayleyWriter

14 years ago

This is definitely an interesting discussion - thanks to all for sharing. When you get started in the copywriting business, it is extremely hard to know what to charge. You do need to write the "copy" several times to get it exactly right, leading the reader to the Buy Now buttons throughout the piece. It is a craft that should be rewarded with proper renumeration. Build up a reputation as a good copywriter and people will pay decent rates for your work. It is always a good idea to build a relationship with every client, as you don't know how many more websites the client will want copy for in the future, regardless of what you charge the client. I started at low rates with a client when I first started writing and as her business became successful, she stuck with me and voluntarily raised the rates herself. Now, we have a terrific working relationship and I get paid what my work is worth with regular work coming in.

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Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

14 years ago

CONTROVERSIAL IDEA...

When I am creating copy for a client I am often asked how much they should charge for their product. My answer is the same as many other copywriters here: That depends on the copy.

If the copy demands a price point in the target market, that's what should be charged.

Why should it be any different when a beginning copywriter asks what he should charge?

If, as a beginning copywriter, you can create a convincing sales process that pulls $5,000.00 out as your first gig, then that's what you should charge.

Curious to know what others here think...

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Greg guitar

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

CONTROVERSIAL IDEA...

When I am creating copy for a client I am often asked how much they should charge for their product. My answer is the same as many other copywriters here: That depends on the copy.

If the copy demands a price point in the target market, that's what should be charged.

Why should it be any different when a beginning copywriter asks what he should charge?

If, as a beginning copywriter, you can create a convincing sales process that pulls $5,000.00 out as your first gig, then that's what you should charge.

Curious to know what others here think...

Well, I can see your point-if the copy doesn't sell the value at whatever price point you've set-you won't get many responses if any. However, there's a big hole in your logic here; especially in your advice to the customer-not so much in the advice to the copywriter, since his/her copy is the product they're selling. It assumes there is only one variable in the equation.

What about the offer itself? Sure, great copy can make the most of an average offer, but if the same copywriter does his best to write a salesletter for Tony Robbin's "The 10 Keys to Achieving Wealth and Fortune", that comes with an hour coaching session from Tony himself, and another for Tiger Woods' new video on "How to Have the Perfect Marraige", which one do you think will perform better.

You have to have a great offer-and that means a killer product or service to start with. Therefore, if I was going to budget $5-10K for someone to write my salesletter, and the only thing they had produced was killer copy to advertise themselves, there's no way I'd hire them-the copy might sizzle, but it's a questionable offer with no track record. I'd absolutely want to see examples of their work, and know what the sales figure were.

By the same token, if I were to offer my copywriting services, and someone came to me wanting to give me $5K to write a great salesletter for their $997 turd sandwich, I'd tell them to come back when they had something that I could get excited about-an offer that has actual value. If they were asking me how much to charge, I wouldn't say it depends on the copy-I'd say you better pay people to flush your product down the toilet.

When all is said and done, if your product/service doesn't provide more value to the customer than the price you're charging, you don't deserve to be in business, and value doesn't come from the salesletter-it comes from the way your customers' lives are enhanced by doing business with you.

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Ross Bowring 14 years ago

Work your tush off. Get results. Raise your fees commensurate with those results.

Where you start fee wise isn't all that important. I know five-figure copywriters who's first letters were for three-figures or low-four. (Mine was 750.)

But they were quick to take action on the three-step scenario above.

Where you start fee wise, is your choice. You set your initial value. I agree with Kevin's comments above. Yet at the same time, it would be unwise to price yourself out of jobs when you need to amass the results that get you to those higher fees.
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RickDuris

14 years ago

To all,

WOW, the variety and value of these ideas presented is absolutely amazing. There are some real gems here.

What I am getting out of this is we as copywriters have our copywriting client "sweet spot."

A target price range where we not only make money, our work is considered valuable, but we also feel appreciated/acknowledged.

For some people, just getting paid for your creative work is a big deal. And rightly so, you should feel very proud.

For others along the continuum, it's a different story--but the result is the same. Pride in your work.

I am just amazed at the variety, as well as the value contributed of this thread.

- Rick Duris

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Loren Woirhaye 14 years ago

Personally, I'm flattered when people appreciate my work enough to
want me to write for them. That being said, I'm not the cheapest
and my style is at times unconventional, some people love it and
others presumably prefer something else - so the style of marketing
I do actually filters out a lot of people who want copywriting
done before I know of their desires.

I will say this - competition here must be very intense - because
most PMs I send to folks advertising they are looking for clients
go unanswered. I expect most of the time this is because prospects
get 20 PMs or something with some writers even offering to do
the work for nothing. It's WarriorForum phenomenon that drives
the going rate for most copy here down pretty cheap.

Previous business experience (before going into writing or online
marketing at all) taught me that low-price shoppers are always
going to be a problem clientele from which to build a business.

Because my watchword is always quality, I've avoided the quantity
thing of writing salesletters for a few hundred bucks. I know there
are a lot of Warriors who've got started running WSOs at prices
that don't reflect the work and self-education that goes into an
effective sales piece.

Since I started out writing copy for my own stuff I knew before
I went into freelancing just how time-consuming it is to do it
well.

My focus on marketing my skills is not too much on the WarriorForum,
actually. Most clients here seem to be aware they can get a
writer at below what I would call market value, so in the forum,
because there are so many copywriters, salesletters tend to
be viewed as commodities by many of the prospective clients.

My marketing efforts for my stuff are mostly focused on offline
businesses who want a strategist and problem solver to help their
businesses grow online.

If you're just trying to market your copy skills on the WF, you're
missing the forest for the trees. There are other marketplaces
out there where commoditization of direct marketing skill is
not nearly so much of an issue as it is here.

"Too many chefs in the kitchen" - as they say. I may be mis-using
the metaphor, however.
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Collette

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David Merriman

Which of these attitudes will earn you more money as a copywriter?

1. Charge as much as you can for one job, then leave and find another client.

2. Charge as little as you can for the first job, then over time increase your rates.

IMHO, the real question is: What do you offer your clients?

Are you a commodity (price driven offer), or

Are you a valuable resource (value-based offer)?

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marciayudkin 14 years ago

Are you a commodity (price driven offer), or

Are you a valuable resource (value-based offer)?

Collette,

Wonderful point.

Offer enough value up front, and as long as they can afford your services, prospective clients do not shop around at all, much less shop by price. That's the virtue of a consultative approach.

Marcia Yudkin
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- Buckwheat.corn 14 years ago
  
  Bravo, bravo Loren,
  
  I couldn't agree more with your last post in this thread.
  
  If you want to get professional copywriting rates, you must market your services to other arenas besides Warrior Forum.
  
  Thanks
  
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Bob pringle

14 years ago

[DELETED]

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

You know...this thread, and many others in this part of the forum have
gotten me to do a lot of thinking.

I've been doing my own salescopy now for almost 7 years, and yet I've
never written copy (except for one sales letter as a favor to a friend) for
anybody because, quite honestly, I didn't know if I could do it.

And then I looked at my own copy and the results it's gotten me in spite
of the fact that my sales pages look like crap and I finally realized that it's
about time I stopped letting my talent go to waste.

But more important than that, I've also realized that the last thing I want to
be is a one night stand copywriter. I am going to charge what I feel my
copy is worth based on my own results. If that means I don't get one
client...so be it.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to write a sales letter for $397.

I know how much work goes into crafting a message that converts.

Too many people undervalue what they do, especially in IM. I see it
everyday, and yes, I am just as guilty as others.

But 7 years of blood, sweat and tears has to count for more than peanuts

This rant isn't so much about me personally (though I am using myself as
an example) as it is about the people here who also suffer from "I'm not
worth-it-itis."

It's probably the worst disease when it comes to valuing your business.

I want to thank the "pros" here who have woken me up to this reality.

Life is too short to piss it away for scraps.
- Thanks
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Kevin Lam

14 years ago

You go for it, Steven. Have an awesome time. It's good timing too... 'cause I'm getting out of the copywriting, lol. I'm gonna concentrate on other aspects of my business. So here's to us and our new career - cheers!

Thanks
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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

You go for it, Steven. Have an awesome time. It's good timing too... 'cause I'm getting out of the copywriting, lol. I'm gonna concentrate on other aspects of my business. So here's to us and our new career - cheers!

It's kind of funny how you're getting out and I'm going in.

I guess it really IS greener on the other side.