I also like to provide valuable content, usually right at the start of the sales letter to prove I know what I'm talking about...

I like using a variety of NLP depending on the situation...

NLP = ????

Fact? Hardly. Haven't you ever happened on to an offer that was so well presented you had to have it? Did you start out looking to buy it? It's called impulse buying and it's a MAJOR part of the market.

If people have already made up their minds beforehand, there would be little need for copywriters...

Robert Cialdini talks about some of this in his book "Influence: the Psychology of Persuasion"... specifically the need for consistency (which you refer to with the new self image thing).

He also mentions reciprocation, but I believe that works a LOT better in a situation where the person will lose face if they don't buy. The internet (or a direct mailing) is anonymous so you lose a lot of that social pressure.

I think most good copywriters do this stuff... but I don't think it's NLP. NLP is neuro-linguistic programming... using words to "re-program" the brain.

When you write copy you're really just tapping into what desires are already there.

And I disagree with you on the "the customer has already made up his mind to buy" thing. If that was true, everyone would have 100% conversion rates.

-Dan

Hi Aaryn,

A few years ago I came across a branch of NLP called Quantum Linguistics that really interested me. After studying it and applying it to my copy, things really took off for me and my business Contrast Media.

Quantum Linguistics teaches you how to present your sales arguments logically, stringing your target audiences perspectives together until they come to the same conclusion about your product as you do. Its not trickery, mind control or any of that nonsense - its using the right language and the right emotive words to sell honestly and effectively.

If you want a branch of NLP to look into I say go with QL!

Regards,
CG Dewing

I see "NLP" used as a meaningless buzzword so frequently, I'm actually less likely to be interested in a product or technique that claims to include NLP.

People name drop "NLP" as if Richard Bandler had fathered legions of illegitimate children. It's especially annoying when they attach it to copywriting. As Mr. Cohen said, in copywriting it's persuasion, not NLP. NLP relies on sensory modalities: Vision, Auditory, and Kinesthetic. If you write it, it's persuasion. And persuasion is a skill as powerful and effective as NLP when practiced by a master.

Only recently have I been fortunate enough to experience first hand, the substantial conversion increases NLP can provide in your copy.

If you've been frustrated by dismal product sales then you'll not only appreciate the sharp increase in sales NLP provides, you'll also enjoy how simple and fun writing copy becomes ;-)

Seriously though, a really fun technique I've been dabbling with is framing my messages in terms of "Who I was talking with, where I was at, or what I was doing" when I wrote the message or got the story that I'm now sharing...

Another fun one is telling people in an email "As I explained last week (message I want them to get)..." I've been great results using this for scarcity, curiosity, and downright panic in my list.

The dirty trick here is while your readers conscious mind off looking for answers as to whether or not they got the message your speaking of (which they didn't)... Your real message is sinking in with virtually 0 resistance.

Oh and all that killer stuff you've heard about Harlan's NLP in copy course is absolutely true... Except for one thing.

It's even better than the hype. Seriously though.

Guys...I honestly suck at technical copy...language, flow, presentation.

I SUCK!

"NLP" is the only stuff I use in my copy. I understand fundamental human psychology.

I take pretty much the same approach as AwesomePossum. I just write copy based on an understanding of human psychology. I'm aware of NLP but wouldn't really care whether anyone called it that, subconscious persuasion, or simply selling. Sales is sales. It's all about psychology from top to bottom anyway.

That's not to say I'm unwilling to study NLP or anything else. Quite the opposite. I'll look at anything that might provide some new insights. I'm just saying that there's already a foundation of psychological understanding in place for me, and without that I wouldn't even be offering to work for people.

Why did I take time to call you out?

Because you're presenting your opinion as fact. And as a guy who pays his bills based on the copy he writes, I think it's dangerously incorrect.

There have been a lot of people come and go on this forum who say they earn a lot of money in a short time frame. Most of them do exactly what you're doing then vanish, never to be heard from again.

My point isn't to belittle you. It's to point out to impressionable newbies reading this thread that, based on what you're writing, I don't think you are who you say you are.

I could be wrong, of course. But there's a lot of factors that set off my BS detector in your post, and I don't want someone to add months onto their learning curve because they followed bad advice.

-Dan

Right....then I think we have different definitions of NLP.

Neuro Linguistic Programming to me is how our Neurons are structured and how we think and operate as humans....it's the same exact thing as human psychology.

Anything that's psychological is NLP to me...because influence happens at a subconscious level. People don't understand how they work because it's their realities, it's pretty simple.


It doesn't do any good to talk to someone when they challenge the experience I've had with it...I started out this discussion presenting a few strategies or methodologies to hopefully get a talk started on the subject...not defending it....when I was new to Warrior I got involved with arguments defending my viewpoints and they always led nowhere...I've wised up...some people are willing to have a talk without completely trying to discredit the other person....if you feel you have to completely say...ya this is BS and I've seen it before...why would I try to defend myself?

If I'm stuck defending my position all the time then I'll never have room to grow...yes you're right...critical discussions are incredibly beneficial...I have them with my girl all the time..probably too much...but I'm not a fan of having to defend myself.



Dissection to me is: To go through a product....take notes on the product...and to completely mess with it and tweak it different ways to see how it fits with other business models and methodologies...to combine and twist.

Dissection is taking different, seperate pieces and put them together into one fluent system.


And ok, we'll just call my income void because my track record's too hypy for you. I'm genuinely cool with that.

I mean...I just don't see how you can't talk about theory...everyone has a personality...if I showed exactly how I did my things people would just try to copy it and not understand what goes wrong when it does....

Both concepts are important...theory & implementation(live testing/experimenting).

The problem I'm left with when wanting to start a thread is to either talk about theory or present my background and direct sales and what I did...obviously you'd have a problem with that too.

Honestly...I'm not sure how to rebuttal fundamental psychology. Either you understand it or you completely ignore it...how else can I say "We like to cheat out other people and when we do, it's incredibly hard not to buy?" I mean...I just don't know how to do it...how else can I say "When there's something rare, people have a burning desire for it?"...I mean hundreds of wars were started over this in our history. People are naturally competitive so if you give them a unique edge to an incredibly valuable resource how does that not produce buying?

You never once said I don't believe in NLP...you said....you're BS and I don't believe you are who you say you are....how else am I suppose to rebuttal this? That wasn't a critical discussion over NLP...not in the slightest bit Dan. I love to talk to other people about new viewpoints....but I hate all this nonsense that goes on in between it.


You're talking yourself up an awful lot.

That sets my BS meter off the charts.

Great thing about an internet forum - anyone can *say* they're making whatever they want.

You're saying a lot of stuff professionals responsible for millions (myself included) are disagreeing with... and not just in this thread.

None of that is proof positive you're not who you say you are.

But it certainly is making me think twice...

-Dan



That is why I didn't want to talk to you. It had nothing to do with "theory being challenged"

Aaryn

And Dan...these aren't my theories fyi...just the millionaire I study.

NLP: Neuro Linguistic Programming

Neurons are the pathways inside of our brain that determine how we think, feel and act. It's how we see our world(everyone's different..it's called personality.)

It turns out that we have survival ingrained in us still and survival in itself is the #1 sales strategy.

This is something I'll say without defending because I don't want to pick up another "critical conversation"...all I'll say is it's kind of the reason we're in a recession and our financial system in America is set up to completely abuse the way we think and act.

You can pick up a book and look at how to link that to marketing if you'd like...if not let's just call it unstable, vague theory. I'm 100% cool with that..I was just giving out a suggestion that's all.

NLP is not fundamental psychology.

You're talking about persuasion like it's NLP... it's not.

NLP deals with subconscious habits... and how to get around those to break addiction and bad habits.

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the purposes of disclosure, I think a LOT of the NLP stuff around is crap, or just a slightly different take on conventional psychology.

But that's a story for another time.

If you use established words you have to use them in their established context with their established meaning, or else you'll confuse a lot of people.

On to the whole belief issue... try and look at it from someone else's point of view.

You walk into a forum... saying you want to launch a WSO... that you make six figures in seven months (a very rare phenomonon, and massive congrats)... and make insane arguments like "everyone who lands on your salespage wants to buy".

(I THINK what you meant was "I assume they're all buyers, because I don't care about the people who aren't". That's a wise position to take... but it's very different.)

Now, on a forum where every week we have tons of people pretending they walk the walk when they don't... can you see why myself (and others) are suspicious?

For clarity, I'm not saying you're not why you say you are. I'm just saying that I have no reason to believe you are, and I'm cautioning people to take the same stance in case they're planning on blindly following your advice.

In short, I'm on the fence, and I'm advising the newbies (who don't yet have the ability to separate the truth from fiction) to do the same until more information comes to light.

You don't know me, so you probably think I'm out to get you, or that I don't like you... and it's not like that.

I have nothing against you personally. But you did present some wild claims, and I'm too curious a person to not dig for more info.

-Dan

I heard a story about a TV infomercial that used what in NLP is called a "presupposition" - of which there are at least 14 types.

At the end of the infomercial, the infomercial originally said:

"Call now! Operators are standing by!"

Then they changed it to:

"If the phone lines are too busy, please call again later!!!"

The second closing supposedly sold several hundred percent more items than the first one. Because it presupposed - indirectly assumed to be true - what Cialdini calls "social proof", which is the tendency for people to do something because others are doing it too.

IMO, some NLP techniques work for copywriting while other NLP techniques don't. Examples of presuppositions:

"Are you going to pay for this using paypal or credit card?"
"What is the second thing that you will be delighted about once you have bought Market Samurai?"
"Would you like to upgrade right away?"

Other NLP techniques don't work. For example, embedding a command like "By now you should know what this product can do for you." or "By now you should be excited about this." would just make you look stupid while insulting the intelligence of the buyer.

Nah, don't stop. I'm getting insights just from this argument. Good stuff. So many sharp people around here, I'm glad I joined.

Awe...thanks Rick. I really appreciate that post.

1. I'm by no means an expert at NLP : p I just love psychology.

2. This is starting to clear things up actually....believe it or not I have a lot of passion and emotion in business...I can't even describe to you how much I enjoy waking up every morning and learning something new.

I actually have a business partner and I'm already mentoring 2 people...all 3 of them love the passion I have. I seriously love this game. It's an incredible thing and I genuinely enjoy waking up everyday...it's soo repetitive but I've struggled to pull myself out of bed every weekday for the past 10 years. I had no drive...no reason to wake up and no reason to go to school....I felt dead inside because I was forced to live a life where I woke up, ate breakfast, then sat in a chair all day learning about adjetives and how to graph y=3X + B....hmmmmm....k, this wasn't a good picture painting : p


My point is I love mentoring people who are looking for a better life. It's incredible...all my passion is locked up there so every time I make a new video or write an ebook it's over material that's fresh in my mind. I'm ecstatic when there's a new perspective in my head but outside of that I'm relatively calm ; )



And about the whole copy...I totally suck at it. Yet I still make good money from typing my own sales letter....how I do it? I dunno...I think I can bust out my copy in a day because my sales pitch always starts when I make a product...I make products that people have a huge problem that they don't really know about...then I just vividly paint the picture...really passionately.

It's a hard thing for me to explain...it only comes out of me in certain situations really. When I'm out with friends having fun, kickin it with my girl, or when I'm talking to my customers(which are newbies to online business)...I just feel them and I understand them...I get that their life sucks di*k and that they want a way out and I feel them...I let them know that I do and I let them know I've been there....and most of all I let them know how great building your own online business can be....being able to work in a place you enjoy doing. There's seriously a great niche for everyone so anyone can have fun with online business....and honestly if I got into the lifestyle right now I'd type forever actually ; ). It's just something I understand on a deep level.

With that I make products that will make or break any online business and I let them know exactly why it's important, who the product is for, exactly what to do(step by step exercises) and how to implement my product into their life.

I've got a lot of the learning models down and I try to combine success and energy efficiency into the products....that way they're always motivated and ready to do the next thing...I always TRY to link back every activity to the thing that hit's their passion...like their hot buttons...just not in words, in ideas....

All of this goes into my products and I blend it together so by the time I write my copy I spend one day preparing....then I bust out the copy in 3 or 4 hours...sometimes it happens in chunks. I just get a huge inspiration for the sales page so I bust it out then...it's something that can't be replicated outside the moment you know?



With that said...I think that theory and specifics are two different sports. Completely different.

But my thought is that theory creates the specifics so I'm only concerned about theory until I implement...this whole post was about theory and that's the frame I set it up as....once I set up a frame I live inside of it >.<

I love specifics but it's something I can't talk about here. How do you talk about NLP specifically you know? I just can't do it lol

So was kind of in a objective mode because that's what you have to do with theory...if your too passionate about your ideas you'll never grow as a person BUT like you said you have to have passion and love what your talking about....the way I separate it is through switching my...uhhh...I dunno. I call them frames but uhh...state of mind. Way of thinking patterns, etc.

Rick I'm curious...

I have no clue where any of this came from but

In your copy do use use the 5 personality types?
I think it's: people, places, things, learning...I always forget this last one...obviously I'm lacking in it : p...I don't use it....like do you use your niche to target in the personalities of your customers?

I'm really fond of the whole 4 learning styles:

1. Why are we doing this?, 2. How does this work?(Theoretical), 3. How do I use it?(How to..specifics. Step by step), and 4. what if I implement it?(why and when do I use it...how do I plug it in)

I'm sure this is shocking but I use #1 to anchor into #2 & #4...then I combine them into a step by step process for #3.

When I combine that with me understanding my customer's fears and desires...what their life is like right now and what they want...seriously, I can feel them here...I was stuck in this situation for over a year trying to find a way out...I finally found business.....right so when I combine all of this together with painting the picture of how valuable this actually is and how important the product is to them DIRECTLY changing their lives....THEN I COMBINE THAT WITH SCARCITY....

That's how I write my sales pages....

Do you have any advice? How do you develop your sales letters?

I beyond suck technically though. Like I went through half of a Yanik product and half a John Carlton...when I remember to use them, I'm pretty good but other than that...I completely wing it.

All I'm saying is it works for me...doesn't mean it has to work for anyone else. I was just giving my opinion asking if anyone wanted to talk about "NLP" copy...I shoulda posted Psychology or persuasion thread...that would of been a lot better.

I was just getting pissed cuz I had to defend something when all I wanted to do was talk about it.


But NLP is such a...broad perspective. You can't talk about it specifically...it just doesn't work you know? Being narrow will get you into trouble and create you to get stuck into patterns of thinking...obviously thinking theoretically does too but that's outside of this situation...maybe ; ) Probably not.

And Rick..you stopped offending me when you took the time to PM me buddy. I sincerely appreciate your help.

Cool...no I definitely agree.

I've been trying to use the whole anchor my customer's desire to secure a fear in my copy you know?

My market is kinda specific...not ultra but kinda. I'm more relying on numbers than conversion rates. Sounds weird but I teach how to start an online business...more specifically how to quit your job through online business. It's just...I feel there's so much emotional drive there that it's ok not to be ultra specific about things...of course I'm going to ultra niche as my company grows...but for now, it's a great way to build a business fast.

As for the fear panic thing....my partner is launching our product right now and for the copy I used our unstable economy(obviously not in those word : p) to push the prospects out of their comfort zone...again, if prospects are cruising around our niche then they want a solution to their problem...then I backed it up with one-on-one support with a guy who's spent $50,000 on IMing education and has spent thousands of hours in trial and error...I tried to paint a picture of how IMing lead to a happier and healthier lifestyle and let them know they had everything they needed(not by sayin...we're showing you everything...step by step...week by week layout) to buy our coaching program. On top of it, we're only releasing 200 copies & once. Like I said before...I can relate with "newbies" really well right now because I spent the past 3 years in my life trying to make a living unconventionally so I feel and understand what they're situation is like because it's so fresh in my mind....and of course I wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't believe in my partner's products ; )....all I'm saying is when a guy's made a living off IMing for 3 years and he's creating a product about every successful he's learned, I feel confident with making my customers uncomfortable and selling to them persuasively.



Up till this point the products came from my partner but I feel I'm at a point where I can teach what I'm learning as I apply it to my own business models, backtest it(experiments), then revise & release my products. Plus..I only learn from the best anyways...duh : p

The coolest part is that I'm confident my products are more valuable than 99% of the other ones I've seen...I think it's because I can't paint a picture rather than only give out ways to make money.(I do that too though)...I'm thinking all of that might help my copy too.


Guys and girls want different things in relationships?...ohhhh that explains why I'm so bad at keeping girls ; )