when to hire a copywriter - when to do it yourself

That right there is a priceless piece of info.

So many people are wasting countless hours chasing a dream -- a tiny sliver of a market... a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche... or even a great market that they simply can't get any decent penetration in.

If they took 5 minutes to run the numbers and work out their hourly rate of return they'd realize they're better off (financially at least) working at McDonalds.

If the ROI from a top-converting salesletter still wouldn't give you a decent ROI on the letter itself then your project is basically a waste of time.

Harsh? Maybe. But it's the truth.

Think BIG. You might be surprised... it's often just as easy (if not easier) to reach BIG goals than small ones.

I don't think any copywriter would ever guarantee a certain conversion rate. You'd have to be psychic to know for sure how well a sales letter will convert.

It depends on the product, how good it is, how well the seller is targeting the right audience, the popularity of a certain type of product or service at the particular time the product goes up for sale, etc.

In short, if you can predict how well your sales letter will convert, you may have a great career ahead of you as a psychic. ;-)

Janet

Good thread, but so much is missing. What a real copywriter does goes miles beyond sifting through junkmail and hand-copying ads. Not out to demean your assessment, Loren, but I think it's severely lacking. The things you mentioned are beginner's steps.

The true value of a copywriter is much closer to what Judy pointed out - helping you discover the hidden value in your product, different markets to sell to, and unique hooks for enticing prospects that few others could discover - to name a few. (I think that's what you were driving at, but I felt the need to clarify)

And as far as basing price on an hourly rate, I've never done that and don't know any copywriter who does. I can't imagine any proven writer being cool with $50 an hour. That's grossly undervaluing your service and talent. Establishing yourself as a low dollar scribe is sure to keep you there for a long, long time.

Much better to grow your confidence writing copy for your own affiliate pages, than to work cheap and get good on your client's dime. But, hey, don't stop on my account... I've made a nice side business out of fixing $97 sales letters.

Whoa... Kevin's a generous contributor! He's on no high horse. He finds himself far too busy fixing bad letters to think otherwise.

The plain fact is that there isn't 1 reputable copywriter who I've ever heard of, who charges hourly. Not one. I've got copywriters I've taught to write. They start their careers at $3,000 per sales letter. And they earn every penny.

And there are 2 big reasons you shouldn't hire any copywriter who charges almost nothing for his services.

1. You get what you pay for.
2. If the cheap writer you hire can't effectively sell himself and the value he brings to the client, how can you expect him to effectively sell your product? And this has nothing to do with being on a high horse.

I don't know you, Malibu. But if you're even half-way decent as a copywriter you have value. Don't sell yourself or anyone else, short. If you're not halfway decent, then quite frankly you don't deserve any pay at all.

What you mean is you don't want to see how it moves the discussion forward. What? Were my kid gloves not soft enough? I gave you the benefit of doubt that you were using generalities... you could have just left it at that.

Wow, bro. Are we reading the same words here? I never mentioned the people who buy $97 sales letters - I know what problem they're looking to solve, and I don't blame them for rolling the dice. Sometimes it even works out.

I'm addressing freelancers who are proud to work cheap "while they learn." Sorry, there are too many simple ways to test your copy chops than to charge clients for it. If you really want to be a freelancer, at the very least get a mentor to guide your skills and show you the ropes. If you plan to have any sort of career it's a wise investment. Going after clients before you're ready risks your reputation, and adversely effects the entire industry by watering down the talent pool.

That's my only intention... that and self-preservation. You can take it as honest, hard-earned advice, or you can continue looking for ways to get offended. But, most Mass guys I know (I'm one myself) can handle tough love pretty well.

Best,
Kevin

I like Peter a lot, reading his books got me fired up about writing for a living and got me started. But unless I'm mistaken, his books don't talk about direct response at all; he's telling people how to do freelance writing for corporations and small businesses -- flyers, white papers, brochure copy, etc. That's what he says to charge $50/hr for.

And we shouldn't scoff at that -- for someone who works in a job they hate that maybe pays much less than that, $50 an hour working for yourself sounds like a great place to start. But direct response copywriters work differently -- I think we're comparing apples and oranges.

Word.

I've seen some stuff come through my mailbox from local small bizs that were okay, at best. But since no one else in their industry was doing anything at all, you can be sure they stood out.

So I'm willing to bet that, even if these weren't pieces for my swipe file, these guys got conversions.

Some of these businesses are mom-and-pop shops that don't want necessarily want to become huge enterprises. They just want a steady stream of business year-round.

As a beginning copywriter, if you can find a business that falls in this category, and you can make contact with their prospects in clear, understandable language, you can help them. It's a win/win proposition for both of you.

However, I am vehemently against "hourly". If I have chops, my clients should only care about the results, whether it takes me 5 minutes or 50 hours to write their copy.

OTOH, if I'm still earning my chops, my client should NEVER pay for my learning time. Charge a fair, firm, flat fee and keep your learning curve to yourself.

Malibu... seriously this is your mindset problem. 3K isn't big bucks. Not even close. 30K for a sales letter... that's big. $40K plus a royalty... that's big.

I agree specializing can be great for the client and for the writer. And writing for yourself is even better! And... I contend... a $1,000 sales letter that brings in $83 in sales is not "reasonable." Especially when spending a little more can bring in $8300... 83,000... or even $830,000.

And I encourage the same thing. I encourage writers to continue to learn... continue to get better... and continue to justify their rates. I would encourage what you're doing too. I think however there needs to be a degree of knowledge in order to make that situation valuable to anyone.

Wow... you might want to get the chip off your shoulder. I'm not big on coaching neophytes. My students were all professional copywriters when they came to me. Some were even 6 figure copywriters before I even met them.

I won't list my coaching fees here because frankly it's cheap... and more importantly this isn't the place for it. This was never about my coaching. I know guys who earn thousands per letter on their first letter.

It's all about sales. If you can't sell yourself... you can't sell product.

(That said, let me say I'm sorry to hear what the economy has done to your business. If you want a half hour consult on the phone with me I'll give it to you free. Maybe we can get some money coming back into your business.)

Funny, I wanted to write a post and essentially say what Brian did. I'm familiar with Kevin and Vin from Michel Fortin's Copywriter's Board, where they both contribute a lot of value. They are adding to this conversation and so is Loren and everyone else here.

As Brian said, some things said are being taken the wrong way and are not meant to be offensive.

In fact, aspiring copywriters and well as internet marketers who need copywriters could learn a lot from the varied opinions on threads like this.

Janet

Interesting thread. I can see both sides of the argument and both have some merit. The thing is, it will always boil down to two things:

1. What value you deliver for your clients
2. How well can you sell your services

The value to your clients can be much more than just writing copy. As Kevin and Judy mentioned, it can be different opportunities the client could pursue that they hadn't considered. It can also be to warn clients of potential pitfalls that they hadn't considered.

Case in point: I spent a half hour on the phone this morning with a new prospective client who is looking for copywriting and marketing help. He has a great idea for a print newsletter for a specific niche. The problem is, he was going to offer it for free and try to make money on the back end. And that freebie was going to run him about $3K/month in fulfillment costs.

Boy was he excited when I suggested some other options that wouldn't burn a hole in his bank account. We closed the call with this person asking me to give him quotes for two additional projects besides the one we discussed on the call.

My fee will be less important to this client because I've demonstrated the value I can deliver to his business. Heck, one idea I gave him just saved him from making a $3k/month mistake. Imagine what I'll share with him when he's a paying client.

As for quoting hourly vs. non-hourly, I'll defer to Clayton Makepeace who recommends quoting by the PROJECT and figuring out your project price based on your estimated time plus factoring in additional time for the unexpected (i.e. you need 15 pages of copy to describe the product, not 12 pages).

Quoting for a standard item like 5 autoresponder emails or a sales letter from scratch is easy -- that can just be a flat fee.

But what do you do when you get an unusual request like this one I just did: 8 AR emails, squeeze page, and sales letter. You gotta figure out how much time you need for the project... come up with a project price... and then quote by the project.

Quoting by the project will save your bacon if you offer sales letter rewrites for clients. A flat fee will get great if you're rewriting a 2 page sales letter. It's gonna hammer you if the sales letter turns out to be 30 pages.

As for coaching...it's an investment in your business and your business skills. I don't know anything about Vin's coaching but I know of several copywriters who speak highly of Vin's help, so it must work.

As a copywriter, it doesn't take long to recoup your investment in yourself, especially if you are able to command higher fees.

For example, John Carlton has a new coaching program which closes soon. Here's a non-aff link to it: John Carlton - Marketing Rebel - John Carlton - Simple Writing System

John is delivering a lot of great content for the $2K price tag. John offers a payment plan too so it's easily to swallow for the cash-challenged or the cheapskates like me who prefer interest-free payment plans.

More importantly, you get access to additional help from some great copywriters besides John.

I signed up because it's an investment in my business skills. Over time, that investment will pay off for me in higher fees, more repeat clients, etc. etc.

Because as a copywriter, you only need to pick up one new "trick" that you put to use to recoup your investment over time. Maybe it's a better way to write compelling bullets. Or to come up with a great hook in half of your usual time. Doesn't matter... if you take what you learn and use, you will recoup your investment many fold.

My 3 cents,

Mike

Jaqueline,

Forgive me for contradicting you, but copywriting is very different from simply writing well.

You really need to think through every aspect of your copy to be sure that it's effective, that you're appropriately targeting your audience, that you've got a fantastic headline, that you're getting to the reader's emotions, that you're emphasizing benefits, that you know the difference between features and benefits, etc.

That's why there are so many whole books written on copywriting - they're not just on how to write well. They're about how to persuade readers to open their wallets or click on a PayPal button.

I've been a good writer all my life, but I'll admit, I've only been a good copywriter for a few years. It's taken a lot of learning, practice, and discipline.

Janet

Hi Tian,

First, I rarely start with a phone consult. It's has to be a progression from more than one email conversation. Otherwise you waste a lot of time on the phone with tire kickers and not serious prospects.

This particular client got to phone consult faster because they were a referral from one of my most loyal clients and that client vouched for their level of seriousness and ability to pay my usually quoted rates.

Since it was a referral, there was little selling that I needed to do. My client had already sold him on my skills by pointing out how much I had helped him.

If it was a new prospect that wasn't a referral, I still wouldn't worry about selling my services. If you present enough benefits on how you can help someone, they will close themselves on hiring you.

I select prospective clients by:

1) The type of project/niche. There are niches/projects I don't have an interest in working with, so I don't.

2) The prospect's willingness to listen to and implement my professional advice. If they are going to half-azz their project, I don't want to work with them. Chances are, they'd screw up something on their end like sending non-targeted prospects to the sales letter and then blame me for a poor result.

I have to feel they are a team player and looking to join forces with me. I don't want to feel that I'm just a hired typist who is supposed to wave a wand and create a magical letter for them.

3) I deal with clients who are straight shooters like me when it comes to money. I deliver my end of the project on time. My fee is what I quote and my policies are clear-cut with no room for misinterpretation. For example, I won't "loan" the final sales letter to a client so they can go make the remaining money they owe me. They get the screen shot of it until they've paid in full.

I had a client once "forget" to sign the check when he hired me for a project. You can imagine his surprise when I called him to mention his oversight and that I wasn't booking his project onto my schedule until I had a signed check from him and it had cleared the bank. He sent me a new check immediately and has made it a point to pre-pay in full (his idea, not my mine)ever since.

Some of my clients are fairly big named folks in their industry. They don't like people knowing who writes their copy for them and I honor their wishes. They hire me regularly and pay on time so I have no reason to be upset about being their "secret weapon".

I run my copywriting business like a business so it tends to attract more like-minded business folks as clients.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Okay, first a disclaimer before I answer TianYan's question. I am sharing my professional opinions here which is done to help other Warriors. I'm not looking to make a buck off this information but I don't want someone to make money off of my kindness either.

Therefore, my comments in this thread may not be used in someone's paid product without my express written permission.

Okay, back on topic.

Guarantee will depend on how much risk you're willing to take on. You could do any of the following:

* Offer a full money back guarantee
* Refund or not collect part of your fee
* Rewrite it as many times as it takes to work. Be careful with this option as the copy isn't the only factor with conversion rates.
* Make part/all of your fee a royalty. The better the copy converts, the more you make. If your copy bombs, you make little or no money.

Hope that helps,

Mike