Half of what I hear people say about copy is dead wrong...

59 replies
Hello to my best buds!

So, I was just reading some random threads on the forums (both in the copywriting forum and just around the other sections) and some of the stuff I see (especially relating to copy) is dead wrong half the time (and by half I mean "pretty much always").

There is one thing that just stood out to me and I want to clarify it for everyone who is getting started with direct mail or who has been doing it but wants to boost their conversion rates.

I always hear people say...

"People sort their mail over their trashcan!"

I have no idea who started the whole "Oh yah, people throw almost all their mail in to the trashcan before opening it!" rumor, but it is definitely not true.

There is only one type of mail I throw away pretty much immediately-- Credit card advertisements.... but I always open them up before to make sure I get my personal information out of there, etc. It gets opened.

The amount of mail I throw away without opening is PRETTY SMALL.


PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE OPENS ALL OF THEIR MAIL.


I have never heard a single person say:

"Oh, this letter has the address printed on it instead of being hand-written... Screw opening it-- I'm throwing it straight in the trash!"

or

"Oh... this letter does not have a stamp? It has a printed insigna? It must not be important-- IN THE TRASH IT GOES!"

I see people go to great lengths to make sure that their letter isn't "thrown away before getting opened."

Funny thing is, in doing that, they normally make their envelopes look 10X more like advertisements and that stigma falls in to their mind while they are skimming your letter to see what it is about.

I have seen envelopes COVERED in bright red copy that says "IMPORTANT" or "FIRST CLASS" or "CONFIDENTIAL!" I have seen stupid crap stuffed in envelopes. I have seen people print "handwritten" addresses on the letters in "blue ink." Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on.

Doing things like that makes the person read your actual pitch with distain. They know it is a pitch the second they read the headline and they feel angry that you said it was "Important" or "confidential." They get pissed off that you put a stupid pen or gnome or something in the envelope to get their attention and make them feel like they were getting something worthwhile.

Fun fact-- Your envelope was 99.99% sure to get opened, but in pulling the stupid stunts you did to "make sure it wasn't thrown away without being opened," all you did was make the reader feel like you "lied" to them. You lost their trust before they even read your letter.

You made them expect something important, something personal, something useful, and then you showed your "true colors" as someone who was just trying to sell them something. Now they are peeved and will read everything else you wrote (or rather, SKIM everything else you wrote) while eating scoops of salt.

Just a fun thought.

Best,
M&M
#copy #dead #half #hear #people #wrong
  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    No offense, but I completely disagree. Not only does every member of my family sort their mail over a trash can, every manager at every restaurant I've ever worked at does the same thing.

    If what you were saying was true and every piece of mail was opened, then copywriters and direct mail marketers wouldn't use 'bumpy mail' to ensure good open rates. Even at $.05 each, that adds up when you're sending 50,000. When I personally marketed restaurant owners, I got no response until I put something in the envelope to make sure they were curious.

    Just my pi cents. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    There is a difference between GOOD lumpy mail and sticking a gnome in the envelope and saying "Well, now that I have your attention, here is my sales pitch!"

    Putting something lumpy in your letter might have gotten a few managers to say "eh, whatever, ill contact this guy..." but I will be willing to bet if you had re-written your letter instead (and obviously, it was "effectively written") you would have gotten a better response.

    Nobody in their right mind would throw away a white envelope from someone they do not know that is addressed to them personally. It is risky as hell since you don't know what it is. Maybe it is someone requesting info to buy something from you, maybe it is a long lost acquaintance, etc.

    What people DO open with a MAJOR grain of salt is a letter that has "FIRST CLASS-- OPEN IMMEDIATELY-- CONFIDENTIAL-- IMPORTANT!!!!!" all over it.

    What pisses people off is getting a thick envelope in the mail with a lump in it and a fake handwritten font so at first glance it looks like it is from a friend, and then finding a poorly written sales letter in it. They feel cheated.

    Like I said, I am not arguing that maybe you will get a few responses (relatively speaking) when you put some random crap in your envelope-- however, you can get a MUCH better response with a properly written letter.

    People use lumpy mail and the like as a substitute for good copy-- it is like a shoddy bandaid.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    You're better at copywriting than I am (not being sarcastic, I can just tell), so let me explain what I did just so I can get your take on it. I wrote a one page sales letter explaining how my marketing services could get them more business. The headline was 'are you tired of having cobwebs on your tables every weekday?' and the 'lump' was a plastic spider. Work or stupid? Like I said, I got a response.
    But I've never been one to put pride about learning, so if you have suggestions have at it .
    By the way, I agree with most of what you said. I've been involved in real estate for 5 years, and the sheer stupidity of their mail marketing suggestions astound me.
    'Use only a white envelope with no window, hand write everything, use only their first name, black ink only, dont use a liberty bell stamp....' it goes on forever. They never mention the letter, which is 3 sentences about how they buy houses. Just the envelope. *sigh*
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    Hey Sean,

    Tone can't really be transferred over the forums, so imagine this all with a "helpful, totally cool" tone-- not an obnoxious one.

    Remember that the second they read your headline, they decide whether they want to keep reading or toss your letter.

    That is the first problem with your letter. The second they read the headline they know 1) What the spider means and 2) That you are going to be pitching them something related to their business.

    The letter is no longer "personal" and does not build curiosity... all your cards are on the table. Plus, the reader can just say "I have enough business... screw you for saying otherwise... Jerk."

    Nobody likes being told they suck. Nobody likes admitting it, either.

    You should mention something about the spider down your letter, and start the letter on a note that builds some curiosity. Then, have every paragraph end on something that builds more curiosity so they keep reading.

    Only after they are totally hooked should you explain the spider. That way, you know that they will keep reading.

    I know this will shock a good deal of people, but I have NEVER agreed with the "I bet you're wondering why I included a ________... Well, two reasons! One, to get your attention, and two, to make a point!" pitch right at the beginning.

    I don't agree with it for the same reasons... ALL your cards are on the table the second you do that. The reader will feel they "know enough" to make a decision as to whether or not to keep reading your letter. That's not good.

    In fact, I would suggest NO headline for letters like that. Write them like "personal letters" to the owner.

    Start off with something that builds a great deal of curiosity, then mention the spider later on through a story... Something like:

    "Any that's when I realized that Bob was fed up with having COBWEBS all over on his table everyday! His restaurant had everything it needed to be a "hotspot"... he just needed help getting others to realize it!"

    Granted, it is 1:20 AM over here and I am half asleep, so this isn't "that great"... but I think you get the point.

    The reader won't get defensive when he reads that anymore. You aren't calling him out, you are helping him relate to your buddy Bob (who, surprise surprise, you managed to help out!). You are making HIM come to the decision that he is in the same situation himself... He will think that he is the one who is "in control,"" when in fact you are.

    I'm pretty sure I am rambling now, like I said it is pretty late, but that should put you in the right mindset. I'll re-read it tomorrow morning and see if I can make it more succinct, haha.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hugh Thyer
      People open all their mail, unless it's obviously something they dont want.

      But when I open mine, there's the pile for the bin and the pile to keep. The keep pile is usually the smaller pile.

      So I don't think the expression should be 'sort their mail over the trash can' but 'open their mail over the trash can'.

      By alerting people to the fact your letter is (probably) an advertisement, they are predisposed to chucking it out. Nobody likes being advertised to (except us DM folk perhaps) so their defenses are up already.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Hi MouseandMice,

    The problem is not that the tactics don't work. THEY DO.

    The challenge is with congruency. All the parts and pieces have to line up and integrate. Otherwise there's an integrity problem with the campaign.

    And that's a buzz kill.

    For instance: If you say something's "Confidential", it had better be confidential.

    For example, years ago I made an offer to my newsletter list. I used "Confidential" on the envelope and I meant it. It was one of the golden threads carried throughout.

    Having congruency requires some strategic thought. It's not just a bunch of tactics thrown against the wall to see what sticks.

    - Rick Duris

    PS:


    Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post


    I always hear people say...

    "People sort their mail over their trashcan!"

    I have no idea who started the whole "Oh yah, people throw almost all their mail in to the trashcan before opening it!" rumor, but it is definitely not true.
    It would be wise on your part to find out who invented the "A Pile, B Pile" distinction. Go ahead and google it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Fact of the matter is, people confuse an open rate with their RESPONSE RATE.

      Actually they don't confuse it-- they don't want to admit it that it was their LETTER that was horrible.

      "Oh, I only got one call out of the 300 letters I sent out? Oh, no guys, the problem is that 275 of those guys just threw my letter away without opening it... I am actually a VERY good copywriter-- they just never read the letter!"

      And in regards to if I "know what I say," I am pretty sure I do. I know almost all majority of the "big name copywriters," and a few of the biggest names mentored me personally when I was first starting out-- That was one of the perks of being 15 years old in an industry full of adults, I stood out.

      Those big names are the reason I am where I am now.
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  • Profile picture of the author metabinltd
    Chris Cardell pulled a stunt in the uk of a fake newspaper clipping with a 'hand-written' post-it note and envelope writing. I got one through the post myself..

    He got banned from ever sending another letter like that again by the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) because it was deceptive - it also had a picture of him with Duncan Bannatyne, and he said that he doesn't have anything to do with the man.

    How not to gain credibility.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

    Hello to my best buds!

    So, I was just reading some random threads on the forums (both in the copywriting forum and just around the other sections) and some of the stuff I see (especially relating to copy) is dead wrong half the time (and by half I mean "pretty much always").
    I agree. The big problem is determining which half.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE OPENS ALL OF THEIR MAIL.
      Hmm, wouldn't it be nice if people put forward some evidence instead of just personal observation on themselves and a few other people?

      For what it's worth, I open very little of my mail, I think less than 30% of it.

      But that isn't worth much as I am only one person.

      If anyone knows of studies done on this, it would rescue this thread from irrelevance.

      Marcia Yudkin
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I agree. The big problem is determining which half.

      -Ray Edwards
      If I knew either half I'd be happy.
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    So, I was just reading some random threads on the forums (both in the copywriting forum and just around the other sections) and some of the stuff I see (especially relating to copy) is dead wrong half the time (and by half I mean "pretty much always").
    Fun fact-- Your envelope was 99.99% sure to get opened, but in pulling the stupid stunts you did to "make sure it wasn't thrown away without being opened," all you did was make the reader feel like you "lied" to them. You lost their trust before they even read your letter.
    Is there a chance you just made this "fun fact" up... where's the tests that show a 99.9% open rate in the mail?

    Colm
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

    Hello to my best buds!

    So, I was just reading some random threads on the forums (both in the copywriting forum and just around the other sections) and some of the stuff I see (especially relating to copy) is dead wrong half the time (and by half I mean "pretty much always").

    There is one thing that just stood out to me and I want to clarify it for everyone who is getting started with direct mail or who has been doing it but wants to boost their conversion rates.

    I always hear people say...

    "People sort their mail over their trashcan!"

    I have no idea who started the whole "Oh yah, people throw almost all their mail in to the trashcan before opening it!" rumor, but it is definitely not true.

    There is only one type of mail I throw away pretty much immediately-- Credit card advertisements.... but I always open them up before to make sure I get my personal information out of there, etc. It gets opened.

    The amount of mail I throw away without opening is PRETTY SMALL.


    PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE OPENS ALL OF THEIR MAIL.


    I have never heard a single person say:

    "Oh, this letter has the address printed on it instead of being hand-written... Screw opening it-- I'm throwing it straight in the trash!"

    or

    "Oh... this letter does not have a stamp? It has a printed insigna? It must not be important-- IN THE TRASH IT GOES!"

    I see people go to great lengths to make sure that their letter isn't "thrown away before getting opened."

    Funny thing is, in doing that, they normally make their envelopes look 10X more like advertisements and that stigma falls in to their mind while they are skimming your letter to see what it is about.

    I have seen envelopes COVERED in bright red copy that says "IMPORTANT" or "FIRST CLASS" or "CONFIDENTIAL!" I have seen stupid crap stuffed in envelopes. I have seen people print "handwritten" addresses on the letters in "blue ink." Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on.

    Doing things like that makes the person read your actual pitch with distain. They know it is a pitch the second they read the headline and they feel angry that you said it was "Important" or "confidential." They get pissed off that you put a stupid pen or gnome or something in the envelope to get their attention and make them feel like they were getting something worthwhile.

    Fun fact-- Your envelope was 99.99% sure to get opened, but in pulling the stupid stunts you did to "make sure it wasn't thrown away without being opened," all you did was make the reader feel like you "lied" to them. You lost their trust before they even read your letter.

    You made them expect something important, something personal, something useful, and then you showed your "true colors" as someone who was just trying to sell them something. Now they are peeved and will read everything else you wrote (or rather, SKIM everything else you wrote) while eating scoops of salt.

    Just a fun thought.

    Best,
    M&M
    Then you obviously haven't been to my house. Not only do I shoot direct mail junk straight in the bin without opening it...I also hang up without comment when I get a tele-marketing call. How do I know its one? Easy. There's always a lot of background noise...they take forever to answer ("Hello...hello?...HELL-O!")and they always call at lunch time or early evening - on a landline that's supposed to be unlisted. Trying to flog double-glazing. I used to just say "No thanks - I just ate" before hanging up in their ear. But that just made them ring back.

    BTW - A pile/B pile is from Halbert. The Gary Halbert Letter

    pip pip, tally-ho!

    The Copy Nazi
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Arriving at conclusions and deriving percentages based on the behavior of yourself and perhaps your friends - isn't valid. You need qualifiers to be accurate.

      When I was 20 I opened all my mail. By the time I was 30 I threw about 2/3 of it away unopened and that has continued to this day. That mail ends up in a trash can before I enter the house.

      I've seen two of my neighbors do the same thing. Nothing confidential is stamped "confidential" and "first class" doesn't work with a bulk mail stamp.

      The theme of the thread seems to be "if you promise, you need to deliver on that promise". Some do, some don't.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
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    I'm stylin' too - apartment in the Projects, beat up old Cougar, plenty of worries - livin' da bad life bro!

    The lesson is: if I can't do it, neither can you.

    Oh yeah...I once ran into Frank Kern in a mens room - does that count as "knowing a big name copywriter"?
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    Haha Mal, I didn't say it to sound like an asshole. I am not selling anything nor do I plan on selling anything in the future, so it doesn't affect me one way or another if people listen to what I have to say.

    My point is that with all the effort people put in to their envelope, they should instead put it in to rewriting the letter to get a response. A proper hook, good transitions, a well crafted CTA that actually resonates with the reader.

    Not

    "Dear Jim,

    Are you a business owner that needs more sales? I bet you do! I am really cool-- I am a good marketer.

    Call NOW for a FREE consultation. NO STRINGS AT ALL. JUST CALL. SPACE IS LIMITED.

    Love,
    Me

    PS- Did I mention it is FREE. NO STRINGS. SPACE IS LIMITED.

    PPS- CONFIDENTIAL AND FIRST CLASS.

    PPPS- DO NOT BEND."

    Silly Silly.
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    M&M...

    Fact is the big mailers have done a lot more testing and tracking than you, and they're still using teaser copy on envelopes which is quite telling.

    This notion that everyone opens all their mail is baloney I'm afraid.

    Suppose you're right... then by the same logic subject lines in emails wouldn't matter either... and we could do away with headlines too... and body copy... heck, all we'd need is an order device!

    That would be peachy but the numbers tell a different story entirely.

    Colm
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by colmodwyer View Post

      M&M...

      Fact is the big mailers have done a lot more testing and tracking than you, and they're still using teaser copy on envelopes which is quite telling.

      This notion that everyone opens all their mail is baloney I'm afraid.

      Suppose you're right... then by the same logic subject lines in emails wouldn't matter either... and we could do away with headlines too... and body copy... heck, all we'd need is an order device!

      That would be peachy but the numbers tell a different story entirely.

      Colm
      Colm,

      In general, the larger a company gets, the less testing they do-- the wonders of bureaucracy...

      Actually, your logic regarding emails and copy is quite off. Emails and DM are two VERY different mediums.

      In fact, regarding teaser copy-- every big name copywriter says the same thing I do.

      The mailers I send out consistently get about 80 to 90 percent response if we are looking for a followup response (like calling, etc) and about 65-80 percent if we are looking for a sale at the end.

      Pretty damn good numbers.
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by colmodwyer View Post

      M&M...

      Fact is the big mailers have done a lot more testing and tracking than you, and they're still using teaser copy on envelopes which is quite telling.

      This notion that everyone opens all their mail is baloney I'm afraid.

      Suppose you're right... then by the same logic subject lines in emails wouldn't matter either... and we could do away with headlines too... and body copy... heck, all we'd need is an order device!

      That would be peachy but the numbers tell a different story entirely.

      Colm
      Colm,

      In general, the larger a company gets, the less testing they do-- the wonders of bureaucracy...

      Actually, your logic regarding emails and copy is quite off. Emails and DM are two VERY different mediums.

      In fact, regarding teaser copy-- every big name copywriter says the same thing I do.

      The mailers I send out consistently get about 80 to 90 percent response if we are looking for a followup response (like calling, etc) and about 65-80 percent if we are looking for a sale at the end.

      Pretty damn good numbers... Only disadvantage is that we aren't able to send out 10 million at once; but the ROI is great.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    M&M,

    You're taking your personal observation and trying to turn it into fact.

    Like the "long sales letters don't work" guys.

    I have my stats to back this up - but my belief based on my experience is that most people can tell junk mail from a mile away.

    And if they can tell what it is, they don't open it.

    If something is hand-addressed I'm more likely to open and read it... but that may just be me.

    Sure, having a good letter is important to response rate. But so is the way you present the mail.

    -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author Zentech
    I open about half my mail. Teaser copy on the envelope will usually get me to open it, but I'll usually just skim the letter and throw it away within 30 seconds, since I've already been warned that it's marketing hype.
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    In general, the larger a company gets, the less testing they do-- the wonders of bureaucracy...
    Where are you getting this from? My experience is the exact opposite...

    I've worked for a DM company that turned over about $2m, and I'm working for one now that does about $25m.

    In the mail, it's a lot easier for the bigger company to test more often (and we do every chance we get) because we mail in the hundreds of thousands, as opposed to only ten thousand or so.

    In fact, regarding teaser copy-- every big name copywriter says the same thing I do.
    Again, where are you getting this from?

    We have a few heavy hitters writing for us and generally, the first things to test will be - In no particular order - envelope (teaser), lead and offer.

    Bottom line: you have to test always because few things about what we do is constant... otherwise we all really would be getting 99.9% open rates! If your numbers say one thing, there'll be hundreds of other tests that say the opposite.

    So your experience is just that, YOUR experience.

    Colm
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by colmodwyer View Post

      Where are you getting this from? My experience is the exact opposite...

      I've worked for a DM company that turned over about $2m, and I'm working for one now that does about $25m.

      In the mail, it's a lot easier for the bigger company to test more often (and we do every chance we get) because we mail in the hundreds of thousands, as opposed to only ten thousand or so.

      Again, where are you getting this from?

      We have a few heavy hitters writing for us and generally, the first things to test will be - In no particular order - envelope (teaser), lead and offer.

      Bottom line: you have to test always because few things about what we do is constant... otherwise we all really would be getting 99.9% open rates! If your numbers say one thing, there'll be hundreds of other tests that say the opposite.

      So your experience is just that, YOUR experience.

      Colm
      Colm,

      I am the founder of a marketing firm in Los Angeles-- One that originally started off with "small businesses" (about 4 years ago) and now has accounts ranging from bestselling authors (who you have on your bookshelf, no doubt) to Fortune 100 companies.

      From my experience, most marketing firms have no idea what the hell they are doing. They learned their "skills" in college 10 years ago or more, when half of it was wrong, and now almost all of it was wrong. Most of the stuff you learn in college is actually dead wrong when it comes to marketing and advertising-- Go ask a college professor how to write a sales letter.

      While it is great that you are working with a DM agency that moves 25 million, that is still a "very small agency" by a LONG shot. The majority of their clients are still on the "smaller end" of the spectrum. Those are still in the "small business" to "mid sized business" category. Small businesses are down to test, etc. because they have no real bureaucracy. The bigger a company gets, the more bureaucracy. The more chance the person working with you will lose their job and get reprimanded if the mailing is a failure, and get a raise or big bonus if the mailing is a success. They have to answer to lots of people.

      So when they think about testing, they thing "Oh, so about half of the mailers will do worse than the other half? What if the thing we test totally kills conversions... we will lose so much money. If that happens, we could have made an extra 1-5 million if we DIDNT test. Oh man. I have a wife and kids, I cant risk that."

      Plus, maybe YOU and your firm are down to test (as I am at my firm) because of the long term results. Maybe you are willing to convince the client to do the same. Most firms are not. Most firms prefer their accounts to be in "ignorant bliss." As long as the campaign works, dont mess with it, they say. "Dont teach the serfs to read." And its partially true. Clients find more faults when you test... "well, why did that one do so much better... Why didn't you know to use it from the start... Had we used THAT for the full mailing, we would have made 120% the sales. What the hell?"

      My point is that saying "Oh, big companies do this.... it MUST work!" is a fallacy that makes you seem a bit new (even though you are not). The majority of ad agencies are hacks-- both small and big. They dont want to test, and they wouldnt know how to if it bit them in the ass.

      90% of the commercials you see on TV are totally ineffective, yet agencies are getting paid millions to do them.

      Now then...

      Regarding teaser copy-- Which big name copywriters say the opposite?

      How about Gary Halbert:

      The Gary Halbert Letter

      John Carlton also says not to use teaser copy.

      Are you going to argue against Gary Halbert? John Carlton?

      And again-- How do you know you DONT have a 99% open rate? Do you and your firm call everyone you send it to and ask if they "got your letter and opened it?" No.

      You assume you don't have a high enough open rate because of your final conversions. Like I said, it is wishful thinking because it makes your sales letters seem more effective on paper.

      "Oh, we sent out 1000 letters and only got 2 sales? No no, it isn't a 2/10 % conversion rate... I bet only 100 people OPENED IT anyway! It's actually a 2% conversion rate... that is AMAZING!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post


        Now then...

        Regarding teaser copy-- Which big name copywriters say the opposite?

        How about Gary Halbert:

        The Gary Halbert Letter

        John Carlton also says not to use teaser copy.

        Are you going to argue against Gary Halbert? John Carlton?
        Wasn't it Halbert that also coined the notion of people standing over their trash can throwing out their mail?

        Wasn't that the point your were challenging in the OP? With all due respect, it seems you might be walking right into a contradiction in terms.

        I think the bottom line is, direct mail and direct marketing has been running for a good 100 years successfully...and that's a lot of testing. Techniques being used and refined today are often based on those tests.

        Sure, big firms might slip off the testing agenda, but that has nothing to do with the proven results that direct response guys have consistently gotten through direct mail.

        Everything is done for a reason. That reason is usually derived from a previous result.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Williams
          I know my wife opens even those credit card offers...then she stuffs all the junk mail back into those enclosed business reply envelopes and ships it back:confused: WTF.... What's Halbert have to say about that?
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

        Colm,

        I am the founder of a marketing firm in Los Angeles-- One that originally started off with "small businesses" (about 4 years ago) and now has accounts ranging from bestselling authors (who you have on your bookshelf, no doubt) to Fortune 100 companies.
        Ali, you might want to pay your hosting bill. It reflects poorly on your massive marketing firm.

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        • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          Ali, you might want to pay your hosting bill. It reflects poorly on your massive marketing firm.

          Account Suspended
          Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    I always hear people say...

    "People sort their mail over their trashcan!"

    I have no idea who started the whole "Oh yah, people throw almost all their mail in to the trashcan before opening it!" rumor, but it is definitely not true.
    Are you going to argue against Gary Halbert? John Carlton?
    D'oh!

    My point is that saying "Oh, big companies do this.... it MUST work!" is a fallacy
    Are you going to argue against Gary Halbert? John Carlton?
    Double D'oh!

    And again-- How do you know you DONT have a 99% open rate? Do you and your firm call everyone you send it to and ask if they "got your letter and opened it?" No.
    I have no idea what the open rate in the mail is and neither do you...

    You're being quite contradictory now, the point I am trying to get across is you TEST, regardless of what big companies or big name copywriters are doing. However whatever it is they are testing (like teaser copy on envelopes) and increasing response with, are probably things you should test too - to see for yourself.

    Because teaser copy doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it won't work for others... and so it's wrong for you to say that people who use it are wasting their time and vice-versa.

    Colm
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      I think you might be confused. Trust me, I know what Gary taught... Probably better than most people responding here do, actually.

      Go and read his Boron letter. Read exactly what he says. He doesnt say that people open letters over a trash-can. He says the B-pile is put aside for later on, forgotten, or thrown away.

      D'oh for you, I guess.

      Exactly-- you DON'T know the open rate for your letters. So saying that a mailing didn't do well because the "envelopes weren't opened" is bull. It didn't do well because you suck at copywriting ("you" being the person saying it, not necessarily you in particular).
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
        I actually sort my mail over a trashcan. I open maybe 10% of it. So that applies to me. And I buy a lot by mail, so I'm a good prospect - but perhaps I'm the exception.

        I've seen teaser copy work both ways - boost in response or a severe decrease in response. I am from the Dan Kennedy school of thought - either go all out, full blast teaser copy or make it look personal. No half stepping.

        For what it's worth all of the controls in "million dollar mailings" book by Denny Hatch had teaser copy on them. Who knows if they would've pulled better without them, but my guess is that most wouldn't.

        I've learned a TON from Halbert, but not everything he said was true. Or has remained true. In fact, just today I was reading over Ben Suarez seven steps to freedom and he was telling a story about a promotion he did that Halbert told him would never, ever work and that Ben was crazy and he never wanted tot alk to him any more. And that promotion was one of the most successful ones Ben ever did.

        So who knows.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Rickfold
    Gary Halbert is the one who said people sort their mails over their trashcan.

    so is everyone here
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by antipot View Post

      Gary Halbert is the one who said people sort their mails over their trashcan.

      so is everyone here
      Again, no-- He said people sort mail in to two different piles. Believe me.

      Or if you don't, check out the Boron Letter when he talks about it.

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Rickfold
    Again, no-- He said people sort mail in to two different piles. Believe me.
    ok, I'll believe you...

    you say you know Gary Halbert but you don't
    and no it isn't in that letter, but it kinda says it in that letter but you ignore it...
    you also ignore what everyone is saying here that they sort their mail over the trash can

    An important thing to remember about your mail is what the marketing legend Gary Halbert calls A pile mail, B pile mail and C pile mail. Most people sort their mail over a trash can and pieces that look like junk go straight into it. The rest of the mail is then sorted into "mail to open later", i.e. bills and mail that is to be opened immediately, ie a letter from your friend. It is your goal to at least get your mail opened and not trashed. You can’t get your message across if it never gets opened.
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    And if you have anything from him you'll probably see him say it directly

    I agree with you that the excuse of "people sort their mails over the trashcan" is bad if you're a bad copywriter. But the way you're trying to prove your point is misleading.

    This thread kinda gives me the impression that you just want attention. You have seen it here where everyone says they do sort mail over their trashcan but you ignore it. Well you can be right if you want to ignore everything, I don't really care, but you are misleading a lot of people in the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    Dan,

    How silly of me-- You're right.

    The primary sources that Gary himself wrote are nowhere near as reliable as a set of random websites with hearsay. Touche, you sly dog, you! I especially like how they mention the "C pile"... you know, the secret pile that Gary never even mentioned (Like Plato's unwritten doctrines, I guess!)

    When Gary writes that people split mail into two piles, A and B, with the A pile opened immediately and the B pile possibly opened later, possibly forgotten about, and possibly thrown away, he means that people open mail while standing over a trashcan and chuck the B pile in to it.

    So, you're right-- my mistake for the confusion. You caught me!!!

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Rickfold
    I caught you!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Halbert actually said what you are saying he "meant" - so no need to explain his words. He did it so well himself.

      "Most of the people in America sort their mail while standing over a waste basket".

      You said "PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE OPENS ALL OF THEIR MAIL"

      He also considered a10% response rate very high for DR mailings. You say you have a 65-90% response rate. Could it be we're not talking about standard DM to a list that has not been primed?

      Gary also said: use real stamps, don't use labels, remove your company name from the envelope corner, get rid of teaser copy on the envelope and print the word "rush" in red and don't have your brochure visible when the envelope is opened.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Rickfold
    The Gary Halbert Letter


    So true. Anyway, remember how I am incessantly preaching the people of America sort through their mail while standing over a wastebasket? You do remember? Good. Now, here is something else for you to keep in mind:


    And that's on his site.

    Here it is again
    The Gary Halbert Letter

    Here is something I want to burn into your mind. I want you to remember it and remember it well. I also want you to remember that it was me, Sir Gary of Halbert, who first told you that...
    Most Of The People
    In America Sort
    Through Their Mail
    While Standing Over
    A Waste Basket
    !
    I highlighted it for you just in case you don't see it well
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  • Profile picture of the author Omar Khafagy
    How To Know You're Probably A Very Crappy Copywriter

    Hint #0416:
    Try to convince a large number of people to buy into what you're saying without providing an ounce of proof beyond your own experience.

    How To Know You're Failing At Your Attempt To Sound Experienced

    See above.
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by Omar Khafagy View Post

      How To Know You're Probably A Very Crappy Copywriter

      Hint #0416:
      Try to convince a large number of people to buy into what you're saying without providing an ounce of proof beyond your own experience.

      How To Know You're Failing At Your Attempt To Sound Experienced

      See above.
      Fun fact: As I mentioned earlier, 80-90/65-80 in terms of response.

      Want to know why I don't bother with proof, make a bunch of screen shots or post a bunch of random crap?

      1) I am not selling anything, nor do I plan on it-- my reputation as someone who "knows whats up" among most of the "internet marketing community" is irrelevant to me (Do you see a sig file with a link to a site, or a WSO I am trying to get people to bandwagon on?). I don't mastermind on the warrior forums... I mastermind with the people you buy products from constantly hoping to "make it."

      2) If I DID make any posts with screenshots and step-by-step instructions, it would be in the War Room. The people who actually read and post in there are much more likely to use it, per capita.

      Thanks for your attempt at being factious-- I'm sure you'll go far.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

        Fun fact: As I mentioned earlier, 80-90/65-80 in terms of response.
        So you say, yes.

        I'm not saying you're full of BS... just saying that if you make bold, nigh-unbelievable claims you need to back 'em up.

        I don't know Omar well, but I know he knows his stuff DR-wise. So do I.. and so do many other people here.

        And if you were getting those kind of numbers on a massive mailing you'd had Carlton and Makepeace breaking down your door begging for your secrets.

        So either it's a small, VERY targeted mailing and you're leading people to believe it's bigger than it is...

        ...or you're just making stuff up.

        Those are the only logical conclusions my mind can draw from this discussion.

        Sure... you can turn around and say you're not going to share your secrets with us or whatever... but then why bring it up?

        There's a lot of stuff here that doesn't add up, one way or another.

        -Dan
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        • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
          Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

          So you say, yes.

          I'm not saying you're full of BS... just saying that if you make bold, nigh-unbelievable claims you need to back 'em up.

          I don't know Omar well, but I know he knows his stuff DR-wise. So do I.. and so do many other people here.

          And if you were getting those kind of numbers on a massive mailing you'd had Carlton and Makepeace breaking down your door begging for your secrets.

          So either it's a small, VERY targeted mailing and you're leading people to believe it's bigger than it is...

          ...or you're just making stuff up.

          Those are the only logical conclusions my mind can draw from this discussion.

          Sure... you can turn around and say you're not going to share your secrets with us or whatever... but then why bring it up?

          There's a lot of stuff here that doesn't add up, one way or another.

          -Dan
          I think it's pretty certain that I am not mass mailing it-- mainly because I said I wasn't when I mentioned it the first time... So I guess I'm not leading people to believe it is "bigger than it is" either. ;-)

          It isn't even really a "targeted" mailing. Very broad.

          It is a three part mailer, which I think I mentioned (though I can't be sure-- not being obnoxious, that is a sincere statement).

          I am a big fan about multiple part mailers. With standard one-piece mailings you have to try to get into the heads of your clients to figure out exactly what their "hot buttons" are and build rapport with them in one letter-- one sitting. This is possible, but it is nowhere near as effective as CREATING the hot buttons with previous mailers and building their interest. Plus, with multiple mailings, you are in a "conversation"... and you build rapport.

          Saying it is "nigh-unbelievable" to get a minimum of 6.5 people to buy your crap is stupid.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Originally Posted by Omar Khafagy View Post

    How To Know You're Probably A Very Crappy Copywriter

    Hint #0416:
    Try to convince a large number of people to buy into what you're saying without providing an ounce of proof beyond your own experience.

    How To Know You're Failing At Your Attempt To Sound Experienced

    See above.
    OK, anyone want some of mine? Shotgun the comfy centre row seat!

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  • Nick - pass it this way! 2 rows down and to your left, eating the Junior Mints.

    Amusing thread. The only evidence presented EITHER way thus far has been what Gary Halbert *said* - no real test results of anything, ever.

    Silly rabbit...
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  • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
    What to choose. Oh well, it really doesn't matter so here goes.

    ONE of the problems with the whole Copywriting BIZ-OP field is this; the teachers and gurus have to use their "experience" to back up their claims to get cash paying students. Nothing wrong with that...the problem, it is almost always ancedotal. And, what worked for Joe Karbo failed miserably for Joe Sugarman, et al.

    In other words, there are very few tested and proven, backed by "across the board" tested and proven results which provide industry wide RULES. I don't doubt the OP and his success. There are scores of similar stories and each of the principles involved would have their version of "what worked" and what is the truth.

    One of the worst things to happen to a copywriter is to have some SUCCESS. Especially if it comes early in his career. Why? Because they think they have the magic Midas touch. Creating winning promotions and writing response pulling copy is not as easy as the courses make it out to be. We hear about the winners and all the moolah and fungolas the winners make, but we don't get to peek inside of the losers.

    So these discussions almost always come down to the ancedotal 'MY EXPERIENCE says this to be the truth- (pissing contests)' type exchanges.

    What is the truth? Can I hear Jack Nicholson in the background?

    The truth is pretty simple. It is numeric. The OP made a sweeping statement. He believes it to be a fact. And then the show began.

    Does it really matter who said what about sorting mail over a waste baske? And Gary did say both things. Two piles/over the trash can...and that IS a fact. Does it matter for the copywriter wanting to break into the direct response field?

    Here is the TRUTH. Write a promotion that gets sales at a predetermined rate and you'll have some success in some industries with some products.

    And sometimes, it doesn't matter one iota what is or is not on the envelope. Young would be copywriters mining for gold in the direct response industry...for you:

    Write what sells products.

    Test. Write something that sells ONE product. Test. KNOW the numbers going into the promotion, it is more about the math than it is about your copy. IF you can beat the numbers, you'll have a lifetime of opportunity and chances to pocket the cashola.

    I loved Gary Halbert, but, he had way more failures than he had successes, so even in the case of a top of the mountain copywriter, it was as much ancedotal as it was "science" or rules. Gary violated his own 'rules' he taught as much as he followed them.

    Relevant? Doesn't matter does it?

    gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    IMHO... copywriting is more an art than a science.

    Some of the biggest promotions come out of "dumb" ideas... ideas that a lot of us would scoff at.

    I'm fortunate enough to be able to talk with guys like Vin Montello... David Raybould... and Rick Duris.

    Guys who have massive, industry-altering successes under their belt.

    And one thing I've learned is that you can NEVER pick a winner for certain.

    Even Schwab says it's a lot easier to figure out what DOESN'T work than it is to figure out what DOES.

    Testing is important... but everything we do is really an educated guess at best.

    Some guys talk about test results like they're scientific... they're not. They're circumstantial, anecdotal evidence... which is still useful.

    Until you start thinking they're infallible gospel.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post




      Testing is important... but everything we do is really an educated guess at best.

      Some guys talk about test results like they're scientific... they're not. They're circumstantial, anecdotal evidence... which is still useful.



      -Dan
      Dan, I get what you are saying and agree in the general, but I have to take issue with "test results" not being scientific.

      IMHO it isn't a true test unless you have some results to test against. BUT, there are those who go ahead and "test" to find out if a market exists, test to see what a given response rate could be on a new promotion or test an unproven ad.

      In these instances, you are mostly right. It is an educated guess. BUT, once results are in, it becomes very scientific. You have a measurement. You can then test against this measurment. You can work with numbers and figures. You can look at costs, expenses and overhead.

      Everything gets measured. Analyzed. That is the scientific part of it. That is what makes direct response as the OP pointed to so incredible, the ability to measure results.

      TESTING is the back bone of the DR industry and there is a lot of data to analyze and it has nothing to do with being ancedotal or circumstantial. They are very black and white, this worked and this didn't. It is what makes the industry so lucrative for a copywriter who can produce results which are MEASURED. We may be on the same page in general but testing is very important and is very scientific.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    gjabiz,

    Let me elaborate...

    Sure... you can say letter A pulled better than letter B.

    And that's usually accurate (though not always).

    But as to knowing WHY letter A pulled better than letter B... that's the difficult part.

    I know there's multi-variate testing etc... but none of it is scientific.

    In any scientific study... every variable except one is tightly controlled.

    We can't do that in copy.

    Every mailing is getting different people at different times and in different states.

    Unless you can go back in time and mail the same people a different letter... your results are compromised.

    Does this mean testing is useless? Hell no. Testing is important.

    But it's not exact... therefore it is an educated guess.

    Hence the "15%" rule Schwab preaches.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      gjabiz,

      Let me elaborate...

      Sure... you can say letter A pulled better than letter B.

      And that's usually accurate (though not always).

      But as to knowing WHY letter A pulled better than letter B... that's the difficult part.

      I know there's multi-variate testing etc... but none of it is scientific.

      In any scientific study... every variable except one is tightly controlled.

      We can't do that in copy.

      Every mailing is getting different people at different times and in different states.

      Unless you can go back in time and mail the same people a different letter... your results are compromised.

      Does this mean testing is useless? Hell no. Testing is important.

      But it's not exact... therefore it is an educated guess.

      Hence the "15%" rule Schwab preaches.

      -Dan
      How is testing important? What do you get from the test? I don't know what the 15% rule that Schwab preaches is, could you elaborate on that?

      I'm just not following this. Could you explain please. It appears you are saying we can't test copy because every variable but one has to be the same, right? Isn't that what they do in testing copy?

      So what are the tests good for as it pertains to copywriting? Please elucidate me.

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    gjabiz,

    The Schwab rule is in his book. Basically he says that because of the "unforeseen variables" like time of day, mood, weather, etc etc etc - the exact same mailing can give a difference in response of 15%.

    (Not 1% to 16% - 1 % to 1.15%.)

    The point is testing is never 100% accurate... though it can still be useful.

    What I'm trying to get at is that some people become prisoners of their previous results.

    Scientifically speaking, the larger the mailing, the more accurate the results. And the bigger the result difference, the better.

    But just because something worked for one campaign doesn't make it gospel.

    Markets change... evolve... and move.

    What worked yesterday may not work today... at least not as well.

    Putting all that aside... even if you COULD know that a test's results WERE accurate... you still only have the results.

    You don't know *why* those results occurred.

    Without this knowledge, it's difficult to translate to other markets... or other offers.

    So at the end of the day, all we're left with is theories and experience.

    As I've said... those are still incredibly useful. There's a reason I read marketing and copywriting studies... pull apart successful ads... and learn from guys who've been doing this longer than I have.

    So that's what I mean when I say a split test isn't scientific. There are too many uncontrolled variables.

    Still worth doing them? Definitely.

    But at the end of the day... it's up to you how you interpret those results - and how you interpret the changes that caused those results.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post


      gjabiz,


      The point is testing is never 100% accurate... though it can still be useful.


      Putting all that aside... even if you COULD know that a test's results WERE accurate... you still only have the results.

      You don't know *why* those results occurred.

      Without this knowledge, it's difficult to translate to other markets... or other offers.

      As I've said... those are still incredibly useful. There's a reason I read marketing and copywriting studies... pull apart successful ads... and learn from guys who've been doing this longer than I have.

      So that's what I mean when I say a split test isn't scientific. There are too many uncontrolled variables.

      Still worth doing them? Definitely.

      But at the end of the day... it's up to you how you interpret those results - and how you interpret the changes that caused those results.

      -Dan
      Dan,

      You say testing is USEFUL. For what? What do you use your test results for exactly?

      I don't know what your experiences are but mine have been this: TESTING is for one given product, not for a general "rule" that can be applied to other areas. I've never seen someone TEST to get results for other markets or other offers, I have NO idea how this is even done. Maybe you can share?

      You say it is still worth doing them Definitely. But why? If all the test results you get have to be interpretted by your experience.

      I'm just trying to understand WHY bother testing if you don't get some black and white, this works and this doesn't type of results? Why waste time and money? What EXACTLY do you find testing useful for?

      gjabiz
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    gjabiz,

    Every good copywriter I know steals things from other markets if they think it'll fit their own.

    It's what started the wave of video sales letters, for example. It started off in the IM market (I think?) and now is used in weight loss... forex... probably everything.

    Plus... when you figure out WHAT to test... how to improve... you're guessing.

    Guessing right comes from experience and developing that gut instinct.

    Anyone can change some stuff around and see it if does or doesn't convert better.

    What makes a direct response PROFESSIONAL if the theories behind why something might work... the ability to use that intuition to improve a piece and make it convert BETTER.

    And part of that intuition and experience is using other letters... and other tests... to help develop your own findings.

    The whole point I'm getting at is people go "Oh wow, this letter did really well, and here's why". They don't know why. They're guessing.

    They then present this as a proven fact when it's not.

    Like I said... the A/B result is scientific, yes. But the WHY is not... and that's why helps us become better copywriters.

    Dig?

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
      To sort of push this back on track. The OP made a statement about how most of us have it all wrong about the mail we get and can hold in our hand. He says it gets opened and does not believe people sort their mail over the trash can...and the gates opened and all the opinions came flying out.

      Is there a right and a wrong? From a copywriters view, I want my mail to be opened and read. AND responded to.

      The ensuing debate raged over what Gary Halbert said or didn't say, and we all tossed in our ancedotal messages, "I do sort over trash can"..."I don't"

      At issue is what is the truth about writing copy for direct response mailings.

      Does a teaser get the enveloped open? Does lumpy mail work? Why does the OP think the information regarding the sorting of mail is wrong based on his experience.

      Truthfully, I'm not sure what you are saying. I don't "dig" it all. I just don't get it. Sorry.

      You're talking about (I think, I'm only guessing here) about "swiping" copy or elements that work.

      My post was about the TRUTH of copy in the direct response fields, and that truth is, what works is what works. But what works is TESTED and it is tested SCIENTIFICALLY to increase response rates, increase profits or to keep improving results in some way.

      Maybe we should just agree to disagree at this point. I don't get what you are saying, in one post you say testing isn't accurate BUT it is a good thing to do. I ask WHY? And still I don't have an answer.

      Why test? I know why I would test and what I would test and it would return SCIENTIFIC information to be used to improve the results. I would KNOW if the teaser copy worked or if it didn't work based upon the industry standards, which take the variables into as much account as they need be.

      I'm not wanting to argue with you Dan, I asked for some clarity on your position on testing. I haven't gotten any. And I really don't 'DIG' what you are trying to say.

      I'll stand by my assertion that TESTING is important to copywriters to give them a better chance of improving results of their copy. OK?

      gjabiz






      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      gjabiz,

      Every good copywriter I know steals things from other markets if they think it'll fit their own.

      It's what started the wave of video sales letters, for example. It started off in the IM market (I think?) and now is used in weight loss... forex... probably everything.

      Plus... when you figure out WHAT to test... how to improve... you're guessing.

      Guessing right comes from experience and developing that gut instinct.

      Anyone can change some stuff around and see it if does or doesn't convert better.

      What makes a direct response PROFESSIONAL if the theories behind why something might work... the ability to use that intuition to improve a piece and make it convert BETTER.

      And part of that intuition and experience is using other letters... and other tests... to help develop your own findings.

      The whole point I'm getting at is people go "Oh wow, this letter did really well, and here's why". They don't know why. They're guessing.

      They then present this as a proven fact when it's not.

      Like I said... the A/B result is scientific, yes. But the WHY is not... and that's why helps us become better copywriters.

      Dig?

      -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    If everyone is up for it, let me please clarify my OP--

    Everyone goes on and on about how people "sort mail over a trashcan." They imply that people go willy-nilly tossing letters into the trash without opening it.

    Unless an envelope is OBVIOUSLY junk, people will not toss it without at least OPENING IT AND SKIMMING first.

    Even if it is junk, most people do open it and do a quick "let's be sure..." look over.

    Can you honestly say that if you get a letter in the mail that has an indicia on it instead of a stamp, you will toss it straight in the trash without opening it? Heck no.

    Or if it is addressed from a person you do not know-- will you just toss it? Not at all.

    What if it has a label on it instead of a handwritten address? Do you immediately throw it away because it is not handwritten? No.

    So, when a person does things like-- I don't know... Printing (poorly, I might add) a handwritten address (that upon a slightly closer inspection is obviously printed), or stamps "CONFIDENTIAL!" all over the envelope, or makes it seem in some way "more personal or more important" than it actually is, it is a breach of trust with the person who opened the letter.

    They were expecting a letter from a friend, or something "confidential," and all they got was your pitch for some widget.

    Instead of spending all of that time B.S.ing your prospect and pissing them off, maybe look over your SALES LETTER once more.

    It's like saying "Oh, what the used car salesman SAYS isn't anywhere near as important as whether he has a flag pin on his lapel or not!"

    No. It is. It is much more important-- the flag pin makes little to no difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Omar Khafagy
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      If everyone is up for it, let me please clarify my OP--

      Everyone goes on and on about how people "sort mail over a trashcan." They imply that people go willy-nilly tossing letters into the trash without opening it.

      Unless an envelope is OBVIOUSLY junk, people will not toss it without at least OPENING IT AND SKIMMING first.
      WHICH people? I don't care that you're not selling something, dude. If you're going to say something, back it up. Which market? Which gender? Which... something! Anything! Give me some kind of information.

      And while you're at it, please define "obviously" junk.

      Your generalities are what make you such an unreliable source. I don't care one bit that you "don't have a signature" or "don't know what's up in the IM community". I don't either, because the best books I have ever read on copywriting were written before I was born.

      Even if it is junk, most people do open it and do a quick "let's be sure..." look over.

      Can you honestly say that if you get a letter in the mail that has an indicia on it instead of a stamp, you will toss it straight in the trash without opening it? Heck no.
      Uh, heck yes. I do it routinely. Know why? Because I get one of three things in my mail that I care about: bills, cheques and subscriptions. And fewer bills and cheques, since many of my bills are accessible online and many of the payments made to me are either wired or made via paypal.

      When I open my mailbox, I know damn well what I'm expecting to see. The stuff that doesn't match that almost instantly goes into my recycling bin.

      In fact, the stuff that DOESN'T are usually things that state their appeal directly on the outside, with a headline related to something I'm interested in.

      That's just getting a good list, knowing your market, and knowing the appeal. Hm, sounds like what a great many copywriters have described as pretty damn important, doesn't it?

      What if it has a label on it instead of a handwritten address? Do you immediately throw it away because it is not handwritten? No.
      Here, I'll agree with you. My reasoning is that I never get mail with a handwritten address on it. I haven't gotten mail like that since I was a kid, and used to receive birthday cards.

      I expect to see printed labels, and when I don't, I instantly suspect that it's junkmail, and into the blue box it goes.

      Does that go without saying for all niches and markets? Nope. Which is why, if you're trying to send out a mailer, it helps to look around in your market and see what others are doing... and how long they've been doing it for. The longer the control sticks around, the more likely that it is a good starting point for you.

      So, when a person does things like-- I don't know... Printing (poorly, I might add) a handwritten address (that upon a slightly closer inspection is obviously printed), or stamps "CONFIDENTIAL!" all over the envelope, or makes it seem in some way "more personal or more important" than it actually is, it is a breach of trust with the person who opened the letter.

      They were expecting a letter from a friend, or something "confidential," and all they got was your pitch for some widget.

      Instead of spending all of that time B.S.ing your prospect and pissing them off, maybe look over your SALES LETTER once more.
      Again, I can agree with you here... you don't want to piss off your potential customers with a bait-and-switch.

      Flashy mailers are no substitute for GOOD copy.

      It's like those flash banners that say "THIS IS FOR REAL! YOU'VE WON A CONTEST!" We know we didn't win a contest. We know that that's bull****. So we also won't click on it.

      But here's the thing... if anyone has been doing advertising for at least one year and still haven't figured out that baiting and switching is a good way to piss people off... then one of two things is happening:

      1. You have been testing carefully and have reached the conclusion that, while you lose people on your list, or agitate some of them, those people weren't buyers in the first place. The ones who WERE buyers, bought more, and so the bait-and-switch tactic is worthwhile. For YOU and YOUR market.

      2. You haven't tested a damn thing and are still just "playing".

      For most people it's the latter.

      Anyway Mouse, I don't understand what the point of your post was to begin with. You say you're not here to sell anything, but I never asked you to sell me anything. I also never asked for step-by-step instructions. I just asked you to back up what was an unsubstantiated post based purely on opinion.

      You'll find renowned copywriters outside of the Internet Marketing niche who gladly offer free information on their blogs, and while they're selling services and products (and making millions of dollars doing I might add) their free material is absolutely golden.

      For example, Clayton Makepeace's website The Total Package is practically bubbling over with useful information from copywriters who work with clients outside of the IM niche. The blog posts even provide proof for what they're saying.

      And Copywriting and Content Marketing Strategies | Copyblogger is pretty much dedicated to giving away high quality information for free.

      And let's not forget one of my favorite little-referenced sites: Info Marketing Blog | Direct Response Marketing | Copywriting

      That site's got great swipe material and terrific interviews... and it's all free.

      You'll also find on this forum a bevy of professionals who occasionally stop by to offer a word of advice or burn a few minutes in between salesletters and projects. Some of them have been copywriters or otherwise involved in advertising for well over 20 years.

      Anyway dude, you had some valid things to point out, I just think you could have gone about it more effectively, and added more value in the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
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    "Nobody knows anything" - screenwriter William Goldman strongly believed that, prior to a movie's release, Hollywood has no real idea how well a film will do.

    (Goldman wrote a lot of great movie scripts including "Marathon Man" and won two Academy Awards for the screenplays "Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid" and "All The President's Men" - with the memorable line "Follow the money".)

    Perhaps none of us has a real idea of how well a salespage or a Direct Response mailer will do.
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    P.S- Happy birthday to me!
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert_Rand
      I sort my mail over the trash can... And I know a lot of other people do as well...

      Do you want PROOF Mr. M&M??? Go to the post office and see what most people do after they get their mail from their P.O Box...

      Also... the highest open rates anyone is gonna get is a handwritten envelope with a real live stamp... That or fedex/ups
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