Curious: Are you interested in NLP copy?

44 replies
The headline's pretty much self explanitory...maybe you could share how you use it too...I think that's really cool.

My number one sales strategy is the fact that the customer has already made up his mind to buy....if he didn't he simply wouldn't be there....

So, I like to vividly identify and graph out the customer's fear and desire.

And I always give the customer free and highly valuable information just for visiting the page...it's called Reciprication.

This plays into fear and desire but expand the customer's new self image and shift it into play towards buying and going through the product...this is when I love to further expand the self image through visualization....I always make sure the customer gets an idealized version of my product if they genuinely go through the material.

Also, I love the whole establish yourself as an authority BUT NEVER BE AN EXPERT....there's a huge difference here. People like passive authoritative...they love it actually.

Hmm...k, so I guess I'll just leave it there.

Do you have feedback and strategies or does anyone have any questions?

And would this make for a good WSO....If you have experience on the topic like to run a JV?

Does NLP copywriting sound like a fun topic to get into?

I'm looking to further define this skill...I have a lot more than this but I think this is good enough to spark a convo...

Aaryn
#copy #curious #interested #nlp
  • Profile picture of the author jbode
    I also like to provide valuable content, usually right at the start of the sales letter to prove I know what I'm talking about...

    I like using a variety of NLP depending on the situation...
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  • Profile picture of the author Megafoo
    NLP = ????
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    • Profile picture of the author Joey J
      I've been eating this stuff up like crazy lately...

      if you can prove to me with your copy that you know what you're talking about, I'll buy.

      There's so much garbage out there about NLP but the info that is worth while... will change your life, period!

      The only 2 I've found of value so far are:

      Persuasion skills black book by Rintu Basu <----- Influencing others

      and

      NLP The New Technology Of Achievement <----- Influencing yourself
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

    My number one sales strategy is the fact that the customer has already made up his mind to buy....if he didn't he simply wouldn't be there....
    Fact? Hardly. Haven't you ever happened on to an offer that was so well presented you had to have it? Did you start out looking to buy it? It's called impulse buying and it's a MAJOR part of the market.

    If people have already made up their minds beforehand, there would be little need for copywriters...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      People are at various stages of awareness. Some could care less, others are thinking about buying. But going after those who are ready to buy is of course where the real gold is. It then becomes a matter of getting them to buy from you instead of somebody else.

      I like how Ben Hart states it,

      "Put yourself in the path of a charging stampede of people who are desperate to buy what you are selling."

      Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Hi Aaryn,

        Your next task: Do the keyword research and you'll know.

        No opinion on my part is required. The data alone will tell the tale.

        - Rick Duris
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        • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
          Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

          Hi Aaryn,

          Your next task: Do the keyword research and you'll know.

          No opinion on my part is required. The data alone will tell the tale.

          - Rick Duris
          Thanks...I was more looking at the feel of the term NLP because it's an interesting one... unconscious persuasion is key....

          What I mean by NLP, and what I hope everyone knows in this thread, is that the whole buying process is unconscious...with that said we have to understand natural fundamental psychology...or how our "Neurons" are structured and how to best exploit them COMBINING IT TO COUNTER common sales you see in practically every page.

          I dunno..I'm just curious to get a discussion going vs. numbers this time.
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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Fact? Hardly. Haven't you ever happened on to an offer that was so well presented you had to have it? Did you start out looking to buy it? It's called impulse buying and it's a MAJOR part of the market.

      If people have already made up their minds beforehand, there would be little need for copywriters...
      hmm..I'm thinking we're in different niches because if someone's at my site looking for a new information product about online business...I'm pretty sure they'll buy any good sales pitch...just my thoughts.

      What I meant is...you don't need to sell hard because they'r mind is already made up...if they're looking at a sales page on how to start a business....I'm pretty dang sure they've made up their minds that they want to start a business ; )

      In that context they've already decided to buy..all you have to do is give them what they want and you make your sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Robert Cialdini talks about some of this in his book "Influence: the Psychology of Persuasion"... specifically the need for consistency (which you refer to with the new self image thing).

    He also mentions reciprocation, but I believe that works a LOT better in a situation where the person will lose face if they don't buy. The internet (or a direct mailing) is anonymous so you lose a lot of that social pressure.

    I think most good copywriters do this stuff... but I don't think it's NLP. NLP is neuro-linguistic programming... using words to "re-program" the brain.

    When you write copy you're really just tapping into what desires are already there.

    And I disagree with you on the "the customer has already made up his mind to buy" thing. If that was true, everyone would have 100% conversion rates.

    -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author Copyhog
    Hi Aaryn,

    A few years ago I came across a branch of NLP called Quantum Linguistics that really interested me. After studying it and applying it to my copy, things really took off for me and my business Contrast Media.

    Quantum Linguistics teaches you how to present your sales arguments logically, stringing your target audiences perspectives together until they come to the same conclusion about your product as you do. Its not trickery, mind control or any of that nonsense - its using the right language and the right emotive words to sell honestly and effectively.

    If you want a branch of NLP to look into I say go with QL!

    Regards,
    CG Dewing
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Copyhog View Post

      Hi Aaryn,

      A few years ago I came across a branch of NLP called Quantum Linguistics that really interested me. After studying it and applying it to my copy, things really took off for me and my business Contrast Media.

      Quantum Linguistics teaches you how to present your sales arguments logically, stringing your target audiences perspectives together until they come to the same conclusion about your product as you do. Its not trickery, mind control or any of that nonsense - its using the right language and the right emotive words to sell honestly and effectively.

      If you want a branch of NLP to look into I say go with QL!

      Regards,
      CG Dewing
      I took your suggestion and ordered their audio set. It's basic NLP language patterns they have renamed. Very little of it is relevant to copy.
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      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Curious: Are you interested in NLP copy?
        I'm interested in persuasion tactics.

        Most NLP principles can't be used in written copy, and those that can are simply methods of persuasion already in use before the term NLP was invented.

        Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author Copyhog
        Its a shame you didn't find any useful info with that audio set, I still truly feel like quantum linguistics can be very beneficial - but of course when you look around online there are sharks who sell sets, ebooks and what not that don't contain any real info.

        I should have mentioned that NLP attracts a lot of dubious businessmen who see it as a money spinner - it wasn't my intention to get you to buy useless stuff - which is why I didn't recommend any specific source! You have my most sincere apologies about that.

        QL teaches principles that can be applied to writing - its just about finding the right sources who have the good info on it. Try looking for print sources, those are usually the best.
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        • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
          Originally Posted by Copyhog View Post

          I should have mentioned that NLP attracts a lot of dubious businessmen who see it as a money spinner - it wasn't my intention to get you to buy useless stuff - which is why I didn't recommend any specific source! You have my most sincere apologies about that.

          QL teaches principles that can be applied to writing - its just about finding the right sources who have the good info on it. Try looking for print sources, those are usually the best.
          Or maybe you could suggest some specific resources that were particularly useful to you in understanding and applying QL as you mention Copyhog. Anyone interested in learning more wouldn't then acquire useless stuff inadvertently (as in Harlan's case).

          As you say, there are some dubious sources out there and without any valid references, it's very possible to pick up something less than useful.
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          Scary good...
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          [QUOTE=Copyhog;2080789

          QL teaches principles that can be applied to writing - its just about finding the right sources who have the good info on it. Try looking for print sources, those are usually the best.[/QUOTE]

          I try to stay current although so much comes out it's difficult.

          Ultimately, the best thing to do is just read Erickson in the original.

          What print sources do you recommend?

          Thanks.

          Harlan
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          Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
          http://overnight-copy.com
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          • Profile picture of the author Copyhog
            Hi again Harlan,

            I do agree with many of the war members here when they say that QL crosses over with persuasion, I myself have written extensively on mass persuasion in online marketing - I guess its all a matter of perspective.

            I read quite extensively on a lot of subjects to do with language, linguistics, and communication and have done a lot of research that includes branches of NLP, hypnosis and QL - but honestly its not so much a single book that has helped me but years worth of study and application.

            Personally I think that closing yourself off to different forms of communication and perspective ends up limiting the way you write in the end. I would start as you suggested with Ericksonian hypnosis and then make your way through authors like Dale Carnegie, Joe Vitale, Steven Pinker, Noam Chomsky, Rintu Basu and Shelle Charvet to build a greater knowledge of language and persuasion.

            As for a book on QL, nothing comes to mind, but perhaps I'll write one soon - who knows. I really hope this grounds you better, obviously if your knowledge of language and linguistics is limited applying any new concepts will be hard, so best to start at the beginning
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              Originally Posted by Copyhog View Post

              I would start as you suggested with Ericksonian hypnosis and then make your way through authors like Dale Carnegie, Joe Vitale, Steven Pinker, Noam Chomsky, Rintu Basu and Shelle Charvet to build a greater knowledge of language and persuasion.
              Now why didn't I think of reading Erickson on my own? And Joe Vitale too? Wow!

              I'll get right on it.

              [eye roll]

              Harlan
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              Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
              Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
              http://overnight-copy.com
              Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
              Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

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              • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
                Hi Aaryn,

                Here's the thing and it's really simple:

                In NLP terms, you write in terms of generalities, absolutes and vagaries. Also, lofty pseudo-scientific ideas.

                I say that, having more "NLP" oriented certifications than I can remember.

                Given you are a human psychology expert, I have no desire to point them out. It's a meta-program you have. You already know, I'm sure.

                Plus, your posts lack specifics. Details. The fine points that make all the difference in copywriting.

                Not to ladle on, but your posts lack emotion and passion. They lack referencing the human condition. No stories. They're intellectual, cerebral, academic and self-centered.

                Like we're kinda playing a game of chess. Seeing who will win.

                If you're writing sales letters in a similar fashion...

                NOBODY IS GOING TO BUY.

                NLP OR NOT.

                Just like Daniel isn't buying your argument now.

                Not only that, when you yourself say "I suck at copywriting," and then in another related post, you say you write sales letters in a day and you make $100K in seven months, well then all I can say is:

                You're (implicitly) asking for the scrutiny.

                What Daniel is objecting to ISN'T you personally. He doesn't know you and you're aren't going to change his life or lifestyle one bit. So please don't take it personally.

                In NLP terms, what he's objecting to is the "incongruency" of your communication and lack of specifics.

                - Rick Duris


                PS: No need to defend. My true desire is to help you become a better copywriter.

                But if you rebutt and challenge, you get the rare opportunty to watch me unleash. I'll micro-dissect every paragraph, every sentence, every word and letter. It will not be pretty and you will be humbled.

                Of course, I don't want to do that.

                But it would make a great spectator sport. And I am sure people would enjoy watching a faceoff between "NLP experts."

                Again, as I told you privately, I have no need or desire to pick a fight. My heartfelt preference is to see you do well business-wise.

                Please, again, in NLP terms, take my communication as the most sincerest forms of (NLP) feedback.

                Bottom line? Get congruent. Get specific. Invoke emotion and some passion. And you'll be on your way copywriting-wise.

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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I see "NLP" used as a meaningless buzzword so frequently, I'm actually less likely to be interested in a product or technique that claims to include NLP.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    People name drop "NLP" as if Richard Bandler had fathered legions of illegitimate children. It's especially annoying when they attach it to copywriting. As Mr. Cohen said, in copywriting it's persuasion, not NLP. NLP relies on sensory modalities: Vision, Auditory, and Kinesthetic. If you write it, it's persuasion. And persuasion is a skill as powerful and effective as NLP when practiced by a master.
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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by eQuus View Post

      People name drop "NLP" as if Richard Bandler had fathered legions of illegitimate children. It's especially annoying when they attach it to copywriting. As Mr. Cohen said, in copywriting it's persuasion, not NLP. NLP relies on sensory modalities: Vision, Auditory, and Kinesthetic. If you write it, it's persuasion. And persuasion is a skill as powerful and effective as NLP when practiced by a master.
      PERSUASION IS THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW OUR BRAINS ARE STRUCTURED AND HOW TO PERSUADE THE PROSPECTS TO BUY.

      NLP IS UNCONSCIOUS PERSUASION.
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  • Profile picture of the author jukeboxhero
    Only recently have I been fortunate enough to experience first hand, the substantial conversion increases NLP can provide in your copy.

    If you've been frustrated by dismal product sales then you'll not only appreciate the sharp increase in sales NLP provides, you'll also enjoy how simple and fun writing copy becomes ;-)

    Seriously though, a really fun technique I've been dabbling with is framing my messages in terms of "Who I was talking with, where I was at, or what I was doing" when I wrote the message or got the story that I'm now sharing...

    Another fun one is telling people in an email "As I explained last week (message I want them to get)..." I've been great results using this for scarcity, curiosity, and downright panic in my list.

    The dirty trick here is while your readers conscious mind off looking for answers as to whether or not they got the message your speaking of (which they didn't)... Your real message is sinking in with virtually 0 resistance.

    Oh and all that killer stuff you've heard about Harlan's NLP in copy course is absolutely true... Except for one thing.

    It's even better than the hype. Seriously though.
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    If Copywriting Legends Like John Carlton, Gary Halbert and Even Franky Kern Recommend

    >>>> This <<<<

    Shouldn't You Pay Attention
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    Guys...I honestly suck at technical copy...language, flow, presentation.

    I SUCK!

    "NLP" is the only stuff I use in my copy. I understand fundamental human psychology.
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

      "NLP" is the only stuff I use in my copy. I understand fundamental human psychology.

      I'm no carpenter by any means... but if all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail. That's all I am going to say.

      - Rick Duris
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      • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
          Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

          ehh...I'm incredible at understanding the customers...and $100,000+ my first 7 months in business means I'm doing something right.

          But you're completely right and I'm already accounting for it...I'm going to be hiring a copywriter full time to polish my sales pages pretty soon...I mean I make them in a day anyways lol
          You're talking yourself up an awful lot.

          That sets my BS meter off the charts.

          Great thing about an internet forum - anyone can *say* they're making whatever they want.

          You're saying a lot of stuff professionals responsible for millions (myself included) are disagreeing with... and not just in this thread.

          None of that is proof positive you're not who you say you are.

          But it certainly is making me think twice...

          -Dan
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          Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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          • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
            Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

            You're talking yourself up an awful lot.

            That sets my BS meter off the charts.

            Great thing about an internet forum - anyone can *say* they're making whatever they want.

            You're saying a lot of stuff professionals responsible for millions (myself included) are disagreeing with... and not just in this thread.

            None of that is proof positive you're not who you say you are.

            But it certainly is making me think twice...

            -Dan
            Then don't listen to what I have to say...it's pretty simple. I was just saying that I suck at copy yet I still make money so obviously I was doing something right...

            I've learned from Frank Kern & Eben Pagan and I haven't touched anyone else's material(hmm...Rich Schefren too I guess.) just to let you know...both are $20,000,000 men.

            I'm not "talking myself up"...I'm just saying this is my style of marketing and that's how I've made my money at a certain time...if you feel that's boasting than you can just completely ignore everything I have to say...it won't hurt my feelings. My ego got filled up when I moved away from home, I'm not looking for anymore status than that.

            Obviously methodologies conflict with each other...if you understood business and psychology the slightest bit you'd understand I'm conflicting with other view points...I'm still a complete newbie duh. You expect things to be perfect?

            All I was doing was asking what people thought about the way I run my business from a copy perspective and people called it out so I said this is my personal experience with it...then I get called out. sooo if you doubt than why would you take your time to call me out? Because I think differently than you? Doesn't make sense to me...I hardly ever talk about money on this forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zentech
    I take pretty much the same approach as AwesomePossum. I just write copy based on an understanding of human psychology. I'm aware of NLP but wouldn't really care whether anyone called it that, subconscious persuasion, or simply selling. Sales is sales. It's all about psychology from top to bottom anyway.

    That's not to say I'm unwilling to study NLP or anything else. Quite the opposite. I'll look at anything that might provide some new insights. I'm just saying that there's already a foundation of psychological understanding in place for me, and without that I wouldn't even be offering to work for people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Why did I take time to call you out?

    Because you're presenting your opinion as fact. And as a guy who pays his bills based on the copy he writes, I think it's dangerously incorrect.

    There have been a lot of people come and go on this forum who say they earn a lot of money in a short time frame. Most of them do exactly what you're doing then vanish, never to be heard from again.

    My point isn't to belittle you. It's to point out to impressionable newbies reading this thread that, based on what you're writing, I don't think you are who you say you are.

    I could be wrong, of course. But there's a lot of factors that set off my BS detector in your post, and I don't want someone to add months onto their learning curve because they followed bad advice.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Why did I take time to call you out?

      Because you're presenting your opinion as fact. And as a guy who pays his bills based on the copy he writes, I think it's dangerously incorrect.

      There have been a lot of people come and go on this forum who say they earn a lot of money in a short time frame. Most of them do exactly what you're doing then vanish, never to be heard from again.

      My point isn't to belittle you. It's to point out to impressionable newbies reading this thread that, based on what you're writing, I don't think you are who you say you are.

      I could be wrong, of course. But there's a lot of factors that set off my BS detector in your post, and I don't want someone to add months onto their learning curve because they followed bad advice.

      -Dan
      I think my problem is that I'm in the copy thread....

      I've already said I suck at copywriting...and considering I pay all of my bills from a business I started within the past year I'm pretty sure I feel the pressure of needing to

      So your saying that using scarcity, uniqueness, and panic as your sales tactics doesn't work? Not to mention ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING YOUR CUSTOMERS DESIRES AND FEARS AND HOW TO LEVERAGE THEM INTO YOUR SALES....

      If you disagree...I honestly have no reason to continue this call out. I'd honestly rather look like a fraud to everyone.

      By all means..I'll stop posting in the copy thread. I don't like to be helping others out with my view points if I'm going to be setting people off....it's just no fun.

      And honestly...what part of my "opinion" is "fact" to me? I'm a little confused about what your saying here...I mean from what I thought copy was about persuasion to get the prospect to hit the buy button....maybe I'm missing something here.

      Honestly...I'm just posting all of this in the wrong thread...obviously I don't get paid for my copy skills....obviously. I've stated I've sucked at technical copy all over this part of Warrior.

      P.S: I'm here to stay...maybe not in the copywriting section though. It's hard for me to learn here because people bash others viewpoints if they're different or they passively agree with you...hmmmm...I'm not sure how I can learn here so what's the point? There is none I guess.

      And you talk about the mentors I've dissected for months haven't made millions either.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by AwesomePossum;2133036So your saying that using scarcity, uniqueness, and panic as your sales tactics doesn't work?[/quote


        Never said that at all. I don't think that has anything to do with NLP though.
        By all means..I'll stop posting in the copy thread. I don't like to be helping others out with my view points if I'm going to be setting people off....it's just no fun.
        It's a discussion forum. If you start a thread, it will be discussed. Critical discussion generally leads to a better understanding for both parties. Saying you'll "take your ball and go home" when someone challenges you is a little silly.

        And honestly...what part of my "opinion" is "fact" to me? I'm a little confused about what your saying here...I mean from what I thought copy was about persuasion to get the prospect to hit the buy button....maybe I'm missing something here.
        I said you're PRESENTING your opinions as fact. And that's a dangerous thing to do for others when you have nothing to back it up except vague ideas about how things might work.

        I get copywriting and persuasion isn't exactly a science. But full disclosure is important. Maybe you're just not communicating your points as effective as you think you are - it happens. Maybe that's why what I'm reading and what you believe you're saying appear to be two different things.

        I'm here to stay...maybe not in the copywriting section though. It's hard for me to learn here because people bash others viewpoints if they're different or they passively agree with you...hmmmm...I'm not sure how I can learn here so what's the point? There is none I guess.
        If you're looking for sympathy with the "poor me" attitude, you'll get none from me. We don't "bash" - we disagree. Most of us are open to a logical, reasoned counter-argument.

        What we're not open to is vague, absolutist (not sure if that's the word I'm looking for) claims... especially when you mention starting a WSO in your OP.

        Most of us who present our opinions have clients. Track records. Experiments. Etc.

        You have nothing. Expect your opinions to be picked apart - especially with claims like "everyone who comes to your sales page has already made up their mind to buy".

        You present a theory. The theory is challenged. You then look for a way to challenge the rebuttal. That's how a discussion works. Not "if you don't believe me I'll just leave".

        And you talk about the mentors I've dissected for months haven't made millions either.
        I think there are crucial words missing here, because I'm not actually sure what you meant by this statement. Can you rephrase?

        -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    Right....then I think we have different definitions of NLP.

    Neuro Linguistic Programming to me is how our Neurons are structured and how we think and operate as humans....it's the same exact thing as human psychology.

    Anything that's psychological is NLP to me...because influence happens at a subconscious level. People don't understand how they work because it's their realities, it's pretty simple.


    It doesn't do any good to talk to someone when they challenge the experience I've had with it...I started out this discussion presenting a few strategies or methodologies to hopefully get a talk started on the subject...not defending it....when I was new to Warrior I got involved with arguments defending my viewpoints and they always led nowhere...I've wised up...some people are willing to have a talk without completely trying to discredit the other person....if you feel you have to completely say...ya this is BS and I've seen it before...why would I try to defend myself?

    If I'm stuck defending my position all the time then I'll never have room to grow...yes you're right...critical discussions are incredibly beneficial...I have them with my girl all the time..probably too much...but I'm not a fan of having to defend myself.



    Dissection to me is: To go through a product....take notes on the product...and to completely mess with it and tweak it different ways to see how it fits with other business models and methodologies...to combine and twist.

    Dissection is taking different, seperate pieces and put them together into one fluent system.


    And ok, we'll just call my income void because my track record's too hypy for you. I'm genuinely cool with that.

    I mean...I just don't see how you can't talk about theory...everyone has a personality...if I showed exactly how I did my things people would just try to copy it and not understand what goes wrong when it does....

    Both concepts are important...theory & implementation(live testing/experimenting).

    The problem I'm left with when wanting to start a thread is to either talk about theory or present my background and direct sales and what I did...obviously you'd have a problem with that too.

    Honestly...I'm not sure how to rebuttal fundamental psychology. Either you understand it or you completely ignore it...how else can I say "We like to cheat out other people and when we do, it's incredibly hard not to buy?" I mean...I just don't know how to do it...how else can I say "When there's something rare, people have a burning desire for it?"...I mean hundreds of wars were started over this in our history. People are naturally competitive so if you give them a unique edge to an incredibly valuable resource how does that not produce buying?

    You never once said I don't believe in NLP...you said....you're BS and I don't believe you are who you say you are....how else am I suppose to rebuttal this? That wasn't a critical discussion over NLP...not in the slightest bit Dan. I love to talk to other people about new viewpoints....but I hate all this nonsense that goes on in between it.


    You're talking yourself up an awful lot.

    That sets my BS meter off the charts.

    Great thing about an internet forum - anyone can *say* they're making whatever they want.

    You're saying a lot of stuff professionals responsible for millions (myself included) are disagreeing with... and not just in this thread.

    None of that is proof positive you're not who you say you are.

    But it certainly is making me think twice...

    -Dan



    That is why I didn't want to talk to you. It had nothing to do with "theory being challenged"

    Aaryn
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    And Dan...these aren't my theories fyi...just the millionaire I study.
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    NLP: Neuro Linguistic Programming

    Neurons are the pathways inside of our brain that determine how we think, feel and act. It's how we see our world(everyone's different..it's called personality.)

    It turns out that we have survival ingrained in us still and survival in itself is the #1 sales strategy.

    This is something I'll say without defending because I don't want to pick up another "critical conversation"...all I'll say is it's kind of the reason we're in a recession and our financial system in America is set up to completely abuse the way we think and act.

    You can pick up a book and look at how to link that to marketing if you'd like...if not let's just call it unstable, vague theory. I'm 100% cool with that..I was just giving out a suggestion that's all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    NLP is not fundamental psychology.

    You're talking about persuasion like it's NLP... it's not.

    NLP deals with subconscious habits... and how to get around those to break addiction and bad habits.

    Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In the purposes of disclosure, I think a LOT of the NLP stuff around is crap, or just a slightly different take on conventional psychology.

    But that's a story for another time.

    If you use established words you have to use them in their established context with their established meaning, or else you'll confuse a lot of people.

    On to the whole belief issue... try and look at it from someone else's point of view.

    You walk into a forum... saying you want to launch a WSO... that you make six figures in seven months (a very rare phenomonon, and massive congrats)... and make insane arguments like "everyone who lands on your salespage wants to buy".

    (I THINK what you meant was "I assume they're all buyers, because I don't care about the people who aren't". That's a wise position to take... but it's very different.)

    Now, on a forum where every week we have tons of people pretending they walk the walk when they don't... can you see why myself (and others) are suspicious?

    For clarity, I'm not saying you're not why you say you are. I'm just saying that I have no reason to believe you are, and I'm cautioning people to take the same stance in case they're planning on blindly following your advice.

    In short, I'm on the fence, and I'm advising the newbies (who don't yet have the ability to separate the truth from fiction) to do the same until more information comes to light.

    You don't know me, so you probably think I'm out to get you, or that I don't like you... and it's not like that.

    I have nothing against you personally. But you did present some wild claims, and I'm too curious a person to not dig for more info.

    -Dan
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    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      NLP is not fundamental psychology.

      You're talking about persuasion like it's NLP... it's not.

      NLP deals with subconscious habits... and how to get around those to break addiction and bad habits.

      Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      In the purposes of disclosure, I think a LOT of the NLP stuff around is crap, or just a slightly different take on conventional psychology.

      But that's a story for another time.

      If you use established words you have to use them in their established context with their established meaning, or else you'll confuse a lot of people.

      On to the whole belief issue... try and look at it from someone else's point of view.

      You walk into a forum... saying you want to launch a WSO... that you make six figures in seven months (a very rare phenomonon, and massive congrats)... and make insane arguments like "everyone who lands on your salespage wants to buy".

      (I THINK what you meant was "I assume they're all buyers, because I don't care about the people who aren't". That's a wise position to take... but it's very different.)

      Now, on a forum where every week we have tons of people pretending they walk the walk when they don't... can you see why myself (and others) are suspicious?

      For clarity, I'm not saying you're not why you say you are. I'm just saying that I have no reason to believe you are, and I'm cautioning people to take the same stance in case they're planning on blindly following your advice.

      In short, I'm on the fence, and I'm advising the newbies (who don't yet have the ability to separate the truth from fiction) to do the same until more information comes to light.

      You don't know me, so you probably think I'm out to get you, or that I don't like you... and it's not like that.

      I have nothing against you personally. But you did present some wild claims, and I'm too curious a person to not dig for more info.

      -Dan
      Sorry Dan, I missed this post so I responded to others first..

      Yeah...we'll just say I'm definitely weird.

      I mean..I'm different then most people because I've studied success and game theory for 3 years now so I had the mindset to begin with...confidence, confidence is key...you kind of have to blindly be over...you have to be...hmmm...my vagueness is taking over right now...you have to be stupidly confident and stupidly set your standard incredibly high...and at the same time be stupid enough to believe in all of it....

      Also...I found a business partner who's IMed full time for 3 years and we fit perfectly....I lucked out.

      Honestly...I can go back and delete that part of the post if you'd like...that way I won't be giving any info because like you said...this stuff is definitely shaky and so am I...it makes perfect sense...I'm actually going to go back and change that part now....I'm finally starting to be able to talk about what I want to anyways so me defending my vagueness through first hand experience doesn't mean anything at this point.

      Hmm...as far as NLP goes...let's just drop the definition of NLP....I don't except standard definitions anyways..honestly....I view NLP as our thinking patterns and that includes psychology...but that's just me...once again...I'm really really weird.

      Let's just call NLP voodoo and pick up a convo on persuasion...that's what I wanted in the first place.


      And what I meant by prospects have already made the decision to buy is that...they've already made the decision that they're interested enough to go looking around a niche...for me that's starting an online business....and I know if you're looking to start an online business that 99% of the time there's something wrong in your life and you want a solution....that's what they've decided...they've already convinced themselves they want to find something to buy that'll change their lives....all we have to do is show them what they want to see...that's when they click the buy button...

      That's just the way I see it though...I think in revers of everyone else....I just show my prospects what the product is and paint the picture of who it's for then I give them the value they're looking for....

      It's a really good strategy so to understand my customers incredibly well and when I combine that with funneling sales I get a really cool subscription list

      The cool part is that I only sell a certain amount of products(and I hit it hard) so it helps with the buying too.

      I dunno...I think a huge key to my sales and copy is to sigh highly valuable and incredibly rare resources in small volumes.

      I'm not sure if that counts as copy though.

      I think we started off on the wrong foot because I hate my ideas getting stepped on because I know they work FOR ME! Doesn't mean they'll ever work for anyone else : p...seriously. There could be one idea I use that I don't even know about...and just that one idea could make everything else I say worthless....it's just life and it's how business works. If someone finds an idea in here they like it's not like they have to live by it or anything...I'm a fan of trying new things anyways.

      You are right though...there's a lot of dangerous info out here for newbies....my advice is to pick ONE PROVEN MENTOR OR GURU TO FOLLOW and to understand and TRY all of his/her stuff. All we have to do is find a proven person to learn from...mine are industry leaders. I don't care about underground top secret knowledge...I just want to know how the big gurus make their money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Calamaroo
    I heard a story about a TV infomercial that used what in NLP is called a "presupposition" - of which there are at least 14 types.

    At the end of the infomercial, the infomercial originally said:

    "Call now! Operators are standing by!"

    Then they changed it to:

    "If the phone lines are too busy, please call again later!!!"

    The second closing supposedly sold several hundred percent more items than the first one. Because it presupposed - indirectly assumed to be true - what Cialdini calls "social proof", which is the tendency for people to do something because others are doing it too.

    IMO, some NLP techniques work for copywriting while other NLP techniques don't. Examples of presuppositions:

    "Are you going to pay for this using paypal or credit card?"
    "What is the second thing that you will be delighted about once you have bought Market Samurai?"
    "Would you like to upgrade right away?"

    Other NLP techniques don't work. For example, embedding a command like "Buy now you should know what this product can do for you." or "Buy now you should be excited about this." would just make you look stupid while insulting the intelligence of the buyer.
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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by Calamaroo View Post

      I heard a story about a TV infomercial that used what in NLP is called a "presupposition" - of which there are at least 14 types.

      At the end of the infomercial, the infomercial originally said:

      "Call now! Operators are standing by!"

      Then they changed it to:

      "If the phone lines are too busy, please call again later!!!"

      The second closing supposedly sold several hundred percent more items than the first one. Because it presupposed - indirectly assumed to be true - what Cialdini calls "social proof", which is the tendency for people to do something because others are doing it too.

      IMO, some NLP techniques work for copywriting while other NLP techniques don't. Examples of presuppositions:

      "Are you going to pay for this using paypal or credit card?"
      "What is the second thing that you will be delighted about once you have bought Market Samurai?"
      "Would you like to upgrade right away?"

      Other NLP techniques don't work. For example, embedding a command like "Buy now you should know what this product can do for you." or "Buy now you should be excited about this." would just make you look stupid while insulting the intelligence of the buyer.
      haha...yeah, I think insulting people isn't the best way to get sales...maybe

      I think social proof is huge...but like someone said earlier...it's tough to get the social proof angle when he's at home alone...I think I'm onto something with this though...

      I'm trying to take that angle in my sales of building a community where people can really get close to each other...kinda like Warrior...just in a more restricted and...hmmm...motivated way.

      It's hard for me to explain this because it's not something I've been really looking at..it just kinda popped in my head one day...

      Basically...we all HATE DOING STUFF ALONE...ESPECIALLY SOMETHING THIS HARD. It sucks!! It's no fun especially when there's so much...hmmm...let's just say people looking at us from the outside in all tell us this whole IMing thing is a scam...I'm pretty sure all of us had someone say that to us and some point...and it probably wasn't when we were making money from it : p

      So from that angle...if we can build a close community where there's successful people actively engaging(my biz partner's been doing this full time for 3 years now.) and we have customer standards of succeeding...sigghhh...I'm not saying this right....grrrrr...

      Basically, putting a group of people together with a huge drive to get out of their current situation....and to actively paint out that picture as the face of you community....and then to brand it with supporting, caring and helping each other when they need help...either in business or in life...

      that's a picture worth painting for social proof. Especially when people see others hopping on board and doing it.

      It's also amazing seeing someone who makes good money continuously present...that social proof makes life a thousand times easier for someone starting out...especially when everyone's engaging and having fun with all of it.

      Random but yeahh....

      And upselling is SO COOL! I have this idea I'm going to be testing in my next product(s) launch...we're going to be giving out a free DVD with S&H...they put in their card/paypal...then we upsell....

      When that happens...theory has it that the "buying mode" has already been triggered so I'm going to try the whole upselling thing....

      I guess this definitely should have been put in the main forum but ohhh well...this all is still loosely based in copy.

      Sorry if this ended up in the wrong thread because I have a feeling this discussion is more gearing towards overall marketing theories.

      Aaryn
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      • Profile picture of the author Zentech
        haha...yeah, I think insulting people isn't the best way to get sales..
        I dunno, it can work pretty well in some niches. Remember this guy? He pretty much defined the "insulting the prospect" approach a while back and made a fortune. I think he's pretty well over with now, but that was some high-converting stuff back in the day.

        I could write that sort of copy, but wouldn't - it's just not my style. He did incredibly well with it, though.
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        • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
          Originally Posted by Zentech View Post

          I dunno, it can work pretty well in some niches. Remember this guy? He pretty much defined the "insulting the prospect" approach a while back and made a fortune. I think he's pretty well over with now, but that was some high-converting stuff back in the day.

          I could write that sort of copy, but wouldn't - it's just not my style. He did incredibly well with it, though.
          LOL! I've never seen that but you're completely right...my vagueness is killing again...I meant it's not good to consider your customers stupid...that insulting.

          I guess it could work...but once again it's not my style really and it's definitely not the customers I want to attract and work with...talk about horrid support! Think about all the customers that guy gets!! He's got to get the worst emails ever...he definitely outsources all that or he's going to die a horrible death : p

          I think alot of top end marketers use that style though...not so extreme as to insult...but to identify someone's rough spot and agitate it...who's a master at that??

          It's like..uhhh...I dunno. John Reese maybe Jeff Walker....could be neither...there's a guru out there that does it though and he gets wicked good conversions...especially because he delivers the results in his products.

          That's all that matters in the end: Results...at least in my business it does...I like loyal, intelligent, and motivated repeat customers...that's cool for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zentech
    Nah, don't stop. I'm getting insights just from this argument. Good stuff. So many sharp people around here, I'm glad I joined.
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    Awe...thanks Rick. I really appreciate that post.

    1. I'm by no means an expert at NLP : p I just love psychology.

    2. This is starting to clear things up actually....believe it or not I have a lot of passion and emotion in business...I can't even describe to you how much I enjoy waking up every morning and learning something new.

    I actually have a business partner and I'm already mentoring 2 people...all 3 of them love the passion I have. I seriously love this game. It's an incredible thing and I genuinely enjoy waking up everyday...it's soo repetitive but I've struggled to pull myself out of bed every weekday for the past 10 years. I had no drive...no reason to wake up and no reason to go to school....I felt dead inside because I was forced to live a life where I woke up, ate breakfast, then sat in a chair all day learning about adjetives and how to graph y=3X + B....hmmmmm....k, this wasn't a good picture painting : p


    My point is I love mentoring people who are looking for a better life. It's incredible...all my passion is locked up there so every time I make a new video or write an ebook it's over material that's fresh in my mind. I'm ecstatic when there's a new perspective in my head but outside of that I'm relatively calm ; )



    And about the whole copy...I totally suck at it. Yet I still make good money from typing my own sales letter....how I do it? I dunno...I think I can bust out my copy in a day because my sales pitch always starts when I make a product...I make products that people have a huge problem that they don't really know about...then I just vividly paint the picture...really passionately.

    It's a hard thing for me to explain...it only comes out of me in certain situations really. When I'm out with friends having fun, kickin it with my girl, or when I'm talking to my customers(which are newbies to online business)...I just feel them and I understand them...I get that their life sucks di*k and that they want a way out and I feel them...I let them know that I do and I let them know I've been there....and most of all I let them know how great building your own online business can be....being able to work in a place you enjoy doing. There's seriously a great niche for everyone so anyone can have fun with online business....and honestly if I got into the lifestyle right now I'd type forever actually ; ). It's just something I understand on a deep level.

    With that I make products that will make or break any online business and I let them know exactly why it's important, who the product is for, exactly what to do(step by step exercises) and how to implement my product into their life.

    I've got a lot of the learning models down and I try to combine success and energy efficiency into the products....that way they're always motivated and ready to do the next thing...I always TRY to link back every activity to the thing that hit's their passion...like their hot buttons...just not in words, in ideas....

    All of this goes into my products and I blend it together so by the time I write my copy I spend one day preparing....then I bust out the copy in 3 or 4 hours...sometimes it happens in chunks. I just get a huge inspiration for the sales page so I bust it out then...it's something that can't be replicated outside the moment you know?



    With that said...I think that theory and specifics are two different sports. Completely different.

    But my thought is that theory creates the specifics so I'm only concerned about theory until I implement...this whole post was about theory and that's the frame I set it up as....once I set up a frame I live inside of it >.<

    I love specifics but it's something I can't talk about here. How do you talk about NLP specifically you know? I just can't do it lol

    So was kind of in a objective mode because that's what you have to do with theory...if your too passionate about your ideas you'll never grow as a person BUT like you said you have to have passion and love what your talking about....the way I separate it is through switching my...uhhh...I dunno. I call them frames but uhh...state of mind. Way of thinking patterns, etc.

    Rick I'm curious...

    I have no clue where any of this came from but

    In your copy do use use the 5 personality types?
    I think it's: people, places, things, learning...I always forget this last one...obviously I'm lacking in it : p...I don't use it....like do you use your niche to target in the personalities of your customers?

    I'm really fond of the whole 4 learning styles:

    1. Why are we doing this?, 2. How does this work?(Theoretical), 3. How do I use it?(How to..specifics. Step by step), and 4. what if I implement it?(why and when do I use it...how do I plug it in)

    I'm sure this is shocking but I use #1 to anchor into #2 & #4...then I combine them into a step by step process for #3.

    When I combine that with me understanding my customer's fears and desires...what their life is like right now and what they want...seriously, I can feel them here...I was stuck in this situation for over a year trying to find a way out...I finally found business.....right so when I combine all of this together with painting the picture of how valuable this actually is and how important the product is to them DIRECTLY changing their lives....THEN I COMBINE THAT WITH SCARCITY....

    That's how I write my sales pages....

    Do you have any advice? How do you develop your sales letters?

    I beyond suck technically though. Like I went through half of a Yanik product and half a John Carlton...when I remember to use them, I'm pretty good but other than that...I completely wing it.

    All I'm saying is it works for me...doesn't mean it has to work for anyone else. I was just giving my opinion asking if anyone wanted to talk about "NLP" copy...I shoulda posted Psychology or persuasion thread...that would of been a lot better.

    I was just getting pissed cuz I had to defend something when all I wanted to do was talk about it.


    But NLP is such a...broad perspective. You can't talk about it specifically...it just doesn't work you know? Being narrow will get you into trouble and create you to get stuck into patterns of thinking...obviously thinking theoretically does too but that's outside of this situation...maybe ; ) Probably not.

    And Rick..you stopped offending me when you took the time to PM me buddy. I sincerely appreciate your help.
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

      Awe...thanks Rick. I really appreciate that post.

      [snip]

      Rick I'm curious...

      I have no clue where any of this came from but

      In your copy do use use the 5 personality types?

      [snip]

      And Rick..you stopped offending me when you took the time to PM me buddy. I sincerely appreciate your help.
      Hi Aaryn,

      And I appreciate your situation and I am oh so glad we were able to work things through.

      As for your question, I do not get analytical in a DISC, VAK, Myers Briggs or Kolby sort of way, although I can.

      I do the research, ask the main questions... Who is a my REAL target market?

      What are their hopes and dreams and fears? Good or bad, what keeps them up at night? I want to know.

      For instance, I was collaborating and brainstorming with someone on a relationship-oriented info product. The person needs to write a sales letter.

      But it was a hunch on my part that women have different needs, values, desires, etc. in a relationship than men do. (Duh! )

      And that means for the sales letter to really do it's job, you actually need two different letters. One for men and one for women.

      So I get ultra-specific on who my real buyer is.

      (And if you think I'm misguided about this, compare Cosmo and Maxim side by side, and see for yourself.)

      My point is I tend focus on emotions and feelings that folks have. I don't know your market but when you say words like "scarcity" and "panic," I get what you are trying to accomplish. You want to agitate fear and amplify and embellish.

      And I would agree, if it's appropriate.

      - Rick Duris

      PS: Again Aaryn, I am appreciative we were able to work things through. Sometimes, my words cut, and I never want that.
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    Cool...no I definitely agree.

    I've been trying to use the whole anchor my customer's desire to secure a fear in my copy you know?

    My market is kinda specific...not ultra but kinda. I'm more relying on numbers than conversion rates. Sounds weird but I teach how to start an online business...more specifically how to quit your job through online business. It's just...I feel there's so much emotional drive there that it's ok not to be ultra specific about things...of course I'm going to ultra niche as my company grows...but for now, it's a great way to build a business fast.

    As for the fear panic thing....my partner is launching our product right now and for the copy I used our unstable economy(obviously not in those word : p) to push the prospects out of their comfort zone...again, if prospects are cruising around our niche then they want a solution to their problem...then I backed it up with one-on-one support with a guy who's spent $50,000 on IMing education and has spent thousands of hours in trial and error...I tried to paint a picture of how IMing lead to a happier and healthier lifestyle and let them know they had everything they needed(not by sayin...we're showing you everything...step by step...week by week layout) to buy our coaching program. On top of it, we're only releasing 200 copies & once. Like I said before...I can relate with "newbies" really well right now because I spent the past 3 years in my life trying to make a living unconventionally so I feel and understand what they're situation is like because it's so fresh in my mind....and of course I wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't believe in my partner's products ; )....all I'm saying is when a guy's made a living off IMing for 3 years and he's creating a product about every successful he's learned, I feel confident with making my customers uncomfortable and selling to them persuasively.



    Up till this point the products came from my partner but I feel I'm at a point where I can teach what I'm learning as I apply it to my own business models, backtest it(experiments), then revise & release my products. Plus..I only learn from the best anyways...duh : p

    The coolest part is that I'm confident my products are more valuable than 99% of the other ones I've seen...I think it's because I can't paint a picture rather than only give out ways to make money.(I do that too though)...I'm thinking all of that might help my copy too.


    Guys and girls want different things in relationships?...ohhhh that explains why I'm so bad at keeping girls ; )
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