How To Get More Copywriting Clients From The Warrior Forum

31 replies
Hey Copywriters,

As one of the longest active and full-time copywriters in Warrior Forum... and as someone who helps mentor newer copywriters grow their businesses, I think I have some insights on what it takes to become a busy copywriter. I think I also have a good handle on things around here.

Honestly, it's just been a negative shift in the last 6-12 months among the copywriters in WF. I don't see the sniping, dog-eat-dog behavior in any other forum I belong to or moderate at.

Prior to 2009, this was a positive friendly forum where people frequently helped each other.

Based on the mentoring I do and private conversations I have with other copywriters, I think I have an idea of what's going on for many copywriters.

Here's my take on things... please take it as such. On some points, I'm going to be brutally honest.

The thing is... I think these are things that need to be said. I miss the way this forum USED to operate and want to see it return there, so I'm going to put myself out there and say what I think needs to be said.

I think that the global economy tightening up has caused a lot of copywriters see their business tighten up in kind. Some may still just as busy as they were in 2006-2008, but chances are they are seeing less leads out there because a lot of businesses (and people) are feeling the pinch this year.

IMHO, I think that's why so many 'quick cash' or 'easy cash' WSOs have been so popular this year... a lot of people have been pinched in 2009 and are looking to raise cash fast anyway they can.

There's not as much credit available for businesses... which makes it harder for them to budget for future projects. I have two good friends with brick and mortar businesses lose $20-50K credit lines this year even though they had never been late with a payment on them. The banks/credit card companies were just tightening up their potential liabilities by making less credit available to everyone. Needless to say, my friends have been faced by a real cashflow crunch as a result.

So businesses are feeling pinched which means service providers like copywriters are getting pinched too. Clients missing payments or being late with payments. Copywriters get hosed out of contract guaranteed royalties and having to go through legal channels to collect.

There's less businesses looking for copywriting help because many business owners cut marketing not expand at the first sign of a recession. It's like they dive into a dark cave and wait until everyone else tells them that the recession is over and they can come out again.

Back to copywriters.

The marketing savvy ones are marketing harder to keep business leads flowing in. They are finding ways to position themselves from their "competition" in areas besides price. Things like extended client consulting, increased attention to quality of work or customer service, value added services, and so on.

I've own a business through 2 previous recessions/downturns and I know some of my peers with similar business experience have been using a lot of the same recession-busting strategies to keep their business sales coming in.

In 2009, I saw more online marketer/copywriters creating their own info-products to produce new revenue streams to replace or supplement their copywriting sales.

Personally, I think every copywriter should be creating their own info-products every year, regardless of what the economy might look like. It truly can become a passive income stream outside of your copywriting business.

The marketing challenged copywriters... well, they are the ones are getting angry and frustrated with their business leads drying up. Alot of them are hurting for business.

That anger and frustration is spilling out in public forums like WF which probably the worst place to do so because potential clients read it and decide to do business elsewhere.

They are bickering and sniping about copywriting pricing when they don't need to be.

Take a sales letter from scratch... say under $500, $500, $1000, $1500, $2000, and so upward in price.

Every one of those points is a completely different target market out of the entire large pie of businesses... a huge pie that needs copywriting help for every single piece.

The prospective client who is looking for a $500 copywriter is doing so because that is what they are willing or able to pay.

Beating a prospective client up in a public forum because they only have a budget of 'x' (fill in the blank) is not good business sense. Yet it's happened more than once this year in this forum. Not in years past.

Maybe their budget is indeed all they can afford. Maybe they don't know how much copywriting can cost and have set what they think is a reasonable budget for it.

In either case, it doesn't mean they deserve to publicly pummeled. And the people who read the threads but don't post... well, take a look at the number of views for some of those threads and you'll see what I mean.

By forum pummeling a prospective client, you're chasing away alot of other potential clients too. Not only will the person never hire you as a copywriter, but they probably won't buy any info-product you ever create either. Chances are, some of the lurkers reading your posts will make the same decision.

If you don't believe me, then shoot me a PM and I'll share a few names of well-known marketers that I've gotten business from simply by being a polite professional in marketing forums like this one.

By forum pummeling each other, it chases ALL prospective clients away too.

If you think I'm nuts, then look at any other sub-forum in WF. You won't find nearly as many squabbles each month there as we regularly see here.

That's why Allen shut this forum down at one point. That's why moderator John Taylor -- one of the longest standing members of the WF -- issued a warning to everyone and even tossed a few people in the ban brig to cool their heels.

There is no reason in the world why copywriters should be engaging in forum pummeling, especially with prospective clients.

The fact of the matter is:


1) There's a ton of business people who need copywriting help.

2) Every major price point is a different target market. The prospective clients I target are different than another copywriter who charges a significantly different price than I do.

There's also a lot of niches out there too, many of which are much bigger than internet marketing and don't have nearly as many copywriters actively prospecting for business there.

3) It's up to you to figure out how to get your business in front of your ideal prospects' eyeballs and ethically sell them why they should hire you for their marketing needs.

Ripping another copywriter over what they charge won't do it. Ripping a potential client over their stated budget won't do it either.

I hope that 2010 sees this forum get back to doing business the way it used to be. But it's going to take everyone working together and not against each other to do it. It's going to take checking your ego at the door sometimes too.

For the marketing savvy... keep doing what you're doing that is working. Help some of the up & comers just like veteran copywriters helped you when you were an up & comer.

For the marketing challenged... put your thinking cap and start figuring out how to market yourself besides cheap price. Competing on low price is not a sound long-term strategy.

If you don't know what the heck I mean, then check out this graphic cartoon (courtesy of WF member Mr. Subtle):

http://www.superbcopywriting.com/Price-Quality-Time.jpg

For everyone... make more of an effort to act professional in this forum. If everyone does this, then we will see more people -- alot more people -- come to this forum for copywriting help, instead of being scared off by a bunch of copywriting ogres. And yes, I plan on following my own advice.

Turn more people into allies instead of enemies.

Author Jeffrey Gitomer says it better than I could:

"All things being not quite so equal, people STILL want to do business with their friends. To climb the ladder of success, you don't need more techniques and strategies, you need more friends."

I have developed a lot of friends and allies in WF. I have developed very few enemies. The friends and allies have helped me grow every aspects of my businesses and continue to do so. I've never done a bit of business with any enemy.

Back to prospective clients.

Look, there's a lot of businesses out there with lousy marketing who need professional help. The best way to improve the global economy is to help other businesses start making more sales... sales that they can use to hire employees... make new products... expand their warehouses and so on.

That's why copywriting is always in demand. We are truly the rainmakers when we put our minds to making it rain money for our clients and ourselves.

Take care,

Mike
#clients #copywriting #forum #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
    Thanks for the excellent essay, Mike.

    Every major price point is a different target market.
    I think this is such a key. Before asking, "how do I promote myself to the niche at this price range?" copywriters should first ask, "What kind of price range do I want to serve as the best use of my current abilities?"

    For some people, that may be a lot of little jobs. For others, it may be the occasional mega-budget mega-project.

    The same person might be in one world or another at different times in a career. Perhaps they can offer more, perhaps they prefer quickly knocking off a small project. Perhaps they added a team so they can scale up, perhaps there's a sick family member so they have to scale down.

    I agree that none of this demands that anyone else get angry!

    Whether on the way up or the way down, it's best to be nice to those who cross your path. Your paths may cross again, and they well be ready to return whatever you offered them last time.

    I personally see copywriting as one of the later steps in a process that involves several parts. Earlier steps to define the market, the offer, the positioning, the unique value. I try to help people with "copy blinders" to take them off and look at the bigger picture of the business. Others have their own unique perspective and I agree that we should all share whatever thoughts we can with kindness, respect, and a sense of fun.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author SusanLandry
    Look, there's a lot of businesses out there with lousy marketing who need professional help. The best way to improve the global economy is to help other businesses start making more sales... sales that they can use to hire employees... make new products... expand their warehouses and so on.
    Mike, you rock. This is a great point.

    I think that if you're a copywriter whose leads are drying up, you definitely need to take a hard look at your marketing approach and step out of the proverbial box (of self-limiting beliefs). There are opportunities everywhere, all the time.

    What's so fantastic about this field is that we have the potential to work with clients all over the globe, in any industry. Yes, the world is our oyster - really!

    In this economy, many businesses are starting to realize that they can no longer wing it - they need to step up to the plate, take marketing more seriously, and engage professionals who can help them go to the next level. There are also loads of people who are plunging into entrepreneurship after being screwed over by the 9 to 5 world - they need us, too.

    Combine this with the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day... and there's really no reason why any reasonably skilled copywriter should be experiencing a lack of business. I personally believe there will always be far more work out there than quality copywriters.

    I'm just sayin'.
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    Susan Landry, Marketing Copywriter
    "Putting the Power of Persuasion Into Words"
    www.susanlandry.com

    Follow me on Twitter! Please.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Mike, your posts are always an awesome read and full of pure marketing WISDOM.

    Your last sentence is PURE GOLD.

    The way I see it, we copywriters should really view ourselves as copywriters plus.

    But I like your word - rainmakers.

    It's about reframing ourselves.

    Businesses don't want "copywriters". They want someone who increases their business, makes them money, or even just keeps them afloat!

    Of course, that's what copywriters do ... ... but most businesses aren't typing "I want a copywriter" into Google. They're typing, "I want someone to help me bring in more business".

    OK, not literally... but I know you understand what I mean.

    They don't necessarily know that's what copywriters do. (In fact, I suspect if you said the word "copywriter" to a small business, they would be thinking "copyright".)

    So it's our jobs to put ourselves in front of businesses and say, "Here's what you need. Here's what's going to increase your business and sales. And by the way, we call it copywriting."

    And pull them out of the cave.

    By the way, that cave metaphor... I'm swiping it for my metaphor file... it's that good.

    Thanks for another great post, Mike.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Folks, I don't know how it came about, whether Mike PM'd me or I PM'd
      him, but whatever...out of the conversation (don't even remember what
      it was about) I asked Mike to write the sales letter for my first physical
      product that I hope to have done sometime this year. Problem is, with
      things being so bad (yeah, it's bad for marketers too) I've had to do more
      smaller projects to keep the money coming in, so the available time for my
      physical product has become scarce to say the least.

      But why did I ask Mike?

      Read his post and you'll see why.

      He is one of the most professional people I know here...not to mention a
      heck of a nice guy. I can't recall him ever being nasty to anybody unless
      they came after him first...and even then, I can't recall him ever losing it.

      I have never even seen one of Mike's sales letters but I know that he's
      the guy I want to do mine.

      Says a lot about the man.

      As far as what he said about how to get through these tough times, dead
      on.

      I've expanded a lot of my services to include coaching and things besides
      just selling ebooks and/or writing sales letters. I'm offering clients a
      complete package to get them on their feet and doing it at a very
      reasonable cost that most newbies can afford. As Mike said, there is a
      market out there for every price point.

      In other words, you don't have to be 15K copywriter to make a nice
      living. If you have some talent and are willing to work with lower price
      points, there is work out there.

      I guess it comes down to leaving your egos at the door.

      I know I lost mine this year when, the last week of January, I had to
      scramble like a madman to salvage a 5 figure month.

      It was real culture shock for me heading towards a 7K month with a
      week to go.

      In plain English, it sucks out there right now, and very few of us can
      afford to get on our high horse like our sh*t doesn't stink (as my mother
      used to say, God rest her soul.) She wasn't afraid to tell it exactly as it
      was. And many a time, she gave me a tongue lashing because I was
      being a plain asshole.

      I miss her. There are days I feel like packing this whole thing in because
      of all the negativity in this business and then I imagine what she'd say to
      me. Something like...

      "You're gonna let a few bad apples make you quit? You're better than that."

      So I keep at it, though there are times when I listen to all the fighting
      and pettiness an I just want to scream. And then I get sucked into it
      and start acting like an ass myself and that just makes me feel worse.

      Yes, this behavior is contagious, which is why I sometimes just need to
      get away from all forums.

      Bottom line is this folks and you can take it for what it's worth to you.

      I know of very few people in this world who want to do business with a
      nasty person.

      I sure don't.

      Mike, thank you for a truly great post.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
        Or ... you could stop working for others and start working for yourself.

        Seriously, stop waiting on others to make you rich - invest the same amount of time you would for someone else on your own business and you get to keep 100% of the profits.

        Oh and how about a group pack to stop selling your soul for free or $97 sales letters? Can you agree as a group to charge what you're worth?

        If I can't post a WSO, a warrior for hire, website for sale, etc without paying $20 - why should people be able to get your advice for free?

        Now I do free video sales letter critiques because I am not selling my services as a copywriter.

        In fact business has never been better.

        Tim

        PS: Check out the post counts of some people here - maybe an hour less here and an hour more working on your business might do you more good.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post


          PS: Check out the post counts of some people here - maybe an hour less here and an hour more working on your business might do you more good.
          Hey Tim, you wouldn't by any chance be referring to me would you?

          I don't really post that much. I have Kevin Riley's hamsters do it for me.

          But don't tell him...he thinks they're going out bar hopping.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
          Steve-

          Actually until you mentioned it I had no idea what your post count was. Get out much? I remember I use to haunt the copywriters board and they had a cool feature that told you how much time you spent on there. It was scary to see how much time I had spent there and not made a single dime.

          Then I switched over to this place and money started coming in.

          Paul -

          My point is this. When you work for others you are dependent on others. Projects get canceled, budgets get cut, deadlines moved up, etc.

          When you work for yourself you work for a butthead - but that butthead is you - and you get to keep the money.

          Plus if you are out of work - why not take on some mentoring students, come up with your own product on copywriting, etc.

          If you want to work for others that's fine - heck I might do it from time to time - but ask the people who are part of the 10% unemployed how working for others is working out for them.

          Off to have a cigar kids. Tip your waitstaff and turn the lights off on the way out.

          Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennie Heckel
    Guys and Gals,

    You all hit the nail on the head.

    Yup! Dead center.

    I am new to the Warrior's forum, only 36 or so posts, since I truly take time to write a decent letter when I post. I stop in once a week to check out the posts because I am too busy doing projects.

    Yes, bid prices are down on elance, but I am working faster than I ever did. More jobs for lower pay but I am booked solid for a month right now.

    What is different is this...I give a complete package for sales letters, graphics, SEO, Keyword Research AND THE COPY.

    So that is not something I had read about in the posts above about how to separate yourself as being elite in the market...

    It is a good thought. Why don't you guys and gals team up with a great graphic designer and learn a little seo and give a complete sale letter package?

    Many people would love it if you were a one stop shop.

    That is why most of my bids on elance are accepted, I have over a 20% success ratio on bids, and I do a complete deal. Sets me apart, and makes my clients happy.

    That is a superior way to "beat the competition" and make others (fellow copywriters and designers) a little extra income too.

    I do graphic design, and programming but still farm out my lower end design work to a couple students attending a graphic design school in Malaysia. They are hot shots over there because they are being paid by an American for graphic design work while they are going to college.

    They go to college on the weekends, because they work all week to make enough money and help their family make the rent and buy FOOD. We don't know what a hard life is here...

    So try to help a new student out, or give that young cub copywriter or designer that job you just don't have time to do. Don't turn that job down --- Turn it over to someone else that could use that couple hundred bucks!

    I have a list of copywriters and designers I use all the time to do the little jobs, sure I don't make much on these rollover jobs, sometimes not a thin dime but I help others get work and learn the craft.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Jennie
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    ******* WSO & JV ZOO COPYWRITER -- VLS & SALES LETTERS PROVEN TO CONVERT ******* Get Higher Profits From Launches That SELL! Proven Copywriter with 17 Years of Copywriting Experience. Contact Me Via Skype: seoexpertconsulting Copywriting Website: http://www.VideoScriptCopywriter.com

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Mike -

      Great comments - and true.

      I'd also add that if you are looking for clients only on the WF you are self limiting. You have to constantly position yourself, promote without appearing to promote, think up things to start threads about to call attention to your abilities...and it leads to competition and bickering.

      I've written for years outside IM - but only last year began writing for others. I made a conscious decision NOT to market my writing on the WF. No WSO's (except an occasional PLR set), no "for hire". In fact, I very seldom write anything in the "IM make money" niche.

      Instead I went to freelance sites, built up excellent feedback by taking on some lower end work - and no longer have to take low end projects. Almost everything I do is repeat business now and long term contracts with several manufacturers. That was the goal when I began.

      I notice here in this section a certain "attitude" about "writers vs copywriters". The top copywriters write only sales copy. I'll do articles, books, reports, sales copy, press releases (thanks Bev). I'm not proud - but I am self supporting. Like Jennie, I've begun to offer additional services and will eventually add some outsourced services.

      There are enough good-paying writing gigs "out there" to fill the calendar of any quality writer. However, if you have an easily bruised ego, are dictatorial and unpleasant to deal with - you will lose out here or anywhere else writers are hired. Only the very top in the field can get by with that behavior - and most of them aren't like that.

      For a couple years I outsourced a lot of writing myself. If a writer was difficult to work with or couldn't deliver on time - he was off the list. I keep that in mind when a buyer frustrates me. I've had only one person I've worked for who was rude and unreasonable - and when he requested more work later the answer was simply "sorry - totally booked".

      kay
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      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I'm going to work on being less condescending
      (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennie Heckel
    Dear Kay,

    So right in your comments.

    I do love the comment you made about working with problem clients when they ask for a 2nd project...the comment about about "Sorry totally booked..." That has such a nice ring to it. Especially when you get a client that you would rather not work for... again...Excellent comments.

    Have a super day writing!

    Jennie
    Signature
    ******* WSO & JV ZOO COPYWRITER -- VLS & SALES LETTERS PROVEN TO CONVERT ******* Get Higher Profits From Launches That SELL! Proven Copywriter with 17 Years of Copywriting Experience. Contact Me Via Skype: seoexpertconsulting Copywriting Website: http://www.VideoScriptCopywriter.com

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Actually it has been a super productive day so far. I've made great progress on a demanding new project and think I still have a few hours of energy left today. I love days when the words flow easily - don't we all?

      I know I'm finished writing for the day when my little finger on my left hand just won't be held up any more and starts sprinkling "q's" throughout the text
      Fortunately that only happens after about 12 hours of writing so it's not a daily occurrence.

      kay
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I'm going to work on being less condescending
      (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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  • Profile picture of the author k0zm0zs0ul
    Great post Mike, and yours as well Kay and Jennie...thanks, you three are among the handful I enjoy reading and listening to... now I would say let's all aspire to be so enjoyable to deal with.

    C
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      ** BUMP **

      Lately, I've noticed a number of copywriters peeing in the copywriting pool here. It's a change from how nice everyone was getting along for most of 2010.

      Last February when I posted this thread, it was a similar negative, pissy environment.

      After I posted this thread, things significantly improved here in terms of professional courtesy. A number of other copywriters and WF members thanked me privately. A lot of copywriters, including me, saw an increase in potential client leads too.

      I'm not looking to take any credit for it. It was a collective effort by the majority of the copywriting forum participants.

      Right now, I'm asking everyone to stop fighting and start working cooperatively again.

      It's not a contest for clients. There's far more client work available than copywriters for hire. There's client work available in Warrior Forum. There's client work available outside of Warrior Forum too.

      The challenge is marketing and presenting yourself professionally so prospective clients WANT to work with you.

      My 3 cents,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author ProfWriter
    Thank you for this thread. I've been writing freelance for about six years, and have done well for myself. I think, like in any business, you have to be innovative, smart and consistent. Meeting deadlines isn't enough-- you have to blow your clients away every time. I started out writing a lot of copy for very little money and ended up doing sub-par work that I was ashamed to share with future clients. Now I charge what I'm worth and do my best every time. This business model has worked in many ways. I am proud of my work, my clients always come back for more and I can charge what I'm worth. I have only just started out on this forum, but have been active on many others over the years. I've found that if you treat others with respect, maintain your professional attitude and are always willing to work hard, you can consistently succeed. Maybe it's boring, but it's true. No free lunch here
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  • Profile picture of the author zigato
    Thank you so much for that insight everyone - especially Mike!

    It's up to us to truly define ourselves. It's all find and well to just roll with the flow of life without goals and stuff, but directing ourselves to where we want to go is even better. While we are doing that, why not spread good karma?

    Last year, I quit my job as the working environment just became truly awful - so much so, that almost everyone left the company. As I didnt have a job to move on to, so I needed to do something to keep the money rolling in. I joined Freelancer.com, oDesk, and other low-end freelancing websites and made ends meet by doing press releases, articles, website content, etc. Some of those people are repeat customers and have agreed to raise the prices so it's all good.

    I would love to go back and do sales copy and email marketing again, so my resolution for 2011 is to combine what I know with trying to learn and master online marketing.

    Life is an adventure - why not make the most of it!
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  • Profile picture of the author methomas
    Thanks Mike,

    You are a true gentleman!!!

    Everyone on the forum should have an equal attitude.

    I would never do business with someone with a mean and negative attitude, no matter how much talent, and many, many people feel the same.

    M E
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  • Profile picture of the author Prosechild
    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

    Hey Copywriters,

    They are bickering and sniping about copywriting pricing when they don't need to be.

    Take a sales letter from scratch... say under $500, $500, $1000, $1500, $2000, and so upward in price.

    Every one of those points is a completely different target market out of the entire large pie of businesses... a huge pie that needs copywriting help for every single piece.

    The prospective client who is looking for a $500 copywriter is doing so because that is what they are willing or able to pay.

    Beating a prospective client up in a public forum because they only have a budget of 'x' (fill in the blank) is not good business sense.
    many excellent points in Mike's original post, including this one...
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  • Profile picture of the author mindmarketing
    Thanks for dropping knowledge Mike.

    I don't think this method of thinking should be exclusive to just copywriting either. I've noticed a heck of a lot of belly aching all over the marketing industry because of the recent economic restructuring of our country.

    In fact, I just had my job cut because it "wasn't in the budget" to have a full time marketing director.

    I really think there is money to be made for anyone with some skills and the ability to market them.

    I think the problem is that for most it's a lot easier to complain than work harder when ever times are tough.
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  • Profile picture of the author DanielleLynnCopy
    I'm glad this thread was bumped back up. When I joined the warrior forum only a few months back, I found myself bombarded with threads of what appeared to be bickering, bitter writers.

    I'm not passing judgement, I simply know that I respond to kindness and positivity, and I figure that would follow for any potential clients.

    Treat others as you want to be treated, act ethically, and conduct yourself and your business with a measure of respect- you'll get far.

    Thank you for voicing what needed to be voiced Mike.

    P.S. And as for information products, I'm finding that's an excellent route for a copywriter to take in slow periods. You get to spread your name, showcase your writing abilities, and make some passive income.
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    Short Version: If you're marketing to the Warior forum types to get jobs, don't be surprised when the responders act true to type.

    If you're frequently surprised, then maybe (just maybe) something is amiss about your perception of what the "Warrior Forum Type" actually is. That is an opportunity to reevaluate your perception.
    ...not pout about realities.

    Keep this in mind the next time you think you're helping someone willing to do (I shall hesitate from using the word write) copy for fifty bucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      Short Version: If you're marketing to the Warior forum types to get jobs, don't be surprised when the responders act true to type.
      So in another words, you believe in self-fulfilling prophecies. If you believe that everyone in WF who could possibly contact you is broke or has bad marketing skills, then that's what YOU will draw to you.

      My personal experience for multiple years is that this forum has a lot of lurkers who rarely post. And many of those lurkers have no problem with paying 4-5 figures for copywriting help... but they don't want to pay it to people who could cast a negative image on their business. They also don't want to pay it to people with a piss-poor attitude.

      Successful people like associating and doing business with other sucessful people. They rarely like doing business with whiney negative folks.

      If you're frequently surprised, then maybe (just maybe) something is amiss about your perception of what the "Warrior Forum Type" actually is. That is an opportunity to reevaluate your perception.
      ...not pout about realities.

      Keep this in mind the next time you think you're helping someone willing to do (I shall hesitate from using the word write) copy for fifty bucks.
      That's where doing your legwork comes in. Read some of their other posts in WF. Check out their sites.

      Are they offering fifty bucks because that's all they have... OR it's all they mistakenly think good copywriting should go for... OR are they a conservative business owner who likes to start with a small project before committing serious money?

      The "all they have" may not be the type of client you work best with but there's nothing wrong with the ones who fall into mistakenly priced or conservative spenders either.
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    Are they offering fifty bucks because that's all they have... OR it's all they mistakenly think good copywriting should go for... OR are they a conservative business owner who likes to start with a small project before committing serious money?
    Now, you and I both know, that will be revealed quickly and decisively by the structure of the business proposition. Conservative people who "trust but verify" with a qualifying challenge are not a problem.

    That discussion has been had. A dozen times over.

    Further, no group is 100%. But can we really say lurkers who rarely if ever post are even warrior forum members? They're registrants. They are of some other type ...who occasionally visit.

    That a fraction of a percent are against type goes more to prove the rule than dispute it. Even forgetting that, what I am talking about is Marketing 101.

    Of every thousand apartment dwellers you go to sell aluminum siding to, some vanishing small percentage will be about to move into a house ...that just so happens to need aluminum siding. But that's not the way to bet.

    It's not just the money either. Have a lot of experience with, say, house related product and service copywriting? Don't expect to get a lot of hits on your WSO for aluminum siding, roofing, and landscape copywriting jobs.

    What is more, don't expect many IMers selling landscape, home remodling, or related reports either.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      Now, you and I both know, that will be revealed quickly and decisively by the structure of the business proposition. Conservative people who "trust but verify" with a qualifying challenge are not a problem.

      That discussion has been had. A dozen times over.
      Agreed. If it's all the same to you, then let's leave that part of the debate behind.

      Further, no group is 100%. But can we really say lurkers who rarely if ever post are even warrior forum members? They're registrants. They are of some other type ...who occasionally visit.
      No group is 100%.

      But the frequency of visits or posts for a lurker doesn't matter. They still read what's thrown up on the forum.

      Maybe they don't want to spend the time writing up a post. Maybe they don't want to pulled into a debate on any point they try and make.

      They might just be here doing some research.

      Point is, they read what people write. And the people who spew forum vomit make a negative impression with everyone, including the people who can and will pay your quoted fees.

      At least that's been my experience to date.

      Take care,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    Point is, they read what people write.
    Long thread. Simple point.

    You sure that's going to keep the next diatribe against two newbies striking up a deal from happening? When you're talking about these untoward threads, isn't a passel due to stuff like that, the "You're demeaning yourself and the glory of the [insert profession]" diatribe with this lowball offer?

    And, sure enough, that diatribe arises out ot the self-same reasoning "that somebody, willing to pay primo bucks, will see it." Hey, if they want to deal, then let 'em deal. Five dollars. Fifty. Fifty thousand.

    Point being a fifty dollar deal between nonclients does not hurt the five thousand dollar deal. In point of fact, the fifty dollar deal -- moved through time, and providing the necessary seasoning -- turns non clients into future clients.

    That's the point. Stop "saving the profession," you're cutting your own throat.

    I know a lot can be done with words. But you have to address a root cause to actually change things (for more than a minute). That's really how influence and persuasion work.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      Long thread. Simple point.
      It's just one of numerous points I made in my OP.

      You sure that's going to keep the next diatribe against two newbies striking up a deal from happening?
      No clue. If I had that type of psychic abilities, then I wouldn't ever get myself in trouble with my wife.

      When you're talking about these untoward threads, isn't a passel due to stuff like that, the "You're demeaning yourself and the glory of the [insert profession]" diatribe with this lowball offer?
      People can choose to compete on price, quality of service, or speed of service.

      Inexperienced copywriters and marketers compete on low price. Experienced ones don't.

      When I first hung my copywriting shingle, I used low price as a temporary strategy to build up my portfolio, gain testimonials, and increase my confidence to make my clients more money. I even spell it out in my marketing at that time.

      As for different price points... see my original post.

      And, sure enough, that diatribe arises out ot the self-same reasoning "that somebody, willing to pay primo bucks, will see it." Hey, if they want to deal, then let 'em deal. Five dollars. Fifty. Fifty thousand.

      Point being a fifty dollar deal between nonclients does not hurt the five thousand dollar deal. In point of fact, the fifty dollar deal -- moved through time, and providing the necessary seasoning -- turns non clients into future clients.
      Not sure why you keep mentioning price. My OP talked about copywriters publicly shredding someone over their current stated budget. It hurts the copywriter's business. It doesn't help the person with low stated budget either... especially if they don't know how time & labor intensive copywriting (or great site design) can be.

      Other potential clients read the same threads to see what copywriters are being recommended and they see that crap. If you think I'm making it up then take a look at the number of views on any copywriting thread. It's always more than the number of posts... sometimes exponentially more.

      The other thing is... those posts live online forever.

      I've had clients refer to posts I made years ago that they found and read as part of doing their own due diligence.

      It can potentially hurt everyone else's business too.

      People who could post useful and helpful articles or resources are discouraged from doing so. Nobody wants to wade into a pool that people keep visibly crapping in if they have a choice.

      That's the point. Stop "saving the profession," you're cutting your own throat.
      Cutting my own throat with whom?

      Look at the number of thank yous my OP has gotten. I've gotten more private thank yous than that.

      As for clients... Warrior Forum is just one source of potential clients for me. I use a well-diversed marketing plan on attracting potential clients into my business.

      I've been full-time as a copywriter for over 4 years and my schedule continues to stay consistently full.

      I know a lot can be done with words. But you have to address a root cause to actually change things (for more than a minute). That's really how influence and persuasion work.
      No doubt. Everyone could benefit from increasing their abundance mentality and improving their mindset. Personally, I gained a lot from studying Jim Rohn and Brian Tracy for those goals.

      I'm not a shrink nor do I want to play one on TV. I merely chose to focus on a problem I saw happening in this forum. A problem that needed to be publicly mentioned or else it wasn't going to get better.

      In other words, I chose to act like a leader and try to leave things better than I found them.

      Take care,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Len Bailey
    Well said, Mike.
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    Len Bailey
    Copywriter/Consultant
    Feel free to connect on LinkedIn or Twitter

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  • Profile picture of the author methomas
    Mike, you along with a couple of others, are the gentlemen of this forum.

    I thank you and hope the negative people wake up and see how their negative posts actually make them 'little' in the eyes of others.

    The negative posters are in reality, running customers away from themselves.

    Keep up your positive image and let others live up to your image.

    M E
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      Mike and methomas are correct.

      I am terrible with a computer so forgive me for not quoting the bits I need.

      I am not a copywriter, not sure how I came on this site, but the posts were interesting.

      I am buying a couple of copywriting books and looking at what people write not because I want to do it myself but because I will hire someone to do it for me and want to know the process when I speak to them to see if they know what is what.

      Because I had a specific question I registered and was pleased with how people responded.

      Guess what? I clicked on all of their profile things, clicked on their contacts and if they had their own websites I had a look at what they do and have done if possible.

      Now one of them happens to write in a way that I like (I won't say who) and should I decide to do something in the US where I don't know anyone I will make direct contact with that person.

      If he had been rude I would not know that he writes in a style that I like as I would not even have clicked on his profile.

      I very much doubt that I am the only person who is doing this so when you write to your intended audience in a response, consider the hidden one as well.

      Hope that helps

      Dan
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      • Profile picture of the author dorothydot
        Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

        Mike and methomas are correct.

        I am terrible with a computer so forgive me for not quoting the bits I need.

        I am not a copywriter, not sure how I came on this site, but the posts were interesting.

        I am buying a couple of copywriting books and looking at what people write not because I want to do it myself but because I will hire someone to do it for me and want to know the process when I speak to them to see if they know what is what.

        Because I had a specific question I registered and was pleased with how people responded.

        Guess what? I clicked on all of their profile things, clicked on their contacts and if they had their own websites I had a look at what they do and have done if possible.

        Now one of them happens to write in a way that I like (I won't say who) and should I decide to do something in the US where I don't know anyone I will make direct contact with that person.

        If he had been rude I would not know that he writes in a style that I like as I would not even have clicked on his profile.

        I very much doubt that I am the only person who is doing this so when you write to your intended audience in a response, consider the hidden one as well.

        Hope that helps

        Dan
        Dear Dan,
        I wish every copywriting client I have or have had would take a page from your book! Becoming an educated client is a gigantic leap in the right direction. Now you know what to ask, what to look for, what you yourself are the most comfortable with when choosing a professional copywriter.

        You understand that it is more of a partnership than a client-contractor relationship. You are the expert in your product and the problem it solves; the copywriter is the expert in the sales message and presentation thereof.

        Kudos to you, Sir.

        Sincerely,
        Dot
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        "Sell the Magic of A Dream"
        www.DP-Copywriting-Service.com

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  • Profile picture of the author wvcopywriter
    Hey Mike. I totally agree with you. Great points you have made. I never understood why people who are suppose to be copywriters get their feathers all in a knot and throw fits. That is not professional at all. I know I wouldn't hire someone like that. Copywriters are suppose to write to appeal to people not compel them away.
    Signature

    Don't have the time to write emails that will get opened, read and your reader to take action then leave me a message. I will get back to you within 48 hrs.

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  • Classic quote:

    "When you work for yourself you work for a butthead - but that butthead is you - and you get to keep the money."
    - Tim Castleman
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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