David Garfinkel on storytelling

77 replies

David Garfinkel (the world's greatest copywriting coach) posted a nice video on story in marketing.

Two quick takeaways:

1) Story shortcuts the getting-to-know-you process. Speeding up the feelings of know, like and trust that need to exist for money to change hands.

2) Tell "Dissolver" stories about a person who had a common objection to your product, but who found it not to be valid when they tried your offering and had a great experience.

Nothing earth-shattering, but useful nevertheless.

David recommends three books...

Unlimited Selling Power: How to Master Hypnotic Selling Skills

Amazon.com: Unlimited Selling Power: How to...Amazon.com: Unlimited Selling Power: How to...

Story: Robert McKee

(Genuinely eye-popping read I can highly recommended)

Amazon.com: Story: Substance, Structure, Style...Amazon.com: Story: Substance, Structure, Style...

The Art of Dramatic Writing

Amazon.com: The Art Of Dramatic Writing: Its...Amazon.com: The Art Of Dramatic Writing: Its...

You can also follow David as I do on http://www.worldcopyblog.com

I don't know David personally. No affiliate connection. He's just someone who knows his stuff.

--- Ross
#david #garfinkel #storytelling
  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Just received the email and watching it now. Good video.
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Hi Ross,

      Nice post. Great info. You and David should be thanked profusely.


      Now let's ratchet it up a notch or two or three.
      And let's see if others can contribute at the same time.

      ----------------------------------


      First, let's talk about a concept called "cliff hangers" or "unresolved conflicts."


      When you write copy and you start to share a story in copy, DON'T COMPLETE IT. Not ever. You leave the story open and unresolved. A "cliff hanger" as they used to say in the days of Superman, Cisco Kid and the Lone Ranger.


      You start the story and you set it up and you share/reveal but you do not complete or ever resolve.


      Humans have an insatiable desire to seek "closure." Do not give it. Readers keep reading until they find out how it all ends.
      And the only way it ends is when they buy.

      ----------------------------


      Second, you can have stories within stories within stories. DO NOT THINK LOGICALLY ABOUT THIS. Play and have fun with it. Be RANDOM.


      Why?


      Because sequential story telling is predictable. It's anticipatable. Leave all the loops OPEN. Unresolved. Never give the reader the satisfaction. Never. Story telling satisfaction is the kiss of death to a copywriter. Think like a kaleidoscope. One simple turn, and you have a whole new way of expressing.


      If your stories are compelling enough, people will buy just to discover the end of the story and how it turned out.


      -----------------------------


      WEAVE YOUR STORIES WITH YOUR QUALITY CONTENT and YOUR OFFER.


      The arch enemy of a copywriter is predictability. That's why most copywriting sucks. It's too predictable.


      Change it up. Weave, knit, sew, crochet your TRUE stories into the content and offer. Make it an irresistible tapestry.


      ------------------------------


      Rollercoaster writing:


      In script writing, they teach you to put people on a roller coaster. You've been on a roller coaster, yes?


      Stage #1: Uh oh... WTF did I get myself into?


      Stage #2: Oh myyyyyyy... This could be bad. Really bad.


      Stage #3: C***! Help!


      Stage #4: Oh S***. Houston, we have a problem!


      Stage #5: G** D*** It!
      Here we go again!

      Stage #6: Holy F***!!!!


      I could go on, but you get the idea. Watch a bit of cable and you'll see roller coaster scripts are the key to compelling movies.


      You can do the same with your copy and keep people mesmerized, on the edge of their seat, for hours.


      ------------------------------


      Yes, I could have done story telling and script writing here to prove. But I would have just been flaunting and I won't do that. I want to share.


      But test and try and see. You will be amazed.


      - Rick Duris
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      • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
        Interesting that I just unsubscribed from his list because he writes the laziest emails. Hardly any effort at all to tell WHY I should click to what he's trying to showcase.

        A real shame, with his talent.

        Marcia Yudkin
        Signature
        Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
          Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

          Interesting that I just unsubscribed from his list because he writes the laziest emails. Hardly any effort at all to tell WHY I should click to what he's trying to showcase.

          A real shame, with his talent.

          Marcia Yudkin
          That's really helpful, Marcia.

          Thanks for sharing it. Really uplifts the spirit of the forum.

          Well done.

          Brian

          </snark>
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
          Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

          Interesting that I just unsubscribed from his list because he writes the laziest emails. Hardly any effort at all to tell WHY I should click to what he's trying to showcase.

          A real shame, with his talent.

          Marcia Yudkin
          REPLY FROM DAVID GARFINKEL (posted on his behalf):

          I was really surprised and a little put off by Marcia's comment.
          Especially since it looked like the topic of this thread was
          my video, not the email I sent to my list to announce it.

          Even though I'm not a member of the Warrior Forum (I'm not
          a forum kinda guy), I'd like to post a comment since it looks
          to me like my work has been attacked, and Brian is kind enough
          to agree to post my response for me.

          I freely admit I used to write more muscular, detailed, energy-
          intensive emails to my World Copywriting Newsletter list than I
          do these days.

          That was before Twitter, text messaging, and the widespread
          condition of ADHD as the "norm" for everyday attention.

          Actually, I do write long copy in free, public messages to
          my list -- just not in emails. It is my belief that long emails,
          for most people, are an annoyance and don't get read, most
          of the time.

          Take a look at my blog if you'd like to see what I mean. On
          Monday, I think it was, I sent a short email to my list, referring
          them to an 843-word blog post with links to two videos and
          one book.

          The only 'lazy' element in that combination -- seems ta me... --
          would be the reader who was unwilling to click on the link to
          see what was on the blog.

          Same thing with the email I sent out yesterday. Actually, though
          a Ph.D. like Marcia may not fully embrace this viewpoint, it takes
          *more work* to write a 39-word email that, so far, has driven
          more than 700 viewers to my video...

          ... than it would to have written a long, tedious Puritanically-correct
          message that would have passed Marcia's "has talent, work hard"
          test but, alas, put my list to SLEEEP...

          Finally, Marcia, I get it. The thrill is gone for you. Whether the
          old-style longer emails were providing good swipe fodder... or
          serving as inspiration for your own emails... or maybe, hey,
          I don't know, meeting some implicit, secret, inner need...
          they're not doing it for you anymore.

          This is a sad day for both of us; parting is such sweet sorrow.
          But you did right by both of us, by unsubscribing. You know
          the waiting list for my newsletter is so long, and I'm sure the
          lucky person who got in to replace you will be grateful in
          ways you'll never know.

          David Garfinkel
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          • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
            [DELETED]
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            • My apologies if it's been mentioned, but...

              I read somewhere that telling multiple stories at once (and leaving open loops etc) not only helps keep people's attention... but it also helps build comfort/rapport with the person, because you're talking to them the same way that their good friends would.

              Listen to two people who know each other well, and you'll notice they're typically all over the place (unless one is hogging the conversation - and we all know how boring that is for the listener :rolleyes

              Love,
              Nick
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            • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
              From the archives... Michel Fortin on using nestled loops in copy... towards the end of his blog post.

              http://www.michelfortin.com/how-to-c...limactic-copy/

              --- Ross
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          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            I know you'll say I'm full of **** when you read this, but this is a true story...

            I spent 5 crazy days in Panama City, Panama back in January. The agenda was partying, fishing and relaxing. I was not disappointed. Something happened to me that you're not going to believe. Hell, I didn't believe it myself because **** like this does NOT happen in the states.

            I was staying at the Hilton, which used to be Caesar's Palace. Naturally, it has a casino
            which rivals a Vegas hotel. I'd finish every night in the casino before taking the elevator to crash till noon the next day. My third night there was ending like most of them, just playing some slots and blackjack. While pumping quarters into a slot machine, I noticed movement to my right...

            I'll tell you right now, I love the Latin senoritas. I think they're the most passionate and beautiful women in the world. And one of the most beautiful ones I'd ever seen just sat down 2 machines away. She had gorgeous mocha skin accented by gold bangles and necklace. Her brown hair was highlighted blond. And the way she filled out her jeans... J-Lo would be jealous.

            As I look at her, our eyes meet and she breaks into a dazzling smile, her red lips part and she says softly, "Hola..."

            I replied "Hola, como estas?" and I figured that would be about it because that was about all the Spanish I knew. Being a married man, I cashed out that machine and headed for the elevator before I did something crazy. As I left the casino and rounded the corner to the elevators, I thought I caught a glimpse of blond hair behind me. I pushed the up button and thank God, the door opened immediately.

            I pushed 14 and then began pounding the "Door Close" button. Finally, the doors started closing and I breathed a sigh of relief. I was a bit premature.

            Six inches from safety, her golden brown hand, long slender fingers, bright red nails and gold bracelets, shot into my safe room. The doors opened back up and there she was, smiling at me.

            She walked into the elevator and whispered something into my ear. If I post what she said and what happened next here, I'll probably be banned so I've created a separate page to finish the story.

            You can check it out at the link below but before you go, I want to give my thoughts on storytelling in copy.

            The casino...

            You see, I think some of the copywriters posting here are making a big mistake. I think they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the use of the "cliffhanger".

            The purpose of the cliffhanger is to get you to "hang on" until you get back to the exciting stuff. You see this all the time on television. Before the news goes to commercial, they tell you what's coming up next and it will usually be the story they've promoted all day long. Its the only one you want to see.

            They want to make damn sure you "hang on" through the boring commercials because you'll be too afraid to leave and miss the exciting stuff. And before the DVR, we had no choice. But let me ask you, what do you do if you've Tivo'd the news? You hit the advance button and pop right through all the commercials and get to the story, right?

            Screw hanging on when I can fast-forward!

            In a long sales letter, you've always got a Tivo button. We call it "Page-Down".

            When you break your story up into a parts and fill the intermissions with "commercials" for your product, you're begging them to "Tivo" right past the sales copy. And the better story teller you are, the more likely this is to occur.

            Now, did you click the link before reading this part? My money says you did. Joe Sugarman's money does too. If you've read "Triggers", he tells a very similar story and does exactly what I did with the link.

            Folks, this is NOT creating a greased slide. Its creating a ramp to jump right over your sales copy.

            Tell the damn story in its entirety, right up front.

            The purpose is to get them interested. If you do that, they'll keep on reading. I've proven it time and again but you don't have to believe me, Garfinkle did it in his video. He didn't break the cinnamon toothpick story into parts. He told it all and then he told you why it works.

            And if you look at Sugarman's copy, he does the same thing.

            The key to telling stories is to keep them interesting by adding conflict, tension and plot. My recommended book to learn these techniques is "20 Master Plots and How To Build Them" by Ronald B. Tobias.

            I love stories in copy. I won't write a letter without them. But you'll never see me add easily defeated cliffhangers which encourage my readers to jump over the important stuff.

            Good luck.

            PS: My story is true right up to the point where she followed me to the elevator... dammit
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            • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
              Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

              Screw hanging on when I can fast-forward!
              Hi Bruce,

              Great post. Engaging story.


              I disagree with the premise regarding "fast forward," but I appreciate your view and communication. What's missing is I believe you're assuming predictability of the story.


              Like "Get to the point, please. I have seen this all before."


              For instance, I read Stephen King novels. Even though the genre is obvious and they are 300+ pages long, the writing is tight, clear, to the point, unpredictable as well as compelling. If you're into Stephen King, once you pick one up, you can't put it down.


              If you read magalogs and are into the products or services they promote, the best ones have the same unpredictable, engaging, compelling element.


              And I believe the same holds true for long form web pages and authority sites. As long as it's unpredictable and relevant to the reader, you'll do fine.


              - Rick Duris
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              • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
                Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

                Hi Bruce,

                Great post. Engaging story.
                Thanks.

                Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

                I disagree with premise regarding "fast forward," but I appreciate your view and communication. What's missing is I believe is you're assuming predictability of the story.

                Like "Get to the point, please. I have seen this all before."
                I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion about predictability. And my premise about fast-forward is very well documented in television. In fact, Tivo was sued by advertisers because of it.

                Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

                For instance, I read Stephen King novels. Even though the genre is obvious and they are 300+ pages long, the writing is tight, clear, to the point, unpredictable as well as compelling. If you're into Stephen King, once you pick one up, you can't put it down.
                I agree completely about King's writing. In fact, I highly recommend "On Writing" by King for all copywriters.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

          Interesting that I just unsubscribed from his list because he writes the laziest emails. Hardly any effort at all to tell WHY I should click to what he's trying to showcase.

          A real shame, with his talent.

          Marcia Yudkin
          Marcia, frankly I'm shocked.

          David is one of the most technically talented and respected copywriters in the world.

          David doesn't email his list all that often.

          When he does, his emails and his blog posts are often brilliant.

          I'm not sure why you popped up here to bash David. It's not your typical style.

          That's why I'm shocked.

          Although I'm the NLP guy, David has trained EXTENSIVELY in it at the highest levels from Kenrick Cleveland, and David Gordon.

          At my first NLP Copywriting seminar, David demonstrated a level of mastery on an exercise that had people literally taking out their credit cards to buy an imaginary product.

          He's a true A list copywriter universally admired and respected.

          Until today, I've never - ever - heard a bad word about David.

          People who know him understand there's a structure in everything he does.

          On one of the first letters I did that included nested loops and open loops, David had the insights to point out problems even though looping is a very technical subject.

          Again, David is one of those guys who everyone respects.

          Marcia, you got me puzzled on this one.

          I have immense admiration for David's skills and integrity. And his teaching - whether in his videos or products - is crystal clear.

          I'm sorry you saw fit to attack one of the icons of copywriting for no reason at all.

          Harlan
          Signature

          Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
          http://overnight-copy.com
          Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
          Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
            Hmm... so if Marcia offers her opinion, she's "bashing" David, which is apparently a terrible thing to do.

            But bashing Marcia multiple times in return is OK, apparently. I like David's work a lot, but piling on somebody for merely expressing an opinion that's below the level of ecstatic praise is unnecessary.
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              I am really puzzled why so many people have said I attacked David for no reason.

              Let's take my loaded word "lazy" out of the picture. I do acknowledge that word carries a strong negative judgment.

              I was commenting that I had just unsubscribed from David's list because the very email that apparently got several others on this board to go look at this video got me to unsubscribe.

              I was fed up with receiving emails from David that (as I read them) told me to go to his blog but said next to nothing about why I should or how that would benefit me as a copywriter and copywriting mentor.

              I greatly respect David's copywriting knowledge and skill. I wish his emails were more informative and motivating. And I believe that's a relevant and substantive comment, not something from "left field" and not a purposeless "bash" at all.

              Do people really want to argue that "go read my latest blog post" is a top-notch and engaging way to communicate with one's list? Anyone who uses this approach, I unsubscribe from their list. Life is too short to be following directives from people who give no backing for them, regardless of their reputation.

              I had already deleted David's emails, or I would quote them here so you could decide for yourself.

              Marcia Yudkin
              Signature
              Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
        Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post


        Second, you can have stories within stories within stories. DO NOT THINK LOGICALLY ABOUT THIS. Play and have fun with it. Be RANDOM.


        Why?


        Because sequential story telling is predictable. It's anticipatable. Leave all the loops OPEN. Unresolved. Never give the reader the satisfaction. Never. Story telling satisfaction is the kiss of death to a copywriter. Think like a kaleidoscope. One simple turn, and you have a whole new way of expressing.
        [FONT=Courier New]
        Hi Rick, what you're describing to some extent resembles nestled loops. To anyone reading who wants to learn more, Joe Vitale in his book "Buying Trances" has a great chapter on this very topic.

        He shows you 2 letters, one penned by himself, the other by Harlan K, and he describes in detail how both make use of nestled loops: the opening and closing of storylines in a particular sequential order.

        Pages 149 to 166 are what you want to study. Here's the link to the book...

        Amazon.com: Buying Trances: A New Psychology of...Amazon.com: Buying Trances: A New Psychology of...

        --- Ross
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        • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
          Originally Posted by Ross Bowring View Post

          Hi Rick, what you're describing to some extent resembles nestled loops.
          Hi Ross,

          Yes, you are accurate.

          There are THREE KEY THINGS and those of you who have actually talked to me know this:

          1. I "jump tracks." I do not follow a story to a logical conclusion. That's DELIBERATE in my communication. It sounds like I am going off on a tangent but I am not. I realize I may frustrate the reader or listener from time to time and that's ok. Because there's learning/communication occurring.

          2. I leave stories (loops) unresolved. I never "close the loop." It keeps readers engaged looking for resolution and finality. And in the process their curiousity and learning are enhanced.

          If you watch and listen to normal communication, especially communication between women who are friends sharing, or friends at dinner, you recognize the process. People jump tracks all the time.

          Now let me reveal a simple example. I just gave you the first two important things. But:

          Now I'll bet you want to know what the third thing is, yes?

          Well stay tuned...

          And in fact I have a Warrior Forum Offer that reveals the third (missing) key to effective copywriting using story telling.

          (Just kidding.)

          - Rick Duris

          PS: I hate to be so obvious, but I couldn't help it. [giggle.] But you can use and apply to your own endeavors, yes?

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        • Profile picture of the author Matt_L
          Interested to learn more about who and what you wrote about, I searched for Harlan K and found this on You Tube. (you can find it by searching for A Copywriters Life Becoming A Copywriter Copywriting Coach )

          Is this the right Harlan K?

          Unless this was a parody or attempt at comedy, of which there is no mention, this video stamps a big fat question mark across his credibility.

          If this is the Harlan K. you wrote about, is it his copy techniques and not his business that we should study? (Not that I question his business ethics beyond the cheesy video - as I've never met or heard of the man before this cursory dive.)

          I found a sales page featuring Joe Vitale -- search for secret russian wishmaker to see it.

          Once you get past the silliness of the product, I expect that this is an example of good copywriting and storytelling? I see a lot of cliff hangers and tack jumping.

          (I accept that silliness is objective and relative.

          Only seeking to learn here. Hopefully the spirit of the forum remains lofty.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
            Hi Matt, I'm not familiar with the examples you cited.

            But Harlan is a member of this board. And Vitale, if you hit Borders or Barnes & Noble has a ton of marketing books to his name. For me they're a bit too rabid in their cross-promotion of his products, but you can find little gems of wisdom here and there.

            That's what I found in the nestled loops chapter in the book I pointed you to above.

            All the best with your study.

            --- Ross
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          • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
            Originally Posted by Matt_L View Post

            Interested to learn more about who and what you wrote about, I searched for Harlan K and found this on You Tube. (you can find it by searching for A Copywriters Life Becoming A Copywriter Copywriting Coach )

            Is this the right Harlan K?

            Unless this was a parody or attempt at comedy, of which there is no mention, this video stamps a big fat question mark across his credibility.

            If this is the Harlan K. you wrote about, is it his copy techniques and not his business that we should study? (Not that I question his business ethics beyond the cheesy video - as I've never met or heard of the man before this cursory dive.)

            I found a sales page featuring Joe Vitale -- search for secret russian wishmaker to see it.

            Once you get past the silliness of the product, I expect that this is an example of good copywriting and storytelling? I see a lot of cliff hangers and tack jumping.

            (I accept that silliness is objective and relative.

            Only seeking to learn here. Hopefully the spirit of the forum remains lofty.
            Oh please, just for a moment, bear with me. It's rather paradoxical, but if you stick with me here you will learn and you'll be able to apply.

            First, to get this out of the way: I am not Joe Vitale or Harlan Kilstein. I am not them. I make no comments, critiques or judgments about either.

            Those of you who have talked with me know this:

            My communication is NOT based upon manipulation or persuasion in the standard NLP voodoo sort of way you see that's popular. It just isn't. And yours doesn't have to be either. You can feel good about communicating effectively and congruently using NLP.

            Here... let's work through this... because it's obvious to me, when it comes to NLP, people are conflicted. They think using an NLP strategy like "embedded commands" for instance, they think they will magically put people in a robotic trance in their copy and they get people to buy.

            BS. BS. BS.

            Double BS.

            Show me one sales letter like that and I'll show you 10,000 people who rejected the lettter and who say "BS!" as well and called the writer a scammer.

            Do not underestimate your your reader or prospect. Ever. They are not dumb. They are not naive. They are not ignorant.

            So saying things like "So when is now a good time to buy my product?" is just plain stupid.

            Don't do it. Just don't do it. It will come back to haunt you, via buyer's remorse and chargebacks.

            There is a right way, a good way, to use NLP. An effective way.

            Let me share.

            Initally when NLP was young it was about modeling the best communicators. Like Virgina Satir, a psychotherapist. Or Fritz Perls, also a psychotherapist. Or Milton Erickson, a hypnotherapist. People who helped others get well or resolved family conflicts.

            They had personal, intuitive, almost psychic ways of communicating so that their patients achieved the resullts they WANTED quickly. Richard Bandler and John Grinder modeled them. Richard and John broke down their communication in ways previous unknown before. Many others who are very good have followed and have expanded the discipline.

            It's amazing, and they created a whole new way of thinking about communication.

            Since then, some people have misapplied and misappropriated their strategies. You see books about sexual seduction, sales and copywriting using NLP. And in my world, it's ALL BS.

            That's right.

            I said ALL of it. No matter what book you pick, they lack integrity and it feels, in my words, "icky." Like "Ewwwwww... you're kinda creepy, get away from me!" Like you're "pulling the wool" over someone's eyes.

            F*** that. And I mean that in the sincerest of ways.

            I will give you now the distinction that makes all the difference:

            To the point: With NLP, you can not be, you must not be, SELFISH. You must come from the heart--and have your customers, patients or Clients' best and highest interests at heart.

            Do that, and you can use all of the NLP resources, strategy and tacics effectively and congruently.

            Last idea and then I'll stop.

            When I was a kid, seven, maybe eight years old, my grandmother, Grandma Duris, locked herself in room. She was pissed off at something. I don't remember what it was, but she locked herself away for three days straight and wasn't budging.

            My parents were worried. My cousins were worried. My aunts and uncles had no idea how to resolve.

            Bottomline, they were thinking LOGICALLY. Trying to trick her into coming out.

            Out of the mouth of babes...

            After all else was unsuccessful, I went to the bedroom door and I knocked.

            "Grandma, are you there?"

            "Yes, Ricky."

            "Can you come out and play with me? I miss you. I want to play with you."

            The door opened... and we played for hours. And I was happy. And she was happy.

            My family was amazed. That's as much as I can share for now.

            While the questions I asked my Grandma don't sound much like NLP, they have EVERYTHING to do with NLP. Do not underestimate.

            - Rick Duris

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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Matt_L View Post

            Interested to learn more about who and what you wrote about, I searched for Harlan K and found this on You Tube. (you can find it by searching for A Copywriters Life Becoming A Copywriter Copywriting Coach )

            Is this the right Harlan K?

            Unless this was a parody or attempt at comedy, of which there is no mention, this video stamps a big fat question mark across his credibility.

            If this is the Harlan K. you wrote about, is it his copy techniques and not his business that we should study? (Not that I question his business ethics beyond the cheesy video - as I've never met or heard of the man before this cursory dive.)

            I found a sales page featuring Joe Vitale -- search for secret russian wishmaker to see it.

            Once you get past the silliness of the product, I expect that this is an example of good copywriting and storytelling? I see a lot of cliff hangers and tack jumping.

            (I accept that silliness is objective and relative.

            Only seeking to learn here. Hopefully the spirit of the forum remains lofty.
            Yep...that's our Harlan. Making like a beach bum (for the record Harlan - that's not surf - that's slop - I wouldn't even paddle out in those tiddlers :p) -

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      • Profile picture of the author Grain
        Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post



        Rollercoaster writing:


        In script writing, they teach you to put people on a roller coaster. You've been on a roller coaster, yes?


        Stage #1: Uh oh... WTF did I get myself into?


        Stage #2: Oh myyyyyyy... This could be bad. Really bad.


        Stage #3: C***! Help!


        Stage #4: Oh S***. Houston, we have a problem!


        Stage #5: G** D*** It!
        Here we go again!

        Stage #6: Holy F***!!!!


        I could go on, but you get the idea. Watch a bit of cable and you'll see roller coaster scripts are the key to compelling movies.


        You can do the same with your copy and keep people mesmerized, on the edge of their seat, for hours.


        - Rick Duris
        Exactly right!

        I've been thinking of how to explain this point about
        "swiping from movies". There are reasons why people can't
        resist going to watch a movie. There are huge, hypnotic
        reasons why people cannot leave in the middle of an action
        scene... as well as the "rollercoaster" sequence, as you so
        eloquently put it.

        Slam them into a seat and "may the games begin!"

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        Kind Regards,
        Grain.

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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    I'm gonna post something from an email I just received from my friend Ben Mack that was remarkably timely.

    In this piece Ben mentions Blair Warren (who has seemingly dropped off the planet) and his One Sentence Persuasion Course...

    ...search the War Room for "Occult Book" and you might find a copy.

    Anyway...

    Did someone say something about the Zeigarnik Effect?

    Maybe not, but it sure felt like it.

    Maybe you'll enjoy reading this.

    Brian

    The Ol' Zeigarnik Effect?

    The Zeigarnik Effect is said to be the most powerful tool of Direct Response marketing, advertising engineered to elicit an immediate response. Direct Response techniques are employed in infomercials, in spam email and letters asking you to send a check right now. Direct Response employs unabashed persuasion. Carl Rove began his career in Direct Response and applies the techniques of Direct Response to his political strategies.

    I asked persuasion expert Blair Warren to teach me The Zeigarnik Effect. Blair said, "Ben, people will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies." I asked if that was the essence of The Zeigarnik Effect. He said it was the antithesis of The Zeigarnik Effect. That stumped me. I asked what the opposite of people doing anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies. He didn't answer.

    "Ben, you should know this. You grew up as a kid magician. What was it like when you bought a magic trick from the magic store?" I told him I had bought a 9-inch silk hanky just last week. "No, Ben. I'm not asking about a prop for magic, I'm talking about buying a magic trick, purchasing a magic trick that had you fooled and you had to buy the trick to learn the secret." I had to think about that for a while. It had been a long while since I bought a magic trick to learn the secret. Then, it dawned on me. The last magic trick I purchased was The Invisible Deck.

    Blair asked me about the experience. I told him that the magic store employee had asked me to shuffle an invisible deck of cards and to remove a card and place it up-side-down in the deck. He then pretended to meld the invisible deck with a real deck and my card was up-side-down in his deck. "Ben, what happened after you purchased the trick?" Well, I ripped open the instructions and was extraordinarily disappointed how simple the trick actually was.

    "Did you ever buy a magic trick and wait, say, a day or two, before reading how the trick was done?" Never. "Why not?" I couldn't wait. "Why not?" I needed to know how the trick was done. I wanted to be able to do the same trick. I wanted to be amazing. "Was buying the magic trick a form of the magic store encouraging your dreams?" Yes. Is that what the essence of The Zeigarnik Effect, to encourage somebody's dreams? "No." What then? "Human nature - even the most extreme examples of persuasion such as suicide cults and mass movements - are based on the most basic of human desires. Just as magicians can perform miracles using mundane principles, powerful persuaders shape the world in much the same way."

    Are you saying the world is controlled by secret ultra-powerful magicians? "Ben. You sound paranoid when you talk like that. No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that people who have something to gain will often employ whatever they can to get what they want." Blair, isn't that the same thing? "No. Magic implies that there is some supernatural power employed. The Zeigarnik Effect simply exploits the basics of human nature." The Zeigarnik Effect empathizes with people's passions, exploiting their dreams and fears and whatever they feel strongly about? "No." What then? "If you wanted to remember 'encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies' how would you do it?" I'd make a mnemonic. I'd look at the first letter of each phrase and see if I could make a word: encourage, justify, allay, confirm, throw...e, j, a, c and t. ejact. I'd think of ejaculated and that would help me remember ejact and that would help me recall the list. "Well, our mind has many tricks like that. For instance, using the word 'because' has been proven to be more persuasive than giving a solid justification that doesn't use the word because. Our minds are hardwired in certain ways that a professional persuader can exploit."

    I asked him if he was going to teach me The Zeigarnick Effect or not. "Ben, I'm trying to prepare you. Like the magic tricks you have paid for in the past, the secret will be disappointing." Then disappoint me already.

    Jay, I wrote a letter to the editor, you. You printed my letter and titled it, "The Ol' Zeigarnik Effect," a term I failed to define. After my letter you expressed interest in knowing the secret. I may be a dick for teaching you this way, but I don't mean to be. I emailed an offer for coverage on a variety of persuasion techniques. You replied back that you wanted to know The Zeigarnik Effect.

    Jay, human beings have a need to know. The Zeigarnik Effect demonstrates that people are motivated by incomplete information. At the next party you're at, half-way through the party walk past a girl and say to her, "I overheard half of your conversation earlier and I really agreed with what you were saying." $10 says she'll break away from that group and come ask you what she said earlier. She'll be dying to know. If you want to be a jerk, start putting on your coat and tell her you'd love to tell her but you're running late and to call you.

    If I had simply emailed a sentence about incomplete information, you would have dismissed this idea. People are more motivated to learn and remember incomplete information than when something is given to them directly. The process of building suspense, of dividing information, increases the audience's titillation and makes them more likely to buy or take whatever action they are directed, or at least to give you more of their attention than they would have otherwise. Many times Direct Response advertising will build up a person's fear, making them feel incomplete and at risk until they purchase what will assay their newfound fear.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Brian, in Vitale's "Buying Trances" book there is a guest chapter by Blair Warren. That, along with the nestled loops chapter is what makes the book worth the purchase.

      This money quote, also in Ben's e-mail, has stuck with me since...

      "People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies."

      Good stuff.

      --- Ross
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    • Profile picture of the author MakeMoneyJames
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post


      In this piece Ben mentions Blair Warren (who has seemingly dropped off the planet) and his One Sentence Persuasion Course...

      ...search the War Room for "Occult Book" and you might find a copy.
      Ebook mentioned:
      http://blairwarren.com/osp.pdf

      Forbidden Keys to Persuasion even better.
      Forbidden Keys To Persuasion
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  • Profile picture of the author rickstooker
    Great post, Bruce, but I personally I don't equate nested loops with cliffhangers.

    New loops can and should be opened earlier than your link -- many novels have
    a large number of subplots running concurrently, with the chapters switching back
    and forth between them, until they converge at the climax.

    I'm not an NLP expert, so I'm not clear on why nesting loops allegedly creates
    "amnesia" and helps to sell products --maybe Rick can explain that.

    I've heard that Richard Bandler creates a lot of confusion by opening many different
    stories, but of course listening and reading are different.

    Ah, just thought of the great granddaddy of nested loops -- 1001 Arabian Nights.

    There's the overall framing story of the king and Queen Scherazade. And the stories
    as translated by Sir Richard Burton contain many stories within stories. (Note to parents:
    the full length, uncensored stories are NOT for children!).
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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by rickstooker View Post

      Great post, Bruce, but I personally I don't equate nested loops with cliffhangers.
      I wasn't arguing against nested stories at all. I started to write more about them but was tired of writing. Garfinkle used multiple stories in his video above and I'm all about that, but he told them from beginning to end, he didn't break them up.
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by rickstooker View Post

      Great post, Bruce, but I personally I don't equate nested loops with cliffhangers.

      New loops can and should be opened earlier than your link -- many novels have
      a large number of subplots running concurrently, with the chapters switching back
      and forth between them, until they converge at the climax.

      I'm not an NLP expert, so I'm not clear on why nesting loops allegedly creates "amnesia" and helps to sell products --maybe Rick can explain that.

      I've heard that Richard Bandler creates a lot of confusion by opening many different stories, but of course listening and reading are different.
      Allow me to resolve (and I am not being philosophical or abstract):

      1. When it comes to your reader, what's the most important aspect to copywriting?

      (C'mon you old dogs, *YOU* know this...)

      ATTENTION. (Remember AIDA?) You want to grab, hold, clutch, direct... and in my world, grab them with both hands by the neck and force them to read your copy because it's in their best interest.

      But here's the part most marketers f*** up. They think AIDA model is sequential.

      Like first you get their attention. Then you get their interest. Then you spark and then fan the flame of desire. Then you compel them to action.

      NO. NO. NO. Maybe decades ago... before I was born... maybe that was true. But not today. Not on the Internet.

      You have to hold their attention every single step of the way.

      Let their attention drift for a moment and you lose.

      Ask me how I know this.

      I have been accused of having ADD.

      So my most valuable mental asset? My attention.

      But think about this: From a copywriting perspective, as long as you have someone's attention, you have the opportunity to close the sale.

      Telling stories allows you to, gives you permission to, hold their attention.

      The key is make them compelling/riveting, relevant and keep the ending unresolved.

      2. As for Richard creating "confusion": That's true. He does.

      In changework, that's often relevant and useful. But in copywriting, it is not. (This is how NLP concepts get misappropriated.)

      "A confused mind never buys." I don't know exactly where I heard that, but it's true.

      3. Nested loops in copy may or may not create amnesia. I don't know. But I know they hold someone's attention, which is what I really want as a copywriter.

      - Rick Duris
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  • Profile picture of the author David Babineau
    Great post and info Ross, thanks for sharing.

    Thanks to Brian too for posting that email -- definitely a "printer-upper".

    Cheers,
    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Alexander
    Stories work because they're passive and not as "pushy" when it comes to selling. Good stories allows the listener/reader to engage fully with us because we're naturally curious.

    We like being led. And we like being entertained. If you can do both (very well) then you're halfway there.

    In fact, there is one technique in particular that I love so much when telling stories. It can be very powerful when used with purpose, and with deliberate application. In fact, it's responsible for most of my success as a magic performer.

    It's completey turned my "parlor" show from fairly entertaining, to something that draws and holds the attention of my audience almost more than anything else I do.

    Without this one tool, I was just a guy that did "tricks" and "puzzles", but with it, I (apparantly) can do miracles. It elevates any piece I use it on to a whole different level of entertainment by merely setting the stage right (metaphorically speaking) before the effect has truly begun - and the best and most succesful magicians do it almost without being aware of it.

    People stop, give me their complete attention, and completely focus and hang on every word I'm saying - always making the finish of the effect something that commands immediate appreciative response (hehe...a standing 'o').

    I learned it from an "old-school" Chicago magician (a true performance master) that isn't as well known these days amongst the Youtube crowd and "street"-magic sixteen-year-old's. Shame.

    But the most amazing thing happened when I realized this technique could be used in almost any situation when communicating with others to compel instant attention and genuine interest. As you know, it truly makes it so much easier to persuade when you can command that kind of attention.

    It's worked miracles for me, and it can for you too if you don't already use it. Especially when you give it the conscious practice it deserves. Without exaggeration this one technique alone can change your everyday conversations, relationships and more.

    Know what it is?

    (You already do of course...)

    You guys have mentioned it above.

    One of my favorite authors Steven K. Scott calls it "salting". It's not original with him obviously, but that's where I really learned to put it to use - like building intense curiosity in my audience.

    It works like this. If I want to share something with you, something that I know is valuable, but you may not have the right appreciation for yet, it's much better to get you to want to hear it first.

    You've talked about the same kind of things above, but I love the way he describes it. He says that while "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", he can get a horse to drink the water every time.

    You simply sprinkle salt to his oats, then bring him to the water.

    It's the same with conversations, and the same with performing magic. For example, in one effect I'll tell the audience a story about how there has been one "holy grail" effect in card magic that has escaped most magicians over the years.

    Magicians have sought after a good method to reproduce this legendary effect, but usually it suffers somewhere in the presentation and isn't worth performing until the perfect method is discovered (if there is any).

    I tell them this one trick is said to be...and that only a few magicians that I've read about can... and so forth.

    Finally, I tell them that while I can't do the trick for them, if I could do it, it might look something like this. And then I go on to perform it and so on.

    Salting, in that case makes the audience "prepped" to see what I'm about to do, as opposed to just taking a deck of cards out and saying, "wanna see something cool?"

    It may not read as well here, but story-telling (or as I like to call it "story-selling") using salting works great.

    If I can get you to desperately need to know what I already want to tell you, you'll find the information far more intrinsically valuable and relevant.

    I (somewhat?) tried to do so in this post before giving the answer. May not be the best example, but there ya go.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Nathan, that's a strong example of the power of climbing on the back of invented (yet believable) mythology to garner attention.

      That particular outline of "holy grail" method... whispered about... never perfected... but might look something like this... is powerful stuff.

      Great post.

      --- Ross
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      • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
        Originally Posted by Ross Bowring View Post

        Great post.

        --- Ross
        Great thread. The kind that makes visiting the WF worth it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
          I wanted to clarify something. In my post, I am expressing my opinion regarding telling the whole story versus splitting it up. I know there are some excellent copywriters who have had inarguable success doing it the other way. My good friend, Vin Montello, is an example.

          He and I have discussed this difference before. I can't convince him and he can't convince me. And that's ok. I have tremendous respect for his ability and track record.

          I guess it goes to show there is no "right" way. The key is to find YOUR way.
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          • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
            Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

            I wanted to clarify something. In my post, I am expressing my opinion regarding telling the whole story versus splitting it up. I know there are some excellent copywriters who have had inarguable success doing it the other way. My good friend, Vin Montello, is an example.

            He and I have discussed this difference before. I can't convince him and he can't convince me. And that's ok. I have tremendous respect for his ability and track record.

            I guess it goes to show there is no "right" way. The key is to find YOUR way.
            Hi Bruce,

            Sincerely: Your mental flexibility, willingness to learn, discuss and be open minded and even challenge are admirable to me.

            - Rick Duris
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  • Profile picture of the author rickstooker
    After I posted last night, I realized I'd blown it.

    Not only is 1001 Arabian Nights full of stories within stories within stories -- it's a
    premier example of the power of cliffhangers.

    If Queen Scherazade had given in to the king's desire to know the end of a story
    right away -- she'd have been beheaded in the morning.
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    • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
      Originally Posted by rickstooker View Post

      After I posted last night, I realized I'd blown it.

      Not only is 1001 Arabian Nights full of stories within stories within stories -- it's a
      premier example of the power of cliffhangers.

      If Queen Scherazade had given in to the king's desire to know the end of a story
      right away -- she'd have been beheaded in the morning.
      Hmmmm... (avert eyes if conservatively inclined)... immediate mind flash to the difference between a giving it up after one date and making the 'em wait for it.

      All this talk about stories, leads me to the basic premise of any impactful communication whether it be a joke, speech or a sales message. If you don't deliver the drama or challenge first, you won't get the massive impact you want.

      Think about the great stories, jokes, speeches, sales letters - there's usually some major obstacle or challenge that's been overcome or demolished. The greater the obstacle/gap that has to be surmounted, the greater the satisfaction at the end. Even if there was a fantastic ending yet you leave out the journey, the final effect is much less.

      (and back to where I started... the prettier the girl/boy the better the...ssssstory and of course sssatisfaction of ego - generally speaking of course)

      ...
      Signature
      Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Storm in a "D" cup. Complete beat-up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
    Ironic thing about the whole sub-plot about David's emails is I didn't get an email. I did a YouTube search for his name to see if he had anything new out and came upon it that way. Had no idea it was going out in emails the same day.

    Funny how these things turn out.

    --- Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author mjwilliams2
    Back on the story tip, the book Made to Stick has a pretty interesting chapter on stories rife with theory and examples. (While you're at it, you might as well read the whole book. There are great nuggets throughout for both copywriting and marketing in general.)

    The subtle power of stories is, once the reader finishes, she feels as if she's reaching the conclusion herself. So, you could tell me not to accept a beer from strangers because it's dangerous... or you could tell a story about someone who took a beer, got ruffied, and then had his liver harvested. Without explicitly saying it, I'll deduce myself that drinks from strangers are bad. You just guided me to the conclusion (nice!).

    This is also an excellent way to connect with the reader of your copy. Telling stories about yourself allows her to deduce that you're trustworthy, just like her, etc. Way more effective than screaming "TRUST ME BECAUSE I SAY SO."

    There are a ton of other subtle psychological benefits to storytelling, but I suggest you just go get the book.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by mjwilliams2 View Post

      The subtle power of stories is, once the reader finishes, she feels as if she's reaching the conclusion herself. So, you could tell me not to accept a beer from strangers because it's dangerous... or you could tell a story about someone who took a beer, got ruffied, and then had his liver harvested. Without explicitly saying it, I'll deduce myself that drinks from strangers are bad. You just guided me to the conclusion (nice!).
      Reminds me of the AA presenter who wanted to show the dangers of
      drinking alcohol and so took two earhtworms and placed one in a glass
      of water and the other in a glass of whiskey.

      The earthworm in the water moved around as lively as ever while the
      one in the whiskey took a dive for the bottom and stayed there
      motionless.

      When the presenter asked the audience what they learned from
      the illustration, one drunk in the back of the room shouted, "I learned
      that if I continue to drink whiskey I'll never have worms!"

      So be careful where your stories lead.

      -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Gregster
    This thread looks like it is drooping. Perhaps there are no more gems to be uncovered. However, it has glistered - even though all that glisters has not been gold - reflected and transmuted ... me ... along with it.
    I came to this thread to discover something about nlp copywriting. From that perspective, I was left with only shards. Instead, what I did receive, far exceeded my expectations. I feel as if I have been showered with pearls of wisdom from a copywriting masterclass.

    Thank you all for contributing.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Awesome video.

    I didn't know stories could be used in those 2 ways.

    Now I'm on a quest to find out every way a story can be used in sales...

    I have Unlimited Selling Power. I've always thought that was one of the best sales books I've ever read.

    As for the Marcia thing... David Garfinkel doesn't need to explain himself. There's always going to be someone angry about something you do no matter WHAT you do.

    Comes with the territory of having a list I guess.

    I had someone email me and say he was mad about the music playing on a sales page I sent him to. It was just regular old music.

    Just today alone I got at least 7 replies with people angry about me saying "Dude" in an email.

    The funniest thing ever is that I get the most complaints when I send people to free webinars and telecalls with experts sharing free info.

    So hey... It's ridiculous and I feel your pain. And I don't think angry whiners are buyers anyway. No sweat.
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    • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
      Jason,

      Have you read my 7 story secrets? It's been out a couple years now but some great ways to use story.

      FWIW... Garfinkel is the guy who forced me to write it.
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

        Jason,

        Have you read my 7 story secrets? It's been out a couple years now but some great ways to use story.

        FWIW... Garfinkel is the guy who forced me to write it.
        Funny... I just found that and printed it out, punched a few holes in it, and stuck it in my binder.

        Haven't read it since you first released it. About to study it again for sure.

        Actually... your copy and 1 other guy's is all I'm studying right now. I want to write copy just like you and this other guy who pulls crazy conversions who has a similar style as yours.
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        • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
          Jason,

          PM me with his name. I may have mentored him.

          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          Funny... I just found that and printed it out, punched a few holes in it, and stuck it in my binder.

          Haven't read it since you first released it. About to study it again for sure.

          Actually... your copy and 1 other guy's is all I'm studying right now. I want to write copy just like you and this other guy who pulls crazy conversions who has a similar style as yours.
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          Copywriting|Publishing|Training
          Your Premier Conversion Cooperative

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          CLICK HERE!
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          • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
            To paraphrase "O" on a drama-drenched Grant Park election night...

            If there is anyone out there... who doubts the ability of story to move people...

            This video is your answer...


            --- Ross
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            • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
              Okay, this is like the 4th page I bookmarked from this forum. Thank you Ross for posting this. It's great

              I can't find the thanks button so Thank You!
              Signature




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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
    When I started this thread I had a full head of hair.

    Good one to ressurect though. Rick, especially, goes off on some good riffs.

    --- Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author LaptopLivings
    Hey Ross,

    Though I've been a member here for a while now, I've never really "hung out" much, and this is actually my very first time in the copy writing forum. It was David's name that caught my attention though, because my very first exposure to the topic, or should I say the world of copy writing, was a course David put together for / with Mike Dillard called "The Copywriter’s Guild". I guess you could say I got off on the right foot! I've been pretty fascinated with "the topic" and the immense value of developing strong skills in this area ever since.

    Anyway, I've really enjoyed the thread a lot and just wanted to thank for starting it off!
    I don't know much about any "lame emails", but I would have to agree that Mr. Garfinkel is truly one of the very best out there. His course, which I was lucky enough to start off with, is still to this day, one of the most valued and most appreciated products I've ever purchased since I even learned how to spell "Internet Marketing", or started to get a clue what the term even meant.

    Thanks Ross!! (and everyone else) ...This was truly enjoyable.

    ~ Jeff
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    "Money is a terrible master but an excellent servant"
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    • Profile picture of the author mowse73
      Ross.
      Thanks for bumping this thread. I have really enjoyed reading it. Loads of great info here that I would have missed. It makes me wonder how many other gems are hidden away in this forum.

      Thaks to everyone who took the time to reply to this thead.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
        Originally Posted by mowse73 View Post

        Ross.
        Thanks for bumping this thread. I have really enjoyed reading it. Loads of great info here that I would have missed. It makes me wonder how many other gems are hidden away in this forum.

        Thaks to everyone who took the time to reply to this thead.

        Martin
        Hey Martin... thanks, but Mark Andrews bumped this baby, not me.

        --- Ross
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        • Profile picture of the author mowse73
          Originally Posted by Ross Bowring View Post

          Hey Martin... thanks, but Mark Andrews bumped this baby, not me.

          --- Ross
          Woops!

          Thanks Mark
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
            Banned
            For the incredible quality posts and info contained within this thread from some of the best of the best copywriters in the business, it deserves in my opinion... another bump to the top of the forum.


            Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Originally Posted by LaptopLivings View Post

      Hey Ross,

      Though I've been a member here for a while now, I've never really "hung out" much, and this is actually my very first time in the copy writing forum. It was David's name that caught my attention though, because my very first exposure to the topic, or should I say the world of copy writing, was a course David put together for / with Mike Dillard called "The Copywriter's Guild". I guess you could say I got off on the right foot! I've been pretty fascinated with "the topic" and the immense value of developing strong skills in this area ever since.

      Anyway, I've really enjoyed the thread a lot and just wanted to thank for starting it off!
      I don't know much about any "lame emails", but I would have to agree that Mr. Garfinkel is truly one of the very best out there. His course, which I was lucky enough to start off with, is still to this day, one of the most valued and most appreciated products I've ever purchased since I even learned how to spell "Internet Marketing", or started to get a clue what the term even meant.

      Thanks Ross!! (and everyone else) ...This was truly enjoyable.

      ~ Jeff
      You might also want to subscribe to David's "World Copywriting Institute" blog... and also check out the "Fast Effective Copy" course David & Brian Mcleod joined forces on.

      --- Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author AppsFromHome
    Hey Ross,

    So I know you posted this back in April of last year...but I am just coming across this today!

    Copywriting is always something I am working on and really is the lifeblood of any product or site....it doesn't matter what you're selling!

    This will help me create short stories that illustrate a point quickly and won't lose the readers attention, thanks again Ross!

    I think I'll check out and subscribe to David's blog right now....

    Cheers!
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  • hey

    thanks for posting that

    i love that guy
    Signature
    "Peter Brennan is the real deal, In the first 12 hours we did $80k...and over $125k in the first week...if you want to be successful online, outsource your copywriting to Peter"
    Adam Linkenauger

    For 12 ways to sell more stuff to more people today...go to...www.peterbrennan.net
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennie Heckel
    Hi All,

    Interesting thread. I thank you all for taking the time to respond.

    If you want to know more about David Garfinkel's and Harlan Kilstein's stuff then please read on...

    FYI: Just Google "Fast Effective Copy" for David Garkinkel's latest products. I have the hard copy binders and I am a member of his Fast Effective Copy Group. (And NO I am not an affiliate so you know, just giving a little info for those that want to check it out.)

    Recently I purchased David's newest package "Effortless Influence".

    This is pricy, but it is a super buy IF you use what you learn in it.

    I love it! It is chock full of value, and is ALL about using stories to sell. David outlines and reveals many of his private copywriting methods about how to tell/sell with stories. He gives excellent examples of the different kinds of stories and which ones to use, when to use them and how. He does a great job of showing you exactly what he does to use stories to go behind a readers radar and uncover and create a critical link to their subconscious and sell them. It is awesome stuff!

    On the NLP thread:

    For the last couple years I have been working on learning Harlan's NLP methods. If you are wondering if adding NLP to your copy is worth the expense (READ: blood, sweat and tears) and CONSIDERABLE TIME INVESTMENT to learn it -- IT IS. But..

    Be forwarned -- NLP suggestions and subliminal methods...they go really deep.

    I find my copy is much more engaging because the stories are more believable and resonate more deeply with the visitor's inner fears, deepest desires and personal/private dreams. I not only get inside their heads, but also unearth hidden wants, needs and desires -- and with having their subliminal needs uncovered and hopefully fullfulled (by the product) -- I can connect to the emotions inside their hearts... (and they buy from an emotional state not a logical one.)

    And with that private connection made... What that means is they are more likely to believe in me (and what I write) and buy. This is NOT hard sell. This is selling to their innermost wants, needs, and desires... sometimes it brings to the fore -- emotions that even THEY are not aware of...

    Conversions go up significantly using NLP suggestions -- using them very elegantly that is...

    NOT blantantly, which has given NLP (from people that don't know better about the use of NLP) a bad rap... And if buying (investing) in your product really is for their own GOOD, then what is the harm in it?

    But be aware... It is much tougher to weave NLP methods into your copy than at first glance.

    You can go really DEEP, like...

    i.e. nested loops, hypnotic induction with pacing and leading, causal modeling patterns, mind reading suggestions, nominalizations, embedded commands, relative clauses, repetive cue words, change of state verbs, negative questions, metaphors, and about 20 other NLP style suggestions (Harlan Kilstein is an expert on) in your copy!

    But... it IS worth the hard sweat to learn it, because it boosts sales tremendously. I find it doubles and even in some cases triples conversions when I split test it on launches.

    Just check out Harlan Kilstein's site and Google NLP Copywriting + Harlan Kilstein to find Harlan's stuff. (And NO, again, I am not an affiliate for him either... so rest easy on that.)

    But I do own his "NLP Copywriting Course", his "Value Based Copywriting DVDs", the "Art of the Swipe DVDs" and his "Real Estate Copywriting Course". They are all rock solid courses and when I used what I learned from them... It boosted my earnings in the last 2 years to almost DOUBLE my previous years! So was buying these courses worth the cost. YOU BET!

    I love Harlan's stuff. I love his sense of humor and how he tells it like it is!

    So dive into some NLP. It is worth the effort even if all you do is add engaging stories like Rick Duris says. Your conversions will rise higher than you ever dreamed -- but be sure and follow Harlan's methods so you do it with style!

    So Harlan if you come out with anymore goodies, let me know, OK?

    Good luck to all in your copywriting!
    Signature
    ******* WSO & JV ZOO COPYWRITER -- VLS & SALES LETTERS PROVEN TO CONVERT ******* Get Higher Profits From Launches That SELL! Proven Copywriter with 17 Years of Copywriting Experience. Contact Me Via Skype: seoexpertconsulting Copywriting Website: http://www.VideoScriptCopywriter.com

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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jennie Heckel View Post

      Harland Kilsteins stuff ...Harland Kilstein's site ...Harland Kilstein... Harland's stuff. Harland's stuff. Harland's methods...So Harland if you come out
      Write out 100 times "Harlan Kilstein".
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        Write out 100 times "Harlan Kilstein".
        Or Frank Kern. Did I mention Frank Kern, the Frank Kern, the one and only Frank Kern.

        Couldn't resist it.

        Pot Kett... .....
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

          Or Frank Kern. Did I mention Frank Kern, the Frank Kern, the one and only Frank Kern.

          Couldn't resist it.

          Pot Kett... .....
          God knows what you're on about - I'm talking about the spelling of "Harland" for "Harlan". Der.

          You're just a bloody troublemaker. She's a mate of mine. And at one stage asked me (like you) if I would mentor her.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

              FK can eat my shorts ring any bells?

              The dry humour was obviously lost on you Mal.
              Dry humour? Is that what you call it? Completely missing the point of my comment is what I call it. And malicious to boot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennie Heckel
    Hey Mal,

    Yeah, you are right to call me out on that...

    But I have to tell it like it is...

    I DO LOVE Harlan Kilstein and David Garfinkel AND Clayton Makepeace....

    The fact is, with these copywriting experts help I write copy that SELLS and FINALLY CONVERTS!

    With what I learned from them in the last couple of years... helped me break $100,000 NET last year with my copywriting business. (**MY POINT HERE, IS IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE YOU START OUT YOU CAN SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS --- IF YOU INVEST IN YOURSELF AND IF YOU WORK REALLY HARD, AND GIVE IT YOUR ALL -- YOU CAN BUILD A SUCCESSFUL COPYWRITING BUSINESS.)

    And... I have written copy (that they ran and made money on) for Ken McCarthy, Brad Callen, and Andy Jenkins -- maybe you have heard of them?

    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I did 3 launches last year with Chris McNeeney (Chris X) , and Mo Latif (the top 2 Clickbank affililiates. They made over $500,000 NET (not gross sales) off just 1 launch I did in the first 30 days....and I am booked for more launches for this year...)

    *** POINT 2, YOU CAN RUN WITH THE "BIG DOGS" EVEN IF YOU ARE A FEMALE.)

    I would be ungrateful if I did not mention the incredible expertise of the people that have helped me to be successful. And that includes this forum and the awesome people I meet here...

    Just sayin'

    Jennie
    Signature
    ******* WSO & JV ZOO COPYWRITER -- VLS & SALES LETTERS PROVEN TO CONVERT ******* Get Higher Profits From Launches That SELL! Proven Copywriter with 17 Years of Copywriting Experience. Contact Me Via Skype: seoexpertconsulting Copywriting Website: http://www.VideoScriptCopywriter.com

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    • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
      Originally Posted by Jennie Heckel View Post

      Hey Mal,

      Yeah, you are right to call me out on that...

      But I have to tell it like it is...

      I DO LOVE Harland Kilstein and David Garfinkel AND Clayton Makepeace....

      The fact is, with these copywriting experts help I write copy that SELLS and FINALLY CONVERTS!

      With what I learned from them in the last couple of years... helped me break $100,000 NET last year with my copywriting business.

      And... I have written copy (that they ran and made money on) for Ken McCarthy, Brad Callen, and Andy Jenkins -- maybe you have heard of them?

      Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I did 3 launches last year with Chris McNeeney (Chris X) , and Mo Latif (the top 2 Clickbank affililiates. They made over $500,000 NET (not gross sales) off just 1 launch I did in the first 30 days....and I am booked for more launches for this year...)

      I would be ungrateful if I did not mention the incredible expertise of the people that have helped me to be successful. And that includes this forum and the awesome people I meet here...

      Just sayin'

      Jennie
      Oh yeah, you forgot to mention your modesty...LOLOL.

      Too much of a self-love fest.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley View Post

        Oh yeah, you forgot to mention your modesty...LOLOL.

        Too much of a self-love fest.
        Rubbish. She doesn't need to be modest.

        She's done it. Proved it Thomas.

        Proved she's got what it takes to not only survive in this fiercely competitive business but can also keep up with the best in the business.

        And if she wants to shout this out a little from the rooftops - good on her.

        It's proves without a shadow of doubt she has confidence in her ability to provide superb value for money for her clients.

        What are you saying, that she maybe should cower herself away in a corner frightened to speak of her successes?

        Isn't it strange, when a guy does this, another top copywriter on the forum, nobody bats an eyelid. But as soon as a lady does it - she's accused of a lack of modesty. Go figure. :rolleyes:

        'Self-love fest'? Yes and no.

        Not with the negative connotation you're implying definitely not.

        This isn't false pride. It's got nothing to do with this in the absolute slightest. You're way, way, way off base Thomas. Off the scale.

        Every serious professional copywriter worth their salt feels confident in themselves. You need to be confident in your own abilities to deliver these kind of results for your clients.

        Self love, nothing wrong with it at all. It simply demonstrates succinctly and clearly the fact she takes great pride in herself and her work ethic. To serve the interests of her clients old and new very well.

        I believe this positive attitude should be applauded.


        Mark Andrews
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
          Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

          Rubbish. She doesn't need to be modest.

          She's done it. Proved it Thomas.

          Proved she's got what it takes to not only survive in this fiercely competitive business but can also keep up with the best in the business.

          And if she wants to shout this out a little from the rooftops - good on her.

          It's proves without a shadow of doubt she has confidence in her ability to provide superb value for money for her clients.

          What are you saying, that she maybe should cower herself away in a corner frightened to speak of her successes?

          Isn't it strange, when a guy does this, another top copywriter on the forum, nobody bats an eyelid. But as soon as a lady does it - she's accused of a lack of modesty. Go figure. :rolleyes:

          'Self-love fest'? Yes and no.

          Not with the negative connotation you're implying definitely not.

          This isn't false pride. It's got nothing to do with this in the absolute slightest. You're way, way, way off base Thomas. Off the scale.

          Every serious professional copywriter worth their salt feels confident in themselves. You need to be confident in your own abilities to deliver these kind of results for your clients.

          Self love, nothing wrong with it at all. It simply demonstrates succinctly and clearly the fact she takes great pride in herself and her work ethic. To serve the interests of her clients old and new very well.

          I believe this positive attitude should be applauded.


          Mark Andrews
          We're all entitled to our opinion. And, oh yes, we are. Even though you tend to think your opinion is that only one that counts around here. I couldn't disagree with you more as we often do.

          It's bragging plain and simple.

          If I want bragging, I will definitely call on you ...LOLOL.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
            Banned
            Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley View Post

            We're all entitled to our opinion. And, oh yes, we are. Even though you tend to think your opinion is that only one that counts around here. I couldn't disagree with you more as we often do.

            It's bragging plain and simple.

            If I want bragging, I will definitely call on you ...LOLOL.
            There's no need to be argumentative on this thread Thomas.

            I bumped this thread to the top of the forum again because the original advice offered here by several of the top copywriters on this forum is nothing short of brilliant.

            Let's not detract from this please.

            Thank you,


            Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Originally Posted by Jennie Heckel View Post

      Hey Mal,

      Yeah, you are right to call me out on that...

      But I have to tell it like it is...

      I DO LOVE Harland Kilstein and David Garfinkel AND Clayton Makepeace....

      The fact is, with these copywriting experts help I write copy that SELLS and FINALLY CONVERTS!

      With what I learned from them in the last couple of years... helped me break $100,000 NET last year with my copywriting business.

      And... I have written copy (that they ran and made money on) for Ken McCarthy, Brad Callen, and Andy Jenkins -- maybe you have heard of them?

      Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I did 3 launches last year with Chris McNeeney (Chris X) , and Mo Latif (the top 2 Clickbank affililiates. They made over $500,000 NET (not gross sales) off just 1 launch I did in the first 30 days....and I am booked for more launches for this year...)

      I would be ungrateful if I did not mention the incredible expertise of the people that have helped me to be successful. And that includes this forum and the awesome people I meet here...

      Just sayin'

      Jennie
      Congratulations Jennie!

      --- Ross
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Jennie Heckel View Post

      With what I learned from them in the last couple of years... helped me break $100,000 NET last year with my copywriting business.

      And... I have written copy (that they ran and made money on) for Ken McCarthy, Brad Callen, and Andy Jenkins -- maybe you have heard of them?

      Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I did 3 launches last year with Chris McNeeney (Chris X) , and Mo Latif (the top 2 Clickbank affililiates. They made over $500,000 NET (not gross sales) off just 1 launch I did in the first 30 days....and I am booked for more launches for this year...)

      I would be ungrateful if I did not mention the incredible expertise of the people that have helped me to be successful. And that includes this forum and the awesome people I meet here...

      Just sayin'

      Jennie
      Great job Jennie... CONGRATS!
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jennie Heckel View Post

      Hey Mal,

      Yeah, you are right to call me out on that...

      But I have to tell it like it is...

      I DO LOVE Harland Kilstein and David Garfinkel AND Clayton Makepeace....

      The fact is, with these copywriting experts help I write copy that SELLS and FINALLY CONVERTS!

      With what I learned from them in the last couple of years... helped me break $100,000 NET last year with my copywriting business.

      And... I have written copy (that they ran and made money on) for Ken McCarthy, Brad Callen, and Andy Jenkins -- maybe you have heard of them?

      Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I did 3 launches last year with Chris McNeeney (Chris X) , and Mo Latif (the top 2 Clickbank affililiates. They made over $500,000 NET (not gross sales) off just 1 launch I did in the first 30 days....and I am booked for more launches for this year...)

      I would be ungrateful if I did not mention the incredible expertise of the people that have helped me to be successful. And that includes this forum and the awesome people I meet here...

      Just sayin'

      Jennie
      Not you too???? Check your spelling of HARLAN'S name. Are you all blind?

      I could care less if you mention your mentor's name a thousand times. But the spelling aint right.

      Why would I begrudge your success? And why would you even think that?

      How would you feel if someone posted "Jenny" over and over - instead of "Jennie"?

      Again - I'm not calling you out on anything - besides your spelling. Which, being the man's name, is important.

      Christ almighty...this place.

      I have many faults...but begrudging somebody else's success is not one of them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        And and one stage asked me (like you) if I would mentor her.
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        Not you too???? Check your spelling of HARLAN'S name. Are you all blind?

        Again - I'm not calling you out on anything - besides your spelling.
        Mistake above Mal. See? We all make them. No one is perfect.

        No point pointing them out to others when we ourselves make them too.

        This applies to all of us. Me. You. Everyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Quattro
    I'm learning the art of copywriting myself. This is defintley bookmark worthy material
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    I'm happy for you, Jennie, keep it up!

    ----

    When it comes to stories, here's a little nugget to check out:

    The Editing Room, home of the original Abridged Script.

    What's an Abridged Script?

    Think of them as Cliff's Notes for popular movies. 'Cept Cliff's an assh*le and he doesn't like your movie.

    On deck: The Hunger Games.

    The Editing Room: Abridged Scripts for Movies

    It's great for giggles, story ideas and ways of framing conversations. Or random diversion.

    - Rick Duris
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  • Profile picture of the author Needza
    This video was really inspiring.

    Storytelling is actually a passion of mine in both my song writing and personal life. My dad was a great storyteller. We didn't have television, only a few DVDs and my dads imagination. and I am very grateful for that now.

    I can't wait to apply storytelling more to my copywriting after seeing this video! Thanks so much for posting, will definitely check out the books...

    Anyone else have a storyteller instead of TV at home growing up?
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